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Islam GAY MUSLIMS, Documentary, UK

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by CaramelChocolate, Jan 21, 2006.

  1. CaramelChocolate

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    Jul 13, 2004
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    [Wasn't sure where else to post it as I had trouble finding individual faith forums]


    A groundbreaking documentary exploring how many gay Muslims struggle to integrate their religion with their sexuality. For some it means suppressing their desires or leading a clandestine double life, while for others it means losing the respect and support of their family and community.
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  3. ISDhillon

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    Dec 14, 2005
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    Re: Quash the homophobic sikhs

    As you might be aware their are certain factions which exist in canada which aim to destroy all that we have fought to protect such as equality and humanitarianism, the view by the jathedar and certain politicians on this issue is so myopic it is blinding. Happy reading:

    Satsriakal Folks, [​IMG]

    I have read quite a bit about this issue and have also written a lot about this issue on many forums this is my gathering of evidence and personal opinion from my understanding it is in no way the truth it is just a fair attempt at a sikh perspective, and have also spoken to many people who are homosexual, the saddest thing about this issue is that we can all CHOOSE to reject homosexuality, however a homosexual cannot CHOOSE to reject their sexuality therefore we can possibly condemn an innocent group of people for eternity for no reason whatsoever. I also find that people favour a knee <admin-profanity filter activated> reaction rather than look at this issue without prejudice. I have not found an ounce of evidence to support a ban on same-sex anand karaj, anand karaj is not a marriage, shaadi, viaah or wedding. We need to look at the defnition of all others before looking at the anand karaj. A marriage is typically from a semitic backgound defined as: Gods blueprint for the continuity of his creation - this therefore suggests gender specificity. Anand karaj however is defined as: Gods blueprint for self realisation through the loving bond of a civil union. Therefore I can see no problem with same-sex unions in sikhism. The biggest defeat that dogma has faced is the evolution of society and homosexuality has defied all faiths bar sikhi as sikhi never took a position on sexuality only its over-indulgence. Which is with good merit.

    So what facts in sikhi have people used as arguments lets look at things in detail:

    I have yet to experience this concept, lived in the west for 20 years and have learned that love is our greatest culture people say we need a male and female role model my grandfather was a paedophile ,suffering made his children better people they didn’t turn into paedophiles. So what if 2 men look after a child, I think its worse to raise a child on your own I mean 2 heads are better than one, our mother Mata Sahib Kaur devan was a virgin all her life, she was a virgin for a reason and that is that the perfect mother has no biological link with her children the perfect link is through the spirit which is in the sacrament of amrit the double edged sword destroys all earthly distinctions including sexual orientation, that fraternity are bound by the common love of a mother and father that need not give birth to them that is truly the perfect family unit.


    This man administered water to both the enemy and the khalsa without discrimination, this angered a portion of the sangat, he was forced to present himself before the guru when asked why he quenched the thirst if the enemy he said to the guru it is you who has said ‘it is the same light that exists in all’, the guru then gave Bhai Khannaiya Ji some ointment and said go do your job properly, the group of Sikhs which acted in outrage were shamed. Tell me if I were to go before the SGPC and state that the same light exists in 2 people regardless of their gender and that being the reason I support same sex marriages do you think I would be presented with a siropa? I think not the SGPC are new-age masands and nothing else.


    There are many similarities between a gurdwara and a lockeroom they both are separated by gender, in the lockeroom its for modesty reasons in the gurdwara it’s for allowing the sangat to focus, maybe we should now make a third division for homosexuals, NO!!!. In my opinion the gurus taught man to awaken his moral responsibility hence rejecting the purdah of Islam, we have lost sight of the teachings of our gurus.


    *Please do not turn this debate into an argument about dhirmalias*

    Pseudo-saints have argued that a marriage is between the female part of the soul and the male part, if a person becomes possessed by a spirit prior to marriage it is possible at the point of marriage for a soul to be married to its host and new partner. I have seen this in the symbolic reverse-lavans that take place at Manji sahib at dera Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji in the mountains in HP the man or women who is possessed have to walk backwards around the bir they call it putthe-lavans _(backward circambulation) this may sound silly, but it has symbolic implications for a soul ,and the host divorces its parasitic soul, this can happen with the dead soul of a male with a living male and vica versa for a female, this long winded explanation proves there is no such thing as female and male soul, gender is limited to this mortal coil anything to the contrary is crap.


    Homosexuality has existed from the beginning of time anyone who says it’s a western thing or kaljug are blind, orthodoxy is something that has crept into our faith because people choose to follow a conduct blindly without understanding its message, these people are an embarrassment, sikhi is a liberal faith, we can update our praxis as we see fit, deification of our glorious history has lead to an imbalance of thought and no spontaneity when it comes to making political decisions. There are no schisms in sikhi just schizmoids parading as jathedars.

    A homosexual male can only love a women as a sister or mother figure or friend NEVER as a lover, so the definition of man and women being the perfect family unit is flawed and as we strive for sarbat da bhalla this does not look after the welfare of homosexuals. A heterosexual person will always find it hard to digest homosexuality therefore we should let homosexuals themselves be the measure of their love and commitment towards one another this is not a discussion for religion it is outside the realms of loving god because god loves all regardless of their sexuality god even created homosexuality, amrit is viable for gays and lesbians alike i wonder if a hermaphrodite has ever taken amrit?.

    What if tomorrow people, whose sexual preference is bestiality, want to marry animals?
    Homosexuality is consensual like heterosexuality, bestiality and paedophilia can NEVER be consensual. Religion teaches us not to be obsessed with sex, people have taken the opinion that homosexuality is just sexual and have given total disregard to the minute possibility of a homosexual relationship having anything to do with LOVE, in this respect I believe testosterone has got the better of these scholars and they may want to control their androgynous fervour by being more open minded (not weak!), don’t you know its a kurahit in sikhi to have lust?.

    Sikhi teaches us to establish a relationship with the divine this is possible to any human being regardless of their sexual habits. People mention Sodom and Gomorrah which were destroyed supposedly by gods wrath, OUR RELIGION IS NOT SEMITIC WE HAD A DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, Quran which depicts this story is an indirect revelation from an angel called Gabrielle, angels are not without sin Satan being a good example, that is the beauty of sikhi all our gurus ,pirrs ,bhagats had the same perspective if you cant see god in all you cant see god at all!!!!!. Please dont bring other religious traditions into consideration when discussing issues such as these we will not follow by example of other traditions but come into our own, and if people find that hard to digest then let them choke we have made a lot of sacrifices as minorities, and should therefore understand the position of other minority groups!!.

    Anand KARAJ
    Anand Karaj: the union of 2 souls not a <admin-profanity filter activated> and a <admin-profanity filter activated>! People talk about family life preferable over celibacy and promiscuity WRONG AGAIN!!!, sikhi rejects gristhi and sanyasin and commands us to be sant sipahi (teesri panth), on the battlefield you will not shy away from the protection of a khalsa if he or she is homosexual. The 4 lavans talk about marriage being essential so that we help spiritually nourish one another through our love for one another and achieve union. Some people say homosexuality is a disease or a disability I know of homosexuals which have excelled in every field of human endeavour including sainthood! Culture has had a large impact on the way we marry there was never any circambulation of GGS during lavans this is bipran-mat that has crept into our faith therefore further reinforcing gender stereotypes ie, the brothers have to hold the sister cos she’s a girl and she’s really weak and might start crying but we all know its so she doesn’t do a legger! (lol).

    It was never mans purpose to have children or continue the human race it is to learn to love one another and through that wonder, fall in love with god if these conditions are not met for all types of people we will have what we have to day a stagnant society, just because you tell people homosexuality is a crime punishable by death has not stopped god causing to be born homosexuals within those very regimes, so how many time will we keep falling on the same hurdle until we learn to accept that it is a reality and we should understand and integrate it within the doctrines of sikhi instead of applying self appropriated notions of common sense and decency to situations we can never understand. This dilemma is the same as the diabolic interpretations western and eastern scholars have made of our faith, in general we have to suffer their short comings and lack of understanding cos our own people have not made any satisfactory attempt of rebuttal of their writings and in the same way these people are jumping on the same bandwagon with every other dogma encrusted religious tradition by saying that homosexuality defies the lords will and is against nature, but really they are disgusted with homosexuality and its various camp stereotypes. The sad reality is that we are becoming like the mughal emperors, they were people who never repeated the lords name whilst they were alive but were quick to hide behind their religion when executing our gurus, such narrow minded conceited people who never took the time to understand the message behind something DIFFERENT.

    People talk about sodomy and aids, yes their right, knowingly spreading any disease is a sin but what does that have to do with homosexuality? this is a discussion about the civil union of 2 people who are in love, their bedroom antics are not open to discussion. Raping men by sodomy I believe is the sin in the city of Sodom, love was never in the equation, if sodomy is the sin then how will we find the sin of lesbians?

    Objective disorder?
    Flamboyancy and camp stereotypes exist in the gay (and lesbian but not flamboyant, more masculine) culture, because growing up gay people are not made to feel that their existence is normal they are in a sense made to feel sinister(try to imagine being made to feel like that), societies non-approval causes gay people to react in a way to get acknowledgement from society albeit abusive this is an “overriding fear” mechanism, they go to the extreme of their gender preference(extreme femininity/masculinity). In demanding their acknowledgement, if from a young age children were told that sexuality is individual, everybody would settle into their uniqueness and there would be no bullying, cos nobody would “stand out” and hence be “not normal” cos this fear mechansim would cease to exist. With this in mind I would like to discuss contribution to Sikhism, would you want to contribute to something which was embarrassed of your existence? And if any person is not satisfied, you can never be in a position to contribute cos you’ll spend the majority of your life hiding who you are.

    Failing marriages: violence/alcohol and drug abuse
    I dont want people to marry somebody who has entered the marriage scene and fail cos there is no other acceptable place for them to acheive the basic necessity of companionship, cos the society wont accept them. everyday we state in the moolmantar that god is nirbhau fearless and nirvair without hatred we too need to become nirbhaur, a gay person will enter a marriage in fear of rejection, in fear of ending up lonely, in fear of their life being at the mercy of someone whose sense of righteosness is in upholding their family honour, in fear of them never having children. Taboos need to be wiped out so that we tell our society there is a place for everyone.

    Saintly behaviour?
    when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he mentioned that his aim was dusht of the tyrants that refused to allow the saints to repeat the name of god this was in response to the increasing number of executions by the then mughal emperor auranzeb, one of the saints was sarmad, Sarmad was in love with a hindu boy called Abahy Chand and look what sant naranjan singh ji says about him:

    "During the time of Aurangzeb, a missionary came from Rome. He asked everyone the same two questions. "What is Patience, and what is Gratitude?" What do they mean? He would accept only an explanation that would remove all his doubts.

    This missionary saw Aurangzeb and explained the aim of his visit. "You write Koran everyday. You are called the highest emperor. You have employed 1400 Muslim priests" he said. Everyone tried to explain through logic and examples, however, the missionary was not satisfied.

    (Logic, arguments, and examples often lose the real essence, your vision becomes foggy. Gratitude and Patience are inter-connected. They are the two wings of spiritual life.)"

    (Aurangzeb had a famous Saint by the name of Sarmud detained in the dungeon.)

    "Now, this missionary wanted to see Sarmud also. So, he was taken into the dungeon to meet this Saint. He found this Saint in chains, but, when the missionary had his Darshan (saw the spiritual Glory) he immediately felt Peace. He bowed and presented his question, 'What is the meaning of Patience, and Gratitude?" This Sadhu said, "Come back tomorrow. I am going to be executed soon. I want to take a bath. Please bring me water and a piece of cloth for my last bath tomorrow. After that bath, I will demonstrate the practice the virtue of Patience and Gratitude. I will show it to you. Be sure to note down what you see.'

    Next day at dawn, this missionary presented the Saint with water and a piece of cloth. This Saint stood up, and took a bath while in the chains. (Listen carefully now. Patience and Gratitude, is being explained.) He wrapped the cloth around his waist and closed his eyes in prayer. He asked this missionary to stand up, and to shut his eyes, also.

    (People with a Spiritual Life impart their lessons by actually living them.) Sarmud put his spiritual hand on this missionary's head. Now the missionary started seeing what was previously invisible. He saw that there are countless spirits on one side ready to destroy the red fort with a magnificently adorned elephant waiting outside, ready to mount. They are all resting on Sarmud's palm, but he is gesturing to stop the destruction with the finger of his other hand.

    Dhann (wonderfully glorious) is the Sadhu Sarmud! He is going to be executed. But he is telling these spirits to stop, do not destroy anyone! The Sadhu said, 'Look, Khuda (God) has made me so powerful and has given me anything I wanted. All my thoughts are soaked with gratitude. These chains on this body cannot bother me.'

    'Second, and last demonstration of Patience will be tomorrow. You see, the executioner is sharpening his sword to chop my head off. You have seen that I can destroy the whole city with a gesture of my finger. But, I am not going to utter a curse, even! I will simply tolerate everything with greatest forbearance and contentment.'

    (In fact, only a person with Contentment can live the life in Patience and the Gratitude.)

    'My God has greatest Mercy on me so that, although I am being executed tomorrow, I am going to return only fortitude' Sarmud said.

    The missionary bowed at his feet and returned to Rome with a real understanding of 'Patience' and

    (From: Anmol Bachan, p 44-5 - compiled by Sister Surjeet Kaur Gandhi)

    Sarmad was in fact a gay martyr he was also a saint of dara shikoh who was a follower of Sri Guru Har Rai Ji also and was familiar with mystic lore, now a lot of people will say he was not gay here is proof it is a long read and I will continue below this, BTW the reason why Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji did not include the writings of gay saints into SGGS was not because of their lifestyle he did a study of kachi and pakki bani, pakki bani is dhur ki bani:

    “Coming back to the start, Chandni Chowk is the most
    historic street in the world, say scholars. It is here
    that Dara Shikoh, Sanskrit scholar and the future King
    of India was dragged in rags through thronging crowds
    ..who loved him..so much so that one of them cursed
    his throne grabbing brother, Aurangzeb to leave Delhi
    forever ..and Aurangzeb never returned(He is buried in
    the Deccan)

    It is here that Sarmad, the digambar (nude/ skyclad)
    Sufi fell in love with Abhay Chand, the Hindu
    merchant’s son.. and renounced the world. It is here
    that Aurangzeb ordered his execution.. apparently for
    ‘insulting Islam’, but essentially for befriending
    Dara and influencing the masses of Delhi with his
    blending message..
    Three executioners tried unsuccessfully to behead
    him.. till Sarmad himself handed Abhay Chand the
    sword..singing’ Come my beloved, in whatsoever garb
    thou come, I recognise thee well’..His severed head
    walked the steps of the Jama Masjid before thousands
    of Dilliwalas and had to be restrained from destroying
    the whole city..the legend says. He was followed by
    the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur, who he and Dara Shikoh
    loved dearly- beheaded at Gurudwara Sheesh(Head) Ganj,
    again in the heart of Chandni Chowk. “

    “Sarmad, a mystic poet beheaded in 1661

    "Armenians in India" pp 167-77 ; pp 179-81 & p 194, by Mesrovb Jacob Seth - Calcutta 1937
    [167] Armenians and merchants have been synanomous words in India, for it was trade and commerce that attracted the Armenians to this tropical country from their homes in the delectable and snow-clad mountains of Armenia, from the days of remote antiquity.
    Apart from eminent merchants, clever diplomats, great soldiers, able governors and administrators, casters of huge pieces of ordnance and manufacturers of firelocks, which, according to Marshman, "were superior to the Tower-proof muskets of the Company", the Armenians have given to India a poet of great merit whose fame spread over Mohammedan India as a saint and a scholar, in the middle of the 17th century, and to this day, his memory is revered and kept green by all lovers of the noble, the beautiful and the sublime, not only in this country, but in the countries where the charms of the beautiful language of the immortal Ferdosi. Nizami, Saadi, Hafez, Jami and Khayyam, have captured and captivated the imagination of millions.
    But who was this remarkable poet whom even the mighty Emperor Aurungzebe, the last of the Great Moguls, dreaded and ultimately beheaded, as can be seen later on.
    Let us first tap the European sources for reliable information about this remarkable Armenian.
    In the Oriental Biographical Dictionary by Thomas William Beale, revised and enlarged in 1894 by that eminent Persian scholar and historian. Henry George Keene,(*1) [168] M.R.A.S., we find the following authoritative account of Sarmad :— "Sarmad, the poetical name of an Armenian merchant who came to India in the reign of the Emperor Shah Jehan. In one of his journeys towards Thatta, he fell so passionately in love with a Hindu girl(*2) that he became distracted and would go about the streets naked. He was well versed in the Persian language and was a good poet. In the beginning of the reign of Alamgir [Aurungzebe] he was put to death on account of his disobeying the orders of that Emperor, who had commanded him not to so about naked, This even took place about the year 1661 (1072 A.H.). Some say that the real cause of his execution was a Rubcu [quatrain] which he had composed, the translation of which is: "The Mullas say that Mohammad entered the heavens, but Sarmad says that the heavens entered Mohammad " His tomb is close to the Juma Musjid at Delhi. Following in the footsteps of his compatriots, Sarmad came out to India as a merchant from Persia by sea He set up in business in the town of Thathah in Sindh, on the shores of the Indus, where his business thrived exceedingly and he spent his days in comfort and peace. During his sojourn in that city he contracted a close friendship with a Hindu lad, Abhai Chand by name. This was the turning point in his life, for unlike his calculating and serious minded countrymen, he neglected his business, lost the equilibrium of his mind altogether and relinquishing his life of comfort and peace, he lived thenceforth the austere life of a naked Hindu fakir- (ascetic) and in this nude state he would go and sit at the door of his beloved Abhai Chand. The following translation of a distich shows the true sentiment of the distracted Sarmad : "I know not if in this spherical old monastery [the world} My God is Abhai Chand or some one else."
    The boy's father seeing the earnestness of the ascetic, and the purity of the attachment, allowed him to come to his house with [169] the result that his son Abhai Chand became so much attached to Sarmad that he could not bear to live apart from him. Soon after this, both left Thathah and went to Delhi. Shah Jehan was then the Mogul Emperor of India. People flocked round Sarmad and many found him to be a man of great sanctity and supernatural powers.
    The eldest son of the Emperor, the unfortunate prince Dara Shikoh, whose devotion to Brahmanical dogmas and theosophical beliefs is well known, was one of Sarmad's constant visitors and staunch admirers. It was Dara Shikoh who brought the miraculous powers of the saint, (Sarmad) to the notice of his august father, the Emperor Shah Jehan. The prudent Emperor deputed Inayat Khan, one of the Umara (grandees), of his Court to ascertain the real facts. The grandee visited the naked saint and his report was most favorable if not reassuring. Prince Dara Shikoh was one of the many disciples of Sarmad and the tutor had predicted that Dara Shikoh would be the next Emperor after Shah Jehan. Which prediction was not however fulfilled through the treachery of Aurengzebe who ascended the throne of the mighty Moguls by first imprisoning his father and then murdered his two brothers, Dara Shikoh and Murad Baksh.
    Aurangzebe hated Sarmad for having been a partisan of Dara Shikoh on whom he had promised to confer the throne When Aurungzebe had usurped the throne, he taunted Sarmad about the succession of his favorite disciple, Dara Shikoh to the throne, which he had promised him. Sarmad calmly replied : “God has given him the eternal sovereignty and my promise is not falsified." Needless to add that the Emperor was greatly displeased and incensed with this sarcastic reply of the naked (*3) saint and from that moment he decided to put an end to that poor man's life. The favorable moment was [170] not long in coming, as Sarmad, who was a Sufi,(*4) had expressed sentiments of a heretical nature in the following distich, ridiculing the nocturnal journey of Mohammed to heaven .
    "The Mullas say that Abroad went to heaven.
    Sarmad says that heaven came down to Ahmad".
    According to the Sufis who believe in the unity of the creator and the created, there is nothing objectionable in this doctrine, moreover as in the opinion of certain Ulama, the Miraj, or the nocturnal journey of Mahomed to heaven was allegorical and spiritual, but a fanatic and a bigot like Aurungzebe, could not possibly tolerate such a blasphemy, open and palpable, that was likely to shake the foundation of the Mohammedan faith.
    The supreme moment had at last arrived for Aurungzebe to wreak his vengeance on the harmless naked saint and scholar and he immediately ordered his execution.
    It is said that when the condemned man was being led away from the tribunal to the place of execution, he uttered, ex tempore, 24 quatrains. The crowd was so dense that one could pass through it with great difficulty.
    When the executioner, a low caste man of the sweeper class, approached him with his naked sword, he wanted, according to custom, to cover the condemned man's head, but Sarmad hinted not to do it, then he smiled and addressing the executioner said :—
    "The friend with naked sword has now arrived
    In whatever disguise thou mayst come, I recognize thee,
    He also uttered the following distich :
    “There was an uproar and we opened our eyes from the eternal sleep.
    [171] Saw that the night of wickedness endured, so we slept again".
    Aqil Khan Razi, the court chronicler of Aurungzebe, writes that when the executioner was about to inflict the fatal blow, Sarmad uttered :
    "The nakedness the body was the dust of the road to the friend,
    That too was severed, with the sword, from our head".
    According to another version Sarmad uttered :
    "My head was severed from the body by that flirt, who was my companion,
    The story was shortened, otherwise the headache would have been too severe".
    One of the companions of Sarmad, one Shah Asadullah, went up to him and told him
    "Do cover your nakedness and utter the creed in full and you will be let off".
    Sarmad looked up, said nothing in reply but uttered the following couplet :
    "A long time since the fame of Mansur became an ancient relic,
    I will exhibit with my head the sallow and the cord”.
    Sarmad died cheerfully and with complete resignation like every Armenian that has suffered martyrdom, for his religion, at the hands of the Mohammedans during the past 1300 years. Prince Dara Shikoh, the disciple of Sarmad, and the rightful heir to the throne of the Moguls, was beheaded by the order of his younger brother, that consummate hypocrite and fanatic Aurungzebe, in the year 1069 A.H. (1659 A.D.) and two years later, Sarmad shared the fate of his royal pupil, “and from that day", says a native historian, "the house of Timour declined both in glory and power".
    He was beheaded in 1661 near the Jama MusJid at Delhi, for heresy, in the midst of an unprecedentedly huge crowd and though not a Mohammedan, yet he was buried under the steps [172] of the great mosque where his grave is venerated to this day, by Hindus as well as Mohammedans, who make offerings of flowers, light candles and burn incense on the saint's revered grave, after his martyrdom 275 years ago. Sarmad was considered well inspired and a man of sanctity.
    The people of India have not forgotten that the harmless naked saint was killed by the order of Aurungzebe because he loved Dara Shikoh and championed his cause.
    It is recorded that on the day of the execution, the Emperor said to the ecclesiastics (fudala) that a man was not liable to be executed merely for his nudity but that he should be required to pronounce the Islamic creed. Addressing the saint, they said "How is it that inspite of your great learning, you only utter the first half of the Kalima(*5) or creed and not the remaining part"? Sarmad replied that "I am still absorbed in the negative part, why shall I tell a lie"? So, according to this version, Sarmad's execution, at the suggestion of the Emperor was made according to the Islamic Law. So far as can be seen, the execution, in the opinion of the fanatic Aurungzebe, was necessary from a religious point of view.
    Living the life of a nude mendicant, composing delightful quatrains, some of which may well be compared with those of Omar Khayyam, yet Sarmad interested himself in politics by becoming a partisan of Dara Shikoh whom he predicted to be Shah Jehan's rightful successor. This was gall and wormwood to Aurungzebe. Sarmad was the center of attraction to the public at Delhi. Dara was condemned and beheaded because of his apostacy and Sarmad was condemned and killed for having contributed partly to that apostacy. Deeply as he disliked his eldest brother Dara, for his politics and leanings towards the tenets of non-Muslims and mendicants, (majazib), his first act, as soon as he came to power, was to remove that arch heretic and those who had aided and abetted him in his apostacy and political activities. Sarmad who was a Sufi and [173] a mystic philosopher was a great Persian scholar and had read science and metaphysics with such well known and distinguished scholars as Mulla Sadr-ud-din Shirazi, Mirza Abul Qasim Fandarsaki and other eminent scholars of the time.
    Sarmad was so filled with divine love that to him the king, the judge, the executioner, the whole universe, including himself, were the same. The soul itself and the universe were merged into Divinity. He had no consciousness of himself.
    The following letter which Prince Dara Shikoh addressed to Sarmad shows the high regard the royal pupil had for his saintly master:
    My Pir and Preceptor—
    Everyday I resolve to pay my respects to you. It remains unaccomplished. If I be I, wherefore is my intention of no account? If I be not—what is my fault? Though the murder of Imam Hossain was the will of God: Who is (then) Yazid between (them). If it is not the Divine Will, then what is the meaning of "God does whatever He wills and commands whatever He intends”? The most excellent prophet used to go to fight the unbelievers, defeat was inflicted on the army of Islam. The exoteric scholars say it was an education in resignation. For the perfect what education was necessary?" Sarmad's reply to the above epistle consisted of two lines, in verse, which can be translated thus :—
    “My dear—
    What we have read, we have forgotten,
    Save the discourse of the Friend which we reiterate.”
    Sarmad's name stands prominent in the republic of letters. Daghistani calls him eminent in learning and Arabic scholarship. His impromptus are very popular in Delhi. His poems consist mostly of quatrains. In a quatrian(*6) Sarmad says that he follows Hafez in qazal and Omar Khayyam in rubaiyat.
    [174] All the biographical works of the Persian poets that have been written after him contain appreciative and highly eulogistic notices of Sarmad.
    His favorite companion and disciple, Abhai Chand who was the son of a wealthy Hindoo rajah, according to Nasrabadi, left his father, mother, home and wealth and adopted the life of a mendicant and took to sitting on ashes like the Hindoo faqirs. According to the same writer. Abhai Chand, died soon after Sarmad was beheaded through intense grief.
    As we have said, Sarmad was a Sufi poet and there are verses which he composed that might be construed by a bigot as being against Islamic religion and on account of such opinion, he brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a stem puritan all his life and a bigoted champion of orthodoxy. His fanaticism, intolerance and his inordinate zeal for the Mohammedan religion were the main causes of the downfall of the glorious Mogul Empire in India.
    Sarmad who was a theist, taunted the fanatic Aurungzebe with the following caustic quatrain ; declaring his religious convictions and openly proclaiming, to the chagrin of the Emperor, that he was not a Mohammedan.
    It can be translated thus :—
    “O ! King of Kings, I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude.
    I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed,
    I am an idolater, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith,
    I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Muslim.”
    No complete collection of the quatrains of Sarmad have been published, though a few of them have been lithographed [175] at Lahore, Delhi and Bombay, with biographical notices of the poet in the Urdu language.
    According to Dr. Rieu, more than 400 of the quatrains of Sarmad are preserved in MS. in the BritishMuseum. There is in the well-known Oriental Library of Rampur State a MS. copy of the Diwan of Sarmad, containing the portrait of the poet, with his disciple Abhai Chand.
    Francois Bernier, M.D., a French physician at the Court of Shah Jehan, writing of naked Hindu faqi'rs, in his Travels in Hindusthan, refers to Sarmad as follows :
    "I have seen for a long while a very famous one in Delhi, called Sarmet, who went thus stark naked along the streets, and who at length would rather suffer his neck to be cut off, than to put on any clothes, what promises or menaces soever Aurung Zebe might send to him.
    " On hearing of Sarmad's death, Bernier wrote as follows:—
    "I was for a long time disgusted with a celebrated Fakir, named Sarmet, who walked in the streets of Delhi as naked as he came to the world. He despised equally the threats and persuations of Aurungzebe and underwent at length the punishment of decapitation for his obstinate refusal to put on his wearing apparel."
    Another European, Niccolao Manucci, in his “Storia do Mogor” (as translated by William Irvine, 1901) writes :—
    Vol. I, p. 223 : Dara held to no religion, when with Mahommedans, he praised the tenets of Muhammad, when with Jews, the Jewish religion ; in the same way. when with Hindus. he praised Hinduism. This is why Aurungzebe styled him a {censored} (infidel). At the same time, he had great delight in talking to the Jesuit fathers on religion, and making them dispute with his learned Mahommedans, or with Cermad [Sarmad] an atheist much liked by the prince. This man went always naked, except when he appeared in the presence [176] of the prince when he contented himself with a piece of cloth at his waist.”
    And on p. 384, he says :
    "After the death of his brother. Dara, Aurungzib ordered them to bring to his presence Acermaad [Sarmad], the atheist, to whom Dara had been devoted, and asked him where was his devoted prince. He replied that he was then present, 'but you cannot see him for you tyrannize over those of your own blood; and in order to usurp the Kingdom, you took away the life of your brothers and did other barbarities. On hearing these words. Aurungzebe ordered his head to be cut off."
    We have seen in the beginning of this Chapter, on the authority of that well-informed author of the "Oriental Biographical Dictionary", that Sarmad was an Armenian who like his countrymen, had come to India for the purposes of trade. which in those days was the sole occupation of the Armenians in India. And in the prefaces to the Lahore and the Delhi editions of Sarmad’s quatrains (rubayat) by learned biographers he is called an Armenian by nationality and a Christian by religion yet there are some Mohammedan historians and biographers who say Sarmad was a Jew(*7) from Kashan in Persia and a convert to Islam.
    There lived in Calcutta an eminent Persian scholar and a journalist, the late Syed Agah Jalaluddin-al-Hossaini, known as Muyyid-al-Islam, who was, by a strange coincidence, .a native of Kashan, the supposed birthplace of the poet, Sarmad. In order to satisfy ourselves about the vexed question of the poet s nationality we thought of seeking his advice in the matter some eight years ago as he was a great authority on Persian poets, their lives and their works. [177]
    We called on the veteran journalist who had unfortunately lost his sight during the latter years of his life and found him lying on an easy chair, in the editorial office, dictating an editorial to his scribe for his favorite Hablul-Malin. After the usual salutations and compliments we asked the Persian sage about the nationality of Sarmad and the country he hailed from. He was greatly surprised that we, a countryman of the poet, should have any doubts in the matter, as Sarmad was known to be an Armenian from Persia. When we told him that a certain Mohammedan writer had said in a public lecture that Sarmad was a Jew from Kashan, he was -highly amused and remarked sarcastically that it was not possible for a persecuted, miserable, unkempt, unwashed and unlettered Jew of Kashan to rise to the proud and enviable position of a famous Persian poet.
    When we were wishing him good-bye and expressing our thanks for his kind courtesy, the good old man wished to know the reason of our enquiry about the poets nationality. We told him that we intended writing an account of Sarmad in one of the leading Armenian journals and did not wish to commit ourselves, whereupon he said in an authoritative tone, “go and write that Muayyid-al-Islam says that Sarmad was an Armenian from Iran" (Bero benevis khe Muayyid-al-Islam meegooiad khe Sarmad Armanee bood az Iran).
    Sher Khan Lodi, who was a celebrated poet in the reign of the Emperor Aurungzebe and had ample opportunities of seeing Sarmad, states, in his Life of poets, called Maratal Khial, that Hakhim Sarmad was an Armenian from Faranghisthan (Europe) and was originally engaged in trade when he came out to India.
    [179]There are some interesting anecdotes, founded on traditions, about the supernatural powers of Sarmad, prevalent amongst the people of Delhi to this day, for the truth of which we cannot vouch. It is said that the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a puritan, had strictly forbidden the use of bhang as a narcotic because of its deleterious effects. One of the many spies of the King reported to him that Sarmad, in defiance of the royal fiat, was addicted to the vice of smoking bhang and that he kept the drug in an earthen pot near him always wherever he sat. This was good news for Aurungzebe who was always trying to find fault with the poet whom he hated with a deadly hatred. He paid a sudden visit to Sarmad and found the poet lecturing to his disciples. He at once noticed the earthen pot and asked Sarmad what it contained. The poet suspecting that the Emperor had been apprised of the contents of the earthen pot, replied nonchalantly that it contained some milk and on the Emperor pressing him to show him the milk, Sarmad most unconcernedly uncovered the pot and lo and behold there was milk in it. His disciples who knew what the earthen pot contained originally were simply amazed and spread the news of the miracle performed by their master in converting the harmful bhang into harmless milk.
    There is another anecdote equally interesting. One day Sarmad was watching a mollah praying earnestly and with great devotion in the Juma Musjid at Delhi. The poet told his followers that the mollah's god was under his (Sarmad's) feet. A spy immediately carried the news to Aurungzebe who was praying in the mosque at the same time, it being a Friday. The irate Emperor came up to Sarmad and ordered him immediately to give a satisfactory explanation for his blasphemy. Sarmad who could never be intimidated by Aurungzebe, told him to send for the mollah and ask him to confess what he was praying for. The nervous ecclesiastic, who was trembling in his shoes in the presence of the stern monarch, nolens volens confessed that he was praying to God to grant him some money to enable him to get his daughter married.
    Sarmad remarked that the mollah had spoken the truth for once in his life and asked Aurungzebe to get his men to dig [180] the ground where he stood and on digging the place they found some gold coins buried there.
    Sarmad was jubilant over the discovery and told the astonished Emperor in his usual cynical tone that he was not wrong when he said that the mollah's god was under his feet.
    Aurungzebe was nonplussed and confounded but the news spread with lightening speed that Sarmad had worked another miracle.
    Any wonder then that Aurungzebe hated Sarmad with the deadly hatred of a fanatic and wished to put an end to the life of an unbeliever who was looked upon as a saint and a holy man by the public in the early years of his reign of intolerance and religious persecution.
    Whilst these lines were passing through the press, we were informed by the gallery assistant of the DelhiFortMuseum that there is an inscription on Sarmad's tombstone.
    We reproduce his letter which is as follows :—
    "In reply to your enquiry. I beg to inform you that at the head of Sarmad's grave, there is a masonry pillar with lamp niches and on it has been fixed an incised slab of stone containing
    the following inscription in Persian :—
    Which can be translated thus :—
    When Shah Sarmad in the reign of Alamgeer
    [Aurungzebe] set out on a journey to Paradise.
    Poor Akbar said the date,
    "This is the grave of Sarmad the Martyr”.
    The people in Delhi greatly venerate the grave of Sarmad and daily burn lights and incenses and sprinkle fresh roses and flowers on it. The Muslims who come to Delhi from far and near never miss a visit to the grave of this saint. Besides, the musicians sing religious songs at the grave of Sarmad nearly every evening and particularly on Thursdays. A class of [181] illiterate Muslims also celebrate the festival of Basant near its grave."
    Peace to his soul, rest to his ashes and may the revered memory of the great poet be cherished and kept green, for ages to be, in the land where he suffered martyrdom for his open defiance of Islamic rituals and customs.
    [194] We cannot conclude this chapter without recording our grateful thanks to Hakim Habibur Rahman, the well-known Yunani physician of Dacca and a good Persian scholar, for having brought to our notice, some eight years ago, that the renowned poet SARMAD was an ARMENIAN. ....
    (*1) [167] Keene is the author of several learned works on Indian history notably of the Mogul period. His Turks in India and The Mogul Empire are master-pieces. He has compiled interesting Guide Books to Delhi and Agra, replete with historical and topographical information. He was Judge at Agra in 1879.
    (*2) [168] According to Mohammedan historians and biographers it was a Hindu lad of the Bunnia caste, Abhai Chand by name.
    (*3) [169] In a quatrain (rubai) addressed to his relentless persecutor the Emperor Aurungzebe, Sarmad gives the reason of his nudity: “He who save you the sovereignty of the world. Gave me all the causes of anxiety. He covered with a garment those who had any fault (deformity) To the faultless he gave the robe of nudity."
    (*4) [170] For a history of the origin and the growth of Sufism in Persia, see the note at the end of this Chapter.
    (*5) [172] The first part of the Kalima, which is in Arabic, can be translated thus : "There is no God but God" (La Ala Allalah) and the second part, "And Mohaaunad is his prophet" (Mohammad rasool Allah). It was quite natural that Sarmad refused to utter the second part of the Kalima, not being a Mohammedan.
    (*6) [173] Sarmad pays a well-deserved compliment to Hafez and Khayyam, two of the greatest poets of Persia, in the following quatrain :— "I have no business with the fancy and thought of others, In composing a ghazal I adopt the manner of Hafez, But in rubai, I am a disciple of Khayyam, But do no quaff much of his wine."
    (*7) [176] There are no records of Jews coming to India from Persia for the purposes of trade in the 16th, 17th or 18th centuries. The Sassoons, the Jacobs and other merchant princes of Bombay came From Baghdad in Mesopotomia, so did the Ezras, the Gubbays and the Manassehs of Calcutta in the early part of the l9th century.”

    “It is true that Muhammad Saqi Musta'ad Khan and Muhammad Hashim Khan Khafi Khan have not mentioned the executions of saint Sarmad and Guru Tegh Bahadur in their works. But that does not detract anything from their credibility as writers. Perhaps, they looked upon Sarmad as a great saint, a pir of theirs, and with their hearts full of reverence, they could not think of his death, much less of recording it. We have a similar example in Sikh history. Bhai Gurdas, we know, was a great devoted Sikh. In his Varan, he has made a number of references to the Sikh Gurus from the first to the sixth and to many a leading Sikh of their days, but he has not made any mention whatever of the martyrdom”

    Its shameful and Disgusting
    it is disgusting that a man enters the {censored} because it is a point of defacation. Well tell me, a women urinates and bleeds from her <admin-profanity filter activated> is that not just as disgusting? In Sikhism the human being is male or female only by body, the reason why we have sexual organs is not only for procreation, the sperm content in a man is far in excess of the need to procreate, however that does not mean we should abuse our sexual organs and fulfil all our raw impulses, we need to find a balance and that screams Sikhism to me. When I say balance I mean becoming at ease with our sexuality if you find a partner who is compatible with you then get married whether gay/straight, and then start on the true path of anand karaj which means to support one another through all times and learn to love the lord together and help one another spiritually be one anothers support system if we read the anand karaj we truly realise how above and beyond the necessity for procreation and sexuality truly is, I would suggest that a lot of the non-liberal amongst us give some thought to that instead of diguising their true disgust with their own interpretations of gurbani. Relationships should be based on love sexual affection is an expression of that love but not the basis of the relationship.

    Interpretation of bani
    Mahalla 3, page 788

    “They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.
    They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies."

    This quote is used to support heterosexual marriage but in the real translation this quote is not gender specific the translation is just easier to say man and wife. Nobody has an inherent right to interpret the scripture at their own
    leisure, the guru asks us to use our bibek if I am not wrong this means a
    discerning sense of discrimination, to say its against nature is ridiculous
    there is nothing to suggest that humans were put on this earth to procreate
    this as we know is not mans purpose the bani is in front of us we can either
    read it as it is or try to interpret it in an attempt to further our
    political gains. Time is the true test of falsehood we can either keep on
    waiting for homosexuals to slip up and do something to be condemned for or
    we can co-exist in harmony. The winner of the diversity competition for the
    sikh coalition has given an excellent portrayal of respect for the 'other'.
    The other exists in direct contrast to the former whilst both parties stick
    to their respective identities they reinforce and further define one anothers
    individual characteristics this is the only solution for a plural society,
    who would have thought that atheists would (ying-yang) be able to teach the
    theists a thing or two about mutual co-existence.
    Those who still have hatred or fear towards homosexuals need to do some naam
    simran to get rid of their krodh and lobh respectively, and the clergy need
    to do some naam simran to get rid of their ahankar for feeling they have a
    special right to condemn/excommunicate/punish a section of society. We all
    need to do some naam simran to get rid of our attachment (moh) to this world
    by giving a damn where people shove their bits. Sexuality is fluid and
    comes by virtue of our past karmas these karmas were neither good nor bad
    actions they were an expression of our individuality.

    By tradition the sikh people in punjab and diaspora marry within their caste system even though the practice is denounced by the sikh faith, by tradition hindu widows should immolate themselves on their husbands funeral pyre.

    So to conclude folks there is no problem with sexual orientation all people have a place on this earth and unions are not for creation such a purpose is not compatible with Sikhism.

    If I have offended you I apologise profusely a thousand times I don’t mean any animosity i am just passionate about sikhism NOT about homosexuality, but if someone is going to introduce a subject regarding sikhi for the first time, which by the way I commend the clergy for, I feel it is a learning curve for all of us to engage in debate that way we can find a position that is amicable to all of us and that my friends is SARBAT DA BHALLA.

    Ps: Let me pose a question to yourself: what are the possible short-term and long-term effects of gay-marriage that you fear to be so damning within Sikhism? And why are we looking to mortals is our guru not here today what does our guru say on this issue, I will tell you he says you are free to choose as a sovereign spirit.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
  4. OP

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    Jul 13, 2004
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    Didn't get chance to read the whole response but I will do when I get some free time [busy with exam revision]... But your response is so insightful... I hope it opens the eyes of the ignorant.
  5. ISDhillon

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    Dec 14, 2005
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    Satsriakal CaramelChocolate Ji

    I watched the program last week but it tended to focus on their feet lol, I think because of fear they hide themselves but I always think to myself that why would you want to belong to a community which is ashamed of you, surely once you are ostracized you should go and never come back. One of my relatives was treated badly by her parents she was forced into a marriage but she was very clever she alerted the authorities and was given a chaperone to come to the house of her parents take all her belongings and she never looked back and its been over 20 years and she is a very successfull women I personally think good luck to her why stay with people who care about their reputation more than their children.

    Anyhow I think there is another documentary on tonight dont think I will watch it though it looks boring,

  6. Jogindar Singh Kaur

    Jogindar Singh Kaur
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    SPNer Supporter

    May 26, 2005
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    Re: Quash the homophobic sikhs


    Are you also on SikhNet? I'm Mojave66 over there. I think of you and your posts when I'm going through a rough time and thinking of abandoning the Sikh path for another. You've helped keep me focused on the words of the Gurus and not the sometimes misplaced actions of the followers.

    This essay is MARVELOUS.

  7. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Jul 30, 2004
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    Dear J S Kaur,

    Instead of leaving Panth it is better that we throw out bigots or fanatics from Panth.We need to remove fanatic from our mind too.
  8. ISDhillon

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    Dec 14, 2005
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    Hi Mojave,:cool:

    Yes its me from the other site I left that site because I felt it was not progressive it really belives in censorship and thats not in my nature. I am glad you liked the essay I hope you are well dont worry about the "others" they will fall into line sooner or later it always happens it would be different if their was a system in sikhi where people could be orthodox but it has never been a sikh thing, their are certain organisations which have cropped up but even they are not going to hold such views in the near future. Remember sikhi is more than a religion it is your personal path no-one can take that away from you, you have the right to your own personal interpretation because the guru is hear today and does not condemn you only a misguided few.


  9. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Jul 30, 2004
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    That site only fluourishes which has neutral and unbiased adims and moderators.

    Once DR Khalsa Ji were doing a propogation of this site in a religeous place.Someone said that spn are agents of RSS.

    When he asked for the proof then he was told that accusor does not wants to discuss.

    So people who are pro dogma may slander the concept free discussion which is anyway supported by Guru.Who even did not force his idelogy to his son Baba Srichand.

    He gave example to win person by love.ultimatly his Sixth form won Baba Sri Chand Ji and Udasis were back in our fold as Son of Sixth Guru and Father of Seventh Guru became head of the institution whichwas headed by Baba Sri Chand.

    Das is happy here that views of S. Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana are also posted here.

    In fact till we do not know the views we are unable to debate on them.
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