• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala And Sukhbir Singh Discussion On Dasam Granth At Sur Sagar TV

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,708
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Sikh Panth MUST discuss....and reach a concensus. This is a good effort at disseminating information from BOTH sides..Readers can make informed decisions. Should have more of these.:happysingh::happy:
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,690
5,245
SPN
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

My first impression of the interview:

The host of the show, to his credit, did a good job of maintaining a fair discussion environment.

The low point of the discussion was when Sukhbir Singh resorted to hate filled personal comments on G.S.Jeonvala like "you are a mere a truck driver, so you are nothing, you can never be a sikh scholar" and treating him as if he was a lower caste person in front of a bahman... Sukhbir Singh also tried to belittle him by his humorous dialogue delivery with adjectives like "leave it, you wont understand", "leave it its beyond a person like you" and etc etc endlessly...

So, what Sukhbir Singh was basically trying to push or establish was that, what all those dead so called Sant Babae believed blindly and preached their ignorance to their next generation of illiterate/uneducated pupils over the years becomes engraved on the stone and what contemporary Sikh scholars with better research facilities, education and understanding stand no chance to challenge these so called Sant Babae!

To his credit, G.S. Jeonvala, who had more than three Dasam Granthis confronting him from all angles, was not at all intimidated by cheap tactics used by his challengers to present him in low light.

Such rounds of discussions should be held more frequently and as openly as this show managed to do... and there is a need to do a page by page debate of whole Dasam Granth and cross examine the morals it lays for humanity against the Gurmat values and principles laid down in SGGS...

Gurfateh!
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

My impression of the interview:



The low point of the discussion was when Sukhbir Singh resorted to hate filled personal comments on G.S.Jeonvala like "you are a mere a truck driver, so you are nothing, you can never be a sikh scholar" and treating him as if he was a lower caste person in front of a bahman... Sukhbir Singh also tried to belittle him by his humorous dialogue delivery with adjectives like "leave it, you wont understand", "leave it its beyond a person like you" and etc etc endlessly...

So, what Sukhbir Singh was basically trying to push or establish was that, what all those dead so called Sant Babae believed blindly and preached their ignorance to their next generation of illiterate/uneducated pupils over the years becomes engraved on the stone and what contemporary Sikh scholars with better research facilities, education and understanding stand no chance to challenge these so called Sant Babae!



The debate on usage of English words in Dasam Granth reached humorous proportions when Sukhbir Singh tried to prove that English words like fuc.k have also been used in SGGS also... however he failed to prove his allegations miserably... this is where lack of education whether basic or Gurmat become pivotal.



Gurfateh!

Thank you for ending with Gurfateh!

Aman ji

We have seen this very same tactic used here in relation to a critique of a section of Dasam Granth. The the notion that Vishnu was very creative with his ear wax was discussed.

The author was tarred with the ignorant and uneducated "truck driver" charge. And -- it was revealed that the "truck driver" took up driving a truck because he makes more money that way. The fact is he is more educated than most of his opponents. And maybe even better off.

The use of low, foul-mouth, dirty, and even threatening language to silence opponents has a tendency - in the end - to sour most listeners. Except of course the low, foul-mouth,dirty and threatening types. There is an essay of more than 5000 thousand words on this aspect of the Dasam Granth controversy alone.

P/S We can recall that Guru Nanak himself was educated. But ended his life as a missionary and a farmer. :)
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,950
55
United Kingdom
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

I must say this is why I love SPN. It presents all viewpoints in an unbiased manner.:happy:

Compare this to the hate-filled and biased coverage at panthic.org

Panthic.org

I think panthic.org are rapidly turning into the Taliban of Sikhism! :(
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

I must say this is why I love SPN. It presents all viewpoints in an unbiased manner.:happy:

Compare this to the hate-filled and biased coverage at panthic.org

Panthic.org

I think panthic.org are rapidly turning into the Taliban of Sikhism! :(

Randip ji

The "panthic" forums are already proclaiming a victory for the Dasam Granth proponents. In their coverage the rock bottom language of their representatives is not even mentioned. We are looking at wholesale degeneration of religious discourse.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,950
55
United Kingdom
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

well I got to 5 and this seems like a good debate?

Why has Sukhbir Singh got "Lurch" standing next to him. He seems a capable enough debater in his own right.

I think Gurcharan Singh seems to have more knowledge of the history.

I think you are right about the jibes Aman Singh ji, wholly unnecessary.

My opinion, as has always been, whether you believe in or do not believe in Dasam Granth, it does not matter. I have always seen Dasam Granth as an appendix, or an insight into the Hindu mind of that era.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,950
55
United Kingdom
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Randip ji

The "panthic" forums are already proclaiming a victory for the Dasam Granth proponents. In their coverage the rock bottom language of their representatives is not even mentioned. We are looking at wholesale degeneration of religious discourse.

Any person like me, who has no opinion either way can see it is no way a victory for the Dasam Granth proponents. Infact it leaves more questions to be asked. They cannot seem to answer some of the conclusions of Rattan Singh Jaggi. I really wish they would instead of coming out with "clever" quips. I really find that annoying and Sukhbir Singh let himself down in this respect. Shame really because he seems intelligent.
 
Feb 8, 2010
17
4
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Voices were raised etc.. but its better that than the usual fighting in gurdwara, maybe eventualy they will be calmer debates in future. Dasam granth cannot be debated in a hr or 2 hr live talk show. I think if there is more debates it should be conducted like the one that some singh from tapoban done with ghagga.

I found it funny how kaal kaal or sumink was proof that jaap sahib came from some hindu texts lol

all in all it was informative for me

****** kavta was out of taste though i dont think any of the tapoban singhs anticts were as low as that. Specially when it seemed from where i was watching jeonawala's research wasnt all that good
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Ghostface Killah ji

Assuming that I understand your various points correctly. We may agree in one way.Tapoban has in the past, in their forum, hosted some very educational debates regarding the authenticity of Dasam Granth -- including very detailed analyses of handwriting and style of writing, which is relevant to questions of authenticity.

I am wondering however if this debate was a re-hash of a similar internet forum debate from about 2 years ago. If it is, the scholarship regarding Dasam Granth extends far beyond those more technical issues. And it extends into more recent issues.

Why tapoban would deem it scholarly to be rude only matches up with the sad rhetoric of the moment.
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,690
5,245
SPN
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Well, the persistence with which Tapoban Singhs teased him through out the discussion with personal comments and slurs finally may have caught up with him. He did apologize for that though.

Now, that you have pointed, how would we interpret the word "Kanj.er Kavita" in the context of Charitopakhyan? In plain English it means "Pornographic Poetry"! Certainly Charitopakhyan is not a Spiritual Poetry, then how should we classify these writings in a decent way?

Sukhbir Singh did made one interesting observation while quoting this shabad from SGGS ji ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥ SGGS, Panna 616 and said that it is the English word Fuc.k (Fakaeh in Gurumukhi)! Prof Sahib Singh Tikka as well as Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha Mahan Kosh indeed mention that the meaning of this word as like "having sexual intercourse..."

However, it is interesting to note that during the times of Guru Arjan Sahib, Who is The Author of the above mentioned Shabad, there was no English colonizers putting up in India certainly in Northern India. The origin of word "Fakeah" certainly needs to be studied from the other prevalent languages with reference from third party resources like Persian, Arbic etc.

On the topic of Kaal kaal or sumink in Jaap Sahib, i am not sure, if there was sufficient time to go deep into that part of the discussion. The second round of discussion, if ever happens, would be quite interesting.

Gurfateh!
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

At first "blush" it looks as if they are "loan words" with language A borrowing from language B.

Question for me was are the two words "cognates" having a common linguistic parent.

Turns out that on a check of Sanskrit dictionaries neither word matches with a dozen or so Sanskrit words that pertain to "sexual intercourse."

The origins of F**K are unclear. Are we sure that the origins of Fakeah are not Persian?

Four-letter word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will stay on the trail of this one. The significance of this one point, however, seems blown way out of proportion to its place in the larger number of issues. Even McLeod and his students were not persuaded that Dasam Pita wrote chapters of Dasam Granth on the basis of this kind of evidence.

What the Dasam Granth controversy needs is a a systematic review much like that authoed by Professor Sahib Singh ji in his analysis of the compilation of the Aad Granth. This is what SGPC should have set itself to in 2007 -- and instead let grass grow while pursuing political favor with sant samaj.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

In classical Sanskirt there may be many different words for the same English word as the Sanskrit word is going to be context dependent, and it will add syllables (agglutinate) in order to capture context and special usage.

Here we go for "sexual intercourse" in Sanskrit. You have to go through the entire thing. Not a quickie :)o) to read.
sexual intercourse - A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary
 
Jan 30, 2010
223
171
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Correct me if Im wrong ,I have noticed a number of audio disturbances(rather audio stopped).
Could this have been done deliberately by panthic.org to mislead ?

Im sorry if Im trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill but such switching off the audio could change the nature and meaning of the debate.

At one place I noticed the audio was switched off at some date .

As regards such debates I think this is the right way to participate in the debate till the end rather than walk off in between like "Mahapurkh" Hari Singh Randhawa walked away in some Gurdwara in NY.

But this is the right way instead of getting at each other's necks physically.

Sukhbir Singh is repeatedly saying Gurcharan Singh knows nothing and there is no use talking to him.This approach is wrong and shows hankaar and some internal krodh.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Correct me if Im wrong ,I have noticed a number of audio disturbances(rather audio stopped).
Could this have been done deliberately by panthic.org to mislead ?

Im sorry if Im trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill but such switching off the audio could change the nature and meaning of the debate.

At one place I noticed the audio was switched off at some date .

As regards such debates I think this is the right way to participate in the debate till the end rather than walk off in between like "Mahapurkh" Hari Singh Randhawa walked away in some Gurdwara in NY.

But this is the right way instead of getting at each other's necks physically.

Sukhbir Singh is repeatedly saying Gurcharan Singh knows nothing and there is no use talking to him.This approach is wrong and shows hankaar and some internal krodh.

Yes -- and I for one think that this discussion of "Fakeah" is a red herring. Designed to get the debate on a road to nowhere.
 
Jan 30, 2010
223
171
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Sukhbir Singh was calling Gurcharan Singh an RSS agent .

But when Gurcharan Singh mentioned the names of already alive Sikhs like Dhumma,Lamba etc on RSS website as it's members and that such people had not gotten their names deleted if they were not members of RSS,Sukhbir Singh got agitated and mentioned certain names of Singhs who are no longer with us saying show me those names on the RSS website.

He was quoting Sant Bhindranwale and Babbar Singhs as if they belong to him only.

Some Babbar Singhs of UK and Germany are already against Dhumma and the Saadh laana then how he claims they are with him ?

We all respect Sant Bhindranwale who you used to say "Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji daa oat aasraa lei kay ....."

The bottom line is whatever Dasam Granth is ,the saadh laana should read it at home instead of bringing it to the Gurdwaras.
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
2,950
55
United Kingdom
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

I found it funny how kaal kaal or sumink was proof that jaap sahib came from some hindu texts lol

Actually the Kaal point is a very important one.

In th opening of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji God is described as Akaal or Timeless.

In Dasam Granth God is described as Kaal, or Time itself.

Akaal being Infinite and Kaal being finite. Very very different concepts.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,708
14,381
75
KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Gurbani was NOT written for the "super intellectuals"..it is for the COMMON MAN. This fake argument is also used by the Saadh Tola for ignoring Gurbani and singing KACHI DHAARNA double liners in their Diwans..they say Gurbani is TOO DIFFICULT for the common man..so we have to sing JINGLES and pass the time..

Jeeonwala may be a mere truck driver, not a super duper PHD like soem of those at University level in Punjab..BUT then Is it the contention that DG is ONLY for super Duper PHds...that would exclude 99.9% of us...

The summary dismissal of body language, signs of dismissal. derogatory words like..he is agyaani...agyaanta....he cant understand..he is a simple (fool - meant but not said)..etc..failed to IMPRESS. it showed the low level of the debater.

Jeeonwala handled it all very well alone.
 
Jan 30, 2010
223
171
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Sukhbir Singh failed to or "deliberately"skipped the part on the "Pandit and Mahakaal ka Sikh".

His attempt to hold the patent(sorry for using that word)of the Khalistan movement,Kharkoo movement,Sant Bhindrawale is not only misleading but highly deplorable.

If we listen to Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale's speeches properly he has clearly mentioned the difference between "Kaalies" and "Akaalies".He said "Kaalies" are those Sikhs who visit the Gurdwara as well as the mandirs whereas "Akaalies" are those who believe only in one Akaal Purkh.

The Saadh laana knows that if the whole Sikh sangat refuses to bow before any other except the Guru Granth Sahib their "dukaans" will close and only "dukaandaars" will be left.Their bread and butter is based on these "dukaans" and other karamkaands which they do in these so called Sikh deras.They also know if true Sikhs win the SGPC elections the first thing that will happen is that all deras (Sikh and non Sikh) will be closed in Punjab ,that is why now the nangs(nihangs) and saadh laana is thinking of participating in SGPC elections.

Here is a small list of "contribution" of the nangs(nihangs) and saadh laana towards the Sikh struggle or Khalistan movement :

1)One Mahakaal daa Sikh was nang Ajit poohla,a well known police cat who is responsible for killing an unkown number of Singhs including the whole family of Bhai Balwinder Singh Jattaana Babbar including one physically handicapped girl with the help of Punjab police SSP Saini .Now Saini has been made head Punjab vigilence by Prakash Badal.Saini also attended Poohla's funeral.
There were attacks on Saini a number of times and the Singhs who attacked him have either been killed in fake encounters or are in Tihar jail.

2)The head of the saadh laana Harnam Singh Dhumma who claims to be successor of Sant Bhindranwale is the same person who was earlier in California,USA but was suddenly bought to Punjab for some reasons which are now becoming apparent .Dhumma is the same person who gave milk to the butchers of Sikhs KP Gill at Chowk Mehta.In fact it is Dhumma and some other similar claimers of Damdami Taksal who have stabbed the Sikhs on the back and are trying to undo whatever Sant Bhindranwale achieved by aligning with RSS.

3)During the Ludhiana kaand when on the one hand Shromani Tat Khalsa was holding a procession and recieving police bullets Dhumma also accompanied them ,while at the same time a number of nangs(nihangs) and kaalies(Badal dal people) were seen sitting in Asutosh's Smagam.The reality of Dhumma surfaced when after giving an ultimatum to the Badal govt that they will sit on the road till the Badal govt allows funeral of Bhai Darshan Singh at the place of Asutosh's smagam.But Mr Dhumma and certain other saadhs of the saadh laana left the venue of the dharna in between and the govt managed to do Antim Sanskar of Bhai Darshan Singh at his village without letting anyone see him at the final hours before the funeral.

I can give a number of such examples of the betrayal by the nangs and saadh laana.

These people will continue to be encouraged day by day till freedom is achieved from this system.We must not forget that it was the congress led by Amrinder Singh which sought the votes of Saudhaa Saadh during the last elections.

We have a list of Punjab leaders of BJP,Congress,Badal dal who visited various deras including so called Sikh deras for votes.

Conclusion is BJP,Congress,Badal dal all are same.How they participate and win elections and by which means is well known.Only a different political system can rid us of this disease.

Khalistan is the only solution.

The following video tells why :

YouTube- S.Simranjit Singh Mann khalistan speech ludhiana kand.wmv

Mr Simranjit Singh Mann is a gold medalist in History and stood fourth in the IAS,IPS exams.Badal may be cunning in politics but he is no where near Mann so far as knowledge is concerned.Mann's thinking is 20 years ahead of what a common Sikh thinks.The GOI knows that ,this is is reason why they used to torture Mann on the pretext of conspiring to kill Indra Gandhi.That was the reason why certain medicines were put in his food on a daily basis so that they have negative effect on his brain.This was the reason why Mann was attacked by Badal dal,SOI,Chautala brigade and RSS goondas at Kathunangal and his turban knocked off and he recieved serious injuries in his skull .

I have myself attended Mann's rally at Maghi conference,Muktsar many years back where not many people attended the conference.At that time the media had successfuly managed to malign Mann and the Sikhs were very ignorant.But nowadays the Sikhs have become aware and sometimes gathering at Mann's Khalistan rally's break all records.

Sikhs must remember that talking about Khalistan,raising Khalistan slogans and achieving Khalistan by peaceful means is "not" unconstitional according to Indian constitution.This is the ruling of the Supreme court.Mr Mann has won this case when Badal took it to the high court where he (badal)lost and then to supreme court where again badal lost.

Similarly Sant Bhindranwale knew about what was in store in the future for the Sikhs ,that is why he used to say "Singho tyaar bar tyaar raho..." and "ajay parakh dee gharri(time) auni hai.." but some Sikhs inside Punjab and a number of those outsides though that this warning was for someone else and the results are in front of us.

At the moment also most of the Sikhs are sleeping wheras RSS and the hindutva is not only training it's men but also it's woman wing "Durga Vahini" in arms(guns) training openly all over India with the connivance of GOI.

We must remember that most of those Sikhs killed in 1984 anti Sikh pogroms had nothing to do with Sant Bhindrawale and were in fact congress supporters.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala and Sukhbir Singh Discussion on Dasam Granth at Sur Saga

Actually the Kaal point is a very important one.

In th opening of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji God is described as Akaal or Timeless.

In Dasam Granth God is described as Kaal, or Time itself.

Akaal being Infinite and Kaal being finite. Very very different concepts.


Thanks for clarifying this point. It is an important one. Some make the case that Kaal and Mahakaal are the same as Akaal Purakh -- but linguistically it is not possible. Akaal is above time. And spiritually (not quite the word I am looking for) Akaal is timeless and unaffected by Kaal. This conflation of Kaal and Akaal in some Sikh quarters is to put it crudely -- confusion! Yet some will say that Kaal is a functional attribute of Akaal, making one wonder :confused::confused::confused: How did they come to that conclusion? Akaal is timeless, and the thought that Akaal has a functional attribute of time rises from very ancient Vedic scholasticism -- not shared by all Vedics -- and is not consistent with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.
 
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:

Latest Activity

Top