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Does Dasam Granth Promote Group Sex Or Not?

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Does Dasam Granth Promote Group Sex Or Not?

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News source: http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/793458--did-guru-gobind-singh-promote-group-sex-or-did-he-not

Then, Why is Charitopakhyan being associated with Guru Gobind Singh?

April 11, 2010
Raveena Aulakh - The Star, Toronto

The colorful frontispiece of a Dasam Granth manuscript dating from between 1825 and 1850.
SUPPLIED PICTURE

The Dasam Granth is all rhymed poetry but in the controversy about it there is growing vitriolic diatribe.

"The debate was dormant – people quietly believed one way or the other," said Harbans Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas. "This open fighting is relatively recent ... it started about 15 years ago. Now it's blowing up in everyone's face."

Last week, a man was stabbed when violence broke out at a Sikh temple in Brampton where Darshan Singh, a former, now-excommunicated head priest of Sikhs, was invited to speak. Singh, who lives in Brampton, is one of the most vocal critics of the Dasam Granth.

A scripture of Sikhism, it contains texts attributed to the tenth and the last Sikh guru, Gobind Singh, who lived in central India. They were compiled after the guru's death in 1708 by Mani Singh, one of his disciples. Singh took nine years to gather the guru's writings from various followers.

But there were different versions. From 1892 to 1897, Sikh scholars studied as many as 32 adaptations and prepared the Dasam Granth now under fire among some Sikhs. They believe it promotes sexual promiscuity, degrades women and also encourages use of intoxicants.


MOST RELIGIOUS scriptures are second-hand and passed down over centuries, and controversies about authenticity, authorship or importance are common. It's not clear how many pages or verses of the scripture are considered controversial. In September 2000, after a scholar, Virsa Singh, said his research indicated that Dasam Granth in its entirety was the tenth guru's work, the high priests issued an edict banning all debate on its authenticity.

But ten years on, the debate is still swirling.

Darshan Singh, who has brought the controversy to the forefront, maintains the Dasam Granth is inconsistent with Gobind Singh's other teachings and could not have been written by him.

"There is nothing to prove that Guru Gobind Singh wrote most of the verses," said Singh in an interview with the Star.

Dasam Granth – 1,428 pages long and mostly in Braj Bhasha, a dialect of Hindi spoken widely in many parts of India until the 19th century – contains multiple references to group sex that have riled some Sikhs. A part of the scripture talks about consuming intoxicants before sex to make it better, said Singh. He maintains some verses encourage people to have multiple sexual partners – including with immediate family members.

"It says there shouldn't be any boundaries. No guru would ever preach that," argued Singh.

Some verses in the Dasam Granth also freely talk about cutting hair, considered taboo for any practicing Sikh. "Hair is one of the important tenets of Sikhism, as said by the gurus," said Singh. "How could, then, Guru Gobind Singh have anything to do with a verse where a woman talks about disguising her lover as another woman by cutting off the hair?"

Other verses say that women should not be trusted, said Singh, who has also been studying the scripture for years. "That's not what our gurus said. Each one of them preached gender equality."

There is some debate with regard to mention of gods and goddesses in the book – the Sikh gurus maintained there is only one God. Also, parts of the Dasam Granth appear to be contradictory to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib, the holy book of the Sikhs, considered living embodiment of the 10 gurus.

Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas, said he's not "scholarly enough to say if parts of Dasam Granth have not been written by Guru Gobind Singh but I do believe that it's a part of Sikh literature and we should abstain from using language about it that hurts people."


UNTIL THIS DEBATE is settled, Sikhs should pay attention to the Guru Granth Sahib, he added. That book is a compilation of the teachings of all the gurus that is overwhelmingly accepted by Sikhs.

Sikh scholars argue that there's enormous respect for Gobind Singh on both sides and that is one reason for the debate. "One side doesn't want to challenge anything that Gobind Singh wrote because it means defying the guru himself," said Santbir Pannu, a young practicing Sikh in Toronto who has read large parts of the original Dasam Granth and most of the translations.

The other side believes the tenth guru's name should not be associated with a book whose philosophy is contrary to the gurus.

When it comes to scriptures, people get passionate very quickly, said Pannu.
But this controversy has gone on for too long, he thinks. "The Sikhs undertook a thorough in-depth investigation of the Dasam Granth and came to conclusions (in 1897). At that meeting, some compositions were deemed to be spurious. Something similar needs to be undertaken today, under the authority of the head priests," said Pannu.

Since the scripture is mostly in Braj Bhasha, a language no longer spoken, only its translations have been widely read. Many verses are long and mystical, and there is room for misinterpretation, said Lal.

But Darshan Singh has no such qualms. "I challenge you to read it and decide on your own if this could have been written by the guru," said Singh. "Read and decide. That's all."
 

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GillAUS

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Guru Gobind Singh ji certainly did not advocate such things, He actually warns against them!

If certain naastiks (non-believers) actually understood the words they condemn, they might actually realise this!

However, these feeble minded zealots have denigrated Guru Gobind Singh ji's name by the shameless promotion of such intellectually barren articles.

Well done!

:thinkingmunda:
 

spnadmin

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

The author of the article quotes Dr. Harbhans Lal. His conclusion is rather clear.


"UNTIL THIS DEBATE
is settled, Sikhs should pay attention to the Guru Granth Sahib, he added. That book is a compilation of the teachings of all the gurus that is overwhelmingly accepted by Sikhs.
 
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GillAUS

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Of course we should pay attention to our Guru!

But we shouldn't sit idle while cheap articles are published by such media outlets that denigrate the name of the Tenth Master by even insinuating that He advocated such things.

There are articles available through the seva of brother 'pjs' at another Sikh forum that provide clear explanations and dispell the clouds of controversy that needlessly surround Charitropakhyan.

Simply Google the term 'Charitropakhyan - Introduction And Analysis Of Chandi Charitar'

I humbly suggest for everyone who has not fully understood the issue to read these articles!

Don't believe the hype-machine that is Ragi D!
 

Tejwant Singh

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

GillAUS,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Of course we should pay attention to our Guru!
I totally agree with you. We should pay attention to our only Guru which is SGGS, bestowed to us by our Dasam Pita. We should sing it, read it, understand it, practice it so that goodness can be bred within which can be shared with others.

But we shouldn't sit idle while cheap articles are published by such media outlets that denigrate the name of the Tenth Master by even insinuating that He advocated such things.
I also agree with you that our Dasam Pita could not have written what is in some parts of Dasam Granth, the most important thing that we should remind ourselves as often as possible is that our Dasam Pita DID NOT give the name Dasam Granth to this book. It would be too arrogant on his part and a total defiance to SGGS, our only Guru that he bestowed to us. So, second guessing our Dasam Pita is the biggest crime a Sikh can commit.

There are articles available through the seva of brother 'pjs' at another Sikh forum that provide clear explanations and dispell the clouds of controversy that needlessly surround Charitropakhyan.
Can you please share with us what kind of articles you are talking about?

Simply Google the term 'Charitropakhyan - Introduction And Analysis Of Chandi Charitar'
One can Google and also check this forum for the explanations given by different people what Charitropakhyan is all about and some of the things mentioned in the thread give us the glimpse of it.

I humbly suggest for everyone who has not fully understood the issue to read these articles!
I agree. As Sikhs we should make knowledge our best friend, not our worst enemy and strive to become open minded which is what Sikhi is based on.

Don't believe the hype-machine that is Ragi D!
Pardon my ignorance, but can you please elaborate what you mean by the above?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Moderators plz plz plz change the title of this thread , its my request with folded hands
 

spnadmin

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

harmanpreet singh ji

Precisely because of their dismay, like yours, did many in the panth begin to doubt the authorship of Chaubis Avtar, Bachittar Natak, Charitthropakayan, and many other chapters within the so called Dasam Granth. My reaction is outrage as well.

I think Harbhans Lal is asking why so much time was permitted to go by without a serious inquiry.

"The debate was dormant – people quietly believed one way or the other," said Harbans Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas. "This open fighting is relatively recent ... it started about 15 years ago. Now it's blowing up in everyone's face."

So the question posed in the thread title is valid. And when a thread like this one is posted by Soul-Jyot ji we can be confident there was not the tiniest urge to be sensational, but a desire to urge us to be serious about our heritage.

P/S The thread title is based on a news article published in a Canadian online newspaper. It was not the invention of Soul_Jyot ji. He is merely bringing this article to our attention. The panth needs to be aware of what is happening around them.
 
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spnadmin

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Note:

The story related to "group sex" is most likely the Raas Leela, commonly known as the saree stealing episode, main characters of which are Krishan and the gopees. The story begins on panna 695 of Dasam Granth, and continues to approximately panna 702. Following the Raas Leela, the gopees singh a song of praise to Goddess Durga.

The chapter is the Krishan Avtar of the Chaubis Avtar, believed by many to be authored by Shiam, one of the 52 poets of the court of Guru Gobind Singh.




Panna 702 <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਤਬੈ ਕਰ ਕੇਲ ਤਿਨੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੈ ਪਟ ਦੇ ਕਰਿ ਛੋਰ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਤਬੈ ਗੁਪੀਆ ਸਭ ਚੰਡ ਸਰਾਹਤ ਧਾਮ ਗਈ ਹੈ ॥
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">Kaahn tabai kar kel tino sang(i) pai pat de kar(i) chhodh daihai|| Hoe ikatra tabai gupeeaa sabh Channd saraahat dhaam gadhai||
</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Krishna performed amorous play with all of them and then giving them their clothes, he released all of them; all the gopis, adoring the mother Durga, went to their homes;</td></tr></tbody></table>
 

roab1

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

so how does it promote group sex?
 

spnadmin

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

so how does it promote group sex?
roab ji

I am a little weary of this. Please forgive me. By all means share your reflections with us.


In anticipation of the possible questions regarding the Raas Leela, and its anti-Gurmat message, I searched for and found a good critique. Your question is answered in the article.

See attached. Dasam Granth Da Likhari Kaun by Jasbinder Singh Khalsa. :happykaur:
 

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GillAUS

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Please confine your comments to a discussion of issues and avoid name-calling. Deletions, Narayanjot Kaur

Sri Charitropakhan is the work of Guru Gobind Singh.

The contents deal with moral issues that plague mankind in the age of kalyug. The language may be uncomfortable, but that is because of the gravity of such moral dilemmas that can and do occur in this age!

It is clearly stated in this Bani that these actions should be avoided. The author of the article clearly has not read anything and is resorting to the type of cheap tabloid headlines that grace newspaper covers in order to sell more copies.

Guru Sahib is giving His Sikhs a heads up by composing this Bani. There is no advocacy of 'group sex'.

One of the beloved Banis of the Khalsa Panth, recited as a part of Amrit Sanchar for centuries and as a part of Nitnem, the Benti Chaupai, comes from Charitropakhan.

However, there will be those that propogate this newly found doubt in whether or not Benti Chaupai was even recited at Amrit Sanchaar and as a part of Nitnem!

Discuss issues not personalities. Deletion

NOTE: I did not refer to the mad professor by Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa by that name. Nor did I use anything particularly demeaning. It was automatically changed to that when I made this post.

Discuss issues and do not throw mud. Deletion
 

roab1

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

It is clearly stated in this Bani that these actions should be avoided.
Can you quote?

The author of the article clearly has not read anything and is resorting to the type of cheap tabloid headlines that grace newspaper covers in order to sell more copies.
I agree. The Star is fast going The Sun way.
 
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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

harmanpreet singh ji

Precisely because of their dismay, like yours, did many in the panth begin to doubt the authorship of Chaubis Avtar, Bachittar Natak, Charitthropakayan, and many other chapters within the so called Dasam Granth. My reaction is outrage as well.

I think Harbhans Lal is asking why so much time was permitted to go by without a serious inquiry.

"The debate was dormant – people quietly believed one way or the other," said Harbans Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas. "This open fighting is relatively recent ... it started about 15 years ago. Now it's blowing up in everyone's face."

So the question posed in the thread title is valid. And when a thread like this one is posted by Soul-Jyot ji we can be confident there was not the tiniest urge to be sensational, but a desire to urge us to be serious about our heritage.

P/S The thread title is based on a news article published in a Canadian online newspaper. It was not the invention of Soul_Jyot ji. He is merely bringing this article to our attention. The panth needs to be aware of what is happening around them.

Narayanjot ji ,


i am not big fan of chritropakyan , chaubis avtaar , i have done my own research ,and
i don't wanna know who is this cheap harban lal ,canadian online papers , i only know such type of nonsense title is grave STUPIDITY , and GRAVE DISRESPECT OF MY GURU SAHIB .


SO KINDLY SHUT THIS NONSENSE UP , ITS UNBEARALE TO ME




:}--}:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

GillAUS wrote:>>>>>>The contents deal with moral issues that plague mankind in the age of kalyug. The language may be uncomfortable, but that is because of the gravity of such moral dilemmas that can and do occur in this age!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

According to the SGGS..Guru nanak ji declares that there are no such thing as "bad time"..bad period..as kalyug is made out to be...
Guru Ji declares..its the SAME SUN..the SAME STARS..the SAME MOON...its the MEN/WOMEN who CHANGE !!! the Men and women who have BAD HABITS..who rape their daughters, sell their mothers, murder their fathers, beat their brothers, become MOBS and destroy places of worship...the Same sun, moon and stars, shone on Treta..dwapur..whatever...!!!! so it follows logically that in DWAPUR there can be GROUP SEX..sex orgies.....as described in Krishan Avatar...and in treta people can distrust their wives, cheat on their wives..fight over women...as in Raam Avatar..so whats the difference..and why is Kalyug so special ??? Its a MYTH. No such thing at all....MORAL ISSUES PLAGUE..MAN..not the PERIOD per se...
 

Aman Singh

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

Gurfateh GillAus Ji

I have always been amused at the frequent usage of term "Naastiks" (Non-believers!) ... As you have used this term, it would be prudent on your part to define this term for once and for all.

According to you, Who is a Naastik (a non-Believer) in Sikhism?

Thank you

Regards

Aman Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

GillAUS ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Sri Charitropakhan is the work of Guru Gobind Singh.
Only Guru Gobind Singh can claim that. No one else. So, please give us the evidence where our Dasam Pita said that he wrote this, otherwise you are doing nothing but insulting our 10th Guru which shows more about you than anyone else.

The contents deal with moral issues that plague mankind in the age of kalyug. The language may be uncomfortable, but that is because of the gravity of such moral dilemmas that can and do occur in this age!
1.Where did Guru Gobind Singh write your above claim?
Please show us the quotes by him.

2.Did he say anywhere that," Whatever I am writing is going to be uncomfortable?

By claiming the above you show your total disregard for the SGGS, our only Guru and claim that, SGGS never talked about the moral issues that plague the mankind. You should study it one day to find out how it tackles the moral issues.

It seems that " Dasam Granth" is more important than SGGS, which was bestowed upon us by our Dasam Pita as our only Guru and thus has no value for people like you and your ilk who claim that pornography is written by our Dasam Pita and promote it shamelessly.

It is clearly stated in this Bani that these actions should be avoided.
Show us where our Dasam Pita said that or are you too arrogant to talk on his behalf?

Guru Sahib is giving His Sikhs a heads up by composing this Bani. There is no advocacy of 'group sex'.
Where did Guru Sahib say that? Provide us His quotes.

You have no proof of your false claims. You are doing nothing but insulting Guru Gobind Singh ji who sacrificed His Father, His sons, gave us Khalsa Panth and many more things that are dear to us, which is a travesty to say the least and a shame!

Tejwant Singh
 

spnadmin

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

More as a request that the discussion focus a little better I would ask this.

The words in the thread title, "Or Not?"

Those words open up the possibility that the allegation that Dasam Granth promotes group sex is not true.

If group sex is not the point of Raas Leela, then what is the importance of the Rass Leela? If there is a deeper spiritual meaning, what is that meaning?

If we can depend on there being deeper spiritual meanings..... my next question would be this. Why is it necessary to engage Hindu mythology to arrive at deep spiritual meanings? Why would not the deepest spirituality be in SGGS itself/
 

ballym

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Re: Did Guru Gobind Singh Promote Group Sex or Did He Not?

The contents deal with moral issues that plague mankind in the age of kalyug. The language may be uncomfortable, but that is because of the gravity of such moral dilemmas that can and do occur in this age!

It is clearly stated in this Bani that these actions should be avoided. The author of the article clearly has not read anything and is resorting to the type of cheap tabloid headlines that grace newspaper covers in order to sell more copies.
So... SGPC and PRO-Dasam have succeeded in making sikhs a laughing stock... and more.
Our Guru... a link to God could foresee such things coming up later?
Again.... out of the graphic details given... which one is should not be done. I am writing this line to make you understand that if you need to be told that something is bad, you are never taught how to do it. You are just told that it is bad and what maybe the result. YOU ARE NOT given details.
Most people say that some parts may be Guru's Bani.
Stop making us a laughing stock by speaking truth about dasam granth. Guru Gobind ji NEVER STATED IT TO BE TRUE. So why some people are bent upon lifting up graphic description to a level of " religious" scripture?
I fail in my senses to see people supporting it.
Graphic details have more lines and staying away from it does not have many, if any. Can you quote what kabi sham etc have written to prohibit those specific actions ?
It is fine to change heading but we are a laughing stock for all world population.I appreciate Raveena for bringing it up..... could have been less dramatic but major fault lies elsewhere.
 

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