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Bhagats Baba Farid In Guru Granth Sahib

kds1980

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So I am starting new thread on this topic.Some people Believe that Baba Farid whose Bani is in Guru granth Sahib is Baba Farid of Shakarganj some believe that he was Baba farid sani who met Guru Nanak Please share your thoughts and knowledge
 

kds1980

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Re: Baba farid

Brother,
Being a missionary doesen't always mean wrong. When we say Baba Farid was a muslim missionary we start imagining a person with a dark-green turban who swears at the very sight of 'qaafirs' and spends his whole time devising new methods to convert them to Islam. The present missionaries may be like the stereotypes but not Baba Farid, at least this is what I believe. There wasn't any Sikhism (as an organised religion, bcoz Baba Farid had died even before Guru Nanak Sahib was born), so there were only two dominant religions Hinduism and Islam at that time, and Baba Farid believed in Islam (Even as other Bhagats who were either Muslim or Hindu, by birth or by choice, that doesen't mean the Sikhs who believe in their teachings are Hindus or Muslims).
The big question is, WHY did the Gurus include Baba Farid's bani in the Guru Granth Sahib. They wouldn't, for sure had done so, had Baba Farid been a qaafir-hating savage muslim mullah. They did so because he was a true Sufi, a mystic. The words like namaaz, Allah etc. which appear in his Bani are a direct consequence of his Muslim upbringing (For example, for a child living in a Celtic household in Scotland, the only religious place is a 'Church', he may even call a 'Gurudwara' as a 'Sikh Church') and has nothing to do with the alleged qaafir-hating nature. The first thing we should do is to read the underlined message of Sikhism from Baba Farid's Bani, that way, friend we may better be able to judge his true personality. History books are man-made, Bani is Eternal.
Well if look at Guru granth Sahib ,no bani of Hindu or muslim preachers were included as Sikhism rejects both

Here is I want to show you some poiints from a discussion on Tapoban

-Baba Farid Jee whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani, and not the Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century. Bhagat Farid Jee’s bani is the biggest proof of him being a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Even the present head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order Prof. Khalil Nizami says the bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani. Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Prof. Teja Singh Jee, and Budh Singh all agree to this opinion that the Bani written in Guru Granth Sahib jee is that of Farid Sani the contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, and not Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century.

The proof of Baba Farid Jee meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee is his Bani. Fareed Jee writes:

JO GUR DASAY WAATH MUREEDA JOLEA|| (Asa sheikh farid 477)
KAR KIRPA PRAB SAADHSANG MELEE|| (Farid soohi 794)

Muslim sufis never use words such as “Gur�, “Saadh� or "Prabh". According to a book written by Prof. Khalil Nizami spiritual head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order these words were written by Farid Sani because he was heavily influenced by Guru Nanak Dev jee, this is confirmed by the writer of "Swanay Farid".
I just want to add to what S. Singh has written about Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj meeting Baba Farid jee. The original Baba Farid lived about 300 years prior to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Here are some of the points to be noted with respect to him:

1) All Pakistani scholars agree that this Baba Farid jee did not write any baani at all. He was not a poet.

2) He was not a native of Punjab and as such could not have written such purely native countryside Punjabi. It is like asserting that Shakespeare was not English but a German writer. A non-English person could not have written what Shakespeare wrote. Same way, a non-Punjabi could not have written the kind of Punjabi that is in Gurbani under Baba Farid jee name.

3) The Punjabi used in Baba Farid jee’s baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is of the same time as Guru Nanak Sahib jee. All linguistics agree to this. If this baani had been written 300 years before Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, it would have been drastically different. Just compare the Punjabi written today to Punjabi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee’s times.

4) Farid Shakarganj i.e. the Senior Farid, was a staunch Muslim who converted thousands of Hindus to Islam. He was very strict in Sharia and he would have never used non-Islamic words like “Saadh” in his baani.

Now the question arises that if the baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee was not written by Baba Farid Shakarganj then who is the writer of this baani? The answer is very simple. As written in the Janamsaakhis, the writer of this baani was Farid Saani, who was sitting on the gaddi of the original Farid. His name was Sheikh Ibrahim but he was also known as Farid Saani and it was he who met Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

It is this Sheikh Ibrahim, whose spiritual thirst was quenched by Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. He wrote the following shabad to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee:


soohee lalith ||


baerraa ba(n)dhh n sakiou ba(n)dhhan kee vaelaa ||
.

bhar saravar jab ooshhalai thab tharan dhuhaelaa ||1||


hathh n laae kasu(n)bharrai jal jaasee dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||


eik aapeenhai pathalee seh kaerae bolaa ||


dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2||


kehai fareedh sehaeleeho sahu alaaeaesee ||


ha(n)s chalasee ddu(n)manaa ahi than dtaeree thheesee ||3||2||



This shabad of Baba Farid jee portrays the thirst of Baba jee very clearly. He is literally begging for spirituality. In response to this shabad, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee wrote the following shabad:


soohee mehalaa 1 ||


jap thap kaa ba(n)dhh baerrulaa jith la(n)ghehi vehaelaa ||

naa saravar naa ooshhalai aisaa pa(n)thh suhaelaa ||1||

thaeraa eaeko naam ma(n)jeet(h)arraa rathaa maeraa cholaa sadh ra(n)g dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||

saajan chalae piaariaa kio maelaa hoee ||

jae gun hovehi ga(n)t(h)arreeai maelaegaa soee ||2||

miliaa hoe n veeshhurrai jae miliaa hoee ||

aavaa goun nivaariaa hai saachaa soee ||3||

houmai maar nivaariaa seethaa hai cholaa ||

gur bachanee fal paaeiaa seh kae a(n)mrith bolaa ||4||

naanak kehai sehaeleeho sahu kharaa piaaraa ||

ham seh kaereeaa dhaaseeaa saachaa khasam hamaaraa ||5||2||4||



He cries that “bhar Sarvar jabb uchhalai, tabb taran dulela” but Guru Baba jee says “Na sarvar na uchhalai, aisa panth suhela”. He says that his spiritual path is very hard but Siri Guru jee says that the Gurmat path is very easy and full of bliss.

He says "BeRa bandh na sakhiyo" Siri Guru jee says, "Jap tap ka bandh beRla". He says that he has not been able to build his ship to swim across this ocean of world. Siri Guru jee says that if he has not build it yet, then he can now build the ship of Jap-Tap. What a great shabad Siri Guru jee's is! Just amazing. This shabad is most beautiful. I wish some gursikh sing this shabad and I may just listen to it till eternity.

Just compare the two shabads and no one can deny that one was written in response to the other one.

After hearing Siri Guru jee’s shabad, Farid Saani jee became disciple of Guru Nanak Paatshaah. There is no doubt about it. Sirii Guru jee and he met 3 times in total.
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=8841&t=8841&v=f

The arguments given above are quite solid one difficult to refute
 

spnadmin

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Re: Baba Farid in Guru Grath Sahib

kds1980 ji


This comment is probably indefensible

Well if look at Guru granth Sahib ,no bani of Hindu or muslim preachers were included as Sikhism rejects both
The hymns of the bhagats and Sheik Farid that we find in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are there ...we know why they are there...because they were selected by Guru Arjan Dev to be part of the Aad Granth. They are bani because Guru Arjan Dev deemed to include them. They are bani only because they were selected...and all the writings of the sants, bhagats and Farid that were not included are irrelevant.

So the case made by Tapoban may be of historical interest, the later part that you posted quite fascinating. But also something of a distraction. Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.

Is it not somewhat irrelevant to the message of Sheik Farid? Is the historical identity of Sheik Farid more important than the message of his bani?

aritstotle ji was making an important statement, one that disengages religious prejudice from vichaar of SGGS . Nothing he says really pertains to which Baba which century, but goes to the message itself.

The big question is, WHY did the Gurus include Baba Farid's bani in the Guru Granth Sahib. They wouldn't, for sure had done so, had Baba Farid been a qaafir-hating savage muslim mullah. They did so because he was a true Sufi, a mystic. The words like namaaz, Allah etc. which appear in his Bani are a direct consequence of his Muslim upbringing (For example, for a child living in a Celtic household in Scotland, the only religious place is a 'Church', he may even call a 'Gurudwara' as a 'Sikh Church') and has nothing to do with the alleged qaafir-hating nature. The first thing we should do is to read the underlined message of Sikhism from Baba Farid's Bani, that way, friend we may better be able to judge his true personality. History books are man-made, Bani is Eter
 

OSingh

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Jul 15, 2011
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Re: Baba Farid in Guru Grath Sahib

=====
'So the case made by Tapoban may be of historical interest, the later part that you posted quite fascinating. But also something of a distraction. Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.'

======

This statement made against Akhand Kirtani Jatha is totally wrong. AKJ has Never Ever questioned the authenticity of bhagat bani or tried to undermine Guru Granth Sahib ji. Please show me one akhar, one sentence where AKJ have discredited bhagat bani or undermined Guru Granth Sahib. Infact Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh was a premi of bhagat bani, bhai sahib has quoted bhagat bani extensively in his books.

Its unfortunate you have made this statement. Trying to link anti panthic acitivities of Teja Singh Bhasaur and bhai sahib bhai Randhir Singh is wrong.

AKJ are doing and have been doing kirtan seva of Gurbani across the globe since the times of bhai sahib. Through their kirtan, which includes bani from bhagats, they have attached countless sikhs to sri Guru Granth Sahib. You can find so much kirtan on the net from akj that will have shabads from bhagat Kabir ji, bhagat Farid ji etc

Teja Singh Bhasaur and Bhai Randhir Singh were friends before bhai sahib went to jail. Initially Teja Singh had been doing good seva for the panth through chief khalsa diwan organisation. However afterwards Teja Singh drifted away from Gurmat and even went as far as removing bhagat bani from Guru Granth Sahib. However bhai sahib had nothing at all to do with this! Infact after bhai sahib learnt of anti-panthic activities bhai sahib refused to meet Teja Singh:-

====
After Bhai Sahib's release, Babu Teja Singh tried to meet his old friend after twenty years and came to his house to resurrect their old friendship. Bhai Sahib was not there at that moment. When he came to know later of Babu Ji's visit, Bhai Sahib wrote him a letter politely declining to meet him. The contents of the letter are very moving and reveal the true personality of Bhai Sahib and his unshakable and abiding faith in the Sikh tenets, values and traditions. It is therefore considered worthwhile to reproduce the English translation of the same below:

"Babu Teja Singh ji, Waheguru ji ki Fateh. You, dear Sir, have come to see this humble servant of the Panth after one fifth of a century, i.e., 20 years. I was no less eager to have the chance of meeting with you and talking together. But I was deeply pained when I learnt that you have been excommunicated from the Panth by a congregation at Sri Akal Takht. What is even more distressing, you continue to disregard the authority of the Panth. It is now my request that you should be obedient to the Command of the Guru Panth and return to its shelter. Then we shall meet like brothers. It is my hope that you will accede to my request and thereby please the hearts of all of us. I am confident that you will not defy the Guru Panth and will abide by the tradition coming down through generations. Your sincere well wisher (s) Randheer Singh"9
Thus, no personal relationship would deflect Bhai Sahib from obeying in letter and spirit the edicts of the Guru Panth issued from Sri Akal Takht Sahib.
====

Giani Gurdit Singh has also written a great book on the history of bhagats whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib called "Ithas Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Bhagat Bani". Giani ji has done extensive research proving that indeed bani of Sheikh Farid ji in Guru Granth Sahib is not that of Farid Shakarganj ji but that of Farid Sani ji. Giani ji has done great reearch into puratan literature to prove this fact.

Trying to establish the history behind the bhagats does not mean that you are trying to discredit them. How can carrying out research into life of bhagats mean you are trying to discredit Guru Granth Sahib?! Shouldn't we as a panth trying to be carrying out more research into our history?

Rabb Rakhe
 

kds1980

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Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.
Spnadmin ji

I just want to say that the views are from forum of Tapoban and not officially of AKJ.Tapoban was at one time number 1 forum of sikh discussions and lot of sikhs use to participate on that.The Gyani ji of SPN himself was one of the biggest poster on Tapoban .Sikhnet is sponsered by 3ho so one cannot say that all the views on the forum of sikhnet are of 3HO.At present Tapoban forum is quite dead but still its old forum has lot of useful discussions.

And yes the identity of Bhagat Farid is important ,if we can discuss that Bhagat Namdev was idol worshipper or not then why can't we discuss that Farid ji was what type of muslim?
 

OSingh

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Jul 15, 2011
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The issue is not whether views of tapoban are official AKJ views. So what if Gurdwara Tapoban sahib is aligned to AKJ. If you want want to learn more about akhand kirtani jatha then please read books of bhai Randhir Singh and jeevan(life) of various gursikhs from this jatha.

The following statements made are totally wrong:

'Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. '

and

'Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.'

To suggest that AKJ are trying to undermine Guru Granth Sahib can't be further from the truth. Gursikhs like bhai Fauja Singh ji and bhai Avtar Singh ji gave their lives for Guru Granth Sahib in 1978 nirankari attack.

Trying to connect AKJ with chief khalsa diwan is false. Any connection bhai sahib had with this organistion was to promote Gurmat values.

I also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

spnadmin

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I am not disputing the value of historical information one iota. I am asking about the relevance of the discussion regarding Baba Fareed to this statement

also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it
We know that none of the Gurus signed their names to their bani. Guru Arjan Dev inscribed himself on the pages of Aad Granth as Nanak 5. This means that the personal identities of the Bhagats and sants, as well as the gurus, was not as important as their message. All given in the voice of Nanak.

So I question why it is even important to raise the issue as a rejection of Muslim or Hindu identities. Seems not entirely relevant to, and certainly not a repudiation of, what our forum member aristotle had posted.

And please do not confuse issues with straw man statements like this

I just want to say that the views are from forum of Tapoban and not officially of AKJ.Tapoban was at one time number 1 forum of sikh discussions and lot of sikhs use to participate on that.The Gyani ji of SPN himself was one of the biggest poster on Tapoban .Sikhnet is sponsered by 3ho so one cannot say that all the views on the forum of sikhnet are of 3HO.At present Tapoban forum is quite dead but still its old forum has lot of useful discussion
Contextual specifics, but also red herrings, that have no bearing.

welcomekaur
 

spnadmin

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OSingh ji

NO!
Trying to connect AKJ with chief khalsa diwan is false. Any connection bhai sahib had with this organistion was to promote Gurmat values.
I am saying the exact opposite. The rupture occured with Panj Khalsa Diwan. AKJ has been the historical descendants of that movement.

also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it
I agree that history is very important. I do not think that history can be successfully used to "reject" Muslim or Hindu sources, or inject religious prejudice into Guru Granth Sahib.
 

kds1980

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I am not disputing the value of historical information one iota. I am asking about the relevance of the discussion regarding Baba Fareed.

We know that none of the Gurus signed their names to their bani. Guru Arjan Dev inscribed himself on the pages of Aad Granth as Nanak 5. This means that the personal identities of the Bhagats and sants, as well as the gurus, was not as important as their message. All given in the voice of Nanak.

So I question why it is even important to raise the issue as a rejection of Muslim or Hindu identities. Seems not entirely relevant, and certainly not a repudiation of what our forum member aristotle had posted.

welcomekaur
I agree with you that important is message of Bhagats ,but on the other hand should know who were the Bhagats ? If the lives of Bhagats are so unimportant then why sikhhistory.com has section on Bhagats.Is it O.K for us
believe that baba farid of guru granth sahib is baba farid of shakarganj which might be not true

If the baani is Guru granth sahib is of BABA FARID SAANi and we consider it as bani of Farid of shakarganj who may had been a muslim missionary then it could become a tool in the hand of muslim missionaries to spread lies about sikhism and brainwash few sikh youths which don't have much knowledge of Sikhism
 

spnadmin

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kds ji

You are worried?

If the baani is Guru granth sahib is of BABA FARID SAANi and we consider it as bani of Farid of shakarganj who may had been a muslim missionary then it could become a tool in the hand of muslim missionaries to spread lies about sikhism and brainwash few sikh youths which don't have much knowledge of Sikhism
You want to save Sikh youth? You can start by being accurate in your views. This is a harmful statement because it is not true.

Well if look at Guru granth Sahib ,no bani of Hindu or muslim preachers were included as Sikhism rejects both
 

kds1980

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kds ji

You are worried?

You want to save Sikh youth? You can start by being accurate in your views. This is a harmful statement because it is not true.
I am not worried Why should I be ?What I am just trying to say that Why should Sikhs keep on believing That Baba Farid of Shakarganj is the author of Guru granth sahib's bani if he is not? Why should Sikh sites have Chapters on him if he has no connection with sikhism
 

OSingh

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Jul 15, 2011
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'the rupture occured with Panj Khalsa Diwan. AKJ has been the historical descendants of that movement.'

I made a mistake, the organsition was panch khalsa diwan. The above statement makes no sense. Have you even read my post? Why are you still trying to connect AKJ with Panch Khalsa Diwan? Bhai Randhir Singh completely dissassosiated himself with Teja Singh Bhasaur, who worked in this organisation. After bhai sahib was released from jail he had no connection with this organistion, instead he did parchar through kirtan of Gurbani and connected many Sikhs to Guru Granth Sahib ji. (Bhai sahib may have worked in this organisation to promote Gurmat principles, it was Teja Singh Bhasaur however who later drifted away from Gurmat and started to promote anti-Gurmat ideology for which he was kicked out of the panth).

Trying to connect AKJ to Panch Khalsa Diwan to say that they undermine Guru Granth Sahib is ridiculous. Please provide one shred of evidence that AKJ try to undermine bhagat bani or Guru Granth Sahib.

Please read giani Gurdit Singh ji's book. He has provided many arguments to prove sheikh Sani ji's bani is incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib ji and not sheikh Farid Shakarganj ji's.

Your argument that since Guru's only used Nanak in their bani therefore we should not read about their lives doesn't make any sense.

Just because Farid Sani ji's bani is incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib this is somehow 'religious prejudice'? We are just trying to figure out who was the author of bani- sheikh Farid ji. Giani Gurdit Singh has used many old sources to prove that the author of this bani is Sheikh Sani ji. Should we just ignore this evidence?
 

findingmyway

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Admin note: The discussion of the AKJ is taking us off topic so please can we refocus.

Also please can all posters stop making emotional arguments and try and stick to facts or historical evidence that has been reported that can be discussed and backed up.
Thanks.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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There is a group of people who sincerely beleive that there is no such thing as Hndus/Muslims etc who contributed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that ALL contributors are SIKHS.

2. This same group then tries to prove that ALL these bhagats Sheikhs etc met Guru nanak ji in person or were alive during His time.

3. Another Group also beleives the same..albeit a little differently. This Group - mostly Taksallis Babas sants and mahapurashs of derawallahs..insist that when Guru Arjun ji was compiling the AAD GRANTH (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)...ALL these Bhagats, Sheikhs etc appeared in SPIRIT FORM..and requested Guru ji to HONOUR them by incorporating their Banis in the AAD GRANTH. Some other Living Bhagts also came (but they were rejected and thus they went before Emperor jehangir to lodge complaints against Guru Arjun ji leading to His Martyrdom). Whats even more BIZARE is...this same fairy tale also has the RAAGAS, their wives the RAAGNNEES and their children/grankids etc etc..also appearing before Guru Arjun Ji and asking to be HONOURED becasue they were used in Gurbani...and thats how RAAGMAALA came to be written !! and its Gurbani !!!

4. Its a FACT..beyond dispute that what we call "Hindu" or "Muslim" were NOT at all accepted as such by their co-religionists. Bhagat Kabir Ji, bahagt Dhanna Ji, bahgat Ravidass Ji bahgat namdev Ji..were NEVER accepted as HINDU by the Hindus..not then and not now. Same goes for Sheikh farid Ji and other "muslim" contributors. To the Islamic world these are APOSTATES....No muslim today would agree with what we read in Sheikh farid Jis SLOKS in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

5. Its also undisputable that GURU NANAK JI sahib and GURU ARJUN JI Sahib and finally Guru Gobind Singh ji accepted those writings, as EQUAL to theirs because PRIMARILY it was SIKH...perfectly in LINE with what Guru sahibs wrote themselves. Guru Ji has REJECTED a lot of Kabir bani..becasue that did not agree with GURMATT. Guru nanak ji/Guru Arjun Ji sahib CHOSE and selected relevant portions of thes banis very carefully so that today when we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji no bani contradicts any other even remotely.

SO its the "Divine MESSAGE" within and not the OUTWARD FORM of the writer that mattered to GURU JI.....why that form should matter to us is beyond me.....except that we propogate the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as "universal" based NOT on its Universal message..BUT on the "different human forms".."Hindu look alikes like Bhagat Kabir Ji, bhagat dhanna Ji, namdev Ji, ravidass Ji...."Muslim" look alikes like SHEIKH Farid...and occupational look alikes like the Butcher sadhna, the Leather shoe maker ravidass, the Weaver kabir, the farmer Dhanna, the Brahmin the Pandit etc etc. Following this faulty logic..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji wouldnt be "universal" to a JEW..a Christian..a Buddhist..simply becasue there are no JEW look alikes, Chrstian Look alikes or Buddhist look alikes contributing any bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? BUT the FACTS speak otherwise..its the DIVINE MESSAGE OF Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is TRULY UNIVERSAL....not the human bodies/sreers. Guru nanak ji made the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji truly Universal by practising INCLUSIVENESS and not "exclusiveness"

5, Which brings me to the last point..albeit a little off topic...but since it was mentioned...i offer my views....The T-Forum was once a Boharr..a huge tree that stood tall and proud on the Landscape of Sikh internet Forums ...flying the Flag of Sikhi/Gurmatt high...and then along came "gyanis" who were really "agyanis" and EXCLUSIVENESS and not INCLUSIVENESS began to be practised....today T-Forum is a dead khundh (tree trunk)..with almost no posts....luckily a few of the originals who practise "inclusiveness" of Guru nanak ji..planted a new sapling nearby and gurmatbibek flourishes..in time it will grow to be the new baba boharr of Sikh Forums...Guru Willing.

6. afterthought..the SRM presently adopted by Akal takhat/SGPC since 1935 is almost a CARBON COPY of the ORIGINAL Sikh REHAT put together by the Now defunct Panch Khalsa Diwan Bhassaurr. AKJ also follows this Rehat maryada in a stricter form - so although its historicaly TRUE that Bhai randheer Singh of AKJ BROKE OFF completley from hsi old time dear friend babau teja Singh bhassaur of PKD, the moment he was excommunicated by JAT for printing a Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji solely of GURU SAHIB BANIS ONLY. BSB Randhir Singh ji never saw Teja singh again as all Sikhs were "banned" from seeing him. ( At that time the JAT was more Gurmatt friendly" and made Panthic decisoins and so were more RESPECTED than the JATT now who is more Badal friendly and makes decisions based on what badal decides rather than what is Gurmatt/Panthic...and is THUS not many obey his excommunication bans and people continue to meet up with supposedly banned excommunicated poersons like prof darshan singh). SO it was a PERSON-TO-PERSON break up and not idelogical break up...on Raagmalla not being Gurbani the AKJ stand is 100% simialr to that of PKD. Raagmala was not read at PKD Diwans even in malaysia. ON DG also both stand smilarly. ON Meat also both share the same ultra strict NO MEAT AT ALL stand.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
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SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
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KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
History Vs Gurbani.

1. SIKH GURUS gave NIL importance to HUMAN BODY...birthdays..anniversaries..etc etc. That is why NO GURU ever worte any "personal" histories....( The Bhai bala Janamsakhi - proven fake- is the only Janamsakhi. Ever wondered WHY the other GURUS never sanctioned a Guru Angad janamsakhi..a Guru Amardass Ji janamsakhi..?? etc etc..The NEXT Fakes to come on the scene is Gurbilas Pat 6th..Gurbilas pat 10 and bachitar natak !! And ALL written about the same TIME PERIOD as the Bhai bala janamsakhi based on language vocabualry used etc )

2. The Sikh Gurus even disallowed their own individual names..preferring NUMERALS...HUMILITY. ALL used NANAK to signify that the Divine Message of nanak is all the SAME throughout...only the body changes..the message remains the same...
There is no "history"of any Guru in the SGGS. We should follow the same line of thought and not dwell too much on whos who...because Whos WHO are usually for thsoe who seek publicity and FAME versus the HUMILITY sought by the Guru sahibs.
To a SIKH it shoudlnt matter which GURU is saying what...is a Jeewan jaach provided by Guru nanak ji any less/more "valuable"/worthy than that given by Guru teg bahadur Ji ?? NO. it should not matter. Simialrly it doesnt matter which particualr SHEIKH FARID it is..shakarganj..Gurrganj...khandganj..Mitthah Ganj...or namkeen ganj....whatever....the important thing is to FOLLOW what the SLOKS tell US....IF we spent all our lives searching the real "ganj"..and never followed the SLOKS we read at BHOG time....will GURU JI be pleased ?? I dont think so...perrh ginneh ke aamb khanneh..are we going to count the trees or eat the fruits ?? While we are busy counting how many trees..others will have eaten their fill and burped...away into heaven...

4 On the SGGS one wont find even once the name of GURU ARJUN JI...but just walk into a bookshop and buy/get free a Gutka of say..Sukhmani sahib...you will see on the COVER boldy printed..SEWA karwaii Baba Thakur Singh ji thakraal....in bigger letters than sukhmani sahib...and this name will be repeated in the Title Pages and elsewhere many times...sometimes on every single page as a footnote...WHY ?? The Original writer just wrote Mahalla 5 ( and that also just to id the human sreer as guru no. 5 )...BUT the Mere COPYCAT publisher splashes his name all over the Gutka...printed USING SANGAT DONATIONS..and calls this "SEWA KARWAII" ???? load of bull-gobar...HAUMAII nu pattheh pauunneh....feeding ones haumaii with cow grass !! to produce the gobar.

THis is the direct result of giving importance to the HUMAN BODY...dehdhareeism..instead of GURMATT. The "person" begins to supercede the MESSAGE....his "human feet" become poojan yog..worthy of being worshipped..instead of the GYAAN of the Shabad...and that how the babaism//mahapurshism....gets stronger than the SHABAD GYAAN....wrong road....towards derawaad....away from GURMATT.:happymunda:
 

OSingh

SPNer
Jul 15, 2011
54
81
SPN admin bought AKJ into this topic and stated:

'Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.'

This statemnt is false and you have no evidence to back up your claim that Taopban tried to undermine Guru Granth Sahib. This couldn't be further from the truth, gurdwara Tapoban Sahib teach santhiya, punjabi, gurmat classes, kirtan classes, larvar classes, gatka etc. Gurdwara Topoban Sahib are doing great seva and are attaching the sangat to Guru Granth Sahib.

Next quote

'Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture.'

In early stages PKJ did good seva and preached Gurmat principles but later in 1920's they drifted away from Gurmat. You have tried to link PKJ to AKJ by suggesting since PJK opposed bhagat bani therefore AKJ opposed bhagat bani, yet you dont have a shred of evidence for this. AKJ do not reject bhagat bani at all. This was Teja Singh Bhasaur who Bhai Sahib refused to meet because of his anti-panthic ideology.



'Is it not somewhat irrelevant to the message of Sheik Farid? Is the historical identity of Sheik Farid more important than the message of his bani'

and

'There is no "history"of any Guru in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We should follow the same line of thought and not dwell too much on whos' - Jarnail Singh ji

This thread was a discussion on whether bhagats were born before or were alive during Guru Nanak Dev ji's lifetime. In this case the historical identity is relevant due to the fact Sheikh Farid Shakarganj was staunch a muslim who followed sharia and converted many hindus to islam, he was born around 300 years before Guru Nanak Dev ji and he was no a native of Punjab.

These points make it clear that it can't be Farid Shakarganj ji bani in Guru Granth Sahib - the linguistics of Baba Farid ji's bani and Guru Nanak ji's match very closely just read the bani of these Mahapurakhs. It had to be a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev ji due to the similar language used, if it were written 300 years prior the Punjabi used would have been very different. Also Baba Farid ji's bani is pure Gurmat and does not match with Islam ie sharia, Prophet Mohammed being the last messanger, day of judgement etc. Instead Baba ji's bani matches perfectly with the ideals set out by Guru Nanak dev ji. Baba Farid ji stresses the importance meeting Akal Purakh through Satguru and naam simran. These concepts are different to Islamic way to meet God. Therefore it makes more sense that Sheikh Ibrahim who was sitting on the gaddi of Sheikh Farid Shakarganj ji and was 10th in line from this gaddi, drifted away from certain Islamic beliefs and was drawn more towards the bhakti concept. His ideals were now more in line with Gurmat principles. It makes much more sense that it was actually sheikh Ibrahim ji's bani, who was a contemporary of Guru Nanak devji, which was incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib.

Those who believe that Guru Granth Sahib validates all religions and that Guru Granth Sahib says that all relgions lead to God, often use the argument that since Baba Farid was a muslim and his bani is in Guru Granth Sahib, therefore Guru ji accepts Islam can also lead one to God. But using new research one can prove that bhagats whose bani was incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib were not Muslims hindus in the traditional sense but that their ideoligies had move away from Hinduism and Islam and move to a new way to meet God through Satguru and Naam Simran. I urge sangat to read Giani Gurdit Singh's book - 'Itihaas Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Bhagat Bani (History of Guru Granth Sahib: Bhagat Bani, second edition' Giani ji visited birthplaces of the bhagats and found old manuscripts which suggest that bhagats were contempories of Guru Sahib and actually met Maharaj in person.

Their is no problem in someone doing research into this area as long as it is not biased. I agree with Jarnail Singh most important thing is to do paath of bhagat bani. Nowhere have I suggested that history is the most important thing or that history is more important than following bachans of Gurbani. Of course the highest karams are naam simran, abhiyaas of bani, seva etc.

However I still believe that history has an important role, shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru TeghBahadur ji, Chaar sahibzade, Banda Singh Bahadur etc Our history is great and many of these important events have been preserved by various writers.

There is a saying in Panjab that if a jug milk has a few insects in it you don't throw away the whole jug of milk. You remove the insect and use the rest of the milk. Dont throw away the baby with the bathwater. By using the kaswati (touchstone) of Gurbani, we can accept those sakhi's that match with Gurmat and those that reject Gurmat we can discard. By rejecting every single document we could be ignoring diamonds, genuine sakhis that could increase our understanding of the philosophy of Guru Maharaj such as kirat karna - Guru Nanak Dev ji used to do farming and worked in shop at Sulatanpur to earn a living. The ten Guru Sahiban practised what they preached and this can be seen in various episodes during their lives. Sure there are many sakhis that go against Gurmat but we can use Gurbani to help us decipher which sakhis are authentic those which are false.

Damdami Taksal has produced in my opinion produced two of the great leaders of modern times, bhai Kartar Singh ji and bhai Jarnail Singh ji. When bhai Kartar Singh was injured in an accident and required an operation on his heart he refused as this would of meant cutting his hair in order to operate. As a result bhai Kartar Singh ji died. This is the love bhai Kartar Singh ji had for Guru Gobind Singh ji. The whole panth knows of the great seva bhai Jarnail Singh and bhai Amrik Singh did for the panth. Even in their last moments bhai Amrik Singh ji fought like lion against the indian army at Akal Takht. Bhai Jarnail Singh always remained loyal to the panth and Akal Takht and refused to allow ragmala to be read at Akal Takht even though he was a firm believer in Ragamala. Bhai Thakur Singh ji even in his old age went abroad to various countries trying to raise money for shaheed families. Its easy to criticize and look at faults of Taksal but nobody can take away their contribution for the panth. Their legacy will not diminish and rightly so.

Rabb rakhe

Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa Waheguru Ki Fateh
 

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