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Hinduism Does Sikhism Confirm The Existence Of Hindu Gods/Goddesses?

Aug 28, 2010
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The whole Hindu Philosophy is based on Mythological presentation for knowing the Creator of the universe.The figures of these mythologies have deep rooted intrisic meanings which are beyond the understanding of any common person.
We do find the references of these figures of Mythologies in SGGS but these references have been clarified in terms of the word GuRUandor GuR.In other words Gurbaani connects us with the Creator of the universe thru GuR of Gurbaani which is the most simple and direct way without involvement of complicated rituals.
Unfortunately we Sikhs also try to adopt the rituals almost similar to Hindu practice.
We should therefore try to consolidate the real messages of Gurbaani so that we remain
free from unnecessary practices and rituals.We should stick to the inherent philosophy of SGGS .
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

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Kanwaljitji,

what do you mean there is no santa claus?????, who do you think leaves all the presents in my house every christmass??????

Badshahji,

Although I too found your question a bit naive, I suppose it is only by asking questions we learn, and I have learned something from this, although, thinking about it, it seems obvious, but the depiction of Hindu gods of having physical qualities to represent strength, wisdom etc seems logical, I know very little about hinduism, but it does seem to have a manifestation of god for every occasion, I wonder though what Hanuman and Ganesh are supposed to depict.

Ambarsariaji,

When I was younger, I bought a very detailed book about the life of Guru Gobind Singh, I cannot remember the author, although I do remember it had a plain pink cover!

However, I remember a chapter on Guru Gobind Singh attempting to carry out a Hindu Ceremony in an attempt to invoke the spirit of a Hindu Goddess. I cannot remember whether he was doing such to prove that the ceremony would not work, or whether he did to appease the Hindu folk, apologies if I have got this completely wrong

must find book!
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Harry Ji,
That story is like this. The Brahmins among the Sikhs in Anandpur Sahib insisted that Guru Ji Hold a big Yagg/Havan to appease the Goddess BHAGUTEE (the one riding a lion and multiple arms ) to empower the Khalsa he was going to create. Guru Ji agreed. Tons of Havan stuff..ghee and what not was arranged for and the Brahmins began the ceremony...BUT the DEVI DID NOT materialise...so the CHIEF PANDIT said that the DEVI will definitley materialsie in perosn..IF she was offered a HUMAN SACRIFICE of a suitable innocent clean soul. He suggested one of the Four sahibzadahs...Guru Ji replied..the sahibzadahs are just kids..whay NOT YOURSELF ?? After all when the DEVI appears the Very First Boon we will ask her is for YOU to Come back to life !! The pandit agreed and said we will do it tomorrow night. The next night at the appointed time the Pandit was no where to be found...and Guru Ji told his Sikhs..see for yourself..the TRUTH. OK Now lets throw all this havan stuff in the Bonfire and go home...when all the ghee and stuff was thrown on the fire..it Roared up skywards..and the people far away thought..OH the DEVI has shown up..and blessed Guru ji.. This story is concoted to prove that the GURU was adevotee of teh DEVI and the KHALSA is actually the DEVI's CREATION via her BOON !!
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Harry Haller ji,

Hanumaan is considered to be part of Shiv and Ganesh manifests word OM.
All the figures in Hinu Mythology basically represent a specific wave which is the ultimate concept of the philosophy,
Hindu philosophy is based on trinity or three major figures together responsible for the whole game plan of the universe.This trinity is created from Onkaar.

Sikh philosophy on the other hand is based on the concept of a creator prior to creation of Onkaar or trinity,This concept makes the Sikh philosophy a unique one and quite different from Hindu philosophy.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Harry Haller

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Gyaniji,

Many thanks for your answer, the book went into quite a lot of detail, but I seem to recall that was the gist of the ending now you mention it.

What I love about the Gurus, and Guru Gobind Singh in particular is the humour, specifically the gallows humour, designed to weed out the lies, not by forceful debate, or argument, just simple statements given I am sure, with a gentle smile and a twinkle in the eye.

Now we just need to sort out the santa issue, and I will be a happy bunny
 
Aug 28, 2010
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Giani Jarnail Singh Ji,
I would like to mention an important part of the story of taking the blessings of Goddes as suggested by a Pandit.It goes like this

The temple of the incidence is known Nainaa Devis and is situated near Anand pur Sahib. in Punjab.
It is stated about the incidence that all the material was thrown in the fire of Havan in Single shot huge and long flames came out and people were feared to see such an incidence never seen before.
At this point Guru Gobind Singh ji took out Siri Sahib ji and showed to the people that the real Devi is this and this is going to protect you all, So Siri Shib ji was refered as BHAGAOTI .
Guru Gobind Singh ji virtually removed the confusion of the gathering about the coming out of any such Devi and gave true knowledge about Devi in actual life.
This is just an extension of your views .
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ishna

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I have some sympathy for badshah ji since I have been mulling over asking a similar question myself the last couple of weeks. I would not like to be called naive.

What I write is my personal opinion, I haven't tested my theory or read enough to really know. But it may provide other avenues to develop the discussion.

In this thread, I got the impression that So Dar is a shabad which paints a stunning picture of creation as it is an amazing symphony in praise of the Creator. Like a whole heap of dishes made by the Great Chef. Like a whole ton of different musical instruments, all playing their music following the Great Conductor. I apologise if I lack understanding and haven't got the message of the earlier thread.

But check out the tuks in Green...

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
So ḏar rāg āsā mėhlā 1
So Dar ~ That Door. Raag Aasaa, First Mehl:

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ
So ḏar ṯerā kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.
Where is That Door of Yours and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all?

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਵਾਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
vāje ṯere nāḏ anek asankẖā keṯe ṯere vāvaṇhāre.
The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there for You, and countless musicians play all sorts of instruments there for You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
Keṯe ṯere rāg parī si▫o kahī▫ahi keṯe ṯere gāvaṇhāre.
There are so many Ragas and musical harmonies to You; so many minstrels sing hymns of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno pavaṇ pāṇī baisanṯar gāvai rājā ḏẖaram ḏu▫āre.
Wind, water and fire sing of You. The Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno cẖiṯ gupaṯ likẖ jāṇan likẖ likẖ ḏẖaram bīcẖāre.
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno īsar barahmā ḏevī sohan ṯere saḏā savāre.
Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned by You, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno inḏar inḏarāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.
Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਾਧ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno siḏẖ samāḏẖī anḏar gāvan ṯuḏẖno sāḏẖ bīcẖāre.
The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvan ṯuḏẖno vīr karāre.
The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno pandiṯ paṛan rakẖīsur jug jug veḏā nāle.
The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno mohṇī▫ā man mohan surag macẖẖ pa▫i▫āle.
The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in paradise, in this world, and in the underworld of the subconscious, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno raṯan upā▫e ṯere aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nāle.
The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno joḏẖ mahābal sūrā gāvan ṯuḏẖno kẖāṇī cẖāre.
The brave and mighty warriors sing of You. The spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਧਾਰੇ
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno kẖand mandal barahmandā kar kar rakẖe ṯere ḏẖāre.
The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ
Se▫ī ṯuḏẖno gāvan jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvan raṯe ṯere bẖagaṯ rasāle.
They alone sing of You, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with Your Sublime Essence.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
Hor keṯe ṯuḏẖno gāvan se mai cẖiṯ na āvan Nānak ki▫ā bīcẖāre.
So many others sing of You, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I think of them all?

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ
So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.
That True Lord is True, forever True, and True is His Name.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī racẖnā jin racẖā▫ī.
He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ
Rangī rangī bẖāṯī kar kar jinsī mā▫i▫ā jin upā▫ī.
He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ
Kar kar ḏekẖai kīṯā āpṇā ji▫o ṯis ḏī vadi▫ā▫ī.
Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so▫ī karsī fir hukam na karṇā jā▫ī.
He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
So pāṯisāhu sāhā paṯisāhib Nānak rahaṇ rajā▫ī. ||1||
He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||1|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
My personal interpretation of this has been an acknowledgement of the existence of these deities just as acknowledgement of the other countless things within Creation, under GOD, the KING.

So even if they do/did exist, they mean no more than bears or fish or wind or celibates or music or stars, etcetc. They are Creation same as you and me and we are ALL under the command of THE BIG ONE.

My ancestral background doesn't include Hindu deities, so when I read this I extend the interpretation to the Norse Gods, the Greek Gods, the Celtic Gods...

But their influence is nothing compared to Waheguru's influence. What they do is what It commands them to do. They can't liberate us.

Also, I've read that where Brahma, Shiva and Indra are mentioned in shabads, it can be read as 'creation' 'destruction' and 'preservation' as forces which helps to de-personalise those gods.

But why bother about worrying about it, when all you have to do is think about Waheguru, Naam, Hukam? Those gods become small, you become small, and all there really is is God.

I liked what Confused said about them being within the confines of time. Isn't that what Chaupai also says?

ਕਾਲ ਪਾਇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਾ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਪਾਇ ਸ਼ਿਵਜੂ ਅਵਤਰਾ ॥
काल पाइ ब्रहमा बपु धरा ॥ काल पाइ शिवजू अवतरा ॥
In due time Brahma appeared in physical form; in due time Shiva incarnated;

ਕਾਲ ਪਾਇ ਕਰਿ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ਾ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਕਾਲ ਕਾ ਕੀਯਾ ਤਮਾਸ਼ਾ ॥੩੮੩॥
काल पाइ करि बिशन प्रकाशा ॥ सकल काल का कीया तमाशा ॥३८३॥
In due time Vishnu manifested himself; all this is the play of the Temporal Lord.383.

ਜਵਨ ਕਾਲ ਜੋਗੀ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਕੀਯੋ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਰਾਜ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੂ ਥੀਯੋ ॥
जवन काल जोगी शिव कीयो ॥ बेद राज ब्रहमा जू थीयो ॥
The Temporal Lord, who created Shiva, the Yogi; who created Brahma, the Master of the Vedas;

ਜਵਨ ਕਾਲ ਸਭ ਲੋਕ ਸਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਮਸ਼ਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਾਹਿ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩੮੪॥
जवन काल सभ लोक सवारा ॥ नमशकार है ताहि हमारा ॥३८४॥
The Temporal Lord who fashioned the entire world; I salute the same Lord.384.

ਜਵਨ ਕਾਲ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਬਨਾਯੋ ॥ ਦੇਵ ਦੈਤ ਜੱਛਨ ਉਪਜਾਯੋ ॥
जवन काल सभ जगत बनायो ॥ देव दैत ज्छन उपजायो ॥
The Temporal Lord, who created the whole world; who created gods, demons and yakshas;

ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਏਕੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ ਸੋਈ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਮਝਿਯਹੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩੮੫॥
आदि अंति एकै अवतारा ॥ सोई गुरू समझियहु हमारा ॥३८५॥
He is the only one form the beginning to the end; I consider Him only my Guru.385.

Please excuse my ignorance, sorry if I'm leading others up the garden path!!

Ishna
 
Aug 28, 2010
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ISHNA Ji,
I reallyappreciate the contents of your above messages.Most of the views are crux of the Sikh Philosophy.
God/Goddess as refered in Sikh philosophy are just executives of the Creator.From Gurbaani we only know that we should connect ourselves with the Creator then these executives will automatically do all the jobs for you as per direction from the Creator.And this way one can lead his life in pleasure because one can know anything happening is as per direction of the Creator.

Prakash.s.bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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ISHNA Ji,
I reallyappreciate the contents of your above messages.Most of the views are crux of the Sikh Philosophy.
God/Goddess as refered in Sikh philosophy are just executives of the Creator.From Gurbaani we only know that we should connect ourselves with the Creator then these executives will automatically do all the jobs for you as per direction from the Creator.And this way one can lead his life in pleasure because one can know anything happening is as per direction of the Creator.

Prakash.s.bagga
Prakash.S.Baga ji you are not serious about the following that I quote from your post,

God/Goddess as refered in Sikh philosophy are just executives of the Creator.From Gurbaani we only know that we should connect ourselves with the Creator then these executives will automatically do all the jobs for you as per direction from the Creator.

Guru jis and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji did/do not appoint any God/Goddess executive(s). That is plain and simple Hinduism.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Gurbani references to people's common understandings of God and Goddesses is a way to show the people fallacy of the Hindu mythologies including all their Gods and Godesses. This is what shut down the Brahmin shops where Sikhism took hold. Brahmins have not forgotten and the comments like above must be a point of great joy to see Sikhs claiming great knowledge of Gurbani talking about Gods and Godesses as Executives or intermediaries between the creator and poor Guruji's Sikhs.
Sorry unless I am mis-reading your post, this I find quite disturbing. Apologies if I am reading it other than the way it is written.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

spnadmin

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I would tend to agree with Ambarsaria ji on this point. The devtas mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are really not instruments of the Sat, nor executives of the Sat, nor are they idealized representations of spiritual states, nor are they sevadhars of the Sat. They are embedded in shabads where Gurus were teaching, with many shabads indeed linked to Guru Nanak's travels through India. They are cited because Gurusahiban were speaking to followers of these devtas, and teaching a different perspective, a more liberating perspective. Always with respect Guruji addresses these Hindu images of godliness, NEVER with scorn and ridicule, BUT when we look at the rehao lines and the closing tuks of the shabads we discover that these are not propaganda for an interfaith merging of some kind.
 

spnadmin

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Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at an actual shabad. There is more to the vichaar than meets the eye.

I am going to throw out just a few questions? Once one digests the Hindu "myth", the elephant in this shabad has been rescued by Vishnu riding on the eagle Garuda. Do we seriously think that Guru Ram Das considers Vishnu and Garuda to be executives of the Sat? In looking at both the rehao line and the closing tuks, what is the message? If we think about it, the rest is context for the message. It takes some digging to know what the use of Jagannath signifies. Some research is needed. But does anyone seriously think that Jagannath is "one of the names of God" , as is so often claimed? The shabad says to prasie the Lord of the Universe, not Lord Jagannath.

(btw, This week begins pilgrimages and devotions in central India to Lord Jagannath, his brother and sister. Interestingly, in these processions, elephants are the first of sentient creatures to be given darshan of his image. Only an FYI.)

ਨਟ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
नट महला ४ ॥
Nat mėhlā 4.
Nat, Fourth Mehl:

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨੇ ॥
Mere man jap har har nām mane.
O my mind, believe in and chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਬਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jagannāth kirpā parabẖ ḏẖārī maṯ gurmaṯ nām bane. ||1|| rahā▫o.
God, the Master of the Universe, has showered His Mercy upon me, and through the Guru's Teachings, my intellect has been molded by the Naam. ||1||Pause||

ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਇਓ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸੁਨੇ ॥
Har jan har jas har har gā▫i▫o upḏes gurū gur sune.
The Lord's humble servant sings the Praises of the Lord, Har, Har, listening to the Guru's Teachings.

ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਟੇ ਜਿਵ ਖੇਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਾਨਿ ਲੁਨੇ ॥੧॥ ने ॥१॥
Kilbikẖ pāp nām har kāte jiv kẖeṯ kirsān lune. ||1||
The Lord's Name cuts down all sins, like the farmer cutting down his crops. ||1||

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਉਪਮਾ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਹਮ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨੇ ॥
Ŧumrī upmā ṯum hī parabẖ jānhu ham kahi na sakahi har gune.
You alone know Your Praises, God; I cannot even describe Your Glorious Virtues, Lord.

ਜੈਸੇ ਤੁਮ ਤੈਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਗੁਨ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪੁਨੇ ॥੨॥
Jaise ṯum ṯaise parabẖ ṯum hī gun jānhu parabẖ apune. ||2||
You are what You are, God; You alone know Your Glorious Virtues, God. ||2||

ਮਾਇਆ ਫਾਸ ਬੰਧ ਬਹੁ ਬੰਧੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਓ ਖੁਲ ਖੁਲਨੇ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā fās banḏẖ baho banḏẖe har japi▫o kẖul kẖulne.
The mortals are bound by the many bonds of Maya's noose. Meditating on the Lord, the knot is untied,

ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਕੁੰਚਰੁ ਤਦੂਐ ਬਾਂਧਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਖਨੇ ॥੩॥
Ji▫o jal kuncẖar ṯaḏū▫ai bāʼnḏẖi▫o har cẖeṯi▫o mokẖ mukẖne. ||3||
like the elephant, which was caught in the water by the crocodile; it remembered the Lord, and chanted the Lord's Name, and was released. ||3||

ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗਨੇ ॥
Su▫āmī pārbarahm parmesar ṯum kẖojahu jug jugne.
O my Lord and Master, Supreme Lord God, Transcendent Lord, throughout the ages, mortals search for You.

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਥਾਹ ਪਾਈ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਵਡਨੇ ॥੪॥੫॥
Ŧumrī thāh pā▫ī nahī pāvai jan Nānak ke parabẖ vadne. ||4||5||
Your extent cannot be estimated or known, O Great God of servant Nanak. ||4||5||
 

Ishna

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So, does Sikhi denounce the existence of gods/goddesses entirely, or does it put them at an insignificant position with relation to Waheguru, just like the rest of creation?

If it denounces their existence entirely, how do we interpret passages like So Dar (posted earlier)?

And Japji, where it is said that the Guru is Brahma, Indra, Shiva, etc?

Also in response to SPNadmin's queries, no, I don't think the gods mentioned are "executives" of the Sat. Gods, if they exist at all, would be under hukam like everything in creation. But I don't see why a Sikh needs to concern him/herself about them. Myths are stories used to explain phenomena which aren't fully understood at the time, or stories to teach people who don't understand, or to control people... I don't think myths are evidence of the existence of gods... the parts of SGGS which talk about myths I can put into context... but statements like the So Dar part confuse the crap out of me.

Thanks
Ishna
 

spnadmin

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ishna ji

This I think is the point in a nutshell

But I don't see why a Sikh needs to concern him/herself about them.

In my humble opinion Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Gurusahiban did not denounce, they tried to give us a peek at another way of taking darshan of the Lord of the Universe. As well

or does it put them at an insignificant position with relation to Waheguru, just like the rest of creation?

in my opinion, the position of devtas neither significant nor insignificant. The problem lay within the way in which Vedic scriptures turned our attention away from listening to the Lord of Creation. Here Guru Ram Das ji is saying

ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗਨੇ ॥
Su▫āmī pārbarahm parmesar ṯum kẖojahu jug jugne.
O my Lord and Master, Supreme Lord God, Transcendent Lord, throughout the ages, mortals search for You.

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਥਾਹ ਪਾਈ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਵਡਨੇ ॥੪॥੫॥
Ŧumrī thāh pā▫ī nahī pāvai jan Nānak ke parabẖ vadne. ||4||5||
Your extent cannot be estimated or known, O Great God of servant Nanak. ||4||5||

In other words, we are searching but like the elephant are minds are mired in the muck of Maya, and no devta can save you. Only a sincere plea to the Lord of the Universe will save you. That was the point of including the allusion of the elephant in the shabad on the part of 4th Nanak.

I do think you may be taking some tuks in So Dar too literally. However, I may misunderstand what you are asking.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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I think Gurbani says that Krishna, Raam, Shiva etc were nothing more than Avatari Purush! Their teachings would have been as relevant to Hindus as they are those of Ten Gurus to us, but most of Hindu deities teachings and life stories have been manipulated and modified by crooked pandits to make sure they rule the gullible people.

At some places they have praised the qualities these 'deities' had but doesn't mean we have to worship them:

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਆ ਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪਾਹਣੁ ਨੀਰਿ ਪਖਾਲੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਬੂਡਹਿ ਤੇਹਿ ॥
O brother, you worship gods and goddesses. What can you ask of them and what can they give to you? O brother, the stones/idols you wash with water sink in water.

People say there are thousands of times when Sri Ram Chandra has been referenced in Guru Granth Sahib. This way the number 1 or number 5 have also been referenced in Guru Granth Sahib many times. Do we start worshipping them? No. We have to take the wisdom present in Guru Granth Sahib, not the count of times a deity has been referrenced.

Here is another excellent discussion debunking the idea that Gurbani 'supports' Hindu Mythology.
http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5151

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; they act according to His will

I guess this talks about powers of Creation, Preservation and Destruction which occurs in every living being.

Another thing that Gurbani tells us is that all legends and spiritual material is just trying to describe the beauty of God. Some personify a few qualities of God. Others point out to stuff as miracles. All these things are trying to connect us to God, but no one knows the mystery of God. Only few people on whom God has His Mercy, become living and walking saints of God. Very few are there who are approved in His Court.

ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧ ਦੁਪਦੇ
Raag Bairaaree, Fourth Mehl, First House, Du-Padas:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਸੁਨਿ ਮਨ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ॥
Listen, O mind, to the Unspoken Speech of the Lord's Name.
ਰਿਧਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਭਜੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Riches, wisdom, supernatural spiritual powers and peace are obtained, by vibrating, meditating on the Lord God, under Guru's Instruction. ||1||Pause||
ਨਾਨਾ ਖਿਆਨ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਜਸੁ ਊਤਮ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਰਾਮ ॥
Numerous legends, the Puraanas, and the six Shaastras, sing the sublime Praises of the Lord.
ਸੰਕਰ ਕ੍ਰੋੜਿ ਤੇਤੀਸ ਧਿਆਇਓ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਮਰਮਾਮ ॥੧॥
Shiva and the three hundred thirty million gods meditate on the Lord, but they do not know the secret of His mystery. ||1||

ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਗਣ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਭ ਗਾਵਤ ਜੇਤ ਉਪਾਮ ॥
The angelic and divine beings, and the celestial singers sing His Praises; all Creation sings of Him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਭਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮ ॥੨॥੧॥
O Nanak, those whom the Lord blesses with His Kind Mercy, become the good Saints of the Lord God. ||2||1||
 

spnadmin

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ishna ji

Obviously I am in stark disagreement with Kanwaljit Singh on the point that the devtas are avatars of Akaal Purakh. Akaal does not incarnate and therefore has no avatars. In full disclosure, I tend toward the vichaar of Sikh Missionary College Ludhiana which discourages the idea that Akaal incarnates. Having said that, here was what you boiled your quest to

but statements like the So Dar part confuse the crap out of me.

After pondering, I thought of this, maybe it will help. Who are the devtas singing to? In So Dar, Indra, Brahma, Shiva, the angels are all singing the praises of Hari, Lord of the Universe. So could it not be that Guruji is asking us this question: If Indra, Braham, Shiva, the Goddess of Beauty, and all of creation are singing praises of the Lord of the Universe, then why are you, human being, you with the elephant mind, why are you singing to them? Why are you singing to devtas? They are not singing to each other. You should be singing to Hari as well.
 

Ambarsaria

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So, does Sikhi denounce the existence of gods/goddesses entirely, or does it put them at an insignificant position with relation to Waheguru, just like the rest of creation?

If it denounces their existence entirely, how do we interpret passages like So Dar (posted earlier)?

And Japji, where it is said that the Guru is Brahma, Indra, Shiva, etc?

Also in response to SPNadmin's queries, no, I don't think the gods mentioned are "executives" of the Sat. Gods, if they exist at all, would be under hukam like everything in creation. But I don't see why a Sikh needs to concern him/herself about them. Myths are stories used to explain phenomena which aren't fully understood at the time, or stories to teach people who don't understand, or to control people... I don't think myths are evidence of the existence of gods... the parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which talk about myths I can put into context... but statements like the So Dar part confuse the crap out of me.

Thanks
Ishna
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In my understanding of the usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji we need to note the following,

  • It is a composition to elicit connectivity with common folks who were previously under Islam or Hindu control or mindset
  • So Guru ji does not talk about the Devtas and Devis in the context of the super or executive or any different to you and me
  • What Guru ji did for such references was to repeat some of the qualities ascribed to such Devi/Devta/Gods/Godesses and delinked such qualities to show that such is part of all of creation and happens naturally and is not limited to such figures in religious mythology


  • Example: In your thread below some more comments and full So Dar review also,
ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ ਇਦਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ
गावहि ईसरु बरमा देवी सोहनि सदा सवारे ॥ गावहि इंद इदासणि बैठे देवतिआ दरि नाले ॥
Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏevī sohan saḏā savāre. Gāvahi inḏ iḏāsaṇ baiṯẖe ḏeviṯi▫ā ḏar nāle.
Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing. Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.
  • So in the above Guru ji subjugates Shiva, Brahma and the like to a congregation.
  • Guess what they are at par with everyone else participating in this symphony. Who else is there? Hermits of wisdom, the benevolent, the warrior and mighty, the Brahmins/Pandits, etc. That is not all it is not only human life associated things at creation’s and creator’s door. There are Earth, wind and fire, temples, sun, moon and earth, the stars and rest of the universe, etc.
  • So to emphasize that in what people understood to be Gods and Goddesses, in the face of the creator they are ordinary. Hence if in people’s perceptions such lofty characters are ordinary, then Guru ji encourages that all are equal. The understanding of such is what will open doors of understanding the creation and the creator.
In Summary:
So there is not a hierarchy or one better than the other. The Brahmin symbolic here is not praising Shiva or Brahma or others as in Hinduism. They are directly at the door. They are no executives with their followers lined up behind them. So each element and hence all creation becomes part of this symphony without any pre-conditions.

I hope I did not confuse you.

Do leave comments or correct if made any errors.

Sat Sri Akal.

[/FONT]
 

Ambarsaria

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ishna ji

Obviously I am in stark disagreement with Kanwaljit Singh on the point that the devtas are avatars of Akaal Purakh. Akaal does not incarnate and therefore has no avatars. In full disclosure, I tend toward the vichaar of Sikh Missionary College Ludhiana which discourages the idea that Akaal incarnates. Having said that, here was what you boiled your quest to



After pondering, I thought of this, maybe it will help. Who are the devtas singing to? In So Dar, Indra, Brahma, Shiva, the angels are all singing the praises of Hari, Lord of the Universe. So could it not be that Guruji is asking us this question: If Indra, Braham, Shiva, the Goddess of Beauty, and all of creation are singing praises of the Lord of the Universe, then why are you, human being, you with the elephant mind, why are you singing to them? Why are you singing to devtas? They are not singing to each other. You should be singing to Hari as well.
spnadmin ji I did not see your post while I was composing mine. I am in agreement with your lucid description.

Kanwaljit Singh ji are you in real doubt about the following,

I think Gurbani says that Krishna, Raam, Shiva etc were nothing more than Avatari Purush! Their teachings would have been as relevant to Hindus as they are those of Ten Gurus to us, but most of Hindu deities teachings and life stories have been manipulated and modified by crooked pandits to make sure they rule the gullible people.

Very disheartening for me to see a good young man missing out some basics. You are talking mythology of unknown origin and comparing it with living people from so recent past in our Gurus.


Hinduism has this flow,

Lowest cast ---> Lower Cast ---> One below Brahmin ---> Brahmin ---> Conduit to sub Devi and Devtas ---> Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Ram -----------------> The blue yonder


Per our Gurus teachings and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,

Sikhs -------------------------------------------------------> Creator/Creation
Sat Sri Akal. mundahug
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Very disheartening for me to see a good young man missing out some basics. You are talking mythology of unknown origin and comparing it with living people from so recent past in our Gurus.

I am comparing importance of Ram and Krishna in Hindu mythos. Yes in a way the comparison is improper for our Gurus lived just a few hundred years ago and we are blessed to have Guru Granth Sahib as Eternal Guru with us. But Hindus don't believe their scriptures to be pure mythology. Just like you can't prove their existence in past, you can't prove they were pure fiction. Indeed if their scriptures were written 10,000 years ago, it is hard to go either way.

BTW Jesus was born only 2000 years ago, but there are few historians who found the life of Jesus depicted on much older Egyptian mummy burial chambers. What can we infer from that? That Truth is stranger than fiction.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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About 3000 years down the line..maybe..Maharaja ranjit Singh could becoem a DEVTA as equivalent to the Raja of Dwarka..or the raja Dassareth..etc etc...SRI RANJIT...and this Devta would be concoted as an Avtaar..and making multiple journeys to Heaven swarahg..shooting magical arrows and flying on elephants..not farfetched...the Krishans and the Raams were just ordinary RAJAS..KINGS..who were made into Avtaars...there is a mandir to JAYALALITHA the actress cum politician..and shes not dead yet !! Anway SRI RANJIT is a much more credible avtaar becasue he made mincemeat of the marauding invaders who looted the land for a THOUSAND YEARS uninterrupted !! Imagien the Immense WEALTH they must have LOOTED by looking at the Treasure just discovered in one small Hindu mandir...already worth about 100,000 KROR and COUNTING !! This is small change compared to the vast treasures in the huge Mandirs that Gauri looted 17 times !!

2. The Brahma and all that about Mai in japji Sahib...what GURU JI is saying..What is BRahma..Vishnu Shivji Mai Ji..etc etc are ALL what MY GURU is to ME !! MY Guur is brahma..MY GURU is vishnu..MY GURU is Shivji..MY GURU is Mai the Devi goddess or whatever....Simple enough. Its NOT at all about Guru Ji endorsing/certifying/applauding/verifying..whatever about the existence/verasity/power/whatever of these brahmas vishnus...BECAUSE Gurbani clearly says in so many places..there are thousands upon thosuands of Brahms, vishnus shivjis and mais....so whats one Brahma ??..........BUT Guur nanak jis "GURU" is ONE and ONE ONLY..there is NO Other like HIM..no other equal to HIM..none comparable to HIM...this si the BOTTOM LINE here.
 

Ambarsaria

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Gyani Jarnail Singh ji how come you show up when I want to go nighty nighty lol

Your comment about Devta Ranjit may not be too far fetched. Let me share a real incident.
A distant cousin on my spouse's side was visiting the local Airport to receive someone or see somebody off. He had ponytail hair growth and like some men put a rubber band or stuff to manage it. Some relative younger than him touched his feet to greet. Lord behold based on his dress that he was wearing (it must have been a killer Sant/Baba dress combo or something), strangers start touching his feet. He did not say anything about it. Now deceased he commented then, I paraphrase, "I might as well start an Ashram or a religion".
Have a great good morning your way.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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