Do You Believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Became MUKT/”got Salvation”?

Do you believe Guru Nanak Dev ji achieved mukti/salvation?

  • YES, elaborate so we may learn.

    Votes: 14 77.8%
  • NO, describe so we may learn.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • Other: Please post an explanation so we may learn.

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • Total voters
    18

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Bhagat Singh ji I have a comment on your continuous propensity to inject Hiduism practices associated words in describing Sikhi, SGGS content, and Sikhism practices. I will note the one you have used here.
.....
I could go on. These are rituals as well as a way of expressing oneself. This applies to things like chanting and singing Bhajans (hymns from Guru Granth Sahib).
If you are simply devoid of Punjabi vocabulary and knowledge I would understand. Bhajans are clearly associated by a person on the street in India and by Hindus as what goes on in the context of Hiduism, the mandirs, the pandits, etc. SGGS does not have Bhajans it has Shabads. Where as Bhajo/"understand-chant" can be understood and even mentioned in Gurdwaras it is a grave insult to suggest that Shabads are Bhajans in SGGS.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
He wields the conch war-horn, quoit-chakar, mace, He is the Great Charioteer of His saints. - pg 1082

This is not merely metaphorical ie. those icons do not just carry a meaning, they are real. God incarnated on Earth and was a charioteer of Arjuna, he wield the conch,chakar and mace, etc. If you read the entire page 1082, this will be clear.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...-you-believe-guru-nanak-dev-6.html#post175854
Remember Guru ji were talking to Hindus. They were not vetting their beliefs. Rather they were connecting with them through their vocabulary and then enlightening them and taking them away from their useless beliefs and soul entrapment managed by Brahmins.

Such deliberate mis-direction takes threads off-topic. I suggest you think before trying to excite people into reacting and interacting with you. Agent provocateurs serve some purpose sometimes but not always. Sometimes one does it too many times to blow the cover and become ineffectual.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Luckysingh

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Muktee is NOT achieved by inhaling/exhaling..its achieved by TRUTHFUL LIVING..practise of Gurbani adopting Gurbani LIVING GURBANI..Becoming GURBANI...exhaling/inhaling assists one to LIVE.

Of course Gyani ji, you can't become mukt doing some fancy yoga !!
We cannot be giving out mixed and unrealistic messages here.
I don't think anyone said anything about attaining liberation with the aid of breathing.
It won't off track slightly and the breathing is discussed with regards to meditation. For this purpose it can help and that is about it, besides helping you live.
 
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Luckysingh

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To become mukt, one has to 'Earn' it.
This is what I like to term as 'Kamayie' in punjabi. One has to do 'kamayie' in order to move up the spiritual ladder.

Whatever we do in life in terms of job, trade or profession, we also have to 'learn' in order to eventually 'earn'.- One has to sikh (learn) before they can do any Kamayie(earn)
The Learning has to be done so that one can be suitable to earn in that field. We can see that learning and earning go hand in hand.

In a similar manner, in order to move up the spiritual ladder we have to 'LEARN'.
In gurmat this learning is from a Guru. We have our One guru and this is the primary source of gurmat 'learning'.

The 'learning' alone helps mould us for spiritual enhancing, but to be able to reach the limits like mukti, we have additional earnings or kamayie to accomplish.

We can all do our own kamayian in our own methods or orders. But the learning is from the one guru only.

Personally, I think the easiest way to start is by 1st listening to a verse or shabad and then making a personal effort to understand it because personally they can mean something slightly different for all of us although the universal message is the same.
Once an effort is made and some deeper learning is done, then we can contemplate on it.
This then becomes a continuous process and cycle of this chain of events.

REMEMBER- Gur bin gyaan na hovai.
One cannot get gyan (true knowledge) without the Guru

The contemplating that follows is usually the first steps in the kamayie or earning.
I think that we can then continue and do our own kamayie in the order that suits us or the one that we may be suited to.

Then we do our kamayie within the 3 pillars of Kirat karo, vand chaako and naam japo.
as well as living by the rehat.
All of these will help to give us kamayie.

The methods that we use and how we go about doing this kamayie within the pillars and rehat may differ between each of us.
This is because we all have varying degrees of the 5 evils within us and the mannerisms in which we conduct ourselves to conquer them will also vary accordingly.


This brings me back to naam japo, one of the pillars mentioned above.
Naam japo is the remembrance of God by keeping your mind focused on the One.
HOW exactly do we do this ?
Some of us can do it without any effort and can keep that frequency in tune at all times or with very little effort.
However, some of us have to take a few extra steps for this effort.

Personally, I have to make some time in order to dedicate myself by tuning in with simran and meditation. I feel that for my own kamayie, I have to do something physical in order to connect and focus my mind.
With this comes the breathing and whatever gurmanter you feel helps you connect.

At the end of the day, repeating shabads, repeating nitnem, repeating the connection with God, repeating 'Waheguru', repeating and singing kirtan, repeating ardas, repeating mool mantar...etc....etc.. are ALL REPEATING.
The REPEATING is a requirement and a need for us humans to help the LEARNING which then goes on to help with the EARNING.
Whether someone is learning to drive, learning their math or science, learning to cook...etc.. all repetitive actions of revision, practice and reciting help us to LEARN to the maximum potlential. Then after we can APPLY it in our Earning.

This is why I see that repeating meditation and repeating God's name with my tongue helps me to learn to focus and connect completely. With practice you find that you can connect by repeating less frequently and that is the real goal. To be able to be in a meditative state or to have the name of the lord vibrating within 24/7, without the need for intitial yoga aides of breath control etc...is the ultimate achievement.

I hope you can see how making a physical effort to utter the lord's name helps me to make my earning or kamayie.
Just like in our daily trades we earn money and make our own kamayie in different ways from our neighbours, I see breathing techniques and repeated reciting as my personal method of some kamayie.

The earnings we make in our daily lives and jobs are not permanent like everything else human and they don't get ingrained into our souls or God connection. But the gurmat
kamayie that we make in our own ways is more than permanent and can be very much ingrained to our God consciousness.

Hope you get my idea, here.
 

Luckysingh

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I could go on. These are rituals as well as a way of expressing oneself. This applies to things like chanting and singing Bhajans (hymns from Guru Granth Sahib).<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I think that bhajans is the wider term to describe devotional songs, whereas hymns from Guru Granth Sahib ji are classed as kirtan.
I feel kirtan comes under the umbrella of bhajans, but I can't remember the term bhajans being used to address kirtan.

Ambarsariaji, I don't feel that bhajans is strictly a hindu term although they seem to have hijacked it, because I have a book with kirtan and devotional punjabi songs by Ajaib Singh and these Guru devotional and punjabi songs are labelled as bhajans.

In general within the music industry nowadays, bhajans are referred to hindu devotional songs and 'dharmik geet' is usally referred to punjabi devotional songs that are not classed as kirtan.
To be called Kirtan they have to be hymns from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji, Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal ji.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.
I think that bhajans is the wider term to describe devotional songs, whereas hymns from Guru Granth Sahib ji are classed as kirtan.

I feel kirtan comes under the umbrella of bhajans (untrue as Bhajans have little relevance to scriptures), but I can't remember the term bhajans being used to address kirtan.

The following is an example of a Bhajan which is a great tune sung as a copy of Gurmeet Bawa's song,

Kharo Doli Na Part 1- N A R E N D R A C H A N C H A L - YouTube

Gurmeet Bawa,

gurmeet bawa - kaharo doli na GPSADDICTED - YouTube

Luckysingh ji Hymns are called Shabads/stanzas. Kirtan is the singing of Shabads per the underlying musical tone/Raags.


Here is a quote (there are many more in many posts of his and one tries to ignore) from the post of our friend claiming to be respectful of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and a believer in Sikhism,
I could go on. These are rituals as well as a way of expressing oneself. This applies to things like chanting and singing Bhajans (hymns from Guru Granth Sahib).
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...-you-believe-guru-nanak-dev-7.html#post175893
Luckysingh ji the above from the post I found offensive. This is clear nescent, insidious propagation to dilute Sikhi into Hinduism.

When did Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji started to be called Bhajans?


In general within the music industry nowadays (they always were in the 50's, 60's and so on), bhajans are referred to hindu devotional songs and 'dharmik geet' is usally referred to punjabi devotional songs that are not classed as kirtan.

To be called Kirtan they have to be hymns from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji, Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal ji.
Here is what SRM says about Kirtan,

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THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS
CHAPTER V

Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual)

Article VI

a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.
b) Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures.
c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.
d) It is improper, while singing hymns to rhythmic folk tunes or to traditional musical measures, or in team singing, to induct into them improvised and extraneous refrains. Only a line from the hymn should be made a refrain.
The above is coming from very learned people and it is not simple whim of a person.

There is no question a true Sikhs learns and learns from all. It however does not give such a Sikh or anyone else rights to debase Sikhism and the tenets thereof whether implicitly or explicitly.

I try to hold my horses but was much dismayed while generally respecting the intellect of the person.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

BhagatSingh

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Re: I believe in the "Pantheistic Paradox", Identity in difference....

Dear Vouthon ji,
It should be stated that in Catholicism, the earlier practices of the spiritual path are what we call "meditation". Meditation is explicitly discursive, using mental images, ideas, thoughts, concepts, memory (this is known as cataphatic prayer) in other words the left side of your brain - the one dealing with discursive thought.

"Contemplation", on the other hand, is a freeing of the mind from all images, thoughts, concepts, ideas, sense perceptions etc (this is known as imageless prayer). This is the supreme intuitive awareness of God and equivalent to what many of the Eastern religions mean with the word "meditation".
My definition is the other way around but sure. I do basically every practice that is mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib.

I enjoyed reading about your experience. I had several last year, in short bursts. They were all blissful, experiences. No images, sounds thoughts etc, my eyes were open but there was an inner knowing coursing through my mind. They ended with a realization of the nature of Akal Purakh. I use that term specifically, it means Timeless Man, used to refer to God in India, my experiences specifically had to to with this Timeless Man. He is said to possess thousands of hands, eyes, etc while possessing none at the same time. That never made sense of me, until this night when I began my usual, pacing and thinking then become quiet, focusing on my breath and reciting "Waheguru" if my mind wavered from the breath and silence. After getting into a blissful experience, all of a sudden, I could see the nature of my Being, the all-pervading source of everything and the end of perception. The bubble of human capability was there. Everything was there, concepts, ideas, thoughts, mental structures, perspectives, knowledge about God. My purpose and purpose of man. I could see it all fit together, the depth of things. How everything made sense. It was the source of all explanations. The curtains had now been lifted so to speak. This perception deeply penetrated everything I did and encountered in life until I became accustomed to it. It left me with an indescribable sort of openness.

Nowadays, I am trying to explore OBEs, astral travel, telekinesis, lucid dreaming, chi energy, chakras. I want to know what if they are real and so I am slowly experimenting with them in my free time. Before my experiences, this would have been blasphemy for me as a scientist lol but now I think the power of human capability is underestimated. If an ordinary man can be one with God and see everything from His eyes, who is to define what people can do and cannot? what they can experience and what they cannot?

I was only 14 and I think in retrospect I wasn't prepared for the loss of awareness of my body. It was a shock and my response was fear. I lost all sense of time and place. I did not feel my physical body, I was light and in a state of bliss, but it drove my to panic when my thoughts returned.
That's a good sign. It sounds like the Fear of God. Normally, everyone only talks about love. But they forget fear is an important part of transformation into God. Fear is there because you are dieing. Your sense of self, your body, whatever you think you are, is dieing. The caterpillar dies before it becomes a butterfly. It sheds it's old self to adopt Freedom.

Do you know of "Centering Prayer", brother Bhagat ji? It is a Catholic form of Contemplative prayer (what you might call "meditation") which I find particularly beneficial and condusive to my soul/mind.
Yes, I agree. I try to do it whenever possible. Even if I am playing Diablo 3. :grinningkaur: Awesome game by the way.

Here is a Catholic priest and modern mystic Fr Thomas Keating explaining something about "Centering Prayer" and ultimate reality:
Haha, I have listened to that guy before. His teachings seem to be influenced by modern Buddhism. It sounds similar to Ken Wilber, Eckharte and the like.




The Cloud of Unknowing elucidates a number of cultivation exercises by which spiritual practitioners can learn to mentally empty themselves, and this is described as "putting other thoughts away."

The Cloud of Unknowing calls these "special ways, tricks, private techniques, and spiritual devices".

The Cloud of Unknowing, advises the aspirant to concentrate on a single syllable such as "God"
Plus the quotes you posted. It's the same in Sikhism. Focus completely on "Hari", immerse yourself in Him, lose your sense of self, become a vessel for Hari, be equanimous with His Hukam/intent-doing, stop seeing distinctions and become One.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Lucky Singh ji,
Do you interpret it in a similar manner, or do you think we still have some duality aspects once at the final frontier or when merged with the One ?
I sort of let go of interpretations and perspectives. I think you can feel that deep in your heart too.
When fully merged you are dead, this is the final frontier. What happens at this point? Do things even "happen"? I don't know.

Guru Granth Sahib says we are beings of duality. Without duality we wouldn't be around. We are engrossed in it, enmeshed in it's very essence. This is Hari da bhana.

We begin a journey where by being completely immersed in gurmat, we go through many repeated modes where nirgun becomes sirgun and sirgun becomes nirgun and so on....
A little like where the consciousness becomes advait completely with immersion and soul may maintain some duality!!!
I know that when saying this, I am implying that soul and consciousness can be separate !!!
What do you mean?
----------------------------
Lucky Singh ji,
Bhajans are hymns, they can be about God and they can be from any source. Geet is the same thing thing, a synonym of bhajan in Guru Granth Sahib. Kirtan is singing praises, they can be about God and can come from any source, it's root word is Keerat (to praise). These are all related and overlap pretty much all the time. Of course, being Sikhs we sing bhajans from Guru Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdaas jis and Bhai Nand Lal ji's bani.

I feel kirtan comes under the umbrella of bhajans,
peacesign Exactly

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
Says Nanak, contemplate this essential teaching
ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ
that without (singing of) Hari's bhajan there is no liberation.
page 188

There has been a long tradition of singing about God to connect with Him in India. Particularly in Sri Ramanuja's line of Qualified Non-Dualism/ Vishishtadvait. He emphasized devotional worship, and was very influential in shaping beliefs of sants/bhagatsgurus after him to Guru Sahibs and contemporary sants/bhagats/guru and all the way to our time!

I only go by Guru Granth Sahib's use of the words and the definitions in Mahan Kosh. I don't go by what people say or what they normally call it. People's use of words can be quite different from Guru Granth Sahib. For example, "gyani" is used as a slur. But In Guru Granth Sahib this is a respected position. On Page 273 ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥ Nanak says a God-realized gyani is God! Why is this said in a manner to insult kesadhari sikhs?
 
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Re: I believe in the "Pantheistic Paradox", Identity in difference....

That's a good sign. It sounds like the Fear of God. Normally, everyone only talks about love. But they forget fear is an important part of transformation into God. Fear is there because you are dieing. Your sense of self, your body, whatever you think you are, is dieing. The caterpillar dies before it becomes a butterfly. It sheds it's old self to adopt Freedom.

Excellent insight brother Bhagat ji. You do know that this is practically verbatim the same as the Catholic mystics? I am very much intrigued that you appear to have reached the same conclusions as them, and even have employed the exact same imagery of the little caterpillar dying to become a butterfly.

I have chosen two female mystics who said the exact same as you: Blessed Anne of St. Bartholomew and Saint Teresa of Avila:

"..I once saw my soul fashioned like a little silkworm, which has been diligently fed and carefully kept by those who raised it. But when it is grown it begins to spin with its little snout a delicate little silken thread to make a little hut for itself, and in so doing it enjoys such sweetness that it does not notice its own death until, robbed of all its powers, it remains enclosed and dead in its shell. Now my soul saw something similar in itself, for with just such sweetness and quiet it gave the almighty God everything it had in itself and enclosed itself like a little silkworm in its nonbeing and in the recognition of its nothingness, with a sweet love that spins at all times in my heart, which no longer wishes to be or to live, for dying is the true being of the soul..."

- Blessed Anne of St. Bartholomew, O.C.D (1549-1626), Spanish Catholic mystic & Carmelite nun


And Saint Teresa. This extract is from The Interior Castle. In this work Teresa describes the journey of the Christian who is seeking union with the Beloved. In making that journey the Christian has to pass through seven mansions before reaching the centre of the castle where the Beloved lives. One of the images Teresa used to manifest this union is that of a silk worm (caterpillar). Just as the worm has to die to become a beautiful butterfly, so the self has to die in order to become God:

"...When it is full-grown, then, [the worm] starts to spin its silk and to build the house in which it is to die. This house may be understood here to mean God. Let the silkworm die, let it die, as in fact it does when it has completed the work which it was created to do. Then we shall see God and shall ourselves be as completely hidden in His greatness as is this little worm in its cocoon. And now let us see what becomes of this silkworm, When it is in this state of prayer, and quite dead to the world, it comes out a little white butterfly. Oh, greatness of God, that a soul should come out like this after being hidden in the greatness of God, and closely united with Him, for so short a time I tell you truly, the very soul does not know itself. For think of the difference between an ugly worm and a white butterfly; To see, then, the restlessness of this little butterfly -- though it has never been quieter or more at rest in its life! Here is something to praise God for-- namely, that it knows not where to settle and make its abode. By comparison with the abode it has had, everything it sees on earth leaves it dissatisfied, especially when God has again and again given it this wine which almost every time has brought it some new blessing. It sets no store by the things it did when it was a worm -- that is, by its gradual weaving of the cocoon. It has wings now: how can it be content to crawl along slowly when it is able to fly? All that it can do for God seems to it slight by comparison with its desires. [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]It is not surprising, then, that, as this little butterfly feels a stranger to things of the earth, it should be seeking a new resting-place. But where will the poor little creature go? The silkworm has of necessity to die; and it is this which will cost you most; for death comes more easily when one can see oneself living a new life, whereas our duty now is to continue living this present life, and yet to die of our own free will. I confess to you that we shall find this much harder, but it is of the greatest value and the reward will be greater too if you gain the victory. But you must not doubt the possibility of this true union with the will of God. This is the union which I have desired all my life; it is for this that I continually beseech Our Lord; it is this which is the most genuine and the safest..." [/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]- Saint Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), Spanish Catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church


[/FONT]


You might also wish to reflect on these words of Johannes Tauler concering dying to self:


"...In the truest death of all created things, the sweetest and most natural life is hidden. In their death lies the secret of our life. This dying has many degrees. A person might die a thousand deaths in one day and find at once a joyful life corresponding to each of them..."

- Johannes Tauler (c.1300-1361), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest


And finally Angelus Silesius - who has been quoted a heck of a lot by me in this thread already:


"...Death is a blessed thing; if it be vigorous,
The life that springs from it will be more glorious.

I do not believe in death; if every hour I die,
I shall then have each time discovered a better life.

Unless you gladly die, you are not glad to live.
Only another death another life can give.

The saints are dead, you say; our need they cannot see.
The wise man answereth: dead to the fool, maybe.

Saints do not die.
It is their lot
to die while on this earth
to all that God is not.

I do not face my end in fear,
for, knowing death must come,
I let my self die long ago
and watched desire disapear.

You are not real, Death,
for I die every minute
and am reborn in the next
into life infinite.

A spark without its fire, a drop without its sea,
Without reincarnation what more, pray, wouldst thou be?

That which you love enough can render you rebirth:
Love God and become God, love earth and become earth.

The sage does not fear death.
To often has he died
to ego and its vanities,
to all that keeps man tied.

No death has greatness
but that from which new life
can spring.
No life more vital
than that which from the death
of self takes wing.

Because through death alone we become liberated,
I say it is the best of all things created..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet


Angelus Silesius in fact taught that death does not actually exist. According to him it is an illusion, since nothing really "dies", things simply change into something different ie our bodies disentegrate upon death and return to the earth; a cloud disperses to become rain and so on. The death of the soul is the supreme example of this, we die to self not to cease to be but rather to transform into a new and higher form of life, this time the highest of all: the Unititative Life in God which we live in the here and now, from moment to moment, becoming a seeker of God in all things and then after our death beyond all time and place in God Himself.

I should add that to "die to self", is to be released from the egoic self, the "me" and its selfish cravings, so that we can literally be "reborn" as a new person in the here and now, and effect change in the lives of others for the common good. Hence why Angelus Silesius said:


"...There is no higher aim
than to reclaim
another, blinded by life's pain -
to make him live and see again..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet


It is to completely lose all self-will and to melt into the Will of God and experience union with Him.

We die to self to rise again as a new, better person. We die to self daily, whenever we relinquish a selfish attachment. It is a life-long process, although we may recall a moment or one day have a moment when we feel like we have been wholly "reborn" as a new person and died to self completely, to become one in all ways with God. Such is an enlightened state of mind, one of pure clarity and seeing. This is the stage of absorption into the Divine Unity, becoming God by grace as he is by nature, spoken of by the mystics, as much as is attainable in this human lifespan. I would say that I am currently far from the later, although I try to die every die to one selfish desire and then the next, and am reborn every day. Or at least, that is my heart's hope and desire. Through God's Grace I am sustained.

That is the Catholic understanding of reincarnation. It happens in this one single human lifespan, which is the only one we will ever have. We must be reborn in the now. We must aim to die every day to all that is not God, to every ounce of self-will. It is a constant, life-long struggle. Yet there is a "peace which passeth all understanding", when we can die utterly to self and self-will, to be reborn in God as a new being in this life. For me that is enlightenment.

It is interesting how mystical experience, even to the point of metaphors employed to explain it, crosses religious frontiers.

Is the image of the caterpillar becoming a butterfly used in the Guru Granth Sahib ji? Its very prevalent amongst Catholic mystics of the Spanish school.
 
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Nov 15, 2004
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Re: I believe in the "Pantheistic Paradox", Identity in difference....

Vouthon ji,


I was seeing circular, amoeboid, or tunnel-like patterns and had the sensation of being "pulled" into them as if it were a tunnel. I felt myself increasingly lose control of and awareness of my body, which was what made me feel terrified when "I" returned and realized what was happening. Strange, strange experience. It was a mental image, or vision that arose spontaneously in the course of my contemplation. It was not self-automated, since it took me completely by surprise. I wrote an account of it later in my diary, and when asked shared kit with one my Buddhist friend's who told me that my experience (which I explained to her in greater depth) had been my entering into Jhana but without proper preparation or understanding of what was happening to me, hence the panic.


Your friend, along with all the other meditating Boodists out there, are amongst the most deluded people on the planet as far as I'm concerned. Regarding such people I’d say, better that they had not heard the Buddha’s teachings, because at least then, they would not project such trash into the Dhamma.

When I first heard Jhana described to me, I was taken aback by how much wisdom is involved in its development. Those during the Buddha's time, particularly his former teachers, who attained the highest levels of Jhana, impressed upon me as being the wisest of people, second only to the Buddha and his enlightened disciples. Although that wisdom is different from that which the Buddha enlightened to and taught, it however was still very great. And this reflected why the Buddha would come to be during the time when the best of people lived, many of who could then understand his teachings and become enlightened.

It all starts with seeing the harm of sensuous attachment and aversion in daily life. Implying of course, understanding the value in non-attachment and non-aversion. Little by little, there is revulsion towards all forms of wrong doing and therefore growth in morality. One withdraws from the company of people and surroundings judged as not conducive to the growth of wholesome qualities and begin associating only with people of integrity. (So you won’t find such people browsing the Internet, for example.)

This then at some point conditions the need to go away to a quiet place in order to develop calm / concentration. But before this, one need to know oneself enough to be able to determine exactly, which of the 30+ possible objects is suitable for one’s own accumulations and how this might lead to deep concentration. And once this has been determined, even then it is still very hard for the very rudimentary level of concentration to be achieved. Indeed in one of the ancient commentaries it has been suggested that only one in hundred thousand of those who begin such practice will attain Access Concentration. And then of these, only one in a hundred thousand will attain the first level of Jhana. Likewise the same ratio for second, third and fourth Jhanas.

But people today think that all this is a matter of choosing a particular object to concentrate on and soon Jhana, not only the first, but second, third and fourth can all be achieved. And the most common object is breath, which is in fact, the most difficult of objects, i.e. requiring the highest level of wisdom, to discern and concentrate upon.

So really, anyone who thinks that Jhana is easy and that he or she has attained any one of the levels, must be completely deluded. And now you have an idea why I consider 99% of the Buddhists out there as wrong.
 

Ambarsaria

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Some comments and elaborations regarding post above.

Bhajans are hymns, they can be about God and they can be from any source. Geet is the same thing, a synonym of bhajan in Guru Granth Sahib. Kirtan is singing praises, they can be about God and can come from any source, it's root word is Keerat (to praise).
A mix bowl of everything where everything is synonym.

  • Bhajan, Geet, Kirtan
How wrong just because one wants to broad brush everything rather than pay due respect and consideration vis-à-vis Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Note: Read earlier post as to what Kirtan means vis-à-vis Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for a Sikh. See also succinct clarification with respect to Kirtan in Sikh Reht Maryada.

These are all related and overlap pretty much all the time. Of course, being Sikhs we sing bhajans from Guru Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdaas jis and Bhai Nand Lal ji's bani.

  • We suddenly declare that Kirtan is the same as Bhajans in Mandirs and other religions

  • Of course we can say what we like as Guru ji is defense less not being here in body to elaborate
Let us review further.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
Says Nanak, contemplate this essential teaching
ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ
that without (singing of) Hari's bhajan there is no liberation.
page 188
Now let us review the complete shabad and one quickly realizes that it is not about singing, songs or geets or musical chanting like Bhajans.
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ
गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
ਗਊੜੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਪੰਜਵੀਂ।
xxx
xxx

ਵਡੇ ਵਡੇ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਲੋਗ
वडे वडे जो दीसहि लोग ॥
vade vade jo ḏīsėh log.
Those who seem to be great and powerful,
ਜਿਹੜੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਹੀ ਵਡੇ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਦਿਸਦੇ ਹਨ,
ਦੀਸਹਿ = ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਹਨ।
(ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਿਚ ਧਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁਤਾ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਲ) ਜੇਹੜੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਹਨ,
People looking so high and mighty.
ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰੋਗ ੧॥
तिन कउ बिआपै चिंता रोग ॥१॥
Ŧin ka▫o bi▫āpai cẖinṯā rog. ||1||
are afflicted by the disease of anxiety. ||1||
ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਫਿਕਰ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਦੀ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਚਿਮੜ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।
ਤਿਨ ਕਉ = ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ। ਬਿਆਪੈ = ਦਬਾਈ ਰੱਖਦੀ ਹੈ ॥੧॥
ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਦਾ ਰੋਗ (ਸਦਾ) ਦਬਾਈ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧॥
They are afflicted with sickness of worrying.
ਕਉਨ ਵਡਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਡਿਆਈ
कउन वडा माइआ वडिआई ॥
Ka▫un vadā mā▫i▫ā vadi▫ā▫ī.
Who is great by the greatness of Maya?
ਧੰਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਦੀ ਉਚਤਾ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਕੋਈ ਉੰਚਾ ਹੈ?
ਕੋਉ = ਕੋਈ ਭੀ। ਮਾਇਆ ਵਡਿਆਈ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਮਿਲੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਨਾਲ।
ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਮਿਲੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ) ਵੱਡਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।
Who is high based on qualities of wealth.
ਸੋ ਵਡਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
सो वडा जिनि राम लिव लाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
So vadā jin rām liv lā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
They alone are great, who are lovingly attached to the Lord. ||1||Pause||
ਉਹ ਹੀ ਮਹਾਨ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਲ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੈ। ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।
ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ॥੧॥
ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਵੱਡਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲ ਲਗਨ ਲਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥
Such is high with heart linked to the creator.
ਭੂਮੀਆ ਭੂਮਿ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਲੁਝੈ
भूमीआ भूमि ऊपरि नित लुझै ॥
Bẖūmī▫ā bẖūm ūpar niṯ lujẖai.
The landlord fights over his land each day.
ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ, ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ, ਆਪਣੀ ਜ਼ਿਮੀ ਲਈ ਝਗੜਾ-ਝਾਂਜਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਭੂਮੀਆ = ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ। ਭੂਮਿ ਊਪਰਿ = ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ। ਲੁਝੈ = ਲੜਦਾ ਝਗੜਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਦੀ (ਮਾਲਕੀ ਦੀ) ਖ਼ਾਤਰ (ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ) ਸਦਾ ਲੜਦਾ-ਝਗੜਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
Landlord fighting over land everyday.
ਛੋਡਿ ਚਲੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਬੁਝੈ ੨॥
छोडि चलै त्रिसना नही बुझै ॥२॥
Cẖẖod cẖalai ṯarisnā nahī bujẖai. ||2||
He shall have to leave it in the end, and yet his desire is still not satisfied. ||2||
ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਾ ਪੈਣਾ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰੰਤੂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਹਿਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੁਝਦੀ।
xxx੨॥
(ਇਹ ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਇਥੇ ਹੀ) ਛੱਡ ਕੇ (ਆਖ਼ਰ ਇਥੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਮਾਲਕੀ ਦੀ) ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਟਦੀ ॥੨॥
Leaving this the desire does not die.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ
कहु नानक इहु ततु बीचारा ॥
Kaho Nānak ih ṯaṯ bīcẖārā.
Says Nanak, this is the essence of Truth:
ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਸਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਜੋ ਮੈਂ ਸੋਚੀ ਹੈ,
ਤਤੁ = ਨਚੋੜ, ਸਾਰ, ਅਸਲ ਕੰਮ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ।
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਅਸਾਂ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਕੰਮ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਲੱਭੀ ਹੈ,
Nanak we can distill the fact after consideration.
ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ੩॥੪੪॥੧੧੩॥
बिनु हरि भजन नाही छुटकारा ॥३॥४४॥११३॥
Bin har bẖajan nāhī cẖẖutkārā. ||3||44||113||
without the Lord's meditation, there is no salvation. ||3||44||113||
ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਬੰਦ-ਖਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ।
ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ॥੩॥
ਕਿਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਭਜਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ (ਤੇ ਜਦ ਤਕ ਮਾਇਆਦਾ ਮੋਹ ਕਾਇਮ ਹੈ ਤਦ ਤਕ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਵਿੱਤ ਨਿੱਕਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਹੀ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੩॥੪੪॥੧੧੩॥
Without contemplating about the creator, there is no salvation.

ESSENCE: High and mighty as they appear are afflicted with sicknesses originating in worrying. Knowing full value that the land and possessions are left behind, the fighting does not subside.

Guru ji state how in thoughtful consideration it can be deduced that without seeking wisdom of the creator, there is no salvation.
Further aspect to consider.
…. For example, "gyani" is used as a slur. But In Guru Granth Sahib this is a respected position. On Page 273 ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥ Nanak says a God-realized gyani is God! Why is this said in a manner to insult kesadhari sikhs?
Who with little intelligence and knowledge of Punjabi vocabulary uses Gyani as a slur? There was even religious studies graduating level to pass “Gyani Course” back in the days of partition. People did not study this to be slurred. It was a noble endeavor in the study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teachings and being able to do so better than less focused curriculum.

Hence we create issues through whimsical approaches, shallow propagation of biases and much less. Compare it versus what Guru ji's teaching and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji deserves in consideration of respectful understanding and love.

All errors are mine and I stand corrected in my interpretation of the shabad.


Sat Sri Akal.
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spnadmin

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Ambarsaria ji

Thank you first for putting isolated tuks in the context of full shabads; second for putting shabads into context of the entire bani; third for giving good insight into the meaning of language that can be misconstrued.

Personally, I voted "Other" because imho Guru Nanak never "got salvation" Yes or No because (if the sakhis can be trusted) Guru Nanak seems to have always "had it."

I am finding myself tired now after even an hour on the forum, and will leave it to you to say more. Just to add that when a message is simple and freed from layers of philosophy plastered on over centuries, it is just so tempting to make it more complicated than it really is. In the face of a field of fresh, white snow, some are content to dwell in the view of this blanket of purity, and others must step on it, so leaving their footrprints. And all of us are free to take our pick. :sippingcoffee: Just my thoughts.
 

BhagatSingh

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Vouthon ji,
I don't know how I got the caterpillar metaphor. But let me tell you it is inaccurate. It's one of best metaphors I know of when talking about enlightenment but it's just not that good. I actually haven't encountered a metaphor that was very close to the phenomenon. Even this one below is one of the best but not quite there yet.

In Guru Granth Sahib, there is the metaphor of the lotus growing in mud but not being stained by it. God is described as the one who dwells in the center of the lotus. ;)

On page 990
The enlightened is described as a lotus who remains clean even in the mud.
ਪਦਮਨਿ ਜਾਵਲ ਜਲ ਰਸ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਦੋਖ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
The lotus flower is with the scum and the water, but it remains untouched by any pollution. ||1||

On the other hand, the unenlightened is like a frog, who even in the company of Pandits and religious texts like Vedas and Shatras, remains ignorant.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸੰਗਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਜਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਆਗਮ ਸਾਸ ਸੁਨੇ ॥
The fool may live with the Pandit, the religious scholar, and listen to the Vedas and the Shaastras.

ਅਪਨਾ ਆਪੁ ਤੂ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਸਿ ਸੁਆਨ ਪੂਛਿ ਜਿਉ ਰੇ ॥੪॥
You can never escape your own inner tendencies, like the crooked tail of the dog. ||4||


Guru Sahib explain that because the frog is in clean water, it never really notices how clean it is, and takes it for granted. Doing so it remains ignorant.

Vouthon ji,
Here is a different perspective on death but leads to the same thing. When I lost faith in God, he was the one who inspired me to meditate, he was the one to bring it back! The irony... :>
Sam Harris - Death and the Present Moment - YouTube

Shabad is the written or spoken word. Bhajan/geet is sung. Kirtan is to praise. Yes amongst all, contemplation is there. Guru Granth Sahib is organized by Raags, Musical structures for a reason. It is meant to be sung and sung with great feeling. The shabad is to be felt as sound as well as word.

Music has a quality to engage the right brain and it takes us away from language (and thought) into something deeper. It is encouraged that it be combined with Gurbani for the deepest effect on the mind. That's why you always find the Raag written there with every shabad.

Saying that "Bhajan" implies that it is Hindu is like saying that "Hymn" implies it is Christian.

Vouthon ji,
Try combining some singing with the prayer meditations you do. Let me find you an example of what I am talking about.
Be Thou My Vision - YouTube
Bhajans are wonderful!

Thou in me dwelling, and I with Thee one.
 
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In Guru Granth Sahib, there is the metaphor of the lotus growing in mud but not being stained by it. God is described as the one who dwells in the center of the lotus.

Dear brother Bhagat ji icecreamkaur

Thank you for your post! Such beautiful imagery from the Granth. We believe that God is the "center" of the soul, which is the same idea but not as beautifully expressed.

"...God is the centre of my soul...Hence, for the soul to be in its center - which is God, as we have said - it is sufficient for it to possess one degree of love, for by one degree alone it is united with Him...The soul's center is God. When it has reached God with all the capacity of its being and the strength of its operation and inclination, it will have attained its final and deepest center in God..."

- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church

Saint Teresa of Avila, as I described earlier, described our soul as a diamond-like castle, with the body being the outer walls, and our soul the inner rooms. At the very centre-most room of the Castle, dwells the King - God.

John and Teresa called it the "soul's centre", Tauler "the Ground of the Soul", Eckhart "a little spark of the Godhead" etc. the Catholic mystics have all used different metaphors to describe it.

Thomas Merton, a modern 20th century mystic, described it this way:

"...At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It is so to speak His name written in us, as our poverty, as our indigence, as our dependence, as our sonship. It is like a pure diamond, blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions of points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely..."

- Thomas Merton, O.C.S.O. (1915 – 1968), Catholic mystic, Cistercian monk & social activist


Again, there is really no difference.

You remind me very much of Catherine of Genoa who said:

"...Oh Love! can it be that you have called me with so much love, and revealed to me at one view, what no tongue can describe? So long as any one can speak of divine things, enjoy and understand them, remember and desire them, he has not yet arrived in port; yet there are ways and means to guide him thither. Words are wholly inadequate to express my meaning, and I reproach myself for using them. I would that every one could understand me, and I am sure that if I could breathe on creatures, the fire of love burning within me would inflame them all with divine desire. I cannot desire any created love, that is, love which can be felt, enjoyed, or understood. I do not wish love that can pass through the intellect, memory, or will; because pure love passes all these things and transcends them. I shall never rest until I am hidden and enclosed in that divine heart wherein all created forms are lost, and, so lost, remain thereafter all divine; nothing else can satisfy true, pure, and simple love. Oh if you knew what I feel within! Pure love cannot endure such comparison; on the contrary, it exclaims with a great impetus of love; my being is God, not by participation only but by a true transformation and annihilation of my proper being. God is my being, my me. I say mine at present because it is not possible to speak otherwise; but I do not mean by it any such thing as me or mine, or delight or good, or strength or stability, or beatitude; nor could I possibly turn my eyes to behold such things in heaven or in earth; and if, notwithstanding, I sometimes use words which may have the likeness of humility and of spirituality, in my interior I do not understand them, I do not feel them. In truth it astonishes me that I speak at all, or use words so far removed from the truth and from that which I feel. I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are..."

- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Italian Catholic mystic

Her frustration in finding adequate metaphors to explain her experience to others is shared by all the Catholic mystics, and quite clearly yourself too.

Saint Thomas Aquinas went further than both you or Catherine though when he said that, "All that I have written seems like straw compared to what has now been revealed to me". He said this near the end of his life and despite being the father of Scholasticism and the author of the Summa Theologica, he wrote nothing else for the rest of his life. He gave up completely trying to explain to other people who had not themselves experienced, which I find quite sad but a reflection of reality.

Henry Suso said something similar:

"...You and I do not meet on one branch or in one place. You make your way along one path and I along another. Your questions arise from human thinking, and I respond from a knowledge that is far beyond all human comprehension. You must give up human understanding if you want to reach the goal, because the truth is known by not knowing...No one can explain this to another just with words. One knows it by experiencing it..."

- Blessed Henry Suso (c. 1296-1366), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest


So I would say that the Catholic mystics are all on your side on that front at least.

All their metaphors and descriptions are to them on a personal level "straw", but they are highly useful to other people, oddly enough.
 
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BhagatSingh

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I see. Yes the "straw" serves it's purpose. It's a signpost that says look here.

We believe that God is the "center" of the soul, which is the same idea but not as beautifully expressed.
On Page 974 Bhagat Baini ji says, and I paraphrase.
Once the gateway to this knowledge is illuminated, the Door has been opened. At the center of the countless petals of the Lotus, God abides with all his powers. From within He radiates these powers and manages things. His mind becomes a jewel, one who comes to realize God.

...At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will.
Sounds like the state of Samadhi!
On page 333, Bhagat Kabir ji describes it like so. If only one could experience it they would never forget it.
ਗਉੜੀ ॥
Gauree:
ਤਹ ਪਾਵਸ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਧੂਪ ਨਹੀ ਛਹੀਆ ਤਹ ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
There is no rainy season, ocean, sunshine or shade, no creation or destruction there.
ਜੀਵਨ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਦੋਊ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੧॥
No life or death, no pain or pleasure is felt there. There is only the Nothingness of Samaadhi, and no duality. ||1||
ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰੀ ॥
The description of the state of intuitive poise is indescribable and sublime.
ਤੁਲਿ ਨਹੀ ਚਢੈ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਮੁਕਾਤੀ ਹਲੁਕੀ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
It is not measured, and it is not exhausted. It is neither light nor heavy. ||1||Pause||
ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਦੋਊ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
Neither lower nor upper worlds are there; neither day nor night are there.
ਜਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਵਨੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਹੀ ॥੨॥
There is no water, wind or fire; there, the True Guru (God's image) is contained. ||2||
ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਲਹੀਐ ॥
The Inaccessible and Unfathomable Lord dwells there within Himself; by Guru's Grace, He is found.
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥੪॥੪੮॥
Says Kabeer, I am a sacrifice to my Guru; I remain in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||3||4||48||

my being is God, not by participation only but by a true transformation and annihilation of my proper being. God is my being, my me.
This is a gold mine Vouthon ji! I am so happy for you right now. You are connected to such pearls of human history.

because the truth is known by not knowing - Henry Suso
Exactly.

You remember that poem you posted by St. John of the Cross? That poem has become my favourite in the catholic mystic literature.

St. John of the Cross, Ecstasy of Deep Contemplation
Where no knowing is I entered,
yet when I my own self saw there
without knowing where I rested
great things I understood there,
yet cannot say what I felt there,
since I rested in unknowing,
all knowledge there transcending.
 
Feb 23, 2012
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642
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Dear brother Bhagat ji mundahug

As ever thank you for an insightful and articulate message spoken from a position of respect and cordiality.

On Page 974 Bhagat Baini ji says, and I paraphrase.
Once the gateway to this knowledge is illuminated, the Door has been opened. At the center of the countless petals of the Lotus, God abides with all his powers. From within He radiates these powers and manages things. His mind becomes a jewel, one who comes to realize God.

Beautiful. I particularly admire the use of that image of the Lotus flower and the idea of the liberated mind becoming like a jewel. For me it suggests a certain transparency, since a jewel is a glass-like object through which light shines. When we become lost in the abyss of deity, we effectively become transparent, like a clear glass object, through which our centre which is God in all of his fullness can break out and light up the world.

The great 13th century Italian poet Dante, who composed that epic masterpiece of Western literature the Divine Comedy, was also an accomplished mystic in the Catholic tradition. His epic poem is so grandiose, sublime in its old-fashioned language and grand that I cannot possibly quote from it as freely as I can from say the other mystics, and neither do I have a copy to hand. However there is this particular sweet image in one of the cantos (can't for the life of me recall which) but I know that it is in the Paradisio where Dante illustrates the state of being enlightened in metaphorical terms as the holy souls constituting a single flower, where each soul is a petal. The heavenly host (those who have died in an enlightened state) are like the rays of the sun, carrying down the sun's warmth to the flower. God is the sun, which projects His warmth, and offers it without ceasing to the flower. It is an image of being utterly consumed by God. I cannot really explain it but it is striking to read.

Saint Catherine of Genoa (with whom you will likely be familiar by now given my numerous references to her lol), while not of course using the image of a Lotus (such a plant does not grow in Europe and neither would Western mystics have employed the jewel metaphor) nevertheless captured this idea of transparency very well in language more readily intelligible to medieval Europeans that I think your image of the jewel attempts to convey to those in an Indian context:

"...When God sees the soul less transparent than it was at its origins, he tugs at it with a glance, lures it, and binds it to himself with a fiery love that by itself could annihilate it. He continues to draw the soul into this fiery love until it is wholly restored to that state of transparency in which it was born. Divine energies sear and purify the soul until it becomes like gold that has melted in the refiner’s fire. All dross having fallen away. When the gold has come to the point of twenty-four carats, it cannot be further purified. This is what happens in the fire of God’s love. In so acting, God so transforms the soul in Him that it knows nothing other than God; and He continues to draw it up into His fiery love until He restores it to that pure state from which it first issued. As it is being drawn upwards, the soul feels itself melting in the fire of that love of its sweet God, for He will not cease until He has brought the soul to its perfection. The more the soul is purified, so much the more it annihilates self till at last it becomes quire pure and rests in God...Thus purified the soul rests in God without any alloy of self; my very being is God...Everything to do with self passes away...Just As a covered object left out in the sun cannot be penetrated by the sun's rays, in the same way, once the covering of the soul is removed, the soul opens itself fully to the rays of the sun. The more the rust of ego is consumed by fire, the more the soul responds to that love, and its joy increases. Truly the soul's being united with and transformed into Him is like fire consuming the dampness in logs. Once the logs are heated through and through, the fire burns and changes them into itself, giving them its own color and warmth and power. I have no longer either soul or heart; but my soul and my heart are those of my Beloved. My self is God, nor is any other self known to me except God..."

- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Italian Catholic mystic


John of the Cross also said much the same, using the image of a "crystal":


"...When light shines on a clean and pure crystal, we find that the more intense the degree of light, the more light the crystal has concentrated within it and the brighter it becomes; it can become so brilliant from the abundance of light received that it seems to be all light. And then the crystal is indistinguishable from the light, since it is illumined according to its full capacity, which is to appear to be light...The window of the soul [is] cleansed perfectly and made completely transparent by the divine light..."
[SIZE=-1]- John of the Cross[/SIZE]
I feel (but may be wrong) that this might be a parralel to the "jewel" image in a Western context.


Sounds like the state of Samadhi!
On page 333, Bhagat Kabir ji describes it like so. If only one could experience it they would never forget it.
ਗਉੜੀ ॥
Gauree:
ਤਹ ਪਾਵਸ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਧੂਪ ਨਹੀ ਛਹੀਆ ਤਹ ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
There is no rainy season, ocean, sunshine or shade, no creation or destruction there.
ਜੀਵਨ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਦੋਊ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੧॥
No life or death, no pain or pleasure is felt there. There is only the Nothingness of Samaadhi, and no duality. ||1||
ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰੀ ॥
The description of the state of intuitive poise is indescribable and sublime.
ਤੁਲਿ ਨਹੀ ਚਢੈ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਮੁਕਾਤੀ ਹਲੁਕੀ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
It is not measured, and it is not exhausted. It is neither light nor heavy. ||1||Pause||
ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਦੋਊ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
Neither lower nor upper worlds are there; neither day nor night are there.
ਜਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਵਨੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤਹਾ ਸਮਾਹੀ ॥੨॥
There is no water, wind or fire; there, the True Guru (God's image) is contained. ||2||
ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਲਹੀਐ ॥
The Inaccessible and Unfathomable Lord dwells there within Himself; by Guru's Grace, He is found.
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥੪॥੪੮॥
Says Kabeer, I am a sacrifice to my Guru; I remain in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||3||4||48||


If Saint Catherine is a gold mine for you then just let me exclaim: this is a lottery win or a hidden treasure for me! There is such an ample distellation of wisdom in the above passage. It is immensely profound. Kabir has always been one of my favourite mystics of any religion. He earns my admiration not only for his obviously inspired poetry but also for the simple fact that he identified wholly neither with Islam or Hinduism and was actually claimed by both after his death! Such is a testament to his greatness of heart. Who wouldn't want such a one as a member of their own religion? He formed his own path, the Kabir Panth that seemed to wean out the essence of both traditions, while letting go of more or less peripheral trappings in both religions. A stunning achievement, I must say. In fact, he is greatly respected by one of the 20th century's greatest scholars of Catholic mysticism, the wonderful Anglo-Catholic mystic Evelyn Underhill, who mentioned Kabir in an exclusive category of mystics whom she regarded as achieving a "synthetic" vision of divine reality which neatly accomodates both the impersonal/personal and immanent/transcedent aspects of the Godhead seamlessly. She was a close friend of Rabindranath Tagore, and she wrote the introduction to his translation of and commentary on a series of songs attributed to Kabir in which she wrote:


"... THE POET Kabir, a selection from whose songs is here for the first time offered to English readers, is one of the most interesting personalities in the history of Indian mysticism...Living at the moment in which the impassioned poetry and deep philosophy of the great Persian mystics, Attar, Sadi, Jalalu'ddin Rumi, and Hafiz, were exercising a powerful influence on the religious thought of India, he dreamed of reconciling this intense and personal Mohammedan mysticism with the traditional theology of Brahmanism...Kabir belongs to that small group of supreme mystics amongst whom St. Augustine, Ruysbroeck, and the Sufi poet Jalalu'ddin Rumi are perhaps the chief who have achieved that which we might call the synthetic vision of God. These have resolved the perpetual opposition between the personal and impersonal, the transcendent and immanent, static and dynamic aspects of the Divine Nature; between the Absolute of philosophy and the 'sure true Friend' of devotional religion. They have done this, not by taking these apparently incompatible concepts one after the other; but by ascending to a height of spiritual intuition at which they are, as Ruysbroeck said, 'melted and merged in the Unity,' and perceived as the completing opposites of a perfect Whole. This proceeding entails for them and both Kabir and Ruysbroeck expressly acknowledge it a universe of three orders: Becoming, Being, and that which is 'More than Being,' i.e., God.' God is here felt to be not the final abstraction, but the one actuality. He inspires, supports, indeed inhabits, both the durational, conditioned, finite world of Becoming and the unconditioned, non-successional, infinite world of Being; yet utterly transcends them both. He is the omnipresent Reality, the 'All-pervading' within Whom 'the worlds are being told like beads.' In His personal aspect He is the 'beloved Fakir,' teaching and companioning each soul. Considered as Immanent Spirit, He is 'the Mind within the mind.'..."

- Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941), Anglo-Catholic mystic & (in many peoples' opinion) the 20th century's greatest authority on Catholic mysticism


In my next post, I'm going to go through that Kabir passage from the Granth verse by verse with commentary from the Catholic mystics which I think "gels" with it, so to speak.


This is a gold mine Vouthon ji! I am so happy for you right now. You are connected to such pearls of human history.


Bless you brother Bhagat ji. I am indeed blessed with so many luminous, enlightened teachers whose feet I gladly sit under. If only more Westerners were as versed in their European mystical tradition (and the in Eastern Catholic mystical tradition) as are those of Indian extraction in theirs. The West has went down a different path however. In many ways, I am thankful for the benefits of Western civilisation: secularism, democracy, science, rationalism, psychology etc. but the loss of its spiritual foundations in the Catholic and Protestant mystics of the Middle Ages and post-Reformation era is painful to see.

Your kind sentiment is returned by me to you, who stem from that web of human mystical lore from the Indian subcontinent, finding its most beautiful expression in the numerous writers who make up the Guru Granth Sahib ji, such as Bhagat Kabir and Bhagat Farid before Sikhi and the Gurus.


You remember that poem you posted by St. John of the Cross? That poem has become my favourite in the catholic mystic literature.

St. John of the Cross, Ecstasy of Deep Contemplation


I am so chuffed that you like it so much because it actually happens to be my favourite mystical text of any religious writing I have read so far. It holds so much meaning for me. How Saint John was able to explain that which is beyond understanding so skilfully truly blows my mind. I have shared that poem with Buddhists, Baha'is, non-Catholic Christians and even atheists. On every account it has been received with unprecedented enthusiasm. A life-long Buddhist told me that it was (In his own words), "absolutely exquisite" and "99% the teachings of the Buddha" and another Buddhist told me that it sounded as if it had come "straight out of the Buddha's suttas" (better not tell Confused ji this lol or we will set him off on one again lol).

There has not been one person with whom I have shared that Saint John (or Juan de la Cruez as he is known in his native Spain) poem who has not found it meaningful to their own religious situation.

I think that part of its appeal is that although John is a Doctor of the Catholic Church (actually declared "Mystical Doctor" by one of the Popes) there is nothing exclusively Catholic or Christian about it, nor is there anything even explicitly theistic such that even Buddhists and atheists can understand. Nowhere is God even mentioned, only that knowledge that is known by not knowing, where all human knowing has an end.

Its a stunning piece of literature that has a truly human message transcending religious frontiers.

God Bless Saint John of the Cross and Bhagat Kabir ji! cheerleader
 
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aristotle

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May 11, 2010
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Was 'Muhammad' enlightened too? One may say so for the sake of being politically correct, but I mean, seriously??

* "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Qur'an 8:12)
* "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." (Qur'an 9:5)
* "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." (Hadith Tabari 9:97)
And there are scores of such verses in the Qur'an, let alone the Hadiths...

I have my firm stand, if I ever made any list of the enlightened ones, this man would not be featuring in that, for sure...
 
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