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Education: The Only Survival For Sikhi

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Education: The Only Survival For Sikhi

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
257
334
First I thought that I would ignore it but later the urge to correct the situation for everybody,s benefit overpowered me.
So,
My line quoted above is taken out of context... not as much as Raajiv Gandhi used to claim:yes:..... remember?....
If you are just joking... it is fine but it does not seem so.
Read the whole and get whole picture..eduacated people are on a different level . It may be taken as ego by some.
let us focus on main discussion.
All said and done... education does and will bring a change.
For example, even if Sukhbir is Prakash ji's son, there will be different approach. I am not saying senior in uneducated but the style is different.
A bookish knowledge does not make an educated person for sure, but chances are that it does.
After all so many so called eduacted people are also involved at SGPC, Akali Dal.... and SAD( A):yes:.... the result is for you to see.
Simaranjit Mann MAY have some good ideas but implementation part and consequently the people who associate with him are poor . An IPS at such level... you need to have good leadership qualities and able to judge the results of your action.
I can not be a good leader beacause I can not control my people.
That is why leaders of ANY organisation( a business, political party etc) is rewarded heavily. It is the education part which makes difference in SPN and other sites. OMG
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,029
7,158
Henderson, NV.
May be an educated person will never try to become a raagi or bhai ji because educated people are the most egoistic people on earth more than who have money.They always
want white collar jobs and when these jobs are not available they just sit idle

Kanwardeep Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

And the other side of the coin is that if we paid well to the Raagis and the Bhais provided we gave them the venues to develop through education in Gurmat, language skills so they do not have to look in front of their harmonium how much money the Sangat is giving them, I am sure we will have better and devout Raagis and Bhais and these would become white collar jobs and Gurmat studies by both would help all who interact with them.

In order to happen this, we need educated people above them who hold the donations which give them power. Education should breed open- mindedness which must lead to honesty as the SGGS, our only Guru teaches us.

Tejwant Singh
 

ballym

SPNer
May 19, 2006
257
334
I agree. People need to be educated. People also need to be educated about Sikhi. All Sikhs should study gurbani and educate themselves about their religion.
I was watching and listening to radio program Gurbani in Toronto where one Mr. Gurbachan singh ( Thailand) stated in the very beginning.... an uneducated quom has no future.
When you do not even have information, how can you make judgement?
Our people are good at work and are daring. They go anywhere in the world and make a living, but on reading part, they still lack requisite level.
Have you noticed that all Pro dasam Granth people/ orgs. put their views, do not allow open discussion, treat others as somewhat lower than them( a trait common with hindu sharma elite community). No education or discussion.
If someone preaches common people something, they start believing it without judging it .
Another funny remark made by people is that Guru nanak also used 84 lakh, Ram.... etc so we are same as Hindu......while he just explained it to common people in their language.
I know that it is best way when we teach someone in their own language.... and why should it come to my mind that I should not use these words because people will misinterpret them later.....OH I have to start something new so I should not use any common word or personality. people will misinterpret!!!

People are trying to suggest now that Guru Nanak should have been a cunning person and not a simple preacher of much needed reforms which blossomed into a religion despite brutal opposition.

Only education and understanding will bring good results. An industrious population is available for free.Sikh has become a bad word. Even our own people disown their people.
Instead we should have pride in our religion.
 
Oct 29, 2010
163
172
76
Dear Tejwant Singh,
I thank you for starting the thread - I have tried to chip in a number of times but this seems the best time to discuss a few points.
"The only solution to save our Sikhi from disaster is EDUCATION"
I agree EDUCATION is the solution - however what do we teach? Please note Guru Granth Sahib is not point to start at - it is the ending point!
Guru Nanak did not have the Granth Sahib but he followed a few very simple ideas to be true to yourself and to the Lord, Not to to hurt other humans (life), Helping the needy, and Sharing the wealth (this is knowledge and resources)
We have lost about 300 years to solidify our base of faith and knowledge but it has been muddied by by people quoting ununderstandable quotes (may be from the Granth Sahib) and we think they are all high and mighty and fail to follow the basics.
The EDUCATION required is in these basic principles so that anybody can share the teachings of the clergy and ask if they practice it and how? Guru Nanak did!
Having arguments about Guru Granth Sahib teachings (or discussions) are secondary - mattha take to these clergy should be for the practical helpful knowledge they impart - try looking at the contribution of "Sant Balbir Singh Seechawal"
A Phd may be able to contribute but if they can why are we having difficulties with interpreting some basic ardas wording like 'bhagauti' and we are ready to form different groups because of understanding? Thanks Phds!
As already mentioned our Gurus 2-10 all practiced the basics also I am not sure I would call them Phds but building 'sermonal castles' on Guru Granth Sahib teachings, which majority do not understand, is doing disservice to Sikhism when the teachers do not practice the basic requirements of the religion.
By the way has anybody tried to follow these basic principles (I may have missed some) I find them very difficult however I do not forgive myself and keep trying!
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,179
davinderdhanjal ji

Here is only a partial quote of your remarks overall -- the entire post really engaged me.

A Phd may be able to contribute but if they can why are we having difficulties with interpreting some basic ardas wording like 'bhagauti' and we are ready to form different groups because of understanding? Thanks Phds!
As already mentioned our Gurus 2-10 all practiced the basics also I am not sure I would call them Phds but building 'sermonal castles' on Guru Granth Sahib teachings, which majority do not understand, is doing disservice to Sikhism when the teachers do not practice the basic requirements of the religion.
If I am understanding your point, then you are noting something that has bothered me a lot lately.

There are Gurbani scholars, schooled in language, religion, history teaching in universities. Who knows what they lecture, or what journals they publish in? With a few exceptions their conversations are unknown and invisible to the average person. They are talking to one another, scholar to scholar. Do they realize that their knowledge is for the most part inaccessible, even unknown and unknowable, unless one has the tools to dig it out and the circumstances to approach them personally?

Then there are the babas who preach based on who knows what sources? Is their offering reliable? Can we trust it?

In between these poles is a gap - a big gap - filled by earnest people, often very educated in a field unrelated to Gurbani or religion, who have dedicated their lives to informing the panth about Sikh history, theology, etc. These are the people who make the fruits of their labor available to the rest of us, and they ask for nothing in return. And these are also the people who are often reviled in the media and on the Internet by fanatics.

It is distressing to say the least.
 
Oct 29, 2010
163
172
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Thank you spnadmin,

I think we may be on the same track. Like you I puzzle over similar predicaments.

I read a note from Rani_vancouver in this forum where she is to spend her own hard earned cash to get some literature translated and she was looking for some translators. She is willing to do the major part of the manipulation and publishing herself - I find that very commendable. And after translation - it will be a generous person who would share the the results with all!

It however seemed very odd to me that after 300 years since Guru Gobind Singh - there is not a structure that a faithful can follow to get a translation done with confidence - individuals still have to translate the Punjabi literature by themselves and have difficulty finding reliable translators. Is there is no established path to achieve this?

If there is not then the infrastructure needs upgrading rather than efforts of individuals being scattered and possibly repeated.

Would it not be proper and rightful to have a central authority to provide this facility?

After discussing this with friends - they believe Patiala University and Guru Nanak university are the two man seats for this. Now - I guess we may need to use both seats to get a reasonable translation and its verification?

Our Gurdwara committee gets so much funding from Sikhs and others - is it unreasonable to expect them to be able to provide an infrastructure with this as one of the services - and if they did could we trust them or do we go back to Maculiffe's of yester years to do this for us? (It was

If we can establish how the Granth Sahib and other main scriptures are or were translated we may be able to improve or publicise the route for all. Is there a way to contact these authorities?

Does federal or state governments have any input into this? Liberaries dedicated to scriptures?

Do you find that when one tries to get to the basics of the problems - a very few contributors actually participate? I am pleased you responded the way you did.

I wonder if it is because they feel it is a dead end route or if they consider it to be a taboo subject of may be there would be a backlash if they participated?

To my reckoning it takes a lot of hard work. It needs to locate the sources of information and allow contribution of the interested parties to be made public and appreciated and information deseminated.

I also think a forum dedicated to the subject may be necessary.

I leave it at this for the present till you consider if it is also worth it.
 

Sikhilove

Writer
SPNer
May 12, 2016
608
160
Hi

People should understand Gurbani instead of just repeating it. Merely repeating it, you could be reading a recipe for soup!
 

dalvindersingh grewal

Writer
Historian
SPNer
Jan 3, 2010
519
352
74
VaheguruSeekr ji

It will be very interesting to see what responses you receive. Not just here in the forum --- but let's say you float this idea in other venues. What do you think the response will be? :confused: I don't know about the need for a Ph.D. -- but some level of formal training in Sikh philosophy and theology would seem right.

And do you think politics would leave the arena? Or would politics remain but become subtler, crafty? HMMM ;) Maybe harder to spot right off? Maybe more difficult to face down in the breach?
Sikhism is based in continuous learner since a 'Sikh' is fundamentally a learner. Our Gurdwaras and mothers at home have been wanting in this since they are the primary sources for giving the young the knowledge of SIKHI. Only kirtan will not do; we have also to incorporate teaching of Sikh value system in programmes at Gurdwaras and also mothers almost must take on themselves to tell short stories about the Sikh events like the discussions Guru Nanak had with various evil people during his travels and of Gur Tegh Bahadur, Sahibzada's Baba Banda Singh, Bhai Mani Singh martyrdom. Our history is very rich and has lot of moral lessons to learn. Also in our school syllabus Sikhi must be duly inculcated again. it was gradually removed during the Congress rule but have not been reintroduced till now despite of pleas to the government.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,761
8,154
50
Sikhism is based in continuous learner since a 'Sikh' is fundamentally a learner.
In my view we can only learn from ourselves, as our experiences are all different as is our outlook, so our conclusions will also be different.

Our Gurdwaras and mothers at home have been wanting in this since they are the primary sources for giving the young the knowledge of SIKHI.
Our Gurdwaras are all geared towards the common denominator, and are nothing more than social meeting places where little contemplation or understanding takes place.

Only kirtan will not do; we have also to incorporate teaching of Sikh value system in programmes at Gurdwaras and also mothers almost must take on themselves to tell short stories about the Sikh events like the discussions Guru Nanak had with various evil people during his travels and of Gur Tegh Bahadur, Sahibzada's Baba Banda Singh, Bhai Mani Singh martyrdom
I would suggest something a bit more concrete than the discussion of Sakhis which may or may not have taken place, with conclusions that are not compatible with Sikhism. Some would say Baba Banda Singh split Sikhism, and destroyed every building and living thing in Sirhind, what can be learned from this?
Our history is very rich and has lot of moral lessons to learn. Also in our school syllabus Sikhi must be duly inculcated again. it was gradually removed during the Congress rule but have not been reintroduced till now despite of pleas to the government.
which Sikhi? the nirankari version? the namdhari one? the nihang one? the 3HO one? the one that states no idol worship, no images, then fills its temples with pictures? maybe one of the ones that likes a good candle lighting ceremony? one of the ones that observe the full moon?

I am afraid forget education, really, forget it, educate in what? the age old traditional Sikhism with its attitude towards women and caste? I think the youngsters will find their own way on their own, they will refine, lets hope they do a better job
 

dalvindersingh grewal

Writer
Historian
SPNer
Jan 3, 2010
519
352
74
Why is the responsibility to perpetuate tradition, religion, and morality placed overwhelmingly on women?
Mother remains the strongest force to influence a child. Mother is not considered here is a mere woman. Mother is much more for a child than a woman.
 

RD1

Writer
SPNer
Sep 26, 2016
361
150
Mother remains the strongest force to influence a child. Mother is not considered here is a mere woman. Mother is much more for a child than a woman.
That is a traditional gender role. Regardless of how involved a father chooses to be in his child's life, he has just as much influence on the child as the mother. Perhaps one thing that needs to change (in general) is for fathers to step up and take on more responsibility in raising their children, and educating their children on Sikhi as well, rather than putting it disproportionately on the mother.
 

Loveisthereason

Writer
SPNer
Apr 7, 2019
29
2
39
Being educated is just one facet. Every quom including all great world powers are yearning for the same thing, a "sanjhi nishani", a composite identity which is shared therefore accepted. You have lost the plot if you think that it is just the Sikh community which is left wanting. All over the world leadership is undermined and discredited from before its inception, ideas are exploited by lobbyists and the wealthy, chance is curbed by hidden forces, and you think its the Sikh community which is under threat? I think I am lucky to have tasted the sweet love of SIKHI before the advent of this decay, I still remember the passion and zeal of the uneducated, before such stupid propositions were meaningful. And that's the problem, there is supposed to be an unbroken link from one age to the next, its still saturated in punjab despite the decay, but as someone who lives in the diaspora that link is broken in increasing numbers and is being broken further by broken intellectuals. Sorry to say that. Its not the competency of seeing the bigger picture that is our greatest asset, its seeing all things at once.
 

swarn bains

Poet
SPNer
Apr 9, 2012
496
139
very interesting proposition. i know that phd type people work in harmandir sahib but they are librarians. you can select some from there. next question ; no one wants his or her son become a raagi. that means only those who have no where to go learn how to singh sabads and songs. how can anyone replace that. money is the major factor for getting phd. so for the raggis are not paid but they get money from what the sangat donates. for instance i am the one with no serious education. majority of the people in this world are such. where would they go. the proposition is very good but the solution just as difficult
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
SPNer
Nov 5, 2010
509
303
47
Sat Sri Akaal,

What kind of Education.

Doctor with a lust, Administrator with Anger, Engineer wth a Greed, Intellact with arrogance are worst combinations of education and emotion.
Spider/ Termites/ Birds/ makes home with precise engineering. How/Who develop and
pass on skills to next generation.
Animals reproduce without hospitals, how they get skills.

Humans with lost awareness, need to enquire skills. But inherited emotions, who have no correlation with outer world, as is creation of own mind, only with tamed emotions, humans can be valued.
So education which helps in taming false emotions is needed.

With this we have initiated a 45 minutes daily and regular program at Bhai Jaita Ji Foundation Chandigarh, providing free training to intelligent economically weaker section of Punjab, for 90 students of 10th to 12th. It is voluntary program.

Hope it resolves the Mission of value base education.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Loveisthereason

Writer
SPNer
Apr 7, 2019
29
2
39
I want to talk a little about leadership today and who the buck really lies with, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, however. Having worked for an official organisation and many other companies there is a common theme which runs through these which is also the problem with our Sikh organisations. Having the right people in the right places is vital to an effective output. One of the things I notice is that corporations and public organisations recruit and promote individuals who lack stimulatory communication skills, its just people who do the job, there is always a balance of people in leadership who can either have hard conversations or keep their heads down. Almost all issues are tied into this problem.

Take racism in the workplace, this is no longer a workplace or country specific issue it occurs through partnerships of equals across organisations and international tie ups . It cannot be tackled through in-house initiatives any more , it has created a behind the scenes cloak within 3rd party interactions.

Our Sikh organisations are the same, diversity of opinion is not welcomed, we should encourage the voice of people who have different views even if we don't personally agree with them, instead rigid boundaries are created across international networks to sideline perceived opposition. Then this creates bitterness and divisive policy. That policy grows with time to produce an irreconcilable situation with people on both sides of the fence asking "what do we do now?".

Staff/sewadar intentions is what suffers due to not having the right people in the right places. Look at how many individuals are either fired or resign in the Trump administration, this administration is an excellent case study for revealing the massive underestimated significance of colleague intention. One side thinks they have discarded and replaced the problem, the other side thinks they have escaped and moved on to better things. In almost all cases no-one says we've lost a good employee or that I lost a good job, why is that? Because the intentions were never for the success of the business, this is what having the wrong person in the wrong jobs does. People come in, go through the motions, realise there is no environment, take flight.

I've used the word environment because that is what a workspace should be, a vibrant and stimulating place where people can innovative and produce the new and next thing. However when you don't have the right people in the right places any exchange of ideas is stolen to further the ambitions of dull and empty parasites who occupy a position for that very same intention. The majority of inventions and advances in organisations are made by people who are stuck behind a person who should never have been in the position they hold. They are exploited and by the time they realise that the credit has been taken by the wrong person they leave with no recognition. This is what really happens.

Our Sikh organisations have a problem with recognising people more often than not posthumously, or not recognising them at all. Think about how many scholars, singers, ragis, artists etc there have been which we have learnt from, we have enjoyed over the past, we know they had exceptional talent, vision and a huge record of output but they were never acknowledged where it mattered most to us, our central Sikh body. There is also something to be said about such stellar individuals in our panth, they never expected anything from us for their massive contributions, they never waited to be involved in any form of participation that would showcase their talents, they continued to produce and deliver like tidal waves their skills in the face of poverty, despotism, insurgency and all the other plights of Indian society.

Freedom of speech is the only tool left for political engagement, elections don't make a difference, civil disobedience does not make a difference, terrorism does not work. On the other side sanctions, discrediting, war, operations don't work. Etc etc. Freedom of speech needs more protection today than it ever has before. Humans are being diminished to the level of algorithms. Narratives are increasingly shaped by corporations, we are even made to look at human intentions as something that needs to be exposed as opposed to understood. In that aim one can stand tall and say "I have a leader which wasn't my fault". This I believe captures the sentiment of the masses who abide within all structures with the culture I have described.
 
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ravneet_sb

Writer
SPNer
Nov 5, 2010
509
303
47
Sat Sri Akaal,

After conclusion and decisions, righteous is that leads to action.

How we involve self,
ourself (family and friends)
and greater self (resources gifted by nature)

how much energy (finance, effort, space) that matters.

lets it be the EDUCATION i.e.

the spirit of GURU's BANI

Jini NAAM Dhayay, pragat guran ki bani (Sorry for not writting DEH)

Jo Prabh Ko Milbo Chahein

Who wants to realise GOD

Khoj Shabad Meni Leh

Can found in GURU's BANI

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

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