Exactly!!
This started under Thatcher, and although Labour tried, they coudn't do anything about this.
These are Thatchers Grandchildren Looting!!
UK Britain's Riots: A Society In Denial Of The Burning Issues
Exactly!!
This started under Thatcher, and although Labour tried, they coudn't do anything about this.
These are Thatchers Grandchildren Looting!!
Who got the country into this economic rut? Labour. Who aggravavted race relations by making silly rules apparently in support of minorities? Labour. I don't think it is fair to blame politics in this case. The rioters who have been interviewed have demonstrated clearly they know nothing about politics. A lot of the places affected (including where I live) gang culture is prevalent. The gangs have nothing to do with politics. These riots are a lot more complex and mindless than that. There are no scapegoats.
Lee
SPNer
As I say Randip ji,
Yes of course we have problems, but then who doesn't, can you point to a perfect goverment or a perfect land, a perfect peoples? We are all human and subject to the ravages of the 5 thieves.
All of these problems though have been with us since I can remember and probably before I was born, yet I did not go a looting growing up in Thatchers Britian, nor did my peers. Yes we had the Brixton uprising, and yes soem looting took place here. But then just as now the looters where oppertunist thieves and had nothing to do with any issues for which civil disobediance is a legitimate process.
The real question then must be what has changed now, that a small minority of our youth feel that they can do this without fear and with impunity?
So yes we must attempt to sort the problems we have but we must also make sure that criminals are caught and treated with.
Lee
SPNer
Findinmyway ji,
Ohh yes we can of course blame Thatcher. She did a lot of harm to this country and now almost 30 years later we are still reaping the rewards of her goverment.
Privatistion of what should have remained goverment responsibilty. Specifily our engery and public transport has meant that greedy corperrations have been able to up their prices, in both of the realms way above the rate of inflation, and in a virtual monoply so that there is literaly nothing that we the people can do about it.
Yes Labour are also to blame for not using their time in power to undo this damage.
You are right though these lootings are not to do with politics.
Tough justice in London courts.
Westminster Magistrates' Court has been working round the clock to help deal with the 922 arrested and 401 charged over the London riots. Here's a snapshot of proceedings.
Saffron Armstrong tried to explain that he had gone into a looted computer store because he was inquisitive - and a freelance journalist.
This drew sniggers from the press bench, but not from district judge Elizabeth Roscoe, who told him he faced a prison sentence.
The 22-year-old pleaded guilty to burglary after being arrested in a PC World store in Colliers Wood, south London, the day after it was hit by looters.
The accounting student from Mitcham, who also worked for Marks and Spencer, was remorseful and admitted his intentions had "not been for the best".
Nails chewed
It was a pattern which was repeated throughout the morning as defendants including students, an estate agent and an aspiring ballerina were brought up from the cells.
Two had handed themselves into police - one after she saw her picture in a national newspaper.
The 17-year-old girl, whose lawyer said wanted to be a dancer, was accused of stealing two televisions from the Richer Sounds store in Croydon on Monday.
She anxiously chewed her nails as the judge made arrangements for her to appear at a youth court next week.
Another woman, a graduate and aspiring social worker, also handed herself into police the day after stealing a £300 television from a Comet store in Enfield.
Natasha Reid, 24, from Edmonton, had been on her way to McDonald's when she saw the store had been broken into.
Her lawyer said she had gone to the police as she could not sleep through guilt.
Tough sentences
On Tuesday, Prime Minister David Cameron said anyone convicted of violent disorder would go to prison.
And in a brisk, efficient manner, the district judge in court five seemed to be ensuring that this happened.
In each case, she would listen carefully as the defendants' solicitors made arguments for community sentences or for them to be granted bail.
Then she would say the circumstances rendered their offences too serious, before referring their cases to the crown court, and its tougher sentencing powers.
The case of Charlie Heron, 18, epitomised the approach.
The unemployed cannabis user from Roehampton admitted buying £248 of sports clothes from a "crack head" for £50 - items which had been looted from JD Sports in Clapham Junction the previous night.
The offence, which would ordinarily result in a fine or conditional discharge, saw him remanded in custody and sent to crown court for a probable prison sentence.
"At this time, anyone who buys stolen goods of this nature, from well-publicised rioting and stealing from shops is very much in the same position as the person who stole the goods," Judge Roscoe told him.
'Looking for a thrill'
Almost 100 people appeared at Westminster overnight, with prosecutors working 17:00 to 09:00 shifts.
About 30 more people charged with offences linked to the rioting were to appear before the court before the end of Thursday.
Despite appearing stressful for the lawyers, who were often without their complete paperwork, proceedings appeared to be passing smoothly.
Between riot cases there was time for some which are dealt with on a more typical day in a magistrates' court - a man losing his licence for drink driving, and a woman denying pulling a barmaid's hair.
The court was packed with press, including a contingent from abroad - between cases British journalists were busy explaining the vagaries of the justice system to their French counterparts.
Last up before lunch was James Haung, 19, arrested on Tuesday night in Camberwell wearing a balaclava and gardening gloves.
He denied a charge of going equipped to steal, having told police he was "just looking for a thrill".
He too, was remanded in custody, to appear at crown court at a later date.
Of the eight cases heard during the morning - others involved charges of affray following a scuffle with police in Lambeth and someone found carrying a knife in Hackney - none were released on bail, and all were sent to the crown court for sentencing.
Outside, police officers guarding the court, where prison vans lined the streets, were keen to hear of the punishments being meted out to the people arrested in the preceding days.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14495104
Actually the defecit was going down last year under Labourr and growth was up. This year the reverse is true, and if you think the global banking crisis was Labours fault, you have been reading too much of the Daily Mail.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data
Err if you call having things like the Stephen Laerence Inquiry ionto Institutional racism "silly" I think you need to re-evaluate which form of Sikh philosophy you are following.
I work with people in the lowest echelons of Society, and it is ALL about the Government. Highest Youth unemployement in the History in the UK. The Gang culture thing is a smoke screen. Watch the right wing media in the UK pull out all the scapegoats and smokescreens in the next few days.
America has the Tea Party we have the Tories . No difference. Both loonies out of touch.
Milliband summed it up nicely for me. "The Take what you can culture"
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-must-tackle-the-take-what-you-can-culture.do
We must tackle the take-what-you-can culture
11 Aug 2011
Every Londoner will have a story this week that particularly touches them. Two stand out for me: hearing that the area where I went to school around Haverstock Comprehensive in Chalk Farm was caught up in some of the violence; and visiting Peckham with Harriet Harman, where we saw the distress and pain etched in the faces of the law-abiding majority of people.
Londoners across every borough, every age group, every class, every ethnicity have been appalled by what we have seen over the past week. No area in our capital has felt beyond the reach of the trouble, and no citizen has felt immune or truly safe.
This violence and vandalism is an affront to the values of London that we all believe in: above all, the liberty of the individual which has been at the heart of the capital's history. When shops are being looted, when people are unable to go about their daily business without fear then there can be no liberty, no sense of freedom.
That is why today, and in the coming days, there remains one overriding priority for the Government and the police: the maintenance of public order and a return to normality on the streets of London. The security of the city's citizens and their ability to go about their lives free from fear is the paramount concern.
The police should have the resources to do what it takes to bring calm to the streets of Britain's towns and cities.Police on the streets have made our streets safer.
The Prime Minister must understand the concern there is about the reduction in police numbers that is taking place. He must undertake to review the decisions made about police numbers and budgets.
The full force of the law should be brought to bear on all those who have committed criminal acts and there must be swift action to help those who have lost their homes and livelihoods rebuild.
For now, and thanks to the heroic efforts of policemen and policewomen across this capital, order has been restored. But let us be clear: it is not yet a return to normality if businesses are still shutting early and people are rushing home in case things start up again. It will take many more days of order to get closer to something approaching how things were before.
As I have talked to people over the past few days, what has become clear is that no two disturbances were quite the same, but all of the violence and vandalism shares one common truth: there is no excuse for it. No ifs, no buts, no justification. Indeed, no Londoner I have met has offered a defence of the criminal activity we have seen. It was mindless, it has harmed some of the most vulnerable people and businesses in our capital, and as so many people have told me, it sets back the cause of investment and prosperity.
As it debates these issues today the House of Commons must unite to send a clear and unequivocal message that I believe the vast majority of Londoners want us to send. We must also start to consider the task of the how to prevent these events happening again.
These were individual criminal acts. But the question we have to ask is why we have people in our society who are willing to go out and commit these acts? How do we have people among us who think it is OK to go and harm and despoil their communities in this way? Just as excusing criminality on the basis of social factors is quite wrong, we would be failing Londoners if we did not seek to understand and remedy the deeper reasons for it.
All politicians should approach this task with due humility. Knee-jerk conclusions from Left or Right, simplistic answers, simply blaming one government or another, just won't do. The process must be methodical and it must hear the voices of the law-abiding majority in the communities affected.
For me, the solutions must start with the values we seek to uphold as a society and, in particular, the way we generate a sense of responsibility to each other - the basic foundation of our ability to live together in harmony.
Out of the darkness of the past few days we have seen a responsible, compassionate majority - appalled and fearful but coming together to stand up for their communities, many now joining in the clean-up, many at a loss to explain what they have seen on their streets and TVs.
Yet it is not enough to just berate "an irresponsible few".
A few weeks ago I talked about the need to change a culture of irresponsibility in our society from top to bottom - from the boardroom to the benefits office. In the wake of phone-hacking scandal, the banking crisis and MPs' expenses, that seemed essential.
No two instances of irresponsibility are the same but after the riots it is even more important to change that culture. The wanton greed that we have seen in the looting of the past few days, the take-what-you-can culture, must be tackled.
Successful societies are built on an ethic of compassion, solidarity, and looking after each other. That ethic must triumph - from our schools, to the actions of the most powerful, to what we demand of parents. The responsibility government shows to the vast majority of our decent law-abiding young people and their mums and dads, who want their kids to do better than them, is what I call the promise of Britain.
We must all bear our share of responsibility for fixing this: government, and all of us citizens.
Actually the defecit was going down last year under Labourr and growth was up. This year the reverse is true, and if you think the global banking crisis was Labours fault, you have been reading too much of the Daily Mail.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data
Err if you call having things like the Stephen Laerence Inquiry ionto Institutional racism "silly" I think you need to re-evaluate which form of Sikh philosophy you are following.
I work with people in the lowest echelons of Society, and it is ALL about the Government. Highest Youth unemployement in the History in the UK. The Gang culture thing is a smoke screen. Watch the right wing media in the UK pull out all the scapegoats and smokescreens in the next few days.
America has the Tea Party we have the Tories . No difference. Both loonies out of touch.
Both parties have made major mistakes, you cannot blame only one for the state of the economy. I do not read the daily mail at all and I am very vocal against the EDL. The Guardian is a left wing paper, the Times is a conservative paper. I like to read both to get a more well rounded view of the news.
Firstly, the riots were different in each place. Going from what I saw in my area, it was more gang related than anything else and we DO have a lot of gang problems here. One of my friends has previously been shot for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course I accept that may not be the case in all places and that is the thing that has made the riots so hard to understand-the range of people involved as can be seen in Spnadmin ji's post above.
Secondly, I refuse to get into a debate about politics with you. Frankly, I think its irresponsible to discuss politics with relation to the riots as then you are trying to justify and excuse what happened and that is WRONG. There should be some sense of responsibility and in the recent violence people forgot or didn't feel this. It has to be made clear that is not acceptable behaviour. Yesterday in parliament all the parties agreed on this. Even they stood united and didn't play the blame game.
Read again the article you posted above
I've read the article and the final line:
please don't accuse me of justifying anything. You know nothing about me or my background. You don't know where I work or with who, but what I can tell you is I work with authorities including the Police who have been warning about this for a year.
The Big Society project launched by Cameron is a classic Tory policy to abdicate the state from it's responsibilities to citizens.
..that link to the Guardian just links ONS statistiocs, nothing else, and I also read the Times, Daily Mail, and Independent. Politics aside, and looking at the economic state of this economy I suggest you read David Blanchflowers blogs who predicted the economics mess Osbornes policies have, and how if we followed the Darling Plan we would have much higher growth.
Also Nick Clegg predicted last year there would be riots if the Tories got in:
Nick Clegg "warns" of riots if Tories are elected (11Apr10) - YouTube
We have had recessions and hard times before but it has not resulted in such lawlessness. I personally think a much bigger problem is the lack of discipline, crumbling family structures and loss of sense of community. Parents are afraid of kids, teachers are afraid of kids, police are afraid of kids as so many are armed, ASBO's are worn with pride. When a millionaire's daughter is involved and when families are looting together, then you know its not JUST the money or the economy that is the problem.
Why you getting defensive against me? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everyone has to be a hardcore Labour supporter. Most of the cuts haven't even been implemented yet. I feel it is counterproductive to say it is the fault of this government or that government, when we should be working on going forward. This represents my personal opinion, which I am entitled to without being told I am following the wrong brand of Sikh philosophy and without having comments attributed to me which I have never made on a subject that is completely unrelated (Stephen Lawrence enquiry). I did not accuse you personally of justifying the violence but I said the viewpoint that only politics is to blame is a way of justifying the violence as it gives the rioters an excuse. I am sorry if that did not come across properly but I strongly feel there is no excuse for the violence and the looting. There are reasons but no excuses, the rioters have to face up to what they have done without being able to say the government let me down so thats why I did it or other such justifications. There is no justification for their actions and most of the rioters interviewed by the media are not even saying this. The family run furniture makers who survived the Blitz of WW2 but got burnt to the ground in riots this week, what have they got to do with the tories or cuts?? We have so much provided for us by the state. I think everyone should live abroad for some time to learn to appreciate what we have as all I hear since I have come back is complaining.
Question Time on BBC1 last night presented some interesting perspectives and people from all backgrounds were there. Blaming government alone is far too simplistic. If police predicted it why did they not do more to prevent it? See, there's no end to the blame game........
Why you getting defensive against me? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everyone has to be a hardcore Labour supporter. Most of the cuts haven't even been implemented yet. I feel it is counterproductive to say it is the fault of this government or that government, when we should be working on going forward. This represents my personal opinion, which I am entitled to without being told I am following the wrong brand of Sikh philosophy and without having comments attributed to me which I have never made on a subject that is completely unrelated (Stephen Lawrence enquiry). I did not accuse you personally of justifying the violence but I said the viewpoint that only politics is to blame is a way of justifying the violence as it gives the rioters an excuse. I am sorry if that did not come across properly but I strongly feel there is no excuse for the violence and the looting. There are reasons but no excuses, the rioters have to face up to what they have done without being able to say the government let me down so thats why I did it or other such justifications. There is no justification for their actions and most of the rioters interviewed by the media are not even saying this. The family run furniture makers who survived the Blitz of WW2 but got burnt to the ground in riots this week, what have they got to do with the tories or cuts?? We have so much provided for us by the state. I think everyone should live abroad for some time to learn to appreciate what we have as all I hear since I have come back is complaining.
Question Time on BBC1 last night presented some interesting perspectives and people from all backgrounds were there. Blaming government alone is far too simplistic. If police predicted it why did they not do more to prevent it? See, there's no end to the blame game........
Actually we have:
the 1980's and early 90's we had riots, vandalism, looting, in Tottenham, Brixtor, Southall, Birmingham, Liverpool, Bristol etc etc. Guess which party were in power then?
The Tories!!
The Millionaires person is one person, but there is a wider malaise, which has been started off during thet Thatcher era.
Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women,"
Those looters also believe there is no such this as society. Only individuals. We are seeing the seeds that Thatcher sowed coming back to bite us.
As a Sikh such a statement for me is in direct conflict with Nanakian philosophy which asks for "Sarbatt dha Bhalla".
I'm not getting defensive, only pointing out to you not to make baseless accusations, and being a Labour supporter or not has nothing to do with it. Nick Clegg in the above video pointed out there maybe riots and he is a Lib-Dem.
..but you did say also state "Who aggravavted race relations by making silly rules apparently in support of minorities? “. I find this kind of statement usually from Daily Mail readers who think that having equality laws is a bad thing. Those laws have not aggravated race relations, it’s your average white middle class male who feels aggravated, because he is being knocked off his perch.
…also you said you didn’t want to talk Politics, get you start lambasting about the Labour Party and how they got us into this rut? This is utter drivel. Anyone with any knowledge in economics knows we had:
1) It was triggered by the American Sub primes
2) Which in turn had a knock on our banks which invested in them
3) This meant we bailed them out through tax payers money
4) This meant a sharp increase in the deficit which was manageable due to good growth up until 2007.
http://falseeconomy.org.uk/cure/myths
What I suggest is do not make statements you cannot back up.
You keep going on about the looting and violence, but what was the cause?
Like Cameron and say we have a “sick” society. I mean what a completely {censored}ic statement, of a man totally out of touch with reality. Bankers take what they want, Politicians take what they want, Looters are just following the example.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/
…and yes we can trace all this back to Thatcher, and yes shame on Labour for not reversing it (although they tried).
…and you are trying to tell me that more of the same Thatcherite dogma in the form of “Call me Dave” Cameron will help?
No sorry!!
As Sikhs, each and every one of us has a responsibility to Society. There are not only individual bigger than Society!!! There is the Khalsa. Guru Granth and Guru Paanth!!....even Guru Gobind Singh bowed down to his followers....and as you find out more and more about Sikhi you will find out it is one of the most Left Wing ideologies there is. Toynbee described it “religious socialism”. Gurmit Singh “Guru Nanak A True Socialist”….the list goes on.
There is no place for Right wing ideology in Sikhi!!
Talking to the Police, quite frankly due to the attack on their pension, conditions etc, the ones I speak to are thoroughly demoralised. Surely it could not have escaped your attention how lack lustre their response was?
They are human too, and the one’s I speak to seem to be saying, if the Government thinks we are lazy and we are not doing our job properly then why bother. Morale in the Police is at an all time low, and if this enquiry that Milliband sets up goes into that, I am sure it will pick that up. This is all linked to the cuts!!
The Government knows they do not have to cut the deficit by one Parliament, so why are they still pushing for this? Ask yourself why? Why didn’t Wales and Scotland have riots? Better Government possibly? The buck stops with the Government, sorry!!
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I never thought of ideology before, but I have to concede that sikhism in its purest cannot be anything other than left wing.
I will be honest, my wife is die hard labour, she would rather cut her hands off than vote tory, I think its a welsh thing, and she gets quite wild eyed when you mention thatcher, but I think thats a nurse thing, me? uhmm well Ive always voted tory, and I thought thatcher was the one for me, but then at that time, I was in business, and most sikhs I knew voted conservative. I recall a group of us out one evening, and the only sikh there, a manual worker, was saying how wonderful labour was, to a stony silence, til one mercedes driving sikh commented that only a labourer would think labour were great. I remember feeling hugely uncomfortable, but I did not say anything, I just thought all sikhs were tories!
Randipji, would you say true sikhi is left wing, as I cannot seem to reconcile Guru Gobind Singhji completely into this, I would certainly agree that Nanakian philosophy is left wing.
Findingmywayji, I personally do not think that politics has anything to do with this, I think it is youth mentality, and a desire to be part of whatever is 'in' at the moment, peer pressure, and a need to look cool
I will be honest, my wife is die hard labour, she would rather cut her hands off than vote tory, I think its a welsh thing, and she gets quite wild eyed when you mention thatcher, but I think thats a nurse thing, me? uhmm well Ive always voted tory, and I thought thatcher was the one for me, but then at that time, I was in business, and most sikhs I knew voted conservative. I recall a group of us out one evening, and the only sikh there, a manual worker, was saying how wonderful labour was, to a stony silence, til one mercedes driving sikh commented that only a labourer would think labour were great. I remember feeling hugely uncomfortable, but I did not say anything, I just thought all sikhs were tories!
Randipji, would you say true sikhi is left wing, as I cannot seem to reconcile Guru Gobind Singhji completely into this, I would certainly agree that Nanakian philosophy is left wing.
Findingmywayji, I personally do not think that politics has anything to do with this, I think it is youth mentality, and a desire to be part of whatever is 'in' at the moment, peer pressure, and a need to look cool
None of those were on the same level as what we have seen this week. See Lee ji's posts above.
Lets see how many of the looters were labour supporters and tory supporters then you can decide which attitude has caused the damage. From my observations most of the rioters don't have a clue about politics!
So government employees being told they can't wish each other merry Christmas because it might hurt religious sentiment of others is not silly? I am not basing this on newspaper reports but on experience. Not allowing Christmas lights but allowing Eid lights in a town? Again experience. I am all for equality but that is not what has been happening. Bureaucracy has often gone too far in this country.
Not just politics, a lot more is involved.
I agree but to say British politics is as simple as Labour is left wing and Tories are right wing no longer holds anymore. Both have good policies and both have bad policies. Both have contributed to the situation the UK is in today. Both are far more centre than they were 20 years ago and there is more overlap between them now than before. I am not supporting any political party in this nor maligning any others (except the BNF) as I don't think its directly relevant to these riots. Hundreds of countries give their citizens nothing or much less but I don't see mindless violence there (even in the absence of a dictator or military regime).
Not just the cuts but all bad policies designed by chiefs and media treatment of the police. On another thread I actually defended the police. I was trying to show how easy it is to play the blame game but it achieves nothing. I fwork in the NHS. My own pension has been affected and pay is not great. Under labour my working day was also lengthened. However, I won't let that affect how I do my job no matter how disillusioned I am. It's no excuse to provide sub standard care to my patients, there's no excuse for the police not to do their job. I wouldn't say that was behaving in a very Sikhi way!!
They have a better sense of community and identity than England does. That is one possible explanation.
On this we will never see eye to eye. The buck stops with the individual. Always. If a person wants to attack the government they do not need to target the innocent member of public who is making ends meet and struggling along just like anyone else. Nothing you say will persuade me otherwise and I refuse to get into a further political debate with you as I do not and will not agree that it is a basis for the riots. I will continue to say until I am blue in the face there is no excuse for what happened and I will not allow justifications for such behaviour. You want to bring Sikh philosophy into it then responsibility for own actions is essential in Sikhi as is sarbat da bhalla as you say. None of the rioters showed sarbat da bhalla or responsibility-quite the opposite so I will not and cannot let them put responsibility on others. There is always a better way to make a point as shown to us by our own Guru's. After that note I have nothing further to say on this topic.
You talk alot but where is your evidence . Where are your article which back up your claims? As someone who witnessed the riots in Tottenham, Brixton, Southall and Birmingham first hand I can say, that you truly have no idea what you are talking about.
The riots in the 80's up until now were the worst riots mainland Britain had seen. Now that is a fact. Now your claim is that they were not so bad (which is ludicrous), they whyy was the Scarman Inquiry set up?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/25/newsid_2546000/2546233.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/bbc_parliament/3631579.stm
Utter nonsense. I worked in Government at high level for years, and nothing like that ever happened.
As for lights, again utter rubbish. If a Local Authority choses not to do that then vote them out. Nothing to do with Labour policy or Stephen Lawerence.
I said earlier you sounded like a Daily Mail reader, I apologise for that, because you now sound like a Sun reader.
It's ALL politics, the rest is a smoke screen.
Name one good Tory policiy?
Also you know nothing about history or rioting. Rioting is very common place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots
You must be some kind of Superhuman, not to be demoralised, people like you have generally done very well in the NHS.
..and the cuts have already started in the Police, the Government are a bunch of liars:
http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2011/08/police-cuts-are-already-happening/
If the Police aren't behaving in a very Sikh way, that is because they are not Sikh? doh !!!!!
Proof please not speculation. You have not offered one shred of evidence to back up any of your points.
...and Cardiff, Swansea, Glasgow have their fair share of trouble...
Rubbish!
this sounds like something out of a Tory manifesto.
Who's justifying the behaviour, just that your arguments are some of the weakest I have ever read on this forum. No evidence, just speculation....and funny how you started the political element with a dig a Labour and now you are shying away?
Come on, bring in evidence about Labour's economic record. Explain tto me how cuts won't effect policing? Explain to how Thatcher did not say there is no such thing as Society?
Where is Sarbat dha Bhalla from the Government? Where is Sarbat Dha Bhalla when it comes to reducing Police numbers so people can run riot? Where in Sarbat Dha Bhalla in there is no such thing as Society?
The actions of rioters cannot be excused, but the Government is 100% responsible foe creating an environment where they could run riot.
Ironic, people from such low castes who downtrodden who were raised to the status of Kings, have forgotten where they came from....also my father was a businessman, but he always stayed left of center in his politics, and he said to me "son never forget where you came from".
Read The Sikh Revolution by Jagjit Singh. It left no doubt in my mind what was going on. the workers and Labourers in effect became the owners in Punjab. The kisan became a Sardar. The Proletariat took over the means of production.
As for Guru Gobind Singh ji, the action of him bowing down to the Panj Pyarey and also beeing swayed by the will of the Paanth suggest nothing short of a left wing principles.
Your assumption. You know nothing about me so presume to know how I've done or how I feel. I don't sit around crying about my problems and worries and I think its unprofessional to let it affect my work.
I talk of principles and you accuse me of judging you but all you've done in this entire exchange is insult me personally. You know nothing about me and TOS state that issues must be debated not personalities.I said earlier you sounded like a Daily Mail reader, I apologise for that, because you now sound like a Sun reader.
SPNERS
I have thought of a new word = Rooters = Rioters/ Looters.
ps Cordially, Amicably ,Respectfully .That is the Sikh Way.
I have thought of a new word = Rooters = Rioters/ Looters.
ps Cordially, Amicably ,Respectfully .That is the Sikh Way.
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Gurfateh
It has now been 500 years since Sikhism began, Did Guru Nanak expect a society of sikhs all reading from the same song sheet, all in tandem in thought and practice, I am not sure, I am not even sure anymore that the message of sikhism is the same for everyone, how can it be once you have merged it with your personality, with who you are.
Reading the above has been hugely educational for me, neither argument is hugely wrong, nor hugely correct, so how can two sikhs , two very good sikhs who have embraced the ideals of sikhi have so little in common?
What this is saying to me is that if you are a socialist, communist, capitalist or member of the aloo prontha party (donations gratefully received), if you are a sikh, then you apply your sikh ideals and be the best sikh socialist, communist etc that you can be, and these two people, have shown that in their own way, they have defined who they are, and carried out the spirit of sikhi in that.
I personally do read the daily mail, every day, and for my sins, also the sun, I have read the sun since I was 14, and it is the first thing I do every morning, why? because I enjoy it, its the news of the day in a simple and quick fashion, and it has a better problem page than the mirror. I did read the Guardian once, but used lots of long words, couldn't find a problem page in the telegraph, so that was out,
So, lesson learned today is be just be yourself but in a way that is compatible with sikhi.
Many thanks Randipji, findingmywayji for that valuable lesson. I had feared for a long time that I would lose myself and end up being someone else,
It has now been 500 years since Sikhism began, Did Guru Nanak expect a society of sikhs all reading from the same song sheet, all in tandem in thought and practice, I am not sure, I am not even sure anymore that the message of sikhism is the same for everyone, how can it be once you have merged it with your personality, with who you are.
Reading the above has been hugely educational for me, neither argument is hugely wrong, nor hugely correct, so how can two sikhs , two very good sikhs who have embraced the ideals of sikhi have so little in common?
What this is saying to me is that if you are a socialist, communist, capitalist or member of the aloo prontha party (donations gratefully received), if you are a sikh, then you apply your sikh ideals and be the best sikh socialist, communist etc that you can be, and these two people, have shown that in their own way, they have defined who they are, and carried out the spirit of sikhi in that.
I personally do read the daily mail, every day, and for my sins, also the sun, I have read the sun since I was 14, and it is the first thing I do every morning, why? because I enjoy it, its the news of the day in a simple and quick fashion, and it has a better problem page than the mirror. I did read the Guardian once, but used lots of long words, couldn't find a problem page in the telegraph, so that was out,
So, lesson learned today is be just be yourself but in a way that is compatible with sikhi.
Many thanks Randipji, findingmywayji for that valuable lesson. I had feared for a long time that I would lose myself and end up being someone else,
Gurfateh
It has now been 500 years since Sikhism began, Did Guru Nanak expect a society of sikhs all reading from the same song sheet, all in tandem in thought and practice, I am not sure, I am not even sure anymore that the message of sikhism is the same for everyone, how can it be once you have merged it with your personality, with who you are.
Reading the above has been hugely educational for me, neither argument is hugely wrong, nor hugely correct, so how can two sikhs , two very good sikhs who have embraced the ideals of sikhi have so little in common?
What this is saying to me is that if you are a socialist, communist, capitalist or member of the aloo prontha party (donations gratefully received), if you are a sikh, then you apply your sikh ideals and be the best sikh socialist, communist etc that you can be, and these two people, have shown that in their own way, they have defined who they are, and carried out the spirit of sikhi in that.
I personally do read the daily mail, every day, and for my sins, also the sun, I have read the sun since I was 14, and it is the first thing I do every morning, why? because I enjoy it, its the news of the day in a simple and quick fashion, and it has a better problem page than the mirror. I did read the Guardian once, but used lots of long words, couldn't find a problem page in the telegraph, so that was out,
So, lesson learned today is be just be yourself but in a way that is compatible with sikhi.
Many thanks Randipji, findingmywayji for that valuable lesson. I had feared for a long time that I would lose myself and end up being someone else,
Interesting that a recent Channel 4 poll blames poor parenting. 71% blame the politicians.
http://www.channel4.com/news/poor-parenting-to-blame-for-uk-riots-says-exclusive-poll
I would say on the political side, I think our Sikhs have forgotten the hardship the Mughals and Rajputs put the under. They always stood up for the underdog. They always stood up for those without rights.
I mean the tenth master taught the sparrow to challenge the hawk. They sided with the oppressor to smash and put down the poor.
They always challenged authority and leadership that was repressive. Whether it means challenging the Tories because they think because of their priveledged backgrounds they have a divine right to rule, or be be it Labour on issues like Iraq. Sikhs would always challenge them.
Ironic that they have become the Mughals and Rajputs themselves.
I honestly cannot see however, how Sikhs can reconcile Nanakian philosophy with any Right wing philosophy. Right wong philosophy has emphasis on self and self preservation. Sikhi says yes you should care about self but do not forget your obligation to Society "Sarbat dha Bhalla".
My apoligies if you think I have insulted you, but I would also request you do not generalise about other groups or people. You have to admit you made some pretty sweeping assumptions about me, and made sweeping statements with little evidence.
You don't wish to belive me that is fine, but I would say stronglu, use the web. Find out what is going on behind the issues. Don't believe the hype. Don't follow the crowd. Be an individual. Be a Sikh.
Sawa Lakh Se ekh Laraaoon!!
Also you have to remember, old gits like me have seen this kind of stuff before. I myself have been on demo's in the 80's that turned violent, and the same headings in the papers were made about us, and we thought we were doing the right thing by fighting racists (in society and the police).
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