Compilation Of Dasam Granth By Kuldip Singh

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harbans Ji,
WHY do you think this latest "mail" suddenly broke all over the Internet..."New" Email Ids are listed as "senders"...
Its a clear attemptt o IGNITE the ambers..pour petrol on a dying fire...
Suddenly Iqbal of Patna begins issuing Open Challenges to anyone to debate ..and in the next breath..he begins a COP OUT by imposing "conditions"...so and so blah blah blah...no parchees, no notes, no such person, no that person..all this is shadow boxing..Iqbal clearly knows he has no knowledge and stamina to debate anyone..he has already "rejected" Prof Inder singh ghaggha, Prof darshan Singh, Jeonwalla and friends form canada..etc etc...as "below me"..or so called expelled from sikhism via jathedar edicts..and Prof darshan Singh REJECTS him as Iqbal is a BIGAMIST and a SIKH cannot be a Bigamist..so Iqbal is clearly above everyone and thus he cannot debate with anyone..Catchg 22 !!
This "Fake Challenge"..and this Email..etc are part of the hidden agenda to keep the fires of division burning..and stop any reasonable compromise.

WHAT YOU are SAYING so LOUDLY was already SAID by so many...

1. In the YEAR of the 400th Paraksh Diwas and 300th Anniversary of GURGADEE of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE...the dg gang insisted on having Parallel FATEH DIVAS..parallel celebrations..etc etc. Many sane sikhs advise that at least for ONE YEAR..ONLY emphsais be on SGGS as our One and ONLY GURU..at least lets clelebrate this YEAR only for SGGS..but to no avail..Parallel SEMINARS on DG..were held all over..( Those who organsied the dg seminars NEVER organised ONE for SGGS ???) surprised ??) This behaviour is called RANG wich BHANG..Gate Crashing !! ALL their energies were spent on DG..they didnt have one moment for SGGS besides attacking SGGS.
2. Its CLEAR that there is an established Agenda to keep this debate alive at any cost. So its not going to go away that easily. Grit your teeth and bear it.
TRUTH WILL OUT..as per Gurbani in SGGS..TRUTH ALWAYS OUTS...and ALWAYS WINS.
Guru Khalsa Panth's Faith in SGGS will emerge STRONGER the more the debate on this book continues...

 

[harbansj24]

Every single Guru of ours taught us Sanjam and restraint in face of maximum provocation. None of them ever spoke one word more than was necessary. In fact they always understated.

But we who loudly proclaim to be staunch followers want to match or over match every word. Usne ik kaheya mein dus sunaiya (He said one point, I replied with ten points). In a school debate this may win a resounding applause.

We may win the battle but loose the war. Whoever wins the debate, Sikhi will lose.

 

[spnadmin]

Every single Guru of ours taught us Sanjam and restraint in face of maximum provocation. None of them ever spoke one word more than was necessary. In fact they always understated.

But we who loudly proclaim to be staunch followers want to match or over match every word. Usne ik kaheya mein dus sunaiya (He said one point, I replied with ten points). In a school debate this may win a resounding applause.

We may win the battle but loose the war. Whoever wins the debate, Sikhi will lose.

harbhansj24 ji

How can Sikhi lose by knowing the truth about something? In the World Sikh News Special Report - part of it posted above - the British are shown to be toying around with the integrity of Sikhi. Aided and abetted by at that time Nirmala mahants. Here is the take of Mohinder Singh Saini on it "It is all money and mafia behind to eliminate sikhism or merged with Hinduism." Could he be correct? Could this have been going on since 1781? Some think Yes it is a stubborn impulse on the part of some for RANG wich BHANG..Gate Crashing !! (see Gyani ji above) Or did i read the WSN special report incorrectly? .

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harbans Ji, Gurfateh.

Sanjam and Restraint are all very good. Guur nanak ji was snajamee and restrained...but when it comes to ..Calling a Spade a Spade...it is GURBANI...Hindoo annah..Tuku Kanna !! Hindoo is Blind..Muslim is One eyed. SGGS is full and direct...when the situation demands it.
Guru Arjun ji showed us sanjam/restraint...Guru hargobind Ji showed us when to say..ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Anyway where have you been all this while...All the "THREATS"..and VIOLENCE and VULGARITIES..are coming form the pro-bachittra nataki book supporters. They have threatened court cases, they have threatened violence and mayhem....they have formed so called Human rights Bodies (one man shows) that have no human rights cases but all about this book only...first they call for discussions..then they DISRUPT those discussions even in the presence of SGGS and Sangat.( because they fail to discuss as no MERIT)
They are the ones who marry more than two wives and claim Guru Gobind Singh as an role model..they are the ones who get Panj Piayaras to ESCORT THEM..as if they are the GURU...they paraksh the dg in front of SGGS and have akhand paaths and hukmnamas from it...

The anti ones have also done a few things..they changed the ardass..in some far away Gurdawra....but on the whole there is whole lot more Sanjam and restraint here than there...

But as I say..the more this debate prolongs..the more SIKHS will learn the TRUTH. This is GOOD. Burying ambers under a carpet..will ensure the fire breaks out later..its better to have it out in the OPEN.

 

[harbansj24]

Narayanjot ji & Gyaniji,

Yes Sikhism cannot lose if we have rational and honest debate on getting to the truth.
But do we have that sort of maturity. Already both sides have declared what is the "truth" so where is the debate. Now at just a sign of dissent kirpans and guns will be out and both sides will shout from the roof tops that "Panth is in Danger" and the whole world will watch in amazement wondering just what it is all about and then media will report it in the way it has understood it (maybe partisan) and then a whole lot of complications will begin. It is then that Sikhism will lose.
In such a situation it is natural that some people will fish in troubled waters. Then a whole lot of "conspirators" will be born. So more problems. And this goes on. It has happened earlier, it can happen again.

There are very serious and fundamental differences in Christianity too such as Catholics, protestents, Syrians, Adventists, Methodists, Baptists and God knows what all. But they know how to co- exist., without making a spectacle of themselves.

It will obvious to any impartial student of comparative religion that Sikhism is the most rational, liberal and modern religion. But the problem is we as its adherents see ourselves more as Sardars than Guru ka Sikhs.

May be Sikhism is still a young and it will take time to mature and come into full bloom and be able to serve this troubled world much better.

 

[japjisahib04]

There are very serious and fundamental differences in Christianity too such as Catholics, protestents, Syrians, Adventists, Methodists, Baptists and God knows what all. But they know how to co- exist., without making a spectacle of themselves.

It will obvious to any impartial student of comparative religion that Sikhism is the most rational, liberal and modern religion. But the problem is we as its adherents see ourselves more as Sardars than Guru ka Sikhs.

May be Sikhism is still a young and it will take time to mature and come into full bloom and be able to serve this troubled world much better.

In order to co-exist there is total silence on the part of Akal Takhat despite several serious discussion. Unlike other religions we have serious problem of challenging and making Bachitr Natak as shareek of SGGS. But what is happening, it is taken as a weakness of Akal Takhat and instead of living within the akal takhat guidelines, recently they start extending and promoting Bachitar Natak in other areas. Every time supporters of Bachitar Natak use media and challenge but then run away proves there is a force behind them and these people are only slaves in their hand.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harbans ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

"Prof Darshan Singh Ji who until recently sang stirring notes (Of Dasam Pita?) especially at Amrit Sanchars now suddenly is the biggest opponent of DG."

I mentioned about the evolutionary part of the understanding of Gurbani in an another thread which also deserves mentioning here.

Sikhi has a universal message and our visionary Gurus knew how to share that with the humanity.

All other religions stopped in time except Sikhi because they are based on Subjective Truths whereas Sikhi is based on the Objective Reality. The first pauri of Jap shows us that.

Our visionary Gurus did not want our thought process to stop in the past but to evolve itself with the evolution of humanity.

This is more the reason in my opinion not to write the prose to this beautiful visionary poetry- the road map of humanity -which they could have easily done.

Gurbani is like a prism. Each one of us sees it from our own angle and the more we delve into Gurbani, with time, the better we are exposed to different angles of the same prism which make our understanding of the same Shabad deeper and wider with time and perseverance.

One can also put it in this way that Gurbani is like a perfect camera which has both lenses in one. The zoom and the wide one.

This is the reason that our understanding of Gurbani will grow with our own evolution. The only stamp it has on it is the stamp of TIMELESSNESS.

So, the other side of the coin would be that BRAVO! to Prof. Darshan Singh ji who we all know spoke against the attack on Harmandir Sahib and also about the holocaust that took place in 1984 more than anyone else did. He held Kirtan Darbars during that time explaining Gurbani in the same context.

Once he came to realise with his own spiritual evolution about the book that is attributed by many so called scholars and historians to our Dasam Pita, he put his reputation on line and spoke out about it, knowing quite well that attacks from all sides would be hurled at him which are still going on ceaselessly.

Many who have not even read the book and are stoning Prof. Sahib mercilessly because others are doing it. It is the sheep following the other sheep.

Shall we call these people Sikhs or ignorant who are not willing to learn on their own but trust on some second/ third/ fourth hand information?

So, I admire people like Prof. Sahib who we all know from his life did nothing but serve the Panth and is fearless to share when he has discovered something new within.

Isn't this the reason that we Sikhs serve the NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR Ik Ong Kaar?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[The Khalsa Fauj]

It takes a true man to admit truth. Prof. Darshan Singh acted like a brave man and admitted he was wrong when he was singing from Dasam Granth. Full respect to Prof. Darshan Singh for making the true statement.

 

[harbansj24]

Well said Tejwant ji. Not only did he speak out after 1984 attack, but also went to jail for a few months or a year for that. But the ragis at Harmandir Sahib continued to sing protest shabads which were relayed all over the country on Govt. radio.

Having said that, Professor sahib is not a private person. He is a public figure and also a leader. Of co{censored} he has every right to evolve spiritually. But then he has to not only give but seen to have given a clearcut explanation for the change in his views to the Sikh sangat after admitting in the first instance that his views earlier were different. That would have helped to clear the air to some extent. This to my knowledge he did not do at the time he started to question the authenticity of DG. Later when the attacks became scathing, there were some attempts to clear up but those were just drowned in the hullaboo.

I again wish to very humbly state my very private opinion that this controversy should be handled with the greatest caution because of the possible fallouts.

One thing that many are already questioning is that where is the evidence that Guru ji annointed SGGS as the living Guru other than the verbal evidence of a few persons who were with Guru ji at the time of his passing away. Of co{censored} we can say that "Do you think that person like "Guru Gobind Singh ji would have left his Sikhs Guru less?" But for how long? The next generation western educated youth are going to put these questions just like the present one is on so many "hypocrasies"

It is sad that everything connected with Dasam Pita is under question such as the evidence of his having laid out Rehat for Sikhs. The evidence of his asking Sikhs to do Nitnem of 5 banis. The evidence of his asking Sikhs to keep 5ks.

Is there any authentic evidence of his having said anything at all except what has been written by Bhai Nand lal ji? This is again under no holds bar debate.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harbans Ji,

Will "wholesale 150% acceptance of bachitra natak/srabloh/sau sakhi/and various other GRANTHS waiting in line to be shreeks of SGGS..RESOLVE the so called hypocracies ? Will then AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE of SGGS Gurgadee magically appear ? Will the next Generation STOP questioning the authenticity of Nitnme Banis, Rehit etc..
Are ALL these solely dependant on whether we accept all these other books on Par with SGGS and then ALL is OK..Sabh Achha Hai !!
So far ALL the Finger raising at SGGS comes from the bachittra natakis. For each instance of UNSUITABLE WRITING quoted from that book..they come out with shabads form SGGS...just like the Bhand shabad quoted to justify what is written in Bachittra Natak.( the Bhand shabd and BC writing is 360 Degrees Opposite of each other..but still it is quoted just because it is about WOMAN ).

GURMATT faced REVOLT and OPPOSITION from DAY ONE..right in Guru Nank Jis HOME..Baba Sri Chand - and incidentally this OPPOSITION is still going strong and being promoted aggressively by the likes of Virsa Saadh and others- they pointedly ignore that Guru Ji REJECTED Sri Chand )..and then in Guur Angad Jis house, Guur Amardass Jis house, Guru ramdass jis house leading to Kachi banis, fake Gurus, and even shahedee of Guru Arjun Ji, impriosnment of Guru Hargobidn Ji and confiscation of Kartarpuri Bir ( which is still in hands of Guru Dokhis of Kartarpur). There is opposition to Compilation of Gurbani by Guru Nanak Ji, Guru Arjun Jis Pothi Sahib is undermined by the GOINDWAAL POTHIS FAKE STORY..there is an ONGOING OPPOSITION to everything SIKHI/GURMATT and ESPECIALLY SGGS and Gurgadee of SGGS. The Bachitar nataki Play is part of this CONSIPIRACY and accepting this book will NOT help in any way..just OPEN the FLOODGATES..to Sarb Loh Granth, this Granth that Granth..all clamouring for attention.
Gurmatt is TRUTH and TRUTH needs no CRUTCHES...the Guru Khalsa Panth is NOT in Danger..it will SURVIVE...after showing us all that the People trusted to this RESPONSIBILTY have FAILED the Panth...the SILENCE from Akal Takhat is DEAFENING.
Neverhteless the Panth will EMERGE VICTORIOUS as ALWAYS. The SGGS needs no crutches of any "evidence"..its VERY CONTENTS are SOLID EVIDENCE. The SGGS has stood the Test of TIME and it will emerge victorious.

 

[harbansj24]

Well said Gyaniji. Can anyone enlighten us on what exactly did Dasam Pita compose during his glorious 33 years of Guru ship? He was known to be a scholar of Persian, Braj and Punjabi and an outstanding poet.

 

[japjisahib04]

One thing that many are already questioning is that where is the evidence that Guru ji annointed SGGS as the living Guru other than the verbal evidence of a few persons who were with Guru ji at the time of his passing away. Of co{censored} we can say that "Do you think that person like "Guru Gobind Singh ji would have left his Sikhs Guru less?" But for how long? The next generation western educated youth are going to put these questions just like the present one is on so many "hypocrasies"

It is sad that everything connected with Dasam Pita is under question such as the evidence of his having laid out Rehat for Sikhs. The evidence of his asking Sikhs to do Nitnem of 5 banis. The evidence of his asking Sikhs to keep 5ks.

Is there any authentic evidence of his having said anything at all except what has been written by Bhai Nand lal ji? This is again under no holds bar debate.

Though anyone has a right to raise above question but let me tell you, but when it comes to love and sex no matter how sexy the environment is, the impotent will always raise doubt about the character of girl, about the family background and what not. Similarly those who are not blessed and are not born in a gursikh family and or not raised with values and virtues of His creator will never fall in love despite arranged marriage, thus will demand authenticity. It is all love, one comes naturally with age and for other one has to develop and create apetite. SGGS contains the baani of six gurus and several bhagat who have confirmed their experience and merger with God. 5ks and nitnem and maryada is the ultimate essence to churn and experience our beloved. Try for few days and notice the difference yourselves. Let me give you, my experience, the moment I touch the rumala sahib, I feel the vibration and when anand bhaiya meri maey …man vaziya vadiya when the bells start whistling and I come to climax or enter into smadhi I don’t know.

Mohinder Singh Sahni<o></o>
Kuwait<o></o>

 

[harbansj24]

Mohinder Singh ji,

You are absolutely right and have hit the nail on the head. We can and must say with conviction that we the Sikhs have on our own chosen SGGS as our Guru.

Because in this age when evidences are demanded left, right and centre, saying that we consider SGGS as our living Guru because Dasam Pita ordained us to do so, then the evidence is not too strong.

 

[japjisahib04]

Mohinder Singh ji,

You are absolutely right and have hit the nail on the head. We can and must say with conviction that we the Sikhs have on our own chosen SGGS as our Guru.

Because in this age when evidences are demanded left, right and centre, saying that we consider SGGS as our living Guru because Dasam Pita ordained us to do so, then the evidence is not too strong.

With due respect I beg to differ with you. It is but natural when we have ten Gurus, that the tenth Guru's must have ordained us to accept SGGS as living Guru and not anyone from outside.

Best regards
Mohinder Singh Sahni

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

WHY is SGGS even in the "Dock" ?? Why is this Gurgadee being questioned ??
Did anyone question the Gurgadee of Guru Angad Ji...to Guru Gobind Singh Ji ??
IS the Gurgadee of SGGS..DEPENDING on acceptance of Bachitar natak ?? Has Bachitar natak got the PROOF of ALL the Gurgadees ??..??/

As I said earlier..besides the Traditionally ANTI-SGGS cults - Namdharees and others like Radha Soamis, etc etc..ALL SIKHS fully accept the Gurgadee of SGGS as bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1708 at Nanded. ..........BUT NOW the "Bachitar natakies" among SIKHS also RAISE their Fingers at SGGS..and question the Gurgadee. This is done in a BLACKMAIL POSITION..threatening Mainstream Sikhs...." accept Bachitar Natak OR..we will question SGGS !!!!"..and they DO QUESTION SGGS all the way..casting doubts on certian Banis...and certian bhagats etc etc...and say certain shabads are also just as "graphic" as those in Bachitar natak.( Which is a Bare faced LIE becasue while the SGGS has been Read in Public over Loudpseakers for the past 100 years...the Bachitar natak is read SECRETLY and QUIETLY when it comes to GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS. Hukmnamas are never taken from Those places..BUT NOW even that SHAME has been discarded by the Bachitar natakies..they claim they will read those parts in Public...just to spite and show their power/hardened positions vis a vis bachitar natak...and some barebrained ones are even claiming to use bachitar Natak as "sex education" aid in schools...

2. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not "less" an iota even if he didnt write a single tuk..just as Guur Hargobind Ji sahib, Guur Har rai Ji sahib and Guru Har Kishan Ji Sahib didnt write a single tuk and yet they are also our Guru Sahibaans. Guru Gobind Singh jis GREATNESS is unparalleled anyway. His Creation of the KHALSA, and passing on Gurgadee to the SGGS have no parallel in world history.:happy:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

vwihgurU jI kw ^wlsw vwihgurU jI kI &qih

​

in~qnym Aqy KMfy dI pwhul dIAW bwxIAW vwry, is~K rihq mrXwdw ivc audyS id~qw hoieAw hY [ hux keI swlW qoN ieh BI pRVoqw kIqI jw rhI hY ik jdoN iqMn bwxIAW bicqR nwtk ivcoN leIAW hoeIAW hn qW swry bicqR nwtk (d~sm gRMQ) nMU ikauN nhIN pRvwn kIqw jWdw?

The Sikh Rehat Maryada published by the SGPC since 1945 lists five Banis as Nitnem banis. Three of these are from Bachitar Natak. No one raised any doubts until the logic was put forwards strongly that since 3 Nitnem Banis are from Bachitar natak..so WHY NOT ACCEPT THE ENTIRE BACHITAR NATAK AS Guru Gobind Singh Ji Kirt.

gurU grMQ swihb Anuswr, “jpu jI swihb, rihrws Aqy soihlw” pMny 1 qoN 13 q~k AMikq hn Aqy ies qoN EpRMq isrIrwgu qoN ArMB ho ky muMdwvxI ‘qy smwpq hMudw hY [

ieMtrin~t rwhIN koeI jwxkwrI nhIN pRwpq hoeI ik 1677 qoN lY ky 1877 q~k ienHW (7) bwxIAW dw vyrvw iksy ikqwb ivc id~qw hoieAw hY, jW ik ieh swrIAW bwxIAW pihly AMimRq sMcwr smyN (30 mwrc 1699) nMU gurU goibMd rwey (isMG) swihb ny pVHIAW sn? jy iksy ivdvwn, KojI, ieiqhwskwr,

igAwnI nMU pqw hovy qW aus ikqwb Aqy aus dy lyKk vwry jwxkwrI dyx dI ikRpwlqw krnI jI Aqy auh iks swl ilKI geI sI ! Swied ienHW (7) bwxIAW dw izkr bicqR nwtk ivc BI nhIN imldw!
Neither the bachitar natak nor any other Historicla book, manuscript etc by any historian or writer details WHICH Bnais were actually read at vasakhi 1699 by Guru Ji.
The Japji and Rehrass Sohila Banis are in the very Beginning of SGGS..showing their IMPORTANCE. The SGGS proper only begins from Sri raag on Page 13. The Ananad Sahib and the Mundwnni Mahalla Panjavaan and Slok Tera kita jato Nahin are also in SGGS. The Only Bnais missing from SGGS and appearing in bachitar natak are the Jaap Sahib, Swaiyahs from Akal Ustat, Chaupaii from Charitarapakhoyan and Bhagauti Pauree from Chandi vaar. There is no indication or historicla precedent as to WHO read what banis and when this was instructed. SGPC has inlcuded these Bachitar natak banis and also put in the INJUNCTION that NO BOOK MAY BE PARKAS AT PAR WITH SGGS. Yet the question then remains WHY are these banis from a BOOK (Bachitar natak) read at Khandey batte dee Pahul and at Nitnem ??
In the absence of clarity..the Sikhs MUST continue to follow only the GURU GRANTH in Guidnace as to daily nitnem.

Gurmit Singh sydeny Australia . Translated by Gyani jarnail Singh

1. jpu jI swihb, pMnw 1 qoN 8, gurU grMQ swihb;
   
2. jwp swihb, bicqR nwtk / d~sm gRMQ;
3. 10 sv~Xy, Akwl ausiqq (21 qoN 30);
4. so dru rhrwis, pMnw 8 qoN 12, gurU grMQ swihb; cOpeI (377 qoN 401, cirqR pKXwno iqRXw cirqR nMbr 404, bicqR nwtk); sYvXw qy dohrw (nMbr 863 qy 864, cObIs Avqwr; rwmklI mhlw 3 AnMdu, 1 qoN 5 qy 40, pMnw 917-922, gurU grMQ swihb; Aqy mMudwvxI mhlw 5 qy slok mhlw 5, pMnw 1429, gurU grMQ swihb;
5. soihlw, pMnw 12-13, gurU gMrQ swihb;
6. bynqI cOpeI, 1 - 25, cirqR pKXwn iqRXw criqR, bicqR nwtk;
7. AnMd swihb, 1 qoN 40, pMnw 917-922, gurU grMQ swihb;
8. Ardws dw pihlw ih~sw, sRI BgOqI….vwr durgw kI (cMfI dI vwr, bicqR nwtk)

• 1945 qoN SRomxI gurduAwrw pRbMDk kmytI ny is~Dy qOr qy is~KW nMU ieh d~sx dI kdy BI Kycl nhIN kIqI jW is~K rihq mrXwdw ivc ieh AMikq nhIN kIqw ik iqMn bwxIAW bicqR nwtk ivcoN leIAW hoeIAW hn ? isrP iehI ilK id~qw hoieAw hY ik “sRI gurU gRMQ swihb jI dy vwkr (q~ul) iksy pusqk nMU AsQwpn nhIN krnw [ iPr, gurU grMQ swihb dI hzUrI ivc bciqR nwtk ivcoN leIAW ?bwxIAW ikayuN pVHIAW jWdIAW hn? ieh iks ny hukm id~qw ?

• (20) imMt vIfIXo suxn qoN ieh ieMdwzw lwauxw Zlq hY ik tkswlI, bicqR nwtk (d~sm gRMQ) dy iKlwP hn, sgoN aunHW dw ih~f qW ies dI pRVoqw krdw hY ? ies leI, is~K mwrg dy pWDI, gurU grMQ swihb Anuswr hI soJI lYNdy rihx [

• <wbr> gurmIq isMG (is~fnI, AstRylIAw)

 

[harbansj24]

This is all alright. But are we all of sudden going to tell the Sikh Panth that Guru Gobind Singh ji did not compose anything at all?
Ok, if we are convinced that Guru Gobind Singh ji did write or caused to be written the 3 Nitnem Banis and not anything else can we not say that with conviction? And strongly refute claim that just because these Banis belong to Bachitter Natak, so the entire Natak is to assumed as authentic. And can this not be done cleanly without casting personal aspirations on persons saying such incorrect things? We must understand that by casting such aspirations we are only destroying our creditability and ability to debate cleanly. If the opposite side chooses to argue in such a manner that is their problem. We need not copy that.
We must also try and develop clarity on what exactly Guru Gobind Singh ji want us to do at the time of administering Amrit to Panj Piaras. We cannot try to end a edifice which held for so long without having an alternate ready and say with conviction: " Yes this it is!" Each side cannot be saying to the other all the time where is the evidence and when it comes it comes to its turn say that " Guru Gobind Singh jis work does not call for evidence!

Otherwise both sides who claim to respect the Tenth Master the maximum will not be doing any justice to Him or to the Panth at all.

 

[spnadmin]

harbhansj24 ji

The debate was set up to be un-"clean" by the British with the collusion of some Mahants. In other words, from the start Sikhs were going to have to walk the "crooked mile" to get to this realization -- the Batchitar Natak has yet to be proved to contain authentic writings of Sri Gobind Singh.

Now three things that the British in their arrogance did not figure on:

1) They were dealing with Sikhs who by and large have big intellects and are hard to fool;

2) They were dealing with Sikhs who have a cultural tradition of squabbling and don't like to give up in an argument;

3) They were dealing with Sikhs who have an equally long tradition of "fighting" for truth and don't like to back down because "truthful living" has been burned into the Sikh consciousness.

Yes! Burned, battered, sliced, scalped, and all that kind of things. Once the British woke up to these realities, they figured, we have good fighting stock here, these Sikhs won't give up fighting. What they failed to grasp from the Raj to 1947 was that these are "fighters" with brains. That is the kind of cultural stereotyping that has been going on for more than 2 centuries and that some Sikhs are now rejecting. Too smart to swallow a story that just doesn't add up. The Dasam Granth story is among other things a chronicle of cultural and political oppression.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harbans ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Not only did he speak out after 1984 attack, but also went to jail for a few months or a year for that. But the ragis at Harmandir Sahib continued to sing protest shabads which were relayed all over the country on Govt. radio.

Having said that, Professor sahib is not a private person. He is a public figure and also a leader. Of co{censored} he has every right to evolve spiritually. But then he has to not only give but seen to have given a clearcut explanation for the change in his views to the Sikh sangat after admitting in the first instance that his views earlier were different. That would have helped to clear the air to some extent. This to my knowledge he did not do at the time he started to question the authenticity of DG. Later when the attacks became scathing, there were some attempts to clear up but those were just drowned in the hullaboo.

Yes,I forgot about him being behind bars. Thanks for reminding me about that. I agree with you that Professor Sahib is a public figure not a private person but, I am sorry to say that has nothing to do with his Spiritual path.

Each of us carry our own Spiritual Torch and only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. No one else. Period.

Did our Gurus tell us when and how they changed within? Aren't we supposed to emulate their way of being?

No matter how much a public figure one becomes, the journey within still belongs to the individual. SGGS reminds us about that many a times.

On many occasions people wanted to have debates about the book with Professor Sahib but every time these things were arranged the "lovers" of the book copped out of the debates and gave some lame excuses. The reason may have been that they may not have read and understood the whole book but may also have parroted the SGGS several times without grasping its message. I hope I am wrong in my assessment of them.

I have no problem debating about the SGGS or about the book with anyone and I am no one, just a mere seeker.

I again wish to very humbly state my very private opinion that this controversy should be handled with the greatest caution because of the possible fallouts.

Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by caution and how it should be used and what kind of possible fall outs do you envision when the truth is discussed?

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[harbansj24]

Yes Narayanjot ji, we can blame Britishers for that. But now we will have to figure out pretty fast what exactly Dasam Pita wanted Sikhs to do when he administered Khande Pahul da Amrit for the first time to Panj Piaras. We cannot demolish an edifice ( I am going far beyond my pygmy intellect) and not have an alternate in place.