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Charitropakhyan Charitropakhyan And I

Ishna

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Oohh, this is from the blog Spnadmin ji referenced above:

Tuesday, May 18, 2010

Our Nitnaim


Many Sikhs might be wondering what our nitnaim was during times of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji finalized Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also finalized nitnaim. Nitnaim is Japuji in the morning, Rehras in the evening and Sohila before sleep. This nitnaim is different from panth made one which is Japuji, Jaap and Swayas in the morning, Rehras and Chaupai in the evening, and Sohila at night. It is now up to the person to follow Sikh made maryada or Guru made maryada. Some mix it up by doing Sikh made some days and Guru made some days. Some just go with Guru made maryada. Following groups also don't follow Guru maryada or panth maryada. They are both panth dokhi and Guru dokhi. Some of those groups are listed below:
- Damdami Taksal
- AKJ
- Tapoban
- Nanaksar
- Mann Pehova
- Sirsa wala
- Ashutosh
- Bhaniara wala
- etc. etc.
Posted by The Khalsa Fauj at 2:57 AM

Iiiiinteresting.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Ishna Ji..its not baout Online "reputation" or otherwise...such reputations exist only in cyber space..of no value or otherwise.

The SRM is a PANTHIC ISSUE...for the PANTH to discuss and decide.
Individual persons can shout form the roof tops or be blue in the face..who cares two hoots ??

As you have already written SEVERAL groups called Jathebandis have NEVER accepted the Akal takhat SRM f 1935..YET these same groups claim they are the Biggest supporters of Akal takhat maannn and Maryada !! Can one treat a "Constitution" with CONTEMPT..and at the same time claim to be Highly respectful of the President ?? Sounds pretty ludicrous to me...The AKJ Cannot stand to be "seated" in a diwan where the Raagmalla is being read...many will WALK OUT..but their close associates the Damdami taksalis and other derawadee jathebandis will KILL for the right to read Raagmaala...and BOTH claim they highly respect the Akal takhat !!! which says BHOG should be at Mundawnni Mah 5. WHY ? Becasue the Head of AKJ decided Raagmala is NOT Gurbani and Head of taksal decided Raagmala IS gurbani...no one cares two HOOTS about what the PANTH says.

At the Present moment the PANJ tell a SINGH what banis to read. PERIOD. NO Panj anywhere will go against the SRM.....so there is no question or validity for your question !! Its a NON-ISSUE....anonymopus or otyherwise. YOU must use your own discretion. ..and own discretion can mean virtullay anything....one may not even read a single bani..or one may read 17 banis as my late mum used to do !!THAT is why i never answered your PM on this matter.(apologies for answering it here in public) AKJ taksali Panj will tell you no meat is allowed ..you must read 7 banis etc..and the SRM Panj at Akal takhat will tell you only hallal is not allowed, and read 5 Banis. That situation arises becasue the AKJ takslas refuse to follow the SRM of Akal takhat...and consdier themsleves the PANTH !!! WRONG. PERIOD.
 
Aug 7, 2006
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SSA Giani ji,
you wrote "If you read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....you will find that every contributor (even the earlier bhagats and sheikh farid ji) remain within the parametres set out by the Gurbani of Guru nanak ji."
Giani ji what about the contributors like baba Farid ji and namdev ji and mani more who born more than hundred or two hundred years earlier than Dhan dhan Sri guru Nanak dev ji? Who set the parameters for them ?
I know I have slipped out of the topic but I am curious to learn from scholors like you.
Bhul chuk maaf
Roopsidhu
 
Aug 7, 2006
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SSA Ishna ji,
From your posts I am also in doubts that if you are a sikh or not but I do not bother about that, All I care is that you are a blessed indivisual with better understanding of the issue.
If one has to believe the " Guru maniyo granth" then the nitnems from other books does not fits in. That what I believe. Any how it does not bother me that how others perform nitname, for me SGGS ji is the Guru and all banis, hukams and mariyada should be taken from Dham Dhan SGGS ji.
bhul chuk maaf
Roopsidhu
 

findingmyway

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Why is a warning needed? If someone is following SGGS then they will not stray and will already have the tools to guide them to behave appropriately in adversity.

Why warnings about women? Since men and women are equal and have the same temptations in life, should there not be equal importance to warnigns about men?! Or even better, stick to focussing on spirituality like instructed by SGGS rather than focussing on vice.

Do those that fall not have any responsibility for their own actions? Rather than looking at blame in the guise of warning, we should stick to the SGGS and focus on our own actions, taking responsibility for ourselves.

The concept of the charitropakhyan is at odds with the SGGS so how can it be the writing og Nanak X? What is it really teaching us? Nothing that SGGS doesn't do much much better!
 

Ishna

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Dear Gyani ji

I apologise if I've cause you any grief over this issue. It's one of the most challenging aspects of Sikhi for me personally, at this stage along the path - figuring out what I "should" be practicing as an amritdhari in training. With regards to the PM I sent you, I wasn't criticizing you in my previous post about reputation. I have approached many people from different forums and newsletters about the same topic and only one of those people responded to me directly by saying he wouldn't tell me which banis to read and which ones not to, but simply to focus on SGGS as it's the most important thing.

I guess the issue for me is I want someone to say: "No worries Ishna, I only read/recite/listen to Japji, Rehras and Sohila per SGGS. I don't worry about anything else." But of course, those amritdhari Sikhs, if they say that, would be in breach of their amrit sanchar if they have vowed to include Jaap, Savayya and Chaupai in their nitnem, so we're sort of stuck!

How can an amritdhari Sikh use their own discretion when they've agreed to recite certain things as stipulated in the SGPC SRM?

I apologise for my frustration on this issue. :mundaviolin: Personally, I've gone from reading SGGS bania daily to including Jaap and Chaupai because I figure I must accept them to be able to become amritdhari, one day.

RoopSidhu ji
I'm as Sikh as I possibly can be at the moment! I noticed you don't have an 'adherent' tag in your profile banner above your posts, and we have people of various faiths here, so pardon my question to you earlier, I meant no disrespect, and appreciate your opinion on this issue! welcomekaur
 

spnadmin

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Many Sikhs might be wondering what our nitnaim was during times of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji finalized Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also finalized nitnaim. Nitnaim is Japuji in the morning, Rehras in the evening and Sohila before sleep. This nitnaim is different from panth made one which is Japuji, Jaap and Swayas in the morning, Rehras and Chaupai in the evening, and Sohila at night. It is now up to the person to follow Sikh made maryada or Guru made maryada. Some mix it up by doing Sikh made some days and Guru made some days. Some just go with Guru made maryada. Following groups also don't follow Guru maryada or panth maryada. They are both panth dokhi and Guru dokhi. Some of those groups are listed below:

- Damdami Taksal
Ishna ji

There is no evidence that Guru Gobind Singh finalized the Nitnem. All evidence that we have indeed points in a different direction. Damdami Taksal has a politically vested interest in making such a claim. No one ever gave DT much importance until Bhindranwale confronted Indira Gandhi in 1984. He was jathedar of DT and suddenly Damdami lept into prominence. On his sudden death a vacuum was created and successors filled it.

Suddenly DT was visible and important. That could not be left to fade.

We need to consider that a vacuum always seeks to be filled and will be invariably. A simple quick read of the DT maryada can clear the cob webs. It is at variance with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in many many places.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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SSA Giani ji,
you wrote "If you read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....you will find that every contributor (even the earlier bhagats and sheikh farid ji) remain within the parametres set out by the Gurbani of Guru nanak ji."
Giani ji what about the contributors like baba Farid ji and namdev ji and mani more who born more than hundred or two hundred years earlier than Dhan dhan Sri guru Nanak dev ji? Who set the parameters for them ?
I know I have slipped out of the topic but I am curious to learn from scholors like you.
Bhul chuk maaf
Roopsidhu
Jios,
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB...chose the Banis Himself. Thats is why you will find Kabir bnai almost as huge a granth as the SGGS..left OUTSIDE the SGGS by Guru nanak ji and Guru Arjun Ji sahib. Those Banis (Kabir panthi Granth) DO NOT go by the "parametres" of Guru Ji.
Same goes for baba farid Jis Sloks ( the ones in SGGS are NOT his complete compositions)...and all the other Bhagats etc also wrote alot more which Guru nanak ji obviously didnt include in SGGS.

I hope this clarifies.
jarnail singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Here is another schoalrly paper presented at Guru nanak University but "REJECTED" for obvious reasons...
It shows that the SANT-SIPAHI tradition flows form Guru Head..Guru nanak ji Sahib Himself...and doesnt depend on dg or other outside sources not included in SGGS the Complete Guru..

http://singhgurtej.blogspot.com/2011/07/sikh-war-code-its-spiritual-inspiration.html?spref=fb


The Sikh War Code, its Spiritual Inspiration and Impact on History

[This paper was presented to the Guru Nanak University for publication in response to their invitation. It was not published because the University did not accept that Guru Nanak had political concerns. This was the primary objection. My view, strengthened by this episode, is that certain people in our universities are succumbing to the diktat of the permanent cultural majority to bring Sikhi within the ambit of previously prevailing culture. In my opinion this cultural aggression needs to be resisted]




It was Guru Nanak who laid down the basic rules that must govern the waging of war by his disciples. Besides pointing out the code of conduct in conflicts, he also spoke about the mental equipment, spiritual training and self discipline of a soldier. He is again the one who defines what makes conflict legitimate, the extent to which it is to be pursued by individual soldiers and armies and the purpose to be achieved by waging war. He talks of brave knights and martyrs being honoured at Akalpurakh’s Court (tithe jodh mahabal soor). Bhai Gurdas, one of his earliest biographers, calls the Guru a ‘roaring lion’ and a ‘conquering hero.’ He goes on to commemorate him in a ballad composed in the form of a Vaar that is normally employed to eulogise knights and to immortalise battles and victories. The ideal human of Guru Arjun’s concept is ‘Akalpurakh’s champion.’ (haun gosain ka pehalwanra) The mental and physical training required of a spiritually developed person is aimed at imbibing the attributes of God which the Guru has revealed. The incessant striving to acquire these virtues and making them a part of individual character is defined as salvation. Thereafter, always standing up for the implementation of the Divine Will, as revealed in the Guru’s word, is all that remains to make salvation an eternal reality. Of the greatest importance, perhaps, is also the method by which salvation is to be achieved as well as the nature of evil that was to be overcome in the process. It is possible to trace all this in the utterances of Guru Nanak. Succeeding Gurus and other holy persons (bhagta), whose word was accepted as part of the final Sikh scripture, appear to be in accord with the Guru’s thought. Therefore it is pertinent recall the conduct of Sikh armies and soldiers engaged in actual warfare, with a view to knowing the extent to which the rules, so meticulously codified, were followed.
2. In the opening verse of Guru Granth, Guru Nanak lays down, amongst others, the three most important attributes of the Creator that went a long way in motivating his followers’ conduct during war. These are: ‘The Ultimate Reality is 1,’ S/He is fearless and has no enmity.’ The use of the numeral is deliberate and is meant to convey absolute oneness. ‘It is not my one God’ that the Guru believed in but the only One for all creation. The effect of this belief translates into fearless combat in battlefield and humane treatment of the defeated. Guru Nanak’s ideal devotee of the Divne is one who is so ‘enthusiastic’ about playing the ‘game of love’ that he is prepared to stake his life in the venture (to ‘carry his head on the palm of his hand.’) A person must think nothing of making the ultimate sacrifice while walking on the spiritual path. (je tau prem khelan ka chaou sir dhar tali gali mori aao).
3. The Guru expects his followers not to shirk battle for a worthy cause. The cause has been defined clearly. It is the Creator’s Will that absolute justice should pervade all human institutions, that everyone must enjoy the freedom of worship and to preserve ones human dignity. This is the basis of the Sikh political thought in Guru Granth. Akalpurakh disapproves of oppression (har jio hankar naa bhaaviee) born of impulse of aggression. In his Babarvani verses, Guru Nanak expounds the theory that it is necessary for a spiritually oriented person to physically resist evil-doers. He denounces the Lodhis who failed to protect the women of Hind and its culture. The conclusion is that the devotees who strive for spiritual progress must resist oppression to express their love for Him. Physical resistance to evil is therefore necessary for a person having spiritual aspirations. This is the ‘righteous cause’ that must be pursued ‘to the point of courting martyrdom (mar se mansa sooria hak hai je hoe marahe parvano).’ Defining the righteous cause more explicitly, Guru Arjun told Adit Soini, ‘while engaged in battle, contemplate on Akalpurakh, Who destroys evil-doers; fight an ethical battle on behalf of the oppressed poor.’[1] The same idea is contained in the verses of Kabir included in the scripture. ‘Truly brave is one who fights for the deprived,’ says the Bhagat. (soora so pehchanie jo lare deen ke het). While engaged in this pious duty, the battlefield must never be abandoned. (purja purja kat marai kbhun na chhade khet).
4. We learn from literature other than the scripture that the succeeding Gurus blessed professional soldiers and encouraged them to develop the right kind of attitude towards warlike engagements. Guru Angad, the second Nanak, for instance, laid down an important rule of warfare when he told a military-man Mallu Shahi, ‘do not initiate a quarrel with any one. If a battle is imposed upon you, do not give thought to whether you are well or ill equipped, enter the fray.’[2] While wanton aggression is never justified, it is immoral to avoid war ‘at any cost.’ But even when engaged in battle, the all-important discipline to conform to is that there should be no violence at heart. Guru Arjun advised Tiloka Suhar, who was a soldier in the Mughal army, ‘do not be violent at heart but remain steadfast in your profession of a soldier'.[3]Guru Hargobind, the Sixth Nanak, fighting a ‘to the finish duel’ with the Mughal commander Painda Khan on the battlefield, would not strike first or in anger. Mohsin Fani recalls an incident in which the Guru warded off an attacker and while dealing him a fatal blow calmly observed, ‘this is how the sword is wielded.’ He did not forget his primary duty of a teacher even in those grim circumstances. The related injunction is also derived from the famous letter Zafarnamah (in Persian), supposedly written by the Tenth Guru to Aurangzeb. The oft quoted couplet is to the effect, that ‘when all peaceful strivings is of no avail, righteousness it is then to grasp the sword’. These sermons, prescriptions and acts became the basis of the firm stipulation that weapons were not to be taken up in anger or with aggressive intent and only in the last resort. They are reflected in the Rehatnamas put together by devoted Sikhs much later.[4] In the Guru’s eyes nothing makes the cause more worthy than the taking up of weapons only when every other possibility of getting justice is exhausted.
5. This attitude to war also implies humane treatment of prisoners of war, the injured, those who give up confrontation, non-combatants and the slain. The Tenth Nanak, Gobind Singh specifically forbade the massacre of fleeing enemy. This injunction is based on the Sikh doctrine, that that there is no ‘other’ among humans, as all derive origin from the same divine entity, the common Father/Mother of all. (na ko bairi nahi begana sagal sang ham ko ban aiee: sab ko meet ham apna keena ham sabhna ke sajan). It further says that evil is the result of misconception and wrong orientation of the human mind. People are intrinsically good, not bad. Once they abandon evil ways or cease to support evil causes, they must not be molested. Qazi Nur Muhammad records, `they never kill a retreating foe.’[5] Karl Marx thinks that the Sikhs failed to consolidate their victory over the British at Mudki on December 21, 1945 because they would not attack a defeated foe.[6]
6. An application of the rule relating to prisoners of war is documented again and again. George Forester records that the Afghan Prisoners of War were compelled to clean the mess they created at the shrine at Amritsar. But, “the Sikhs – set bounds to impulse of revenge and though the Afghan massacre and persecution must have been deeply imprinted on their minds, they did not, -- destroy one prisoner in cold blood.”[7] Rattan Singh Bhangu’s father Rai Singh participated in a battle against Jahan Khan, the Afghan Governor of Sarhind, ‘in the middle of November 1763 CE.’ Rattan Singh has constructed the incidents that happened on the battlefields on the information received from his father. He says, `the Singhs did not attack the enemy soldiers who abandoned their weapons. They sought no revenge for they were the personification of mercy.’[8] When, after a duel with Guru Hagobind, Painda Khan, who was lying mortally wounded, repented, the merciful Guru took his head upon his lap and shielded the sun from his eyes saying, ‘Painda it is time to repeat the ‘kalmia.’ Painda Khan was overwhelmed by the gesture. His last words were, ‘now Guru, your sword has become my kalmia.’ In a battle against the King of Kahlur in about 1711 CE, the Sikh commander in chief Banda Singh Bahadur, issued a military order, ‘do not pursue a retreating soldier.’ At the conclusion of the same battle, Sikh soldiers dug graves and buried the thirteen hundred dead since now they were beyond enmity.[9] This tradition dates at least from the time of Guru Gobind Singh who ordered a decent burial for the dead enemy after the battle of Mukatsar. The Sikh Commonwealth faced the greatest danger from Maulvi Sayyid Ahmed Brailvi who, with the British support, led a Jehad against it (1831CE). His head was cut off by a Sikh soldier who presented it to Kanwar Sher Singh. He searched for the Sayyid’s body, retrieved it from the battlefield, wrapped it in an expensive shawl and called a Maulvi to perform the last rites according to the Islamic custom. All his dead companions were honourably buried. Their leader received state honours.[10]
7. Guru Gobind Singh, encouraged medical treatment of the injured enemy, even in the field of battle. He went to the extent of organising a volunteer force headed by Bhai Kanheyia, in the closing years of the 17th century to pursue this injunction. A section of the Sikhs who continue with Bhai Kanheya’s work of serving others, are organised today as Sewapanthis.
8. In the above mentioned battle “Jahan Khan himself took to flight. All his camp equipage, relatives and dependants fell into the hands of the Sikhs. ‘But as the Sikhs of old would not lay their hands on women,’ says Ali-ud-Din, ‘they sent them safely to Jammu.’[11] The wife of Jahan Khan was amongst the captured and it was on her wish that safe journey to Jammu was arranged. A little later, Sarbuland Khan the military commander of Rohtas was defeated and captured by Sardar Charhat Singh. “He was – treated with respect—as a highly placed Afghan official and as an uncle of Ahmed Shah. He was so pleased with the kindness he received at the hands of the Sardar, that he offered to serve under him as a governor if Charhat Singh were to proclaim himself a king. [Charat Singh informed him] ‘kingship is already bestowed upon us by the Guru.’ [The prisoner was] allowed to return to his country.”[12]
9. Ideally from the Sikh point of view, warfare is a voluntary activity born of intense personal conviction. It is in this context that the war cry of ‘jo bole so nhal, sat siri akal,’ (‘every felicity is to him who volunteers to join up on hearing the cry of battle being waged for the cause of the Deathless’) becomes meaningful. Nothing illustrates this point better than the history of celebrated martyrs like Bhai Tara Singh Wan, Gurbaksh Singh Nihang and others. According to Rattan Singh Bhangu, before the final battle in which death was assured, Tara Singh told his companions that those who wanted to escape could do so. Several went away. He also wrote to those who had promised to share with him their last moments on earth of which, at least three came, joined him and eventually died along with him the next day. Shah Muhammad, recording the happenings relating to a crucial battle of the Anglo-Sikh war, recalls the resolve of the Khalsa army to the effect, ‘now it is the privilege of the Khalsa to lead a frontal attack. Let not the poor (those who have joined the army for earning livelihood,) be pushed to the front.’ (kalghidhar de khalse hun hon moohre, agge hor garib na dhakkanai jee). In many other situations similar conduct of the Sikh soldiers has been noted. In his last battle with the Indian army, Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa in his characteristically humorous way, told those around him, ‘it appears that at dawn we must make the last sortie. Death is assured. Those who desire to live are welcome to escape. Don’t say afterwards that this saadh propelled us into the jaws of death (pher na akhio es saadh ne sanoo marva ditta).’ Those who wanted to go were allowed to depart amicably. The writer of these lines has met at least four persons who had escaped after this pronouncement.
10. ‘Totally devoted ones boldly face battle but the uninitiated run away from conflict,’ says the Guru Granth. (daage hoe so ran meh joojhai bin dage bhag jaee). This sentiment is echoed in the Rehatnamas, is prominent in the conduct of Sikh soldiers and has been mentioned by historians throughout the ages.[13] That the Sikh soldier took his spiritual commitment seriously is also borne out by accounts of the Anglo—Sikh wars.[14]
11. Steadfastness in battle became the hallmark of the Sikh soldier. Sikh religious discipline prescribes that when he is fighting for Truth as he knows it, there is not an inch of the field that he can yield. (purja purja kat marai kabhoon na chhade khet). This was the tradition. Gurbaksh Singh Nihang faced the whole army of Ahmed Shah Abdali with just thirty companions. Of him and his companions, Bhangu says that they all died while advancing towards the enemy. He says the same of the forty martyrs of Muktsar who all fell while advancing in defence of the Guru. After the battle, the Guru assigned them honour after counting the steps that they had advanced from the central point of battle. Karl Marx instinctively knew that in the Khalsa armies, the British people were facing a different kind of a soldier. He thinks the British commander-in-chief’s “asinine stupidity” was responsible for the defeat of the British forces at Pherushahar. “Gough imagined he could do anything to the Sikhs, in the same way as to the easily frightened Hindus of the South, by charging them with bayonets.”[15] J. D. Cunningham who was present on the battlefield during the Anglo-Sikh wars observed about the British cavalry charge, “nor was it until the mass had been three times ridden through that the Sikhs dispersed. The charge was timely and bold; but the ground was more thickly strewn with the bodies of victorious horsemen than of the beaten infantry. The true Sikh was not easily cowed.”[16]
12. The earliest time to which the existence of a fully developed Sikh war code is traceable is the time of Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Santokh Singh, who did a considerable amount of research to write his popularly known Suraj Prakash, is certain that there existed a written code of conduct for the Sikhs participating in war. He refers to it as gurshastra. He specifically refers to one of its provisions, namely, that women were not to be molested under any circumstances. In this context, and as a measure particularly relevant to wartime situation, members of the Order of the Khalsa were forbidden to have intercourse with Muslim women as Muslims were the main enemies they were fighting at that time and their women were most likely to fall into the hands of the Khalsa. A conversation on the question of the ban is reported to have taken place between Guru Gobind Singh and a group of Sikhs. ‘All the Sikhs assembled together to ask the ‘source of all values’. Their question was: ‘the Turks routinely rape women of Hind. Sikhs would be doing well to avenge this. Why does the Guru’s code (gurshastra) prohibit molestation of women? Then, at that time, the True Guru spoke thus; I want the panth to scale (new moral) heights. I will not condemn it to depths of degradation.’ It appears that these precepts were duly formally codified and strict adherence to them was stipulated as the Guru’s wish – the strongest of all sanctions for a believing Sikh. Bhangu mentions that Banda Bahadur, appointed commander-in-chief of the Sikh forces by the Guru, used to repeat his general orders on the battlefield by the beat of drums everyday. One order that was repeated daily was, ‘nobody is to touch ornaments on the person of a woman. Similarly, no man is to be divested of the clothes worn by him. More particularly, a person’s turban was not to be removed.’[17] Of course, it all started with Guru Nanak’s deep anguish and distress over the rape of the women of Hind by the invading armies of the Mughal Babur as depicted in the babarvani verses. (paap ki janj lai kabulon dhaiya jori mange daan ve Lalo).
13. There is another reference, which in spite of scepticism, suggests that a compendium of the Sikh war code perhaps existed at the time of Ranjit Singh. “—The Darbar under the guidance of Ranjit Singh framed certain regulations for the army. What these regulations were we cannot surmise; they have not outlived their authors, nor is it probable that they were ever recorded; but judging from the discipline of the Khalsa we may be inclined to think favourably of them.”[18]
14. There are several independent observers who have noticed the strict code of warfare followed by the Sikhs throughout the centuries. Qazi Nur Muhammad notes of the Sikhs that ‘they do not rob a woman of her gold and ornaments, may she be a queen or a slave-girl. Adultery also does not exist among—.”[19]Griffin noted in his Rajas of the Punjab, “There are few stories in Sikh History of outrage to women and torture to men such as stain the pages of South Indian History with cruelty and blood.”[20]
15. Inspired by the Guru’s injunctions, the Sikh soldiers were always moved by the plight of women and recorded incidents depict them as travelling hundreds of miles, courting danger and fighting bloody battles to rescue women in distress. Baghel Singh once rode to Lohari with his army on such a mission. Lohari was within an arms length of Delhi where the Mughal king still ruled. He rescued the woman, punished her tormentors and had her rehabilitated with the consent of her clan. His entire army donated cash to give her a parting present because she had by the act of being rescued by them, become the ‘daughter of the entire panth.’
16. The most spectacular example of this chivalrous conduct at the mass level is the rescue of thousands of Maratha women being carried captive by Ahmed Shah Abdali after the Third Battle of Panipat in January 1761. The earliest historians who recorded it include Ram Sukh Rao the official historian of the ruling Ahluwalia family. It is mentioned by James Brown in his History of the Origin and Progress of the Sikhs, published in 1881.[21] After their rescue, they were escorted to their homes in Maharashtra and restored to their families in a soul stirring gesture depicting rare moral grandeur of monumental magnitude.
17. In the recent (1971) war against Pakistan for the liberation of Bangladesh, the Sikh soldiers came across women kept as sex slaves by Yahya Khan’s army. They were often found without clothes (a measure to deter escape?). It is recorded that the Sikh soldiers of the invading victorious army, took off their turbans in a befitting tribute to human dignity, to cover the naked women. The tradition launched by the gurshastra has come down to the present day.
18. Sikh conventions appear also to have contained a provision that other non-combatants besides women were to be considered inviolable. “On December 10, 1710, (the Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah 1707-12) issued a royal edict to all the faujdars (military commanders) of Shahjahanabad (Delhi) and its neighbourhood to put to the sword the worshippers of Nanak –the Sikhs- where ever found.” (Nanak-prastan ra har ja kih ba-aband, ba-qatl rasanad)[22] The Sikh reply to this order of general massacre of Sikhs is recorded by the royal news-writer who informed the Emperor on April 28, 1711, “that Banda Singh – -encamped at Kalanaur – had declared that he was in no way opposed to the Muslims and that they had the fullest liberty to recite their sermons and prayers – khutba-o-namaz. – -The result of this was, the report continued, that as many as five thousand Muslims had joined the Sikh army.”[23]
19. Sikhs appear to have been instructed by the Guru to have a measure of reverence for the places considered holy by any tradition. They meticulously followed the instructions, although the Afghans and the Mughals had often destroyed Sikh shrines during the period of their political ascendancy. The holiest Sikh shrine at Amritsar was pulled down twice and defiled many times more. Yet when the first great Sikh upheaval under Banda Bahadur took place in around 1710 CE the Sikhs destroyed no place of worship. The Sikh armies gathered at Fatehgarh Sahib, the place where the younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh had been bricked alive, for the final assault on Sirhind. They were within a few hundred yards of the mausoleum of Shaikh Ahmed Sirhandi who had been the implacable foe of the Sikhs. Ideology emanating with him was responsible for the execution of two Gurus, the persecution of four and the execution of the Guru’s sons.[24]Shaikh Ahmed called himself the ‘prophet of the second millennium’ and received homage as such. Many princes of Afghanistan lie buried at the graveyard attached to his shrine. The Sikhs never thought of destroying or even despoiling his grave or the graves of their sworn enemies whom they knew to be despoilers of their land. Sirhind was destroyed totally and the land on which it stood was ploughed in revenge for the execution of little princes, the sons of Guru Gobind Singh, aged seven and nine years. It was cosidered to have forfeited the right to exist. The Shaikh’s mausoleum stands fully intact even today.
20. It is also pretty clear that the destruction of common heritage of humankind, such as libraries, is not sanctioned by the Sikh war code. In 1834, the Sikh forces were poised to attack Peshawar. Ranjit Singh gave emphatic written instructions to the invading General Hari Singh Nalwa that the famous library of the Akhunzadas of Chamkani was to be meticulously saved from harm.[25] The position may be contrasted with that of the Romans the most civilised of the ancient world, who burnt the priceless manuscripts at Alexandria, or with that of the Medieval Muslims who destroyed the rich library at Constantinople in 1453 and with that of the modern Indian state that burnt the Sikh Reference Library at Amritsar in 1984.

Conclusion
Much has been written about the exploits of Sikh warriors. Historical accounts of battles and wars are abundant but there is woefully little research by way of discovering the war code which Sikhs followed. There are similarities in the conduct of Sikh soldiers throughout the centuries of warfare, that tell us that there existed a body of injunctions having the effect of law on the minds of soldiers who took their faith seriously. It is possible to say that it had spiritual discipline for its basis and was eventually derived from the Guru Granth. From Qazi Nur Muhammad to the press reporters chronicling the war for Bangladesh, a similarity of conduct on certain basic issues is noticed. It is challenging to trace the origin of instructions which are universally respected and have commanded spontaneous adherence in all ages.
The ultimate sanction behind exemplary conduct, expected of a soldier, was spiritual. A Sikh soldier was consciously playing the role of Akalpurakh in human affairs. For that he had to be imbued with the qualities which the gurbani reveals to be His attributes. A Sikh’s salvation depended upon implementing the Divine Will in the world. Its operative part dealt with removing human suffering by seeking to establish justice and by banishing oppression from human affairs. This is the meaning of the assertion that ‘he is to be considered a brave knight who fights for the downtrodden’ (deen). (Guru Granth, 1356). The very opening verse of the Guru Granth states that the Ultimate Reality is ‘fearless’ and is ‘without enmity.’ While a soldier expected himself to be attuned to these concepts in daily life, he knew that in adversity and in war, the only measure of his conduct was living up to them. That was especially important for his spiritual self esteem. It constituted salvation itself. Until the coming into existence of the Sikh states, the Sikh armies were totally voluntary forces. Even after that a significant part of the army remained voluntary and unpaid. That had something to do with the war code voluntarily observed as a part of the strict spiritual discipline.
Most of original Sikh literature and history books written by the Sikhs has been destroyed. It was the first target of all their proselytising enemies. The process was started by Lakhpat Rai a satrap of Shah Nawaz, the Mughal Governor of Lahore in mid eighteenth century. He is reputed to have filled up wells with books on Sikh theology and history. The latest example of such wanton destruction was in 1984 when the invading Indian armies set fire to the Sikh Reference Library and burnt up thousands of invaluable manuscripts, some dating back to the early seventeenth century. It is noteworthy that the library in the Darbar Sahib complex was burnt deliberately after the conflict with the militant defenders had come to a close with the death of all of them on June 6, 1984.
Any study of the Sikh War Code will be incomplete without an in depth study of the Guru’s concept of ‘open diplomacy.’ Of Helvetians, Julius Caesar observed, “The tradition in which they had been schooled by their forebears was to fight like men and not to rely on cunning or stratagem.”[26] The same appears to have been true of the Sikhs and squares with the concept of ‘open diplomacy’ strictly enjoined upon the Khalsa by the Guru. The British were perceived to be morally degraded deceiving strategists. Several accounts of the Anglo-Sikh wars depict that the ordinary Sikh soldier was full of contempt for their unethical behaviour. Earlier Ranjit Singh had told reverend Wolff, a German missionary, who said he had brought civilising tidings to the Punjab, ‘why don’t you go and preach in Calcutta? The Governor General and his cohorts are the only uncivilised people in India.’
Engaging in warfare is not the only activity the Khalsa is created for. The war without is to take place as a last resort measure. It is the war within that is to occupy a person most of his life. It is as unrelenting as the physical warfare. The five vices, desire, anger, greed, attachment and arrogance are to be completely subdued. It is a total war – to the very finish. Human birth is a rare opportunity. (manas janam dulambh hai hoe na baram bar). It cannot be wasted (is pauri te jo nar chookai aai jai dukh paida). Just, like the battle without, there is a code of conduct for the battle within. There is also the discipline which is basically symbolised by the five symbols of faith bestowed upon the Khalsa by the compassionate Guru. With such equipment, the Khalsa must contend within and renew themselves like the bird of paradise with the help of the Guru’s transforming touch. (pasu prethon dev kare poorai satgut ki vadiai). It is this that the Rehatnamas advocate while prescribing ‘he alone is Khalsa who mounts a charger (in this case the human body) and is ever engaged in warfare.’ (Khalsa sou jo charhe turang, Khalsa sou jo kare nit jang). At that plane, the only other worthwhile activity recommended to a seeker is sewa or selfless service to humankind in its myriad forms.




http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=8535347248251563522#_ednref1Notes
[1] Bhai Mani Singh, Sikhan di Bhagatmala, (circa 1730 CE) Khalsa Samachar, Amritsar, 1955, 136.
[2] Bhagatmala, 67
[3] Bhagatmala, 84.
[4] See for instance, Randhir Singh, Prem Sumarg Granth, (circa 1730 CE) New Book Company, Jalandhar, 1965, 90.
[5] Karam Singh Historian di Itihasik Khoj, Hira Singh Darad (ed.), Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar, 1964, 97-99, 455-508.
[6] See, Notes on Indian History, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow, Undated, 144.
[7] A Journey from Bengal to England, (First Published 1808) Reprint, Languages Department Punjab, 1970, 321
[8] See Prachin Panth Parkash, Sikh Itihas Research Board, Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Sri Amritsar, 1984, 501.
[9] Bhangu, 164.
[10] Shamsher Singh Ashok, Veer Nayak Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa, Punjabi University, Patiala, 1984, p.76.
[11] Ganda Singh, (quoting Ibrat Namah, 274-275 in) Ahmed Shah Durrani, Asia Publishing House, Bombay, 1959.290. and Hari Ram Gupta, 198.
[12] Ganda Singh, 295.In the same work, Ganda Singh also quotes Abdali as writing to Amir Naseer Khan his Bloach ally to goad him into holy war against the Sikhs, “how can you think of going to Mecca while this depraved sect is wreaking havoc? Jihad on these idolators -- is more meritorious than Hajj. --- come so that we may destroy this faithless sect and enslave their women and children --- fatwa of the Ulema has already been issued –.” Ahmed Shah Durrani, p. 296.
[13] Rehatnama Bhai Nandlal, for instance, has the instructions: 1) A Sikh, “should never run away from the battlefield and steadfastly stick to his Dharma.” 2) He should never forsake the discipline and should always face the enemy in the battlefield and should never turn his back.” Surinder Singh Kohli, Sikh Ethics, Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, 1975, 71 and 72.
[14] “—Yet, although assailed on either side by squadrons of horse and battalions of foot, no Sikh offered to submit, and no disciple of Gobind asked for quarter. They everywhere showed a front to their victors, and stalked slowly and sullenly away, while many rushed singly forth to meet assured death by contending with a multitude. The victors looked with stolid wonderment upon the indomitable courage of the vanquished, --.” Joseph Davy Cunningham, A History of the Sikhs, (1849), S. Chand & Co.,Delhi, 1966, 284-285.

[15] Notes on Indian History, 144.
[16] History of The Sikhs, 277, 276.
[17] Bhangu, 166.
[18] See Dewan Amarnath, Memoirs of the Reign of Ranjit Singh, reproduced in Rare Documents on Sikhs and their rule in the Punjab, (Ed. H. S. Bhatia), Deep & Deep Publications, New Delhi, 1981, p.151.
[19] Hari Ram Gupta, History of the Sikhs, vol. II, (4th edition), Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt. Ltd. New Delhi, 1992, 266.
[20] Quoted by Gupta, 271.
[21] See, Ganda Singh, Ahmed Shah Durrani- Father of Modern Afghanistan, Asia Publishing House, Bombay, 1959, p. 264; see also, Hari Ram Gupta, History of the Sikhs Vol.II, Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt Ltd, 1992, 168.
[22] Ganda Singh (Ed.), The Punjab Past and Present October 1984, Punjabi University, Patiala, 6.
[23] Ganda Singh, “Sirhind in the eighteenth century”, in Sirhind Through the Ages, Fauja Singh (ed.), Punjabi University, Patiala, September 1972, 104-105.
[24] Kapur Singh, Sachi Sakhi, Navyug Publishers, Delhi, 1979, 30-37. See also S. M. Ikram and S. A. Rashid’s History of Muslim Civilisation in India & Pakistan, quoted in Fauja Singh’s, Sirhind Through the Ages, 60. “The rhetoric and appeal of Shaikh Ahmed’s letters kindled religious fervour and resulted in a religious revival – which completely altered the history of the sub-continent”.
[25] Prem Singh Hoti, Khalsa Raj de Usraiyee, (3rd ed.) Lahore Book Shop, Lahore, 1942, 36.
[26] Gallic Wars And Other Writings, Random House Inc., New York, 1957, 8.
 

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Gyani ji

This article should be its own thread as well as here. I think that i will start one. No cares about redundancy in this case. Whenever I feel I am losing my enthusiasm for forum administration, something like this shores me up and energizes. Thanks.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Ishna Ji,
There is no question of any "grief" or anything like that.
And no question of questioning etc...
Asa Ki vaar tells us..SWAAL JWAAB DOVEHN Kareh ?? muddhoh khutthhah jayeh...
A wise perosn NEVER questions and then self answers/provides the Answers !!!
A Sikh NEVER questions HIS GURU ( Its NOT the same as not asking "questions" )
Once a SIKH has accepted the Moral and Spiritual AUTHORITY of the GURU KHALSA PANTH ordianed under the AGEIS of the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI via the PANJ and taken Khandey Batteh Dee PAHUL...he has no more "authority" to question what the PANJ as GURU ordain for him/her. IF he/she still wants her "freedom" ( to cut his/her hair..drink a peg here and then..shave his/her eyebrows armpits..etc etc or read this bani and NOT that bani etc etc) then She/HE has no buisness attending a PAHUL SESSION because thats entirely 100% VOLUNTARY. We cannot have our cake and eat it too. So one can have an anonymous/or public POLL and have 10 million "sikhs" saying..I want this changed..I dont like that..I wish this wasnt here..etc etc..it doesnt change anything one IOTA...UNTIL the GURU KHALSA PANTH decides vis a vis the GURU GRANTH GURBANI what is what. The 1935 SRM wasnt made by me or you..and the next changes wont be done by Me or you either.

2. When i said "discretion"..i meant some "amrtidharees" have gone around telling ..OH I dont like Chaupaii..so I dont read it...its just as bad as saying..OH I swore an Oath to become an American Citizen..But you know what..i despise the Charter of Rights..I wish it were all Shariah law in USA. BOTH actions were VOLUNTARY. if the person loves Shariah law he should stay in Iran..and If an amritdharee doesnt like chaupaii he should stay a Sikh and not go for Pahul...UNTIL..the American Congress passes the Shariah laws..or until the Guru Khalsa Panth bans Chaupaii..BOTH should keep quiet and keep their "discretion" to themsleves.
Hope this clarifies.
Regards
 
Aug 7, 2006
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Giani ji wrote
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB...chose the Banis Himself. Thats is why you will find Kabir bnai almost as huge a granth as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..left OUTSIDE the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Guru nanak ji and Guru Arjun Ji sahib. Those Banis (Kabir panthi Granth) DO NOT go by the "parametres" of Guru Ji.
Same goes for baba farid Jis Sloks ( the ones in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are NOT his complete compositions)...and all the other Bhagats etc also wrote alot more which Guru nanak ji obviously didnt include in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Does it means that above-mentioned saints or bhagats wrote bani of two types. One within the parameters of Guru ji and other outside those parameters ? Are we trying to say that there were double standards in their thinking or writings ?
To prove one's own quote, is it correct to portrait the contributor of SGGS ji of duality ( double standards ) in their writings ?
When DG bani does not fits into parameters of SGGS ji, scholors immidiatly say that this bani is not written by Dasam pita ji. Now if some of the bani of these bhagatsis not upto set parameters, that also mat not be their origanal bani, that may also be altered by vested interests.
Are we able enough to blame those great contributors og SGGS ji of double standards in spirituals idiology ?

Roopsidhu


 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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SSA
Giani ji wrote
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB...chose the Banis Himself. Thats is why you will find Kabir bnai almost as huge a granth as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..left OUTSIDE the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Guru nanak ji and Guru Arjun Ji sahib. Those Banis (Kabir panthi Granth) DO NOT go by the "parametres" of Guru Ji.
Same goes for baba farid Jis Sloks ( the ones in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are NOT his complete compositions)...and all the other Bhagats etc also wrote alot more which Guru nanak ji obviously didnt include in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Does it means that above-mentioned saints or bhagats wrote bani of two types. One within the parameters of Guru ji and other outside those parameters ? Are we trying to say that there were double standards in their thinking or writings ?
To prove one's own quote, is it correct to portrait the contributor of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji of duality ( double standards ) in their writings ?
When DG bani does not fits into parameters of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji, scholors immidiatly say that this bani is not written by Dasam pita ji. Now if some of the bani of these bhagatsis not upto set parameters, that also mat not be their origanal bani, that may also be altered by vested interests.
Are we able enough to blame those great contributors og Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji of double standards in spirituals idiology ?

Roopsidhu


Roop sidhu ji,

MY GURU (sarab kala samrath) is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains whatever GURU NANAK JI-GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji chose to include. IF Guru nanak ji choses a particular shabd and declares it suitable for inlcusion in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Guru Arjun ji titles it: Raag Asa Bani Bhagat KABIR JI...i KNOW its AUTHENTIC, ITS compeltely in line with Gurbani, its SIGNED FOR. I have absolutley NO DOUBTS in my mind.

Whatever is OUTSIDE the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....who vouches for me that its "authentic" Bhagat kabir jis bani ?? NOBODY. Who says that bani is completley in line with what my GURU declares ? NOBODY. Who "SIGNED" on the Bottom Line that YEs this is Bhagat kabir Ji ? NOBODY. Same goes for so called Bhagat ravidass Granth which contains banis of Bhagat ravidass Ji that soem vested interests are trying to FOIST on to ravidassis - for ME the One and ONLY AUTHENTIV+C Bhagat ravidass Bani is the one listed under Bani Bhagat ravidass Ji Ki in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji . Rest is for everyone else BUT NOT FOR SIKHS who beleive in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Sole GURU.

The day anyone shows bani of Guru gobind Singh ji, Guru hargobind Ji, Guru har rai ji and even Guru harkishan Ji..is present in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..I will say..YES its GURBANI. Until that day comes its all Conjecture..imagination..humans claiming this and that...NOT MY "GURU" at all. humans i can and will question..NOT the GURU. Period. There is NO GURBANI left outside the SGGS because the last Editor/Compiler and who gave the Final nod to gurgadee to SGGS was none other than Guru gobind Singh ji Himself the Last human Guru.GGS certainly did the Final Editing/Compiling/Binding and Gurgadee at Nanded in 1708. GGS also gave orsers for the Copying of at least four otehr copies of this Damdami Bir to Bhai Shaheed Baba deep Singh ji.

So i have not the foggiest idea what "duality" you are talking about ?? There is absolutely NO DUALITY in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. its ONE.I do not need aNy "ability" to check/doubt/aNy contributor to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..simply because MY GURU Ji has already donE that task for me...and signed the Bottom line..SHUDH KEECHEY/SHUDDH. CERTIFIED.

2. Secondly IF someone were able to produce a "bani by bhagat kabir Ji that has Signature of Guru nanak ji or Guru Arjun ji certifying: This Bani is FAKE/NOT as per my parametres...hence it is REJECTED for inclusion in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji." Signed: Guru Arjun. Then I may need to answer your question you posed in your final line. Until then I am satisfied with what My GURU has done....because we have the SIGNED ACCEPTED VERSION.
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

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Gyaniji,

you should leave your typos in, I know when I see typos in your post, that you are writing so quickly and passionately that you generate typos, it makes your posts very personal and they stand out with much conviction!

I think you have put it very simply, either be amritdhari, or be a sikh, if you struggle with the concept of amritdhari, carry on being a good sikh until there is no struggle and everything just falls into place, you make it sound so simple, and it is simple, if you want to be amritdhari, just follow the hukam
 
Aug 7, 2006
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SSA Giani ji,
My point was that how did we reach to a conclusion that out of Kabir's bani some of it was with the parameters of SGGS and some of it was not.
Are we trying to say that Kabir ji's bani has two different idiologies, one within the parametrs of SGGS ji and rest against it.? Is it not possible that the Kabir ji's bani which is not within the parametrs of SGGS ji is not actually written by Kabir ji and has just been the act of some vested interests?
Roopsidhu
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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SSA Giani ji,
My point was that how did we reach to a conclusion that out of Kabir's bani some of it was with the parameters of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and some of it was not.
Are we trying to say that Kabir ji's bani has two different idiologies, one within the parametrs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji and rest against it.? Is it not possible that the Kabir ji's bani which is not within the parametrs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji is not actually written by Kabir ji and has just been the act of some vested interests?
Roopsidhu
Roop Ji,
here we enter into the world of conjecture..double guessing.

1. Some say that Bhagats like Kabir Ji evolved slowly towards Gurmatt...that they were NOT "straight form the horses mouth" types who came born Satguru as Sikhs beleive Guru nanak ji to be "Born GURU". As such earlier they could ahve written poems which didnt quite qualify within the parametres of Gurbani/SGGS.

2. It could be what you say..fake bani in name of Bhagats like Kabir Ji ravidass Ji...even the Vaars of Bhai gurdass are said to be contaminated/ adulterated...and ONLY SGGS has coem to us compeltely fortified/unadulterated within the confines of Mundawnni Mh 5 as Final mohr. mainly due to the truly fantastic editing/compiling doen by guru Arjun Ji in counting and double checking totals sub totals final tallies and compelte shudh/ at the end. No adulteration/additions/subtractions possible without being discovered.

3. So we REJECT all that is outside the authenticated certified SGGS. period. Firstly Guur nanak ji collected Gurbani in his KITAB. Then Guru Arjun ji compiled all into the POTHI SAHIB -AAD GRANTH Now at Kartarpur as kartarpuri bir sahib. Then Guru Gobind Singh ji recertified, added gurbani of Guru teg Bahadur Ji, recompiled and resealed the AAD GRANTH by PLACING BACK the MUNDAWNNI MH 5 at the END. This "MUNDAWNNI" is a TITLE...not a "word" whcih does occur twice in other places in SGGS. many try and confuse by saying..."mundawwni" also comes ina Shabad by Guru Amardass Ji at a page around 700 or so...SO SHOULD WE then STOP reading THERE simply becasue mundawwnni is used ?? This is a ploy that cna only fool the simplistic people..not all sikhs. Mundawwnni Mh 5 as a TITLE of a SHABAD..is different form the word mundawwnni in a tuk occuring in a shabad. ( Hes ROYAL Highness, the Queen...is different from... On my 21st Birthday I was treated to a a right royal banquet by my classmates. One is a Title..the other is a word...i cant claim I am now Royal blood because i was treated toa royal banquet by my friends..ha ha).
SGGS is compiled in a certain FIXED methodlogy..and among the GURUS..the final Grbani is always Guru Teg bahadur Ji...NO Bani by MH 10......and Finally GGS didnt disturb the Mundawwnni Mh 5 from its ORIGINAL Place means its the signalling of the end of SGGS. Any thing that comes after is unauthorised.* Raagmala and 17 other banis appear in some birs....incluidng Guru birth dates, recipe to make INK etc etc.. This made the SGGS alter proof as far as humanly possible. I would say...unauthorised "delivery boys" failing to open the LOCK..had no choice but to leave their "goods" outside the door on the doorstep !!

Apologies for the digression....had to explain a bit due to some readers not knowing why the SGGs si unalterable/unadulterable.
 

Ambarsaria

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SSA Giani ji,
My point was that how did we reach to a conclusion that out of Kabir's bani
For Sikhs the context of Bani is what is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or as identified additionally for Amritdhari Sikhs per SRM. Rest is not Bani even if written by same people, it is their other writings.

some of it was with the parameters of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and some of it was not.
Are we trying to say that Kabir ji's bani (see comment above) has two different idiologies, one within the parametrs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji and rest against it.? Is it not possible that the Kabir ji's bani (see comment above) which is not within the parametrs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji is not actually written by Kabir ji and has just been the act of some vested interests?
Roopsidhu
roopsidhu ji I believe there is an embedded answer in your post as I flagged above.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ishna

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Harry bhaji, I don't think it's that simple. It appears that to be amritdhari you have you make a compromise: agree to recite DAILY passages which do not come from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I'm still not sure how a Sikh can justify in his/her mind how agreeing to do that, when it goes against their better judgement, is fulfilling the Sikh ideal in the first place? Is it not better to be a good Sikh than a compromised amritdhari?

I feel like Ben from the "What is Truth" thread!
 

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