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(Forgotten Sikhs) Hindus That Are Sikhs/ Sikhs That Are Hindus

Discussion in 'Questions & Answers' started by bairaagi, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. bairaagi

    bairaagi
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    Dear Admin. Please move this to appropriate forum if required.


    Why I am writing this article ?


    I belong to a community called Pachhade jatt in western U.P. and since my childhood I wanted to search for the roots of our community. I thought posting it here might help in finding the same. Me being the 5th generation in U.P. don’t have any clue obout our origin and reason for migration to U.P. My family is sikh.



    Here is some information about us from internet :
    http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Pachhada_Jats
    Pachhada Jats
    Pachhada Jats are the Jat people, that are mostly found in the western districts of Uttar Pradesh. There are about 400,000 Pachhada's there. Their biggest concentration is in the Moradabad district where some 785 villages are mostly populated by them. They belong to the Jat caste, but are differentiated from the Hindu Jats of western U.P. by their names 'Pachhade' (from the west) Jats as opposed to the Hindu Jats who are called Deswali (of this land - UP) Jats. Their name is a clue to their origins. According to the author of the Gazetteer of the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh ( present U.P ) writing in 1878 these tribes migrated about a hundred years ago into their present areas and settled there. The author also remarks that the language spoken by them is Punjabi and not Hindi.
    Relation With Sikhi :

    Although the Pachhadas claim that their ancestors came to U.P. during Banda Singh Bahadur's assault on the Mughal power at Saharanpur in 1711, it is possible that given the approximate date given by the Gazetteer that these Sikhs might have migrated during the great famine of 1783, the so-called Chalisa ( 1783 AD was 1840 in Bikrami calendar ). Whatever their date of settlement they are certainly the descendants of Sikhs. Although they do not keep the 5 K's, they like the Banjaras use the Guru Granth Sahib in their ceremonies. During the 1920s and 1930s there was a great desire amongst them to be accepted as Sikhs and between the 1921 and 1931 census the number of Sikhs in the Moradabad jumped from a mere 231 to 20631 due to the Pachhadas of moradabad registering themselves as Sikhs. Unfortunately these Pachhadas reverted back to Hinduism after 1947. Since the 1930s the U.P. Sikh Mission in active in these areas and there has been some success with regard to their reversion back to Sikhism.

    Here I want to add from my side about the culture here which will be very confusing to lot of people here.


    Language/Boli : The language spoken is some distorted form of Punjabi . It has 50% hindi and 50 % Punjabi. The accents are neutral and no where matches with Punjabi people.
    Example : “Where are you going ” will be spoken as “kithhe nu jaaye raye ho”.
    Population: The current population is 7-8 lakh, 90 % of us live in villages.
    Occupations: 90 % of the people are farmers. Military and police is another preferred option.
    Life style: is very simple most of us are farmers. Unlike Punjab Youth don’t flaunt on royal enfield bullets and jeeps due to limited resources. No show off.
    Food : The diet is very rich. Love to have milk,ghee,makhhan,missi roti and simple food. No spicy food is preferred. Unlike Punjabi people no one here likes chatar patar food like chhole bhature etc. Although non-veg food is popular.
    Religion: Biggest confusion. 90 % of the people are registered as Hindus in their religion but they all go to gurudwaras . Even few marriages are conducted by gyani ji in the presence of Guru granth sahib. Paths are very common and funerals are done through sikh methods. Overall it has lot of influence of Sikhism. Ladies do fasting also and participate in gurudwara sahib deewans as well.(contradicting)
    Marriages: Marriages are done based on the cast and not religion. Sikhs can marry in hindus . Hindus can marry Sikhs family. There is only condition “both bride and grooms should be pachhade jats.” The marriages with local jat (called deshwali jats) are very rare.


    We are sikh but my mother/wife is from hindu family. My sister is married in hindu families. But all the marriages happened in gurudwara.



    Relations with other Punjabis (migrated during 1947): friendly but no marriages happen with them.
    Relations with original jats from U.P.: Same as above.
    Status of Guru Nanak dev/Guru govind Singh/Guru Granth sahib : All the gurus are considered as avatar of Gods and people worship them like gods.
    Five k’s : Only few people follow 5 K’s. like my grandfather converted to sikhism but the count is very low. Although Sikhs keep kesh but all Sikhs are not amritdharis. Interesting thing is sikh are not considered different from others. Many example are there when one son is hindu other one is sikh from the same father . confusing :)
    Connection with Punjab: No one has even single relative in Punjab. We don’t know what was our original location. The world pachhade means westerns . That mean we came here from west is the only clue.
    Current trend : Lot of radha-swami deras have opened and attracting people towards them . SGPC and other bodies have failed to attract people so ultimately everyone will turn Hindu here.

    Request you to please share any information that ay help me in tracing the roots. I don’t know why our ancestors came to U.P. ?



    Questions are welcome.
     
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  3. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    Indeed it could be hard problem to figure out how the community moved there. More important would be to figure out where you want to go in life. Don't be confused! :D
     
  4. OP
    bairaagi

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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    @Kanwaljit Singh :I wrote this very long post because I find it very difficult to answer the queries whenever I get in touch with people from punjab/delhi [​IMG]
    Few of them are :
    1. Your accent are very different.
    2. Why don't you know proper Punjabi ?
    3. OK , now you are in U.P. but originally from where in Punjab.

    Even they get more confused when I explain them the difference between
    Sikhs,Sardars,Amritdhari,Punjabis,Punjabi jatt , Pachade jatt and U.P. Jatt [​IMG]

    It's really a big time identity crisis .

    The main reason for this situation i feel could be : Our ancestors must be followers of gurus but they migrated to U.P. almost the same time (year ~1700) when Guru Govind singh formalized the sikh religion in the form of Khalsa. May be before Guru Govind Singh sikhism was not considered a religion formally (Please correct me if wrong). For example if some hindu was following Gurus then they would call him sikh (student) with legal religion as Hindu.

    The updated information never reached here till 1920 . But all these are my guess and may be wrong also. We are like "na idhar ke naa udhar ke."
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    Being a Sikh born and raised in Delhi, with family coming from Pakistan's Punjab and now roaming overseas, I get these questions a lot! I have no town or pind to call my own in Punjab, while many people are really attached to their ancestral village. It is OK not to have one! And it probably doesn't matter!

    How you speak Punjabi is not a problem as long as people understand you! You can expand your vocab with time if you are interested. These are trivial things. Yes trying to figure out your family history is important, but it would be possible if you ask your grandfathers where their grandfathers came from. Or some other local elders.
     
  6. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    This is so Interesting. I have some family in U.P., My eldest aunts, & their speaking IS a Little Different. Even their Customs are a little different, I've attended a few weddings, & they're not the same as in Punjab.

    However, I have to say that the people are Super friendly, & the Area, is Really Fertile. Ravines, & Fruit trees and stuff, it's very beautiful.

    Now, On to the Cultural dilemma. I think Kanwaljit Singh Ji already proved that background doesn't Mean a whole lot, doesn't matter where you're from, Sikhi is a Choice. Today, there are western Sikhs, Eastern Sikhs, White Sikhs, and brown Sikhs, it's such a huge assortment that one doesn't Need to feel out of Place.

    But for the Cultural aspect (of what you present), I know a lot of People settled in the UP Area, upon migrating from Pakistan Punjab, (my grandparents, included) & then they kinda moved back to Punjab (Gurdaspur area) later on. But for the time they were there in UP, they married two daughters there, & my Dad had his childhood there, so it's about as hodge-podgey as it can get. Lol. Myself? I grew up in India, moved here when I was a Kid, & now Im proudly Canadian. I've CHOSEN What I want to keep w/ me, on my Journey to the future & in this land. The values are a mixture or Canadian & Sikh, and SOME Punjabi Values (not all). The Point Being: (And this is my perspective Only, others are free to disagree or ignore, or even discredit, but it's my Belief ) that you decide your own path in life, whatever you want to learn or Pursue, don't let the Past bind you, b/c it may be as Unsure or non-linear as the present.

    *thumbs up*
     
    #5 Navdeep88, Oct 6, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  7. helpothers

    helpothers
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    @Bairaagi
    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki fateh

    I want to inform you that I am an engineering student living in Delhi, and fortunately getting SEWA in the Sikligar Sikh villages of Uttar Pradesh that are 100+ km away from my house.I and our team conducts regular fieldvisits to around 11 villages in western part of Uttar Pradesh ............We have a list of 52 Sikligar Sikh villages in Western Uttar Pradesh and we have also started discovering Vanjare (Sikhs) physically ,,because for long, we used to read and listen about them ...but we have started discovering them ......
    We havent been able to discover Pachhada Jats till date...........PLEASE WRITE TO ME AT theforgottensikhs@gmail.com if you actually are a Pachhada Jat and a SIKH and live in Western Uttar Pradesh as I will accomodate meeting with you in our next fieldvisit which is going to be conducted in 10 days atmost.

    AND dnt worry about Punjabi ,,,I can talk in fluent Hindi ,English and Italian , so tell me the language you are most comfortable in.

    PLEASE REPLY FAST
     
  8. OP
    bairaagi

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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    I will mail you my contact details. I live in Gurgaon so you can meet me in Delhi as well if you want. BTW the exact location of these villages is not very far from Delhi. They are spread in District Amroha (J.P. Nagar) and Moradabad mainly.
    My father and Tayaji are pretty much active in religious activities and sewa , you may get in touch with them for more clarity for our villages . My father even donated 2 Bighas of land for Gurudwara construction in our village (Ghalib Bara).
    You will be surprised to see 80 % Jat/Sikh speaking (sort of ) Punjabi in these areas of U.P.

    One more thing that confirms the originas from Punjab : Surnames : Although most of use Singh as surnames but few common are : Sahota,Sekhon,Gill,SherGill,Grewal,Kaler,Aulakh,Chahal,Cheema,Deval(Deol), Dhillon , Ghandu ,Olakh ,Uppal , Mangat , Birring etc...
     
    #7 bairaagi, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  9. prakash.s.bagga

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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    I can visualise the problem being mentioned by Mr Bairaagi ji as I also originally belong to Uttar Pradesh.
    In fact Sikhs from Punjab feel that every body should have been originally from Punjab only. This is the crux of the problem. It is surprising for me to see that why Sikhs should be classified as per their social background. A Sikh should be treated as Sikh only.Then only one can expect of some unity among Sikhs. If Sikhs remain classified and isolated
    as per their social backgound then one should look for some other better solution
    for such Sikhs.

    Prakash.S,Bagga
     
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  10. OP
    bairaagi

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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    To be honest I have never felt discriminated by other sikhs from Punjab or delhi. It is just their curiosity which I was unable to answer. They actually feel happy about this community.

    The issue I wanted to Highlight is bigger than that.
    Lot of people say that what is the need of 5 Kakars in today's world. But we can see in this example how entire community has forgotten it's own roots. Most of the people have even forgotten what they were.
    5 K are like an string today through which you can feel attached to Gurumat.
    Latest trends :
    1. Most the people have started speaking pure Hindi in new generation and no more Punjabi.
    2. People have started praying in temples.
    3. People have started believing in astrologers,kundlis and every possible superstition .
    4. Castism is at peak.
    5. Killing girl fetus is on rise.

    In short they do all the things which are against Gurumat.
     
  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Bairaagiji

    I personally find the best way to practice Sikhism is to ensure you have as few Sikhs round you as possible! lol lol

    Do not worry about what others are doing, you risk turning into a preacher.

    Concentrate on your own relationship with Guruji, hone it, understand it, it is unique and different for all of us, all we have left are our common denominators, and they must be cherished.

    what a beautiful way to describe someone, truly universal, with no preconceived ideas or history to taint understanding...........
     
  12. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    I appreciate your concern and views both.The problem is more comlex than simply as stated and the only solution is listen to the present GuRu
    and try to lead the life accordingly.
    This is more than enough.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  13. helpothers

    helpothers
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    Re: (Forgotten Sikhs)Hindus that are Sikhs/ Sikhs that are hindus.

    Thanks for replying in a prompt way.
    I have been waiting for you to send me your contact details .Please do that at the earliest.I would believe the things written in this thread by you to be true only if you send me your contact details and help and guide me to the villages you have mentioned in your post.

    Waiting for reply.
     
  14. lionprinceuk

    lionprinceuk United Kingdom
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    Very late reply from me. But could be from Nanakpanthi community.

    There are other later sikh communities such as the Satnamis.

    I think the Sikligars follow Khalsa traditions and keep turban and beard, especially from the videos on Youtube about sikligar sikhs? My knowledge is limited here.
     
  15. swarn bains

    swarn bains Canada
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    Bairaagi jee thank u for the information. here is what I think
    Banda bahadur came from hazoor sahib through that area but he did not have many soldiers with him. he just went through that area and punished some nawabs. but
    Baba Baghel singh is the one who conquered the area up to muradabaad and ram pur. he was born in amritsar district, He became the head of karoria missle. then he moved eastward. he had set up his capital at Panipat or sallaudi and operated from there. He conquered all your area in 1764. he had an army of 30000 soldiers. may be some remained behind that is what it looks like. There was a lady queen in that area who became sister of baghel singh and baghel singh came to her help time and again. He conquered Delhi in 1783 . I am definite that those sikhs came there with him during his invasions.
     
  16. swarn bains

    swarn bains Canada
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    bairaagi jee further to my comments. I am definite that those sikhs came with Baghel singh. the sub casts you mention are all jat sikhs. now many jat sikhs have settled in ram pur, nainital pilibhit at 1947 but less in Muradabad. the biggest gurdwara in that area is nanak mata, in nanital between rudarpur and khatima. there are large gurdwaras in rishikesh and hardwar as well. if your people start making links with those people and go and speak at nanak mata there will be some consolation and help . I lived in pilibhit till 1971. i know the area well. the language changes with social contacts but you are all punjabi jat sikhs came with baba Baghel singh. you should approach sgpc. generally they are no help but if you approach delhi gurdwara parbandhak committee. they will help you by send the sikh preachers and setting gurdwaras in your areas. i am excited by listening to your story. I can even be of some use though i do not live there after 1971 though I do have some land in pilibhit yet
     
  17. sukhsingh

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    Sikhs are not a ethnographic group, a amazonian tribesman can be a sikh.. Can we please raise the level of discussion.. Culture is beautiful social dynamic, sikh philosophical thought has no foundation in localisation and ethnic supremacy..
     
  18. swarn bains

    swarn bains Canada
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    ask this question to them who are feeling the pain not sitting in U.K.
     
  19. dalvindersingh grewal

    dalvindersingh grewal India
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    It is quite interesting to know about it. Sikhs migrated to other parts of country during Meer Manu's period in Punjab due to the untold miseries caused on Sikhs in Punjab and the order that all Sikhs be eliminated. Pacchade no doubt shifted en mass to UP for protection, though there is not sufficient result on them as to which exact place they migrated from. There is also no doubt that they were Sikhs and primarily the jatt community which had to face the maximum brunt of Meer Mannu's terror. More research on this needed. I will be eager to know about them and visit to carry out further research and will request the writer to share more information and message me (email removed)
     
    #18 dalvindersingh grewal, Feb 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2017
  20. sukhsingh

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    Please elaborate.. Panjabi nationalism is not the same as the oxymoron that is Sikh nationalism... Whilst panjab was the area that sikhi developed it was never exclusive to the panjab neither was it by my reckoning ever supposed to be
     
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  21. ajay36

    ajay36 United States
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    Grewal sir,

    pacchade jatts had an unfortunate history, and the truth is mostly unknown.pacchaade jats came to western UP, around 1837-40, not before that. pacchade jatts were the soldiers, who were with 'hari singh nalwa', the great sikh jatt commander, in 1837. nalwa was betrayed by gulab singh, because nalwa was the governor of kashmir, and to get kashmir it was necessary to kill nalwa. when nalwa was fighting in 1837 with 3000 [three thousand soldiers] with 50,000 + [fifty thousand plus] soldiers of afghans, several messengers were sent by nalwa for help, but the messengers got killed by gulab singh, and the message of ongoing war could not reach to ranjit singh.

    on the first day of war nalwa pushed back the huge 50000 + army of afghans with his 3000 soldiers, but in the evening [not during fight] when nalwa was walking around the fort an afghan shot him at a very close range, because a khatri soldier was the mole of gulab singh, who allowed the entry of afghan near the jattha. In several days when it became clear to nalwa that he would not survive, and even no help arrived [as the message of war could not reach ranjit singh] then he told his soldiers that go back for now. most of them were jatt soldiers; they told him that they would not leave their commander, but nalwa ordered them to go back saying that if they die with him it would go in vain, and he told them to strike back and win the rest of afghanistan. the soldiers started to return with heavy heart, because till now a considerable part of afghanistan was under ranjit singh's empire and soldiers also had their families with them at some backwards forts, and they also had the possession over land their.

    now when the moles informed gulab singh of the death of nalwa, he informed ranjit singh the nalwa got killed, and he also told him that the soldiers of nalwa had betrayed nalwa, and joined hands with afghans. ranjit singh was furious, and he sent the forces to kill and capture these 3000 soldiers who were returning .these 3000 soldiers were utterly surprised when they got to know the farman of their capture and kill, and some of them were captured and killed. seeing no other way, the remained soldiers took their way towards india hideously on the hinges of Panjab, because going through mainland Panjab meant that they would be killed. The entire Punjab was furious because they thought that these soldiers had betrayed nalwa, so even on the hinges [outskirts of Punjab] as soon as people got to know about them people attacked them, so these soldiers kept moving but they could not go to sindh as it was desert, so they moved towards jaipur side by side. Before Jaipur, these soldiers had to fight on the outskirts of malwa panjab, then they had to fight at jaipur with jatts of malwa panjab. a bloody fight took place at jaipur where the second in command of these soldiers got killed, and even other side suffered a lot.

    It was only after reaching western up the soldiers could settle down, because sikhis empire expanded around current day haryana border only, and they were safe.

    There soldiers were PACCHADE JATT. they were called pachade not because they they came from west but because this name literally was 'pashade', which was accusingly given to them to insult them as pashai is a tribe in afghanistan which was traditionally considered as low.

    This is the truth of pachhade jatts, and it also explains, why many panjabis dislike them, and why we don't have a single relative in Panjab, and why there was no communication with Panjab.

    Later on most of these sikh jatts converted to hinduism. Some of our grandfather, great grandfather tell us that when they left afghanistan and their commander nalwa, almost every soldier was weeping [jad afghanistan te aaye ta ronde hoye hi aaye] .

    And, the promise to capture back afghanistan and avenge the martyrdom of commander Nalwa is still unfulfilled.

    And, there are some of them like me, who have to technically write themselves as hindus [no disrespect to hinduism] but who fell like Sikh, whose blood has Sikhi, and who will possibly go back to their original faith Sikhism.

    It is the story of pachade jatts, who were despised by their own Jatt brothers on the false accusation of betrayal.

    NOTE- I spell it Panjab rather than Punjab.
     
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