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"Dasam" Granth - A Look At The Core Problems

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japjisahib04

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There is no need to use language that has derogatory connotations, especially if you're a mentor to the host provider. Respecting other people's dignity, protects our very own integrity and honour. You are an honourable man, please refrain from using such language.
Yes if these people fabricate so called scholarly evidence to support derogatory connotation then being a sikh of guru should I sit and watch like a duck, till the rape is over. Guru sahib says, 'ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥ they fabricate scholarly evidence to demean our sisters. Shame on them. When I watch these 'white seeonk' doing arti at hazoor sahib in a platter or slaughtering goat, I feel pity they are doing exactly contrary to the teaching of our guru.

It is because of these type of teaching and scholarly justification women are treated like doormat and are slaughtered in the name of honor killing
 

Kully

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Whilst there is substantive truth in your argument, there isn't I'm afraid, the evident truth required to uphold your claim that Guru Gobind Ji did not write the literature in question. What does that mean ? Simply put, it is inconclusive an argument and if you deem it conclusive, which indeed you're entitled to, that would mean you want to "believe" that Guru Ji never wrote such literature. And, belief as you know falls outside the spectrum of rational and empirical wisdom. As such, is assigned to one's faith, which is left to the individual that can never be objectively argued.

One of philosophy's characteristic methods is its careful, logical argument designed to closely examine ideas and concepts, commonly referred to as, conceptual analysis. And indeed, it's not just about concepts of things, but about the things themselves as well, meaning you and your stance in the instant scenario. As a bystander I observe and evaluate accordingly.

I must confess, I had no real knowledge of such controversy within which this discussion had developed. I've always considered gospel all that I've come to believe by way of Sikh literature. Sri Dasam Granth being one of them and indeed, there are instances where content is inconsistent with ideology, but that in the wake of the bigger picture is soon eroded when one is enlightened that the writer [say Gobind] is only the narrator of ancient Indian literature. And, that he from an aesthetic viewpoint is artistically expressing, a master piece of unparalleled "literature", notwithstanding any overriding considerations.

From a spiritual perspective, you are an advanced soul knowing that the good, bad and the beautiful are all manifestations of the one Waheguru. Those that are proposing and those opposing are no more, but His play. Shabd Guru remains unaffected since it transcends time and space. It's us humans shilly-shelling because of our ego.
I wanted to give this post a "like" but son't have the option to, so will say "Original Ji", you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
 

Kully

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I am sorry I can never believe our Guru thought of me like that!
Harikiran Ji, I do not wish to make this sound wrong. This topic could be going along much better if you were to control your impulses and slow down, and look at it academically, which I believe is what you tried to do, as long as the topic was heading the way you wanted.

The only thing that guru Ji thinks of you is along the lines of "rehat pyara mujh ko, sikh nahi".

Keep that in your mind.

If this were the case, I will no longer call myself Sikh.
Harkiran Ji, I'm really astounded to read this. Not long ago, you were telling me to follow Hinduism. Now you are saying that if, as we have, according the immediate evidence before us, ascertained that Guru Sahib is the author of Charitropakhyan, you will no longer call yourself a Sikh.

I really think that, and no offence intended, that firstly, from our interaction on this text, that you are totally lost with it. I do feel that you have not understood much, if anything about this text from your answers and also your oft-repeated statements. You seem to say the same thing in almost every single post. It seems like you are allowing yourself to be engulfed by this topic, and making very irrational statements like this.

That scares me, because you are verging on something bad, about a subject you seem to know little about.


And no, I have not been given any SUBSTANTIAL evidence to show that Charitropakhyan was written by Guru Gobind Singh... but if you show me something SUBSTANTIAL, I will renounce being a Kaur, I will remove my dastar and cut my hair, and go back to a normal life,
Harkiran Ji, we can only look at the evidence before us. To say that you have not been given anything substantial makes me feel really bad about our discussion here, because it seems that you are unable to even think consider any evidence that I, personally, took the time to research to share with you.

I'm not saying you have to accept it, but on the basis on discussion at least accept the evidence temporarily whilst still doing more research. This way BOTH of us would work harder to obtain and share more information.

I am really sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of your kaur/dastar/hair. That you would base this gifts from Guru Ji on the notion that Guru Ji cannot be the author of Charitropakhyan.

It feels like you are trying to accept Gurmat on your own grounds.


In 1973 several high profile Singhs from SGPC and Akal Takht declared it was NOT writing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
We can cover that in more detail if you wish.


Mehma Parkash states that charitropakhyan were collected stories from other sources which you yourself also corroborated. So Guru Ji did not "WRITE" these as original works.
The mini stories were collected from various texts and folk thought from around the world. However the ethos, the binding of these mini-stories, and the direction of the Charitropakhyan is totally original. As per the Mehma Parkash, Guru Sahib gave these a new form.

Read the original Mehma Parkash on PDL and see what is says there. That might give you more insight.

Chaupa Singh Rhetnama seems to take advice from the charitars stating Singhs should NEVER trust ANY woman, not even their own wives and to consider ALL women the embodiment of deceit.

As I said earlier, why bring other writers into it yet? We can look into chaupa singh writings at a later time. Let's try and look at this text slowly but surely, instead of going off in many directions at once. Please.
 

Kully

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There is no substantial evidence to show that Charitropakhyan was written by Guru Gobind Singh.
If we look at all the information avaliable to us it is saying that Guru Ji is the author of CharitroPakhyan. But to keep this topic going let's leave aside the personal thoughts and concentrate on the essence. That will give us a more comprehensive idea.

Any Granth which degrades our sister is the invention of sicking mind.
Correct.

My Guru is sabd guru which is my inner voice which tells me to see God in every human being, respect them and treat them equal. No need to even think or surrenders before these duffers who promote degradation of women or worship of deities.
I'm with you on this as well.
 

Kully

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Thank you japjisahib04 Ji

I needed that.
Harkiran Ji, please don't base your practice of Sikhi on what another Sikh says or does. Look only to the Guru.

I am fairly certain if Charitropakhyan was saying men were the immoral ones and deceitful treacherous ones .
And yes I take it personally because the message in Charitropakhyan is about ALL women,
You know sometimes, when you write posts, you make it seem like your study on this text is minimal. I'm not being critical, as some can also point the same finger at me. But to say the above only goes to reinforce my gradual view that your study (as mine) into this granth needs a lot more effort. Let's do it together.

I've said it umpteenth times, but let's actually get round to looking at the text, once we have ascertainer the characters and background.
 
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Kully

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Yes if these people fabricate so called scholarly evidence
JapjiSahib Ji, no one is fabricating any evidence. So far we have looked at several pieces of work that has come before us. Why not join us? It would be great to have you join Harkiran Ji and I, in this discussion.
 

Kully

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Fellow SPN Family, let's try and keep this discussion on track and refrain from making any post that don't keep in with the direction of this topic.


Harkiran Ji, I asked you these 2 questions :

1. What is the setting/background to Charitropakhyan?

2, Who are the main characters in the text?

to which you replied:

Here are your other questions:

background is the Raja and his advisor talking. The advisor is trying to get him to not fall into the wiles of women, so he begins to tell him many stories showcasing how women are deceitful and immoral and should not be trusted.

The main characters in each charitar are mainly different each time, however some characters span several charitars like anoop kaur. Im vast majority of the cases the story is a situation where a man is taken in by a woman's deceit and either ruined or killed etc. The end message is that the King (and all men) should never trust women and should keep women under control and subjugation.

Is there anything you would like to add to your answers?
 

Admin

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I wanted to give this post a "like" but son't have the option to, so will say "Original Ji", you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
We have introduced a more wider range of expressions other than Like... now, you can see a list of icons below any post and choose your best way of reacting to a post. Thank you.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Kully Ji if you are with him on the fact that you should not promote degradation of women, then you either believe that seeing women as inferior and inherently immoral and deceitful is somehow not degradation?? I beg to differ. You can't believe in Charitropakhyan and also say you dont agree with degradation of women. If you believe in it, then you obviously do agree that women are inferior, immoral, deceitful - meaning you DO agree with degradation of women. And you agree that our Guru degraded women.

- Applying a label to anyone based off any stereotypical beliefs is degradation. Therefore, making point over and over in a text that women are deceitful, immoral, and that men should never trust them (not even their own wives, as many stories depict a cheating wife), is most definitely degradation. The intent of the text was cause men to look at women with contempt and distrust, and that was most definitely the outcome - which is still very much alive today!

- Suggesting / believing our Guru wrote this, means you believe our Guru did indeed view women in this way. Otherwise write it in a form to share?? How then, do you suppose I can remain in a faith where our Guru sees me as only a deceitful and immoral inferior that should be subjugated to men? I believed in our Guru, for the equality he spoke of. But why should I follow a Guru who sees me only as 'the embodiment of deceit' and inherently immoral, lustful, cheater, lier, manipulator?? Would you REALLY follow someone who thought of you in that way?? What if you were led to believe someone thought you were worthy, and equal to all others, and then found out they really thought you were deceitful, immoral, and that the other gender should just distrust you and keep you in control and under their authority for fear that you deceive them or go s*hag someone else??

You said:
"I am really sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of your kaur/dastar/hair. That you would base this gifts from Guru Ji on the notion that Guru Ji cannot be the author of Charitropakhyan."
-- It's goes much deeper than just being an author. It means Guru Ji thought lowly of female gender (of which as I said, I am inescapably female) then that means Guru Ji thought lowly of me. So how could I follow that? It would mean accepting that for some reason, I was born into punishment as a female (like Laws of Manu states) that souls are born into female form as a punishment. This ideology turns being female into a punishment - so you are saying I should just accept my punishment? How can I when I don't even know what I did wrong!?

- So far the only so called evidence you gave were texts written long (decades) after Guru Gobind Singh Ji left this world. Mehma Parkash can not be used as the stand alone authority. And even then, it admits the stories are from other sources... and it doesnt even say that it was Charitropkahyan!!! Everyone just assumes that is what it is referring to! The new 'form' was the translation from Sanakrit (so that others could understand) - but it does not mean that Guru Ji intended what was translated, to ever be 'bani' or for teaching for the panth at large to read - and it most definitely does not mean he believed it! Again, that is being ASSUMED! And translation of something (writing it in a new form) does not make you the author! Case in point, I can translate Harry Potter books to french... can I then claim that I am the author of "Henri Potteur"?

- It seems we have sources that seem to build off each other, book a claiming book b said so, and book b saying book a said so etc. But no DIRECT RELIABLE sources from the time of Guru Ji. We have Chibber saying that Guru Ji wrote something but threw it in the river, and then wrote something again which was lost during battle. He never calls it Dasam Granth or Charitropakhyan. He also admits in Banisavalinama that he wrote based on what he 'heard' meaning he admits he was writing second hand account and not of his own experience, and that too in his 70s!

- The supposed Letter from Bhai Mani Singh Ji was already proven to be a forgery based on language used.

- Up till late 1800s DG existed in 32 copies all having differences! Apparently nobody could even agree what was authentic - until they consolidated it and came up with an 'agreed' list. And yes that included charitropakhyan, but what did they base that on? Things like the forged letter from Bhai Mani Singh Ji? Mehma Parkash? See what I mean by sources drawing on sources, and nobody can point to something solid from the ACTUAL time of Guru Ji! And being human by the way, can humans make mistakes?? We have a newer group in 1973 who said that on basis of research by scholars, that charitropakhyan was NOT from Guru Ji. Certainly modern research techniques are better than a century ago! They delcared that charitars were older hindu stories (which Mehma Parkash does corroborate) and that they are not authored by Guru Ji.

Now for some more Info:

DASAM GRANTH AUTHENTICITY PART1

To justify the authenticity the very first source the people give is Bansavlinama By Kesar Singh Chhibar (Completed 71 years after Guru Sahib's demise). Now see the reality in his own words--

(Bansavalinama p. 135) "The Master (Guru Gobind Singh) himself started another narration (Uchar Karani); 'Samundar Sagar Granth' .began taking shape as the Master's (the Guru's) own word;
so, it came to be a big volume (granth); I myself counted ninety one lines of that; (377). In Samat 1758, that granth was got consigned(pavayia) into a rivulet (nadi).

The Sikhs came to get hold of a few loose sheets of that Granth;
And, the Master (the Guru) composed (Uchar Keeta) another granth;
In that and in this the compositions (bani) were different; the two were seperate (378).
In this(?) one was incorporated complete Avatar;
In that(?) one was written other more wonderful (material)
Both were not bound volumes(379).
A Sikh of Lahore, too, had seven loose sheets;
(Those) were folded and wrapped up in a handkerchief;
The packets (sanchia) of this second granth, too got dispersed;
Due to warfare, these were scattered to the winds(380)."

Was the 'Samundar Sagar Granth' only Guru Gobind Singh's version of' Adi Granth'? Or, Was it the version plus some other material added to it by the Guru? Or, was it entirely different from the 'Adi Granth'? And, why Was this Granth deliberately destroyed by throwing it into a rivulet? Again, what was the identity of the second (dooja) granth? What was that ('?') which was separated from this ('?')?

Chhibber's account thus makes confusion worse confounded. First he says that, on refusal by Dhirmal, the Guru started making a new Granth, and then this granth is got thrown into'a rivulet. Would the Guru deliberately throw away Bani? or anything worthwhile? The Guru then starts a new Granth, but that, too, gets scattered due to warfare. The only thing that emerges clearly, from the confusion and self-contradictions in his narration, is that whatever the writings of Guru Gobind Singh and his camp might have been were historically lost, at least from the point of view of their historical link with the post-Guru period.


Again, Chhibar says


:"That story I had heard, I have incorporated in my book for my own satisfaction."

Chhibber being over seventy years when he finished his work, his memory is likely to be faulty. This is clear from the mistakes he has made, as shown by scholars, in recording some of the dates (Karitartav, pp. 28-29). Still worse, he has assigned wrong places as well as wrong dates to some outstanding events of Sikh history. For example, it is clearly narrated in Bachitar Natak (Apni Katha) how Kirpal (Mahant)took part in the battle of Bhangani with a wooden club (KUTTAKA) as his only weapon (Macauliffe, v, p.39). Similarly, it is one of the land-marks of Sikh history that the forty Sikhs (later known as forty Muktas), who had earlier deserted Guru Gobind Singh, later sacrificed their lives in defending him at Muktsar, and it was here that the cancellation of the 'deed of renunciation of the Guru' (BEDAAVA) took place (Macauliffe, v, p.214). But, Chhibher (p.1 52) relates both the above mentioned events to the battle at Chamkaur Sahib.


DASAM GRANTH AUTHENTICITY PART 2

The second document to be considered is Mehma Parkash, which was completed in A.D. 1800, i.e. 21 years

after Bansavalinama, and 92 years after the demise of Guru Gobind Singh. Presumably, 'Mehma Parkash' also, like Bansavalinama relies wholly on unidentified hearsay, for it has not cited any sources, written or unwritten, of the information it gives. In a way, Mehma Parkash is irrelevant to our subject, for it makes no direct reference to 'Dasam Granth'or any other like granth. It does not go beyond telling that a granth entitled 'Vidya Sagar Granth' was compiled at the time of Guru Gobind Singh, and even names some of the poets whose works were included in it. There is no way open to check this account, as this granth is believed to have been lost when Guru Gobind Singh and his party were crossing Sarsa Nadi after the battle of Anadpur Sahib.The Historical Identity of 'Dasam Granth' The first and foremost prerequisite for the historical study of a document is to verify its identity and veracity; otherwise, if the foundation becomes questionable, the superstructure built upon it automatically loses its validity.

So, let us begin with the history of the origin of the earliest Birs (original manuscripts) of' Dasam Granth.

History of the Birs

In his 'Panth Parkash' (A.D. 1871-1875, and later published by Bhasha Vibhag, Punjab, 1970), Gyani Gyan Singh has given credence to four Birs (pp. 321-322), and Mahan Kosh, out of these four to only two (p.616) These Four 'Birs' are:

First, one associated with the name of 1.Bhai Mani Singh;


Second one deposited at present in the 2.Gurdwara Moti Bagh Patiala,


Third Bir in the 3.Dewan Khana,Sangrur


Fourth the volume present in 4.Gurdwara Janam Asthan Patna.


Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi is the only scholar who claims to have examined these four Birs from the point of view of probing their history and origin. He has examined many other Birs, besides the four ones referred above, but he does not consider them to be very old. (Dasam Granth, Karitartav, p. 91). Hence, we will confine our examination to the four Birs listed above.


1..THE FIRST BIR

The first bir associated with Ihe name of Bhai Mani Singh, was in the custody of Raja Gulab Singh Sethi(Hanuman road New Delhi), when Dr. Jaggi interviewed him on 5.12.1959. According to Raja Gulab singh some armyman (sainic) happened to get this bir in the loot when Multan was conquered by Maharaja Ranjit Singhin A.D. 1818. Afterwards, this sainic was the one of the contingent of 800 men whom the Maharaja sent to Hydrabad and the sainic took the Bir along with him.He and his descendents came to setlle permanently at Hazur Sahib (Deccan), and the' Bir' remained with them till Raja Gulab Singh bought it from these descendants in 1944-45 (Karitarlav, p. 92).


2..THE SECOND BIR

The original source of the second Bir (i.e. of Gurdwara Moti Bagh) is traced by Gyani Gyan Singh to Bhai Sukha singh, Granthi of Gurdwara, Patna. According to his 'Panth Parkash' (pp. 321-322), Bhai Sukha Singh composed, or compiled, or created this Bir at Patna in Samvat 1832 (A.D. 1775). Afterwards, his son Charat Singh added five pages to it, imitating the hand writing of Guru Gobind Singh. He claimed these pages to be in the Guru's own handwriting just for the sake of monetary considerations. From Charat Singh this Bir with forged pages was passed on to Baba Hakim Singh, and from Hakim Singh to Gurdwara Moti Bagh. One 85 years old Bedi Natha Singh, who claimed to be a descendent of Baba Hakim Singh and was a resident of villatge Raghu Majra (Patiala), told Dr. Jaggi in Ocl. 1959/ that it was in fact Nahar Singh who got the Bir from Charat Singh, and presented it to Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Ranjit Singh got the Bir installed in his private Gurudwara and put Nahar Singh in charge of it. On the death of the Maharaja, Nahar Singh brought the Bir to his home, from where it passed on to Baba Hakim Singh, who was the son-in-law of Nahar Singh's grandson. Baba Hakim Singh presented the Bir to Maharaja Mohinder Singh of Patiala (A.D. 1862- 1876), and the Maharaja got the Bir installed in Gurdwara Moti Bagh (Karitartav, p.94). The story has no corroboration whatsoever.


3..THE THIRD BIR

All the information Dr. Jaggi could get about the third important Bir, which is in the custody of Gurdwara Dewan Khana, Sangrur, was from granthi Bhai Nandan Singh. He told Dr. Jaggi that this Bir was presented to Maharaja Sarup Singh of Jind (A.D. 1837-1864) by a Pathan at Delhi in 1857, when the Maharaja went there to help the British in the Mutiny (Karitartav, p.98 S). The Bir has no earlier history, nor any story about its time of writing.


4..THE FOURTH BIR

The fourth important Bir is stored, along with some other Birs, in the store-house attached to Gurdwara Janam Asthan, Patna(Bihar). Nobody was able to give any information regarding the history of this or other Birs there (Karitartav, p. 97).

These versions about the history of the four Birs are just {censored} and bull stories. How did a valuable document such as the Bir associated with the name of Bhai Mani Singh, come to be in multan in A.D. 1818, when the place was, at that time, far away from the centers of Sikh culture or political power? Similarly, how did the Bir at present at Sangrur, come to be in possession of a Pathan (and not a Sikh) in far off Delhi in A.D. 1857? Apart from this, these stories about the history of the four Birs can by no means be regarded as reliable historical evidence.

What is very significant in these stories,As Bhai Mani Singh was martyred in A.D. 1734, The supposed compilation of Dasam Granth by him could not have been completed late than that period. Relating to the history of two important Birs, begin with, in the case of the first one with the conquest of Multan in 1818, This leaves a time gap of atleast 84 years after Bhai Mani Singh Martyre (1818-84=1734)

And in the case of the Third Bir with the Mutiny of 1857. .The time gap is 123 years after Bhai Mani Singh Martyre (1857-123=1734) This was the sudden discovery of both these Birs at odd places .How its that these documents if genuine,remained unknown or unnoticed for so long,especially during the Sikh Period

And now for the inner proofs ::: There are lots of inner proofs which clearly shows this bir is a conspiracy and fake accounts.It just need to read it carefully not just go around and copy paste the other socalled vidvaans.
 
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Kully

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Fellow SPN Family, let's try and keep this discussion on track and refrain from making any post that don't keep in with the direction of this topic.


Harkiran Ji, I asked you these 2 questions :

1. What is the setting/background to Charitropakhyan?

2, Who are the main characters in the text?

to which you replied:




Is there anything you would like to add to your answers?
Harkiran Ji, I asked you if you had any more info you would like to share.

You responded with:


I'm not going to read that very long post you have written. It's too long and from a quick scan I can't see any answer there. What I can see is a rambling incoherent stance from you on this topic. You start off on DG, then Charitropakhyan, then texts pertaining to DG, then rehitnamas and so on, and go round until you come back to DG again. You go from author to content to date to author again like it's a roundabout.

It's absolutely no ideal or semi-ideal way to communicate or discuss.

The info you have posted seems to be a stock answer with you. Women this, treachery that, Dg this, Chibber this, hindus wrote it this, getting rid of my kes that etc.

I have made it quite clear that even though you have acheived a mammoth task of reading this text, i do not believe from the answers you have volunteered so far, that you have even a basic understanding of this text.

Every time I ask a question to keep this discussion going, you make huge posts, rambling posts even, that do little or nothing to keep this discussion flowing. In fact it disrupts this discussion more than anything. I don't understand what you want to achieve by disrupting the discussion.

I know that you haven't understood this text, which is why I would like to share some info with you, but you seem more keen to stem the flow of info.

Please can you stop this and just work with the topic at hand?

We can always go back to any other questions/issues you have but let's not do them all at once yes?

Now if you don't have anything to add to the questions quoted above please say.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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The topic at hand, if you look at the original post, is core problems about DG and authenticity. If you want to discuss what you believe to be the meaning in the charitars you can start a new topic for that.
 

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Good morning Everyone,

Since I'm not an expert on SDGSJ, I called a historian friend in India, who sent me by way of an attachment the following paper. It is intended as a guide and such, has no absolute binding of any sort to deem the discussion conclusive. Pls try and treat it as another's view and don't go off on a tangent to redicule the discussion by labelling it "Neo-Hinduism".

Thank you -

Bhagwat Gita to Dasam Granth Sahib

1- Preface: The purpose of this paper is in no way is, to compare these Scriptures in any manner whatsoever. This is to simply focus on the circumstances, and the role they played in building up the Indian Society in their respective age and environment.

Gita comes from the word Geet i.e., the song. Thus it is poetry for singing and definitely for conveying some or other message. There are several Gitas in Sanskrit and other Indian languages. The Gita of this paper is “Bhagwat Gita” of Shri Krishan Ji, who uttered with all his divine knowledge, wisdom and experience of life in the age of 84 years amidst the battlefield of Maha Bharath at “Kurukshetar”. The other Gitas are for divine prayer, worship and submission before the God. Whereas this Gita, in addition to this, teaches something more and unique for taking up arms to uphold righteousness i.e., Dharam in all unfavourable circumstances and to win the battle with dedication, devotion and cleverness.

About five thousand years back [?], Arjun had to face the war of Mahabharat. After seeing his Guru and all other elders of his family in the enemy lines, he puts down his arms. Then his friend, philosopher and guide Shri Krishan Ji comes to his rescue by the advice, which have later taken the shape of Bhagwat Gita. Arjun was warrior par excellence, and was fighting to regain his kingdom. When the words of wisdom could not stop him from retreating from the battlefield, Shri Krishan Ji as a last resort was compelled to tell him “impotent”, to incite him for the war.

The Indian Dharam had a drastic change with the concept of “Ahimsa Parmo Dharma” (non-violence is the supreme Dharam), under the influence of the teachings of Jainism and Buddhism. It opened a chapter of meek surrender to aggressive forces resulting in getting enslaved by this Great Indian Nation since more than twenty five hundred years. Earlier Dravidians, the original inhabitants of this land were conquered by the Aryans and declared low castes to serve their needs. The Indian rulers of all ages became shepherds, and continued to make their sheep like subjects to recite the Mantra of Ahimsa in submissionto the will and pleasure of the rulers.

2- Philosophy of Sikhism:Shri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji took up the challenge to confront the authority, which evolved during the successor Gurus to transform these slaves in to the masters, sheep in to lions and from a simple and humble bird to the striking hawk. He gave a new slogan, “If you live even after your self-respect is snatched away, it is sinful to eat food” (Shri Guru Granth Sahib–P.142). His revolutionary efforts for awakening the Indian Nation for liberating the mother land have been side lined and forgotten, and limited hisrole just a founder ofanother new faith of Sikhism.He visualised the dangers of the foreign invasion on the land, language, culture and religion. He boldly condemned the Jazia Taximposed on the Hindus and their temples. He opposed the conversion of religion. He was arrested for his revolutionary songs.The hardships of Babar’s prison could not change his ideas. For completion of his mission, he felt the need to change the psychology of the general masses, and made them fearless from the fear of death. He declared, “If you want to play the game of love, come with your head in the palm of your hand. Whoever wants to step in my path, he should not hesitate to offer his head”(Shri Guru Granth Sahib–P.1412)

Shri Guru Nanak Sahib was the eyewitness of Zahiruddin Babar’s victory over Ibrahim Khan Lodhi. He has described it saying that, “There was a severe battle between Mughals and Pathans” (Shri Guru Granth Sahib–p.418). In his mission of harmony among the human beings, he was very balanced in describing the invasion and never said it against Hindus. He was dead against all sorts of political, social and religious oppressions and discriminations and prepared the masses to fight against it. He started his mission of revolution by all means in all fields. At all times, it is the common, poor, helpless and innocent people that suffered the most. In that period, they faced atrocities by uncontrolled and unscrupulous military hoards, additionally because they held religious views indifferent to the rulers. As a result, they were subjected to harsh repression and tyranny. This has made Shri Guru Nanak Sahib to revolt and to resist those forces. He saw that his people would have to be hardened for resistance through generations. His movement was further strengthened by his 9 successors during the period of 239 years during their lives. It has transformed the Sikhs of the Guru (disciples of the spiritual teacher) in to “Wahguru Ji Ka Khalsa” i.e., sovereign people of the Wonderful God.The word Khalsa in no way related to khalis or pure n any language. Khalsa is an Arabic word used for the land of king, which is not possessed by any individual person.For this transformation, the holy Shri Guru Granth Sahib has ample verses of Sikh Gurus and others contributor saints, which eliminates the fear of death for the cause of righteousness. That is the reason; the Sikhs have become a Nation of Crusaders and Martyrs, who love the art of dying. In Sikhism, the activities of welfare and warfare were simultaneously prospering day by day. The movement advanced a step further from resisting to striking, by the 6th Guru Shri Guru Hargobind Ji (1595-1644), who took up arms. From merely saintliness, the Sikhs were transformed to saint-soldiers and imbibed further the martial spirit of heroism in living and fighting.

3- Shri Dasam Granth Sahib: Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji (1666-1708) required some characters for describing the scenes of battles in his poetry to depict as heroes and heroines of war and worship. Instead of any imaginary characters, he preferred to choose the mythological characters of Upanishads and Puranas, which were familiar to the folk, and other famous tales of the world. Some people are wrongly quoting it to prove that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. Some writers with vested interests, for cheap popularity and reservations, create one or other unnecessary controversy about Shri Dasam Granth Sahib without reading it or going through the text and its spirit. These magazines are availing the opportunity for increasing their circulation and keeping alive the controversy to meet their commercial needs.

Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is the Scripture of 10th Guru Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s compositions. Bhai Mani Singh Ji was a Diwan (minister) of Guru Sahib and had an acquaintance since childhood. He spent nine years for tracing and collecting whatever could be salvaged or whatever Sikhs had preserved. He compiled Shri Dasam Granth Sahib at Amritsar in 1734, some 26 years after Guru Sahib left for heavenly abode.He was an eminent theologian entrusted with the care of Shri Harmandir Sahib. At the instance of the Guru Sahib, he prepared the final and present recension of Shri Guru Granth Sahib. His another significant contribution was the emergence of the medium of Ardas, the daily supplicatory prayer of the Sikhs, as a continuous-evolutionary process which continues till today, recounting the deeds of Sikh heroes and martyrs to serve as a beacon light to the community in those hard pressed days.It is in continuation of the opening “Var Shri Bhagvati Ji Ki”, a chapter of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib on page No.119.After Bhai Mani Singh Ji was martyred in 1738, the controversy aroused over the authenticity of the compositions included and referred to the Sikhs divines. The discussions were prolonged and made to depend on the fate of a military expedition. In1740, Massa Rangadh committed a heinous crime of converting Harmandir Sahib into a dancing hall where he smoked and wined. It was agreed that if Bhai Mehtab Singh Ji of Mirankot returns successful, the volume of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib would be kept intact. He killed the Massa and returned alive thus the controversy was ended and solved.

During the last decade of the 19th century, the question of Sikh identity was posed with great frequency. This was a very crucial period in the Sikh history, when Sikh masses revolted against all the un-Sikh practices infiltrated in their religion and culture. The un-Sikh practices including idol worship, pictures and statues of Gods, Goddesses, Scriptures and its recitations and festivals of other faiths, and other Brahminical practices, at Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) and other Gurdwaras, were firmly opposed. The Sikh greeting ‘Sat Sri Akal’, which is actually a second part of Jaikara (War Cry–Jo Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal), which replaced ‘Wahguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahguru Ji Ki Fateh’ was revived. The term Sehajdhari coined by the non-believer infiltrators for themselves, who intend to claim Sikh but not willing to take “Amrit” (Sikh Baptism) to sincerely join the Sikh faith and adopt practices, and so many other un-Sikh rituals were also opposed. During this period the question of authenticity of the contents of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib was once again revived. This time after detailed academic exercises from 1895 to 1897, the scholars were unanimous on the recension now current and first published in 1902.

4- Language of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib: The language of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is largely Brij veering towards Sanskrit at one extreme and simple colloquial Hindi at the other, and the Zafar Nama and Hikayats are in Persian. Guru Sahib has used Prakrit, Apabharansh, Arabic and Persian words and tried the novel experiment of juxtaposing oriental and Semitic terminology by using compound expressions derived from both sources. He also coined words half Arabic half Sanskrit and sometimes words without any meaning just to create a musical effect. The text may be taken as a finest example of the blending of Indian and Semitic linguistic cultures that gave birth to the Urdu language.

The epic poetry of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is unparalleled in any language of the world.His hair-raising description of fierce battles and the hymns chosen are in such tunes that any layperson reciting or listening, feels currents of heroism in his personality. Some verses are at the tune of beating the drums of battles. Some capture the sounds as well as the swift movements. Metres are changed frequently with a view to describe types of combat. The style of using the weapons has been described in such a way that even a layperson is made acquainted and inspired to come into action.

Martial valour and weapons of war go hand in hand. Guru Sahib regarded weapons as objects of great sanctity. According to the Sikh faith, God does not have any particular name but has innumerable names, which have been attributed to Him by His worshipers in view of His different qualities. Thus Guru Sahib has also attributed several names of the weapons to the Formless God, to inculcate the martial spirit in His worshipers.Shri Guru Nanak Sahib had also described God as Asur Sanghar i.e., destroyer of demons. In his hymns, he had spoken of God applying the necessary corrective to a series of demi-Gods and destroying the demons to save His saints. That led to evolving the common masses of Indian Nation for the doctrine of Dharam Yudh i.e., of waging righteous war against the forces of evil, tyranny and oppression of all sorts using religion as a social catalyst.

Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not deviate from the guideline laid down by Shri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. Rather he brought to culmination the salient aspects of its philosophy in tune with the teachings of universal humanism and strict monotheism. This left no doubt about his attitude to the heroes of his unparalleled Hindi Epic Poetry, which he took up for his mission. In furtherance of the Sikh movement, Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has to his credit for the climax of creating a section of people always armed with Kirpan i.e., sword, which is symbol of sovereignty, out of the lot of slaves, ruined and demoralised people not for their own personal interest but for sacrificing their lives and properties for safeguarding the pride of others.

He declared in Shri Dasam Granth Sahib P.57 that, “I came to the world charged with the duty to uphold the right and destroy the wicked and the evil.My birth is to see that the righteousness may flourish, that the good may live and tyrants be torn out by their roots”. True to his heroic mission, the concept of the Supreme Being God was reinterpreted emphatically, to bring out His martial attributes. He envisaged God as a mighty, invincible warrior armed to the teeth and ever ready to use His powers in support of the good. Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji also viewed himself in the role of a saviour divinely commissioned to uphold the cause of weak and the oppressed.

5- Pakhiyan Charitra: It is absolutely illogical to view Shri Dasam Granth Sahib at par with Shri Guru GranthSahib, as both have covered different themes. There is another difference; Shri Guru Granth Sahib is compiled under the direct supervision of two founder Guru Sahiban themselves in their life time, which is unique in the history. Whereas,Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is compiled only just 26 years after the life of the tenth Guru Sahib.All other Scriptures were compiled even centuries after their prophets passed away. For example, there exists as many as 50 different English versions of the Bible, among them 4 are very popular. It is believed that the Quran was revealed to Hazrat Mohammad PBUH,but collection of the scattered pieces of the Quran into was started afterdecades by the Caliph Abu Bakr, after his death by his successor Caliph Umarcompleted it. He sanctified just one copy and destroyed the other versions. But none of their followers questions their authenticity and staunchly believe that they are revealed books by the God Himself.

The uniqueness of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is, it does not contain only spirituality but also discusses different aspects of human behaviour. Without reading it or understanding the very purpose of this Scripture, some people not conversant with the text, unnecessarily and unwarrantedly put questions mark to itsauthenticity and condemn Shri Dasam Granth Sahib quoting its chapter of “Pakhiyan Charitra”. This chapter is covered in 579 pages from page 809 to 1388, and deals with four hundred and four tales covering every type of life’s practical behaviour of men and women.

They totally ignore why and how these tales of bravery, devotion, intelligence, deceitfulness and unscrupulousness of men and women from all over the globe have been described to boost morals and morale. For examplein chapter No.331 the story of Queen of Holland is beautifully described. How she miraculously fought and won the war, when the mighty army of British attacked her weak kingdom. Her king husband died with the shock of attack, yet she managed to conceal his death till she won the battle, planned the strategy and created a new history of warfare.

6- Choubees Avtar:Sikhism does not endorse the Hindu philosophy of “Avtarwad” that is incarnation of God taking birth in human form. Even then you will find a chapter of “Choubees Avtar” containing 554 pages from page 155 to 709. This shows that Guru Sahib wanted that their Sikhs should also learn the lessons from the lives of these great souls. For example, there is chapter about “Dattatreya”. Hereveals that he had gained wisdom from 24 Gurus (preceptors) which includes, nature, different animals from ant to elephant and birds.Fromthese Gurus he adopted their qualities in life, that is howhe pronounce them as his Gurus.

7- Zafar Nama: Around 1706 Emperor Aurangzeb approached Shri Guru Gobind Singh ji for reconciliation through some emissaries when the Guru Sahib was camping at Damdama Sahib. In response, Guru Sahib sent aletter apprising him of the events to Aurangzeb at Doulatabad nearAurangabad in Deccan at his camp through Bhai Daya Singh Ji andBhai Dharam Singh Ji. Thisletter written in Persian is titled as “Zafar Nama”i.e., Letter of victory,in reply to his advice to surrender. This chapter in Persian contains 39 pages from 1389 to 1428.Zafar Nama is a masterpiece and most forceful epic poetry written in Persian.Reading upon this, Aurangzeb invited Guru Sahib for talks as he wasvery old, ailing and could not take journey, he issued orders for GuruSahib’s safe journey. According to “Ahkam-I-Alamgiri”, he issuedorders to the Deputy Governor of Lahore, Munim Khan to conciliatethe Guru Sahib and make the required arrangements for his safe journeyto the Deccan. While Guru Sahib was on his way towards Deccan, theEmperor died.

6- Conclusion: Shri Dasam Granth Sahib is revered equally with the Shri Guru Granth Sahib.It does not enjoy the same status nor does it rank theologically as Shabad-Guru as Shri Guru Granth Sahib. In earlier days, they were seated side by side at the high pedestal in all Gurdwaras. There was a reform movement against the un-Sikh rituals which entered into Gurdwaras in the early 20th century.However, infiltrators with the Sikh faces were not familiar with the progressive “Khalsa Ideology”.They got an opportunity to oppose the idea of keepingShri Dasam Granth Sahibwith the present Guru Shri Guru Granth Sahib and were succeeded in removing it. Even now, in some Gurdwaras still it is kept, but nowhere given the status of Guru at par with Shri Guru Granth Sahib.

It is interesting to know that the Sikh army sent by Maharj Ranjit Singh to help the Nizam of Hyderabad in

theyear 1830,their descendents arenow popularly knownas Deccani Sikhs. As a practice they used to carry

these both volumes during all their military expeditions. Even today, the Deccani Sikhs continued this practice

of having both thesevolumesinevery Gurdwara,but they never bow their head in obeisance before Shri

Dasam Granth Sahib. They bow theirhead only before Shri Guru Granth Sahib as their Guru and none else.

In view of the present threat for survival of Khalsa Idoelogy, it is high time that each and every Sikh should take upon himself to read both the Scriptures to become a real “Khalsa” of the dreams and expectations of the Sikh movement in Toto.
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
The topic at hand, if you look at the original post, is core problems about DG and authenticity.
Yes, it says a "look". But can you look at several things at once? I'm saying let's "look" at DG but with some kind of direction. We don't need to discuss every single thing about DG at once do we? So, as the topic veered towards Charitropakhyan, let's continue in that direciton until we feel that it has been exhausted and then move onto another aspect. As I said before, anyone coming to view this topic would not see and sense of direction or purpose to this topic, so let's make it easy for us, and for future SPN'ers to learn from this forum.
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
Harkiran Ji, (and anyone else!) what do you think is the meaning of the word "charitropakhyan"?
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
@Kully , can I just double-check, that you believe your wife should ask your permission before she goes to the toilet?
Ishna, since you have directed a question at me, I feel it my duty to respond out of courtesy, even though I know your question is in jest. But the answer is "no". The main reason being I'm not married. :)
 
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Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,248
5,184
Ishna, since you have directed a question at me, I feel it my duty bound to respond out of courtesy, even though I know your question is in jest. But the answer is "no". The main reason being I'm not married. :)
Actually, it's not in jest.

If you believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji believed what is written in Charitropakhyan, then why wouldn't you believe that your wife will need to ask permission of her husband to pee?

That is what that Arrill says, after all.
 

Kully

SPNer
Jan 3, 2016
273
25
Actually, it's not in jest.
OK, it was an unusual question, I thought you were jesting. Thanks for clearing it up.

If you believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji believed what is written in Charitropakhyan, then why wouldn't you believe that your wife will need to ask permission of her husband to pee?
We will get to what is written in the Charitropakhyan in good time. Let's not rush ourselves into it, but prepare ourselves.

That is what that Arrill says, after all.
Absolutely it is written there, by Guru Sahib's dictation, and I will be discussing this in due course.


Thank God you are not married, otherwise you would have considered her embodiment of deceit
A little rude, as you don't know me, and I you. Let's keep this discussion from falling to such low standards please. Rememeber that comments made on this forum will be read by a large number of people and their experience here should be one of learning, not regretting they came here and were subject to this opinion of yours. We are not enemies. Let's share and discuss like Sikhs.
 

japjisahib04

Mentor
SPNer
Jan 22, 2005
822
1,292
kuwait
I know Kully jee I a was bit rude but couldn't withstand unjustice with would be bride who would have entered into hell, committed suicide, run away or her life ended in divorce. How could one expect, 'ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ with the lady who is considered embodiment of deceit.
 
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Shabad Vichaar by SPN'ers

Literal translation from Sant Singh Khalsa in black followed by my interpretation in green.

ਕਾਨੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Kaanarraa Mehalaa 5 || Ang 1298

ਕੀਰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਗਾਉ ਮੇਰੀ ਰਸਨਾਂ ॥ Keerath Prabh Kee Gaao...

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