Chat Between Sikh And Hindu Guy

[muddymick]

apnadmin ji,

If religion did not exist what would human life be like?



If religion did not exist would humankind invent religion at some point in time?

What human needs are met by religion?

Can those needs be met in other ways?

I don't have an opinion, only guesses, in answer to those questions. However, I do think they help focus Seekr3k's basic quest.

I am not sure human life would be very different at all, as I suggested previously I believe on the evidence that man would just find other excuses for asserting his self interested ego.

Would man invent religion, Of course man would look to express his (using non religious phraseology) numinous, trans-personal experiences and to make sense of them in some theological, psychological, philosophical etc framework.
What would that be but religion by another name?

I think we can explain what needs (or at least a limited number of those needs) are met by religion when we consider that; in the west we have had numerous scholars from a purely psychological perspective who consider healthy humans to have certain attributes. Some of those attributes in some secular models are labelled trans-personal by the likes of William James, Carl Jung, Otto Rank, Abraham Maslow, and Roberto Assagioli. They say that man experiences the world beyond the dualistic, mechanistic models of everyday perception. Man experiences beyond the boundaries of self! Man has a yearning and need to experience the world in this way. Man has a need to express not just that need but that experience. Religion gives us both a method to experience beyond self and a language to express it.
I do realise that this is a very simple explanation and also an inadequate one, however it is just meant to be one example (I apologies for my short comings in expressing it)

Can those needs be met in other ways, Why would one want to re-invent the wheel?
Would it not be but a pale imitation?
Although expressions of the ineffable abound in music and literature, I am not sure they show a trustworthy path to direct experience.

:happysingh:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Religion needs religion for religious purposes.

Is religion the white bearded man with a white robe holding an ipad noting down our every blink of life?

Or is it Ms. Cruella Divine?

 

[seeker3k]

SSA

There are very good point in here. Thanks all who wrote.
I go on my own experience sure I ask others and discuss with many. It all depend what one want. If one ask a thief for advice about steeling many thief will say do not go there it is not a good work. Sure there be some will say yes come along I will teach you.
This is my experience I am talking about.
All religions talk and tell us about God. Yet no one has seen God. Is it not a lie to attract people into their gang? I mostly go by what Nanak said. Nanak saying is pure logic. Yet he did not tell us the truth about how to do what he was saying.
HERE I APOLOGIZES For saying this. I do not mean to insult Nanak. Give you few examples he said SHAB guru surt dhun chela. Shabd guru,guru bani. He did not say what is that shabd. I 100% believe that shabad is every thing to have experience. Maybe he did tell some people who deserve the shabad. But what can be do to deserve shabad? Sorry again waheguru is not that shabad. Bhatts used is to praised the guru they came to sing to. But one can start by any shabad it will get you started the journey. 1000 mile journey start with single step. It is our karms that make us deserving for shabad. I am talking about my own exp here. I did explain it few times here but people sidetracked it. But not to worry things will happen when it need to.If one read the mool manter and study it then one can know. Not just read it understand it. If one need religion is needed then what religion adopted? The last word in mool manter is gur-parsad. The diffrent between parsad and elm (bhiksha) is very big. No one understand what I am saying. In Bible it is said ( in the beginning there was word. word was with god and god is word) One have to put
predigest away. Our mother is first guru she teach us what karm to do and what not to do.As we get older we ignore what she taught us. Nanak did not start religion it is who came after him started region by putting Nanka,s name front. It is very simple yet very hard. One must have berag compassion love for all. There has been many religions and most are gone and many more will be gone too. Science will help to eliminate religions.
SEEK YE SHELL FIND.
We are not looking not finding. We are comfortable where we are. We will kill the one who disturb us. Yes we must ask who knows. But how can I know who has been there? I must know some thing to even ask question. It is like boy goes to factory to find job.There secretory ask what work I am looking for. I say any work. She will say go and we will call you when we have any work. One should know what to ask and who to ask. Asking blind with black glasses the way, will not get you any where.

 

[Brother Onam]

Sat Sri Akaal,
In general, I have met admirable atheists and have found them to be more courageous and inquisitive than the average religious person. Many "believers", I've found, are motivated firstly by fear and need for reassurance, and thus believe in many absurdities.
Having said that, I believe in true religion. As Muddymick has said, without religion there would be much ego-driven strife and confusion rather than some golden age of rationality. People need guidance; there's no shame in that. Seeker3k has said "no one has seen god." In the eyes of a materialist or a sceptic I can understand this. But among believers, as stated in Sukhmani Sahib, Har Har is present (and visible) in His/Her creation.
Even as i write these words, outside the clear summer evening sky has suddenly given way to deep purple/gray storm clouds, and little swallows are careening through the electrified atmosphere in excitement. Forgive me for being sentimental or deluded, but in these clouds and in these birds, I see God. Not as a hair-brained theory of simpletons, but truly as the Divine presence of Merciful Waheguru, playing out the drama of Creation. This same ineffable Divine I see in rivers and beautiful children, in gratitude and acts of selflessness, in love between souls, in inexplicable charitable deeds; self sacrifice and fearless fight against injustice, in mountains and trees.
Waheguru: God is too wonderful to explain.

 

[seeker3k]

Brother Onam ji
SSA

what you said about God is same old broken record. Religious people keep throwing at people and convincing them to stay in religion. There maybe a creator but so what? Does he need to be glorify and pray to worship it? Is that not ego on Goid's part. Do you know how big is universe? Did your God created only at earth or he created the whole universe? How will your payer will reach it? We are doing all this rituals for our own ego.
Read what Nanak wrote in mool manter. he dont have body he does not born. Laws has been set they are doing work with out any interference. There is no need to worship any thing or any one.
You want to stay in religion stay but dont drag others with you.
Tell me some thing where you got that waheguru as God or as shabad like those reciting for hours at a time? Did any guru use the word waheguru any where?

 

[seeker3k]

muddymic ji

wheel was made from mud then from wood then steel laterally from rubber. Now tell me which one better?
We want to still remain in the past. That is the religion way worship the dead and past.
First we them then we see the opportunity to make money we worship them

 

[Harry Haller]

Seekerji


I have yet to read anything in your posts that is un Sikh. You are talking about Sikhi stripped of all the corruption, so your in good company here

 

[findingmyway]

Let me put the question/s differently.

If religion did not exist what would human life be like?

If religion did not exist would humankind invent religion at some point in time?

What human needs are met by religion?

Can those needs be met in other ways?

I don't have an opinion, only guesses, in answer to those questions. However, I do think they help focus Seekr3k's basic quest.

Impossible question as there has been some form of religion since the beginning of time. It is a personal thing - strength for some, guidance for others and something different for yet others. Ancient Rome has religion, Ancient Greece had religion, Ancient Egypt had religion, the Aztecs, the Vikings, Australian Aboriginals. Every single civilisation had/has religion. I have heard it said it is part of our DNA!! Therefore, imagining a world without religion is pointless. Working on understanding others and your own personal journey would be time better spent I think

 

[spnadmin]

Impossible question as there has been some form of religion since the beginning of time. It is a personal thing - strength for some, guidance for others and something different for yet others. Ancient Rome has religion, Ancient Greece had religion, Ancient Egypt had religion, the Aztecs, the Vikings, Australian Aboriginals. Every single civilisation had/has religion. I have heard it said it is part of our DNA!! Therefore, imagining a world without religion is pointless. Working on understanding others and your own personal journey would be time better spent I think

I don't plan to spend a lot of time on these questions for the very reasons you give. It is however my suspicion that if by some stroke of magic "religions" were wiped from the face of the earth, humans would re-invent them. Is not "religion" the invention of civilizations? The needs that are met depend on who you talk to and the society that is home to a religion.

Religions are not "given" but seem that way. Thus the inventors pass on the flaws of their own design. The followers follow suit and create more layers of belief and ritual. When we critique any religion, are we not critiquing the shortcomings of the human mind, of the social minds, of the individual minds that invented and subscribe to them.

Voltaire: If God did not exist, man would have created him. My point: If religion did not exist, it would only be a matter of time before societies re-invented religion. The question remaining for me is "Why?" (which I think Tejwant ji answered in a probing way.)

:whatzpointsing::whatzpointsing:

 

[spnadmin]

I forgot lol. I was asking these questions, and another set on the earlier page, to help Seekr3K along with the discussion because it was getting side-tracked.

 

[seeker3k]

SSA

The religion as it is now is to worship God.
There will always be some sort of (society) religion.
What I do not like ( my view does not matter to any one) is to worship some thing or some one I can not see touch talk with.

The creator if there is one must be egoistic if he want us to worship or do the prayer to him.
Very soon in future there be science as religion. But in science religion will not ask any one to worship.

 

[Harry Haller]

Creator does not give a hoot whether you worship it or not, it is more about being in consonance with your surroundings

 

[Tejwant Singh]

SSA
The religion as it is now is to worship God.

What is worship? Please elaborate it.

There will always be some sort of (society) religion.

What is the name of the society (religion) do you live in and whom do they worship in your society?

What I do not like ( my view does not matter to any one) is to worship some thing or some one I can not see touch talk with.

So do you long for worshiping Rajneesh of Osha or any other living Dearawalas?

What is your need behind this worship?

The creator if there is one must be egoistic if he want us to worship or do the prayer to him.

As you live in a society (religion), your words, like everyone else does, then what is your creator like?

Very soon in future there be science as religion. But in science religion will not ask any one to worship.

FYI, science is nothing but an observational tool, nothing more. Hence making science a religion is oxy{censored} to say the least.

Was Guru Nanak using an observation tool when he said in Jap,"There are innumerable Universes, Galaxies and Planets"?

Was Guru Nanak using an observational tool by throwing water towards the West while Hindus were throwing it to the East?

Was Guru Nanak using an observational tool when he explained what the Hindu Aarti should really stand for?

One can go on and on.

Lastly, please explain with concrete answers what and how to worship, god and religion are related to Sikhi or do they exist at all in it? If they do how, and if they do not why not? Please quote Gurbani Shabads to express your thoughts as you have done many times earlier.

In order to do that, first you have to share your personal views about the 3 above in your own words, which are god, religion and worship.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Satyaban]

Excuse me for butting in but the conversation in the OP has a few inaccuracies but that is not what my comment is about.

Why does one need religion? I don't know about the need part but like minded spiritual people like to get together to share teachings and their experiences.

 

[Satyaban]

My friend


<!-- google_ad_section_end -->Believing in what you can't see or touch is why the words "faith and belief" apply and are always used. That is what spirituality is and where one's journey begins.

It is my belief that The Creator is emanate and transcendent love. Worship and prayer and offering Prasad, food set for the deity and given to the poor, are acknowledgement of that love.

Satyaban