I just can't put the two things together to even imagine!!!
I'm not sure what benefits this could give to a person as I don't think that dancing can help you get more anand of the kirtan.
Certain types of music are certainly experienced better with certain dancing, but I cannot see how kirtan along with dancing can help you feel the vibe better.
I'm not sure what benefits this could give to a person as I don't think that dancing can help you get more anand of the kirtan.
Certain types of music are certainly experienced better with certain dancing, but I cannot see how kirtan along with dancing can help you feel the vibe better.
itsmaneet
SPNer
Yes, dancing is prohibited in Sikhism & even more during Kirtan. There are many other religions that dance while singing their devotional songs but in Sikhism it's very strictly prohibited.
I heard somewhere from a prominent Sant that devils dance & not the God lovers. He also said that neither be very happy nor be very sad on any news. For examples, still in India when a boy is born family dances & sings etc...but when a girl is born they sort of mourn which is again prohibited in Sikhism coz a true Sikh will live in the "Bhana" of Waheguru & will accept whats been served to him.
I heard somewhere from a prominent Sant that devils dance & not the God lovers. He also said that neither be very happy nor be very sad on any news. For examples, still in India when a boy is born family dances & sings etc...but when a girl is born they sort of mourn which is again prohibited in Sikhism coz a true Sikh will live in the "Bhana" of Waheguru & will accept whats been served to him.
We are Sikhs, not Taliban, at least last time I looked
Dancing to Kirtan seems a bit strange to me, but I know the 3HO folks like a good booty shake when praying.
itsmaneet
SPNer
Harry Ji
Where from Taliban came here ???
Don't know what 3HO is doing & if there are dancing it's not the right way !!
Dancing is banned in Sikhism? since when? It may have little spiritual value, but banned? I think not, this is how lies and misinformation are spread, this is what shows the world we are a bunch of extremists that ban dancing, instead of the compassionate, tolerant, love filled people we should be portraying ourselves as
P124 SGGS
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ गुरमुखि गावै गुरमुखि नाचै हरि सेती चितु लावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Gurmukẖ gāvai gurmukẖ nācẖai har seṯī cẖiṯ lāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. The Gurmukhs sing, the Gurmukhs dance, and focus their consciousness on the Lord. ||1||Pause||
P159 clearly warns against using dance as a medium of worship
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਆਪੁ ਜਣਾਵਹਿ ॥ भगति करहि मूरख आपु जणावहि ॥ Bẖagaṯ karahi mūrakẖ āp jaṇāvėh. The fools perform devotional worship by showing off;
ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਟਪਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥ नचि नचि टपहि बहुतु दुखु पावहि ॥ Nacẖ nacẖ tapėh bahuṯ ḏukẖ pāvahi. they dance and dance and jump all around, but they only suffer in terrible pain.
ਨਚਿਐ ਟਪਿਐ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ नचिऐ टपिऐ भगति न होइ ॥ Nacẖi▫ai tapi▫ai bẖagaṯ na ho▫e. By dancing and jumping, devotional worship is not performed.
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ सबदि मरै भगति पाए जनु सोइ ॥३॥ Sabaḏ marai bẖagaṯ pā▫e jan so▫e. ||3|| But one who dies in the Word of the Shabad, obtains devotional worship. ||3||
Much like meditation, it is definitely not banned, but has little spiritual value
3HO do like to jump and dance about a bit, but good luck to them, maybe its an expression of bliss
Please do provide some references to support your assertion, I am curious to know. I am yet to come across any references prohibiting dancing, myself.
harry Ji provided the ref..did you miss it ??
P159 clearly warns against using dance as a medium of worship
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਆਪੁ ਜਣਾਵਹਿ ॥ भगति करहि मूरख आपु जणावहि ॥ Bẖagaṯ karahi mūrakẖ āp jaṇāvėh. The fools perform devotional worship by showing off;
ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਟਪਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥ नचि नचि टपहि बहुतु दुखु पावहि ॥ Nacẖ nacẖ tapėh bahuṯ ḏukẖ pāvahi. they dance and dance and jump all around, but they only suffer in terrible pain.
ਨਚਿਐ ਟਪਿਐ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ नचिऐ टपिऐ भगति न होइ ॥ Nacẖi▫ai tapi▫ai bẖagaṯ na ho▫e. By dancing and jumping, devotional worship is not performed.
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥ सबदि मरै भगति पाए जनु सोइ ॥३॥ Sabaḏ marai bẖagaṯ pā▫e jan so▫e. ||3|| But one who dies in the Word of the Shabad, obtains devotional worship. ||3||
Much like meditation, it is definitely not banned, but has little spiritual value
2. Kirtan/Gurbani is SPIRITUAL FOOD...and Guru Ka Langgar is Body Food...Sikhs remain seated while enjoying BOTH. No body dances while eating food..and since Gurbani is spiritual food..dancing is out of place as a matter of course...
Guru Ji makes it pretty clear...whats more to check ??icecreamkaur
Harry ji provided the reference with regard to devotional dancing. Itsmaneet ji said dancing is prohibited in Sikhi. One is saying dancing is not useful worship, the other is saying dancing is prohibited in Sikhi, i.e. Sikhs are not allowed to dance in any circumstances.
Gyaniji strikes moi as being the kind of gentleman who might do a little jig if the mood so took him without fear of divine retribution, if I'm not mistaken. cheerleader
cheerleader
Really, applying the same logic as applied to Harry ji's tuk to this one I'm about to post, Sikhs shouldn't be playing tabla and harmonium either!!
ਬਹੁ ਤਾਲ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥
Baho ṯāl pūre vāje vajā▫e.
One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments,
ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੇ ਨ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥
Nā ko suṇe na man vasā▫e.
but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind.
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਿੜ ਬੰਧਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Mā▫i▫ā kāraṇ piṛ banḏẖ nācẖai ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏukẖ pāvṇi▫ā. ||6||
For the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. ||6||
Ang 121
It's not about the singing or the instruments or the dancing or any of this outward human STUFF that we do. It's about living a Gursikh lifestyle and focusing on Naam. Dancing can be a wholesome expression, fun, exercise, whatever. (Personally I never dance, because I have the coordination of a fish in a rowboat.. a la Elaine from Seinfeld...)
I look forward to Itsmaneet ji's clarification.
Gyaniji strikes moi as being the kind of gentleman who might do a little jig if the mood so took him without fear of divine retribution, if I'm not mistaken. cheerleader
cheerleader Really, applying the same logic as applied to Harry ji's tuk to this one I'm about to post, Sikhs shouldn't be playing tabla and harmonium either!!
ਬਹੁ ਤਾਲ ਪੂਰੇ ਵਾਜੇ ਵਜਾਏ ॥
Baho ṯāl pūre vāje vajā▫e.
One may beat upon and play all sorts of instruments,
ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੇ ਨ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਏ ॥
Nā ko suṇe na man vasā▫e.
but no one will listen, and no one will enshrine it in the mind.
ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਿੜ ਬੰਧਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Mā▫i▫ā kāraṇ piṛ banḏẖ nācẖai ḏūjai bẖā▫e ḏukẖ pāvṇi▫ā. ||6||
For the sake of Maya, they set the stage and dance, but they are in love with duality, and they obtain only sorrow. ||6||
Ang 121
It's not about the singing or the instruments or the dancing or any of this outward human STUFF that we do. It's about living a Gursikh lifestyle and focusing on Naam. Dancing can be a wholesome expression, fun, exercise, whatever. (Personally I never dance, because I have the coordination of a fish in a rowboat.. a la Elaine from Seinfeld...)
I look forward to Itsmaneet ji's clarification.
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Admin
SPNer
This topic was also discussed in depth a while back... might add to this ongoing discussion, so posting here for your reference...
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/23677-dancing-and-gurbani.html?highlight=dancing
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/23677-dancing-and-gurbani.html?highlight=dancing
AkashdeepSingh
SPNer
Dancing an Kirtan don't go together at all Sikhi is all about listening and inside of you hearing the Guru Ji's word not dancing around like its a party.
Most people take a line of holy book and interpret it out of context or just literal meaning. Confusion about meat eating is one example.guru sahiban never wrote a rule book like ten commandments.
However, wholesome interpretation can lead to useful guide. The references to dancing / meat eating are not specific.
AKJ move their head in high speed. You yourself move your head in slow motion. I am yet to see a dead sangat where no one is moving their head with kirtan It is our acceptance of society pressure that stops us from getting up and dancing either slow or fast.
Another point is... where to put a stop. Someone may dance vigorously, others may accept only slow one.
What about distraction if some one gets up and dance.
One the same line if dancing is PROhibited then we are also supposed to chant as guru sahiban state . So if we are not doing one thing( chant) then what is stopping us to dance if someone gets inspired by Gurbani to dance( slow motion?) just put your self in Gurudwara where very musical gurbani shabad is going on. You can not stop moving your head. Otherwise you are dead wood.
Why females respond more to singing after the raagi and also have all gutkaas reading more than males? Are they less of a sikh?
It is all in your mind. If you like .... do it. Main point is it should not distract. If it does and you are still insisting that I want to do it. You do not love humanity and and are not Religious. That is the stopping Line I would like to draw.
just my rant. take the wholesome approach . You can not impose your ideas/ interpretation ( which comes out of chemical reactions going on in YOUR brain) on others.
However, wholesome interpretation can lead to useful guide. The references to dancing / meat eating are not specific.
AKJ move their head in high speed. You yourself move your head in slow motion. I am yet to see a dead sangat where no one is moving their head with kirtan It is our acceptance of society pressure that stops us from getting up and dancing either slow or fast.
Another point is... where to put a stop. Someone may dance vigorously, others may accept only slow one.
What about distraction if some one gets up and dance.
One the same line if dancing is PROhibited then we are also supposed to chant as guru sahiban state . So if we are not doing one thing( chant) then what is stopping us to dance if someone gets inspired by Gurbani to dance( slow motion?) just put your self in Gurudwara where very musical gurbani shabad is going on. You can not stop moving your head. Otherwise you are dead wood.
Why females respond more to singing after the raagi and also have all gutkaas reading more than males? Are they less of a sikh?
It is all in your mind. If you like .... do it. Main point is it should not distract. If it does and you are still insisting that I want to do it. You do not love humanity and and are not Religious. That is the stopping Line I would like to draw.
just my rant. take the wholesome approach . You can not impose your ideas/ interpretation ( which comes out of chemical reactions going on in YOUR brain) on others.
The Galaxy that you are in is spinning like a Dervish,Trillions of atoms dance in and around you ,your mind dances thoughts constantly ,so what part of you is being still anyway.Everything dances in his fear.
I always compare the Gurudwara hall to classroom setting. Now if the teacher is teaching, would you dance around 
or note down the stuff he is saying or putting on blackboard (not that people don't dance in classrooms!)
But if some dancer in the kirtan hall came to me I would fail that test like many others!
or note down the stuff he is saying or putting on blackboard (not that people don't dance in classrooms!) But if some dancer in the kirtan hall came to me
I would fail that test like many others!
His LAW jios...Sikhs are not supposed to FEAR HIM..just OBEY.
The Galaxies spin under the LAWS of Gravity..physics etc etc...FEAR is a HUMAN/Animal characteristic...Bhaei LAWS and BHAU LOVE the TWIN axles that Drive Sikhs ???
Ishna Ji..
Yes..I would def AGREE with you about the tabla/Dholki "kutt-ING" (banging in simple English) and Chhenneh-Chhannahka-ING..Chamtey-ChamteyING ( Watch a Dhadriwallh video on U tube to get whats this !!...its all those 25 or so at the BACK action)..are referred to the TUK you quoted. ALL this is SHEER NOISE, ENTERTAINMENT.SHOWMANSHIP.PERIOD. The more IF it happens in HUGE LIVE TV Kirtan Darbaars and Nagar Kirtans where HUGE FEES are paid to he Entertainers/artists to entertain the crowds. GURU JI in That TUK warns us about the FUTILITY of all that tablas and taals !!! Nothing the least spiritual in there...cheerleader Merely CHEER LEADING TYPE OF ACTION to keep the crowds satisfied..and entertained...cheerleader
Yes..I would def AGREE with you about the tabla/Dholki "kutt-ING" (banging in simple English) and Chhenneh-Chhannahka-ING..Chamtey-ChamteyING ( Watch a Dhadriwallh video on U tube to get whats this !!...its all those 25 or so at the BACK action)..are referred to the TUK you quoted. ALL this is SHEER NOISE, ENTERTAINMENT.SHOWMANSHIP.PERIOD. The more IF it happens in HUGE LIVE TV Kirtan Darbaars and Nagar Kirtans where HUGE FEES are paid to he Entertainers/artists to entertain the crowds. GURU JI in That TUK warns us about the FUTILITY of all that tablas and taals !!! Nothing the least spiritual in there...cheerleader Merely CHEER LEADING TYPE OF ACTION to keep the crowds satisfied..and entertained...cheerleader
Kamala
Banned
Okay so we cannot dance to kirtan etc..?
I talked about this to my friend and they said that were aloud to dance to it. They said apparently a person was dancing and singing Sukhmani Sahib and a bunch of people got mad but the Guru ji (not sure which one) told the people to not get mad as they are dancing in happiness.. now I don't know if someone made up this story or if it's real.
I don't see what is so disrespectful (personally) to dance to kirtan..
I talked about this to my friend and they said that were aloud to dance to it. They said apparently a person was dancing and singing Sukhmani Sahib and a bunch of people got mad but the Guru ji (not sure which one) told the people to not get mad as they are dancing in happiness.. now I don't know if someone made up this story or if it's real.
I don't see what is so disrespectful (personally) to dance to kirtan..
Rory
SPNer
I definitely do not know as much gurbani as anyone in this thread but I'm going to pop my head in and give my opinion anyways.
I don't think dancing to kirtan can be beneficial. As Kanwaljit-ji said, kirtan is like being taught in a classroom. I think it is respectful to sit and listen closely. It's hard to listen very close if you are dancing, because naturally you will pay attention to your dancing and you will want to move to the rhythm - the actual words and meanings of the words will have little effect on your dance. So you'd be dancing to the rhythm, not the words. How is this praising kirtan, then?
The gurbani posted shows I think that we shouldn't dance while kirtan (being praise of God) is in procession - the gurbani certainly doesn't endorse it.
It seems to me like common sense should answer this question: we are supposed to understand gurbani. Kirtan in Gurdwara is to provide a format and setting where we could concentrate and think, so we can understand.. isn't that right? I thought that was why we sit on the ground, to make sure we are "grounded" (literally and spiritually/mentally).
On the other hand I love to dance, I was a little shocked and surprised when Maneet-ji said that dancing is banned.. anyone else have more to say on this?
I don't think dancing to kirtan can be beneficial. As Kanwaljit-ji said, kirtan is like being taught in a classroom. I think it is respectful to sit and listen closely. It's hard to listen very close if you are dancing, because naturally you will pay attention to your dancing and you will want to move to the rhythm - the actual words and meanings of the words will have little effect on your dance. So you'd be dancing to the rhythm, not the words. How is this praising kirtan, then?
The gurbani posted shows I think that we shouldn't dance while kirtan (being praise of God) is in procession - the gurbani certainly doesn't endorse it.
It seems to me like common sense should answer this question: we are supposed to understand gurbani. Kirtan in Gurdwara is to provide a format and setting where we could concentrate and think, so we can understand.. isn't that right? I thought that was why we sit on the ground, to make sure we are "grounded" (literally and spiritually/mentally).
On the other hand I love to dance, I was a little shocked and surprised when Maneet-ji said that dancing is banned.. anyone else have more to say on this?
Dancing is not banned. But then I have not seen a Nihang Singh in blue chola and turban dance their hearts out
As far as dancing outside the Gurudwara Diwan hall is concerned, it is your own jurisdiction. Gurbani surely would influence it just like it does everything in our lives.
Very solid point.
The thing is we are not dead and we all responsd to music, beat or a rhythm in some physical way, be it slight shake of head, tapping of fingers...or other slight 'MOVEMENT'...etc... BUT- we are not interacting or bothering each other when we do this. WE have to draw the line and STOP before it gets to the stage of movement that is interactive with others and likely to cause bother!!!!
I think if others wish to continue with this issue then we should switch to the other thread as mentioned previously. I just made my comment with reference to Ballymji's post.
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