Are Lascivious Thoughts Immoral If Not Acted On?

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Passingby ji, just some examples of my weaknesses over the time. I suppose you are saying that all such could have been changed through mental training/watching thoughts and I wonder what would have been the effort and benefit.

Tu Cheez.Badi Hai Mast-Mohra - YouTube

1. I wish I was at the stage with Raveena Tandon to protect her from all the evil and would have liked to embrace her. Just the thought remained.

Song: Man Dole Mera Tan Dole Mere Film: Nagin (1954) with Sinhala Subtitles - YouTube

2. I used to wish I was in the Jungle to hug Vjyantimala ji. Beautiful. Unfortunately she never knew and it just stayed a thought!

Kundalini Yoga Dance the Chakras - YouTube
3. I would like to unwind my Kundalini too! Great teacher I will like to learn from her as she is cute too! Just the thought remained.

Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla. - YouTube
4. I wish I could touch Mohinder Singh ji's feet and thank him personally for this rendition. Just the thought remains.

I know 1, 2 and 3 can be considered "lascivious" for sure.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Ambarsaria Veera Where can I join that yoga class, as I'm really interested in her, I mean yoga!They say it is the thought that counts, I feel that Guru Nanak said Words do not make a sinner or a saint ,Actions are only written in the book of fate.Also if you do not know how to create a thought on demand, how can you be responsible for it,sometimes we say "I can't think" so this means we can't create a thought even when we try ,maybe we are reacting to a stimulas ,usually beauty and that is only natural if you were gay you could stand on the corner and look at girls all day and not have that thought..If I had a pound for every lascivious thought, I would be rich!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Ambarsaria Veera Where can I join that yoga class, as I'm really interested in her, I mean yoga!
Sinner ji I am not going to partake in pushing any further sins to the pure (regardless, I guess lot of the Kundalini stuff is California). However a thought not acted upon is well described in the following,

Imagination-Just an illusion - YouTube

Lot of religions and sects have been created for thought and mind control like Hinduism, Buddhism as some from Indian sub-continent. Lot of monies and fame achieved by many an exploiters.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Veera Ambarsaria Ji The merit in being jat-hi is overcoming lust ,if there was no lust, there could be no jat-hi.I keep feel like watching her do that dance again ,it was hip-notic.Please don't worry about the pure ,we have to share with the impure too,If you could be a bit more specific though as California is a big place ,do you have the zip code by anychance?Seriously though, I think it could lead to behaving in an immoral way but thought is not really a behavior in itself and immorality is behaving in a wrong manner.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Ambar Veera The merit in being jat-hi is overcoming lust ,if there was no lust, there could be no jat-hi.I keep feel like watching her do that dance again ,it was hip-notic.Please don't worry about the pure ,we have to share with the impure too,If you could be a bit more specific though as California is a big place ,do you have the zip code by anychance?
Sinner ji I have no clue about the video. I searched to answer one of the Kundalini threads and got to this video on Youtube.

Hope it helps.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
I have already presented what I could. The problem with discussion on forums is that it has a long turn-around time and when the a person chooses to stick to some parts and completely ignore other parts of the exchange it becomes fruitless and directionless. I already made a distinction between control and awareness yet it has been ignored.

Leaving aside for a moment the fact that I did NOT talk about mind-control, the posts here also seem to imply as if there is no place of 'mind-control' in Sikhism and it is something laughable or complicated hocus-pocus which Sikhism does not concern itself with. The simple fact is Gurbani DOES concern itself with all this. That is why it says

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ਸਾਧੋ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਉ ॥ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਕੀ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭਾਗਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Clearly one is told to run away from Kaam, Krodha and company of evil people because of their effect on mind. And how does the effect manifest ? In form of thoughts and emotions! This is self-evident. It seems absurd to point this simple fact out!

If one cannot discuss mind, thoughts, emotions on a Philosophical forum (even if its a Sikh forum) then surely something is wrong. Its sad to experience this just when I was beginning to think that SPN is a great place for gaining something.

In any case before this becomes ugly I shall unsubscribe from this thread if there is a provision for it and if there isn't I shall ignore the notification regarding this thread. This were my last words on this thread.
 
Rev. GEOFFRY KERSLAKE is a priest of the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Ottawa.

A basic moral principle for Catholic Christians is that we should always treat other people with respect and never use them as objects or a means to getting our own way.


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/R...l+acted+upon/5319364/story.html#ixzz1WQijoMdR


I had little objection with regard to the Muslim perspective in the essay than I did with the Buddhist. ;-) So allow me to try and give a more correct representation of the latter.

As human beings it is not to be expected that there will not be strong sensual desire. After all, this is a sensual plain of existence and being born a human is result of good karma, which means that different from hell, we are here to reap the fruits in the form of pleasant sense experiences.

Sexual desire is desire, only unlike for example; desire for certain foods and music, this one is especially strong. In general, for a man, there is no sight more arousing than that of a woman (same with a woman for a man), likewise no flavour, sound, smell nor touch.

So it is not surprising that we will have lustful thoughts! Only that unlike food, music and so on, in an attempt at satisfying our urges, with sex, this necessarily involves interaction with another being. And here comes in the question of moral conduct. For a married man, having a relationship with someone other than one's own wife can therefore only be wrong. For an unmarried man, things such as whether the other person is engaged to someone else, or whether she is still under the protection of parents or guardians or that she is a minor should be taken into account because of the consequence that these have, (though I think visiting a prostitute is OK).

Let us not forget however, that desire is desire and it is in the nature of this to accumulate. Therefore although it is never wrong to have sexual relationship with one's own partner, we should not overlook the fact that if we become obsessed with it, this can one day lead to misconduct in the form of sexual relationships outside of marriage. And this is where we need to consider the nature of desire itself.

Since sex comes down to the experiences through the five senses, we can see then that if we are unrestrained in desire for the objects of the senses in general, this has influence on our attitudes towards sex as well. Indeed, when desire is strong, it can lead to immoral conducts such as lying, stealing and killing, and also sexual misconduct.

What then should be our attitude towards desire in general and sexual desire in particular? For the latter, there is for example, meditation on the "loathsomeness of the body" where the body is broken down into constituent parts, which makes it that when taken out of context of the overall "looks", it is not pleasant looking anymore, like hair in the soup bowl. Also one could be encouraged to have wholesome thoughts to replace the lustful ones. Both these although wholesome and encouraging of calm, however involve only 'suppression' which do not lead to desire in general being reduced. The only way that desire is ever dealt with any lasting effect is the development of understanding with regard to its true nature.

When desire arises we can understand that it has arisen by conditions beyond control and be reminded then, of the as yet strong underlying tendency which won't go away any time soon. However being that this must involve a level of understanding which is characterized by a degree of detachment, instead of being discouraged, one is motivated with patience and courage to continue looking in that direction. But before there is any direct awareness and understanding of the reality of the moment, there must first be a correct intellectual understanding as to the nature of the different realities including desire, and also that of awareness and understanding itself.

That we have a sense of something having occurred is evidence that it has fallen away already. There is therefore no point in trying to deal with it, let alone feel guilty. Wrestling with one's desire can only be done with ignorance and desire and this means that it is actually increasing. In other words, it is part of the development of understanding to realize that you can't desire to rid of desire.

Seeing this and all the other traps that come with the perception of a "me" who is this way or that way and needs to do something in order to become / change, one is lead to conclude that the development of wisdom must be natural. In other words we are to understand who we are and this won't happen if we believe that we should be doing something in particular or be at another place or time in order that such an understanding can happen or be facilitated. Therefore there is no place for such things as 'meditation' or the practice of 'mind control' in the Buddha's teachings.

If one must use the word 'control' this can refer to the fact of wholesome states arising in place of unwholesome ones or that of wisdom arising in place of ignorance and craving. These however refer to impersonal elements following a particular developmental path and not a result of some "formal practice". The conditions for the development of wisdom or 'right understanding' as stated by the Buddha are:

1. Association with superior, knowledgeable people
2. Hearing the Dharma
3. Careful attention
4. Practice in accordance with the Dharma

None of these happen because we choose it. Only wisdom can recognize wisdom, and if this does not happen, one *will* be wrong about it all. One manifestation of this is the idea of sitting down to meditate in order to watch thoughts. What happens in such a case is simply the replacement of one pattern of thinking with another. While wisdom if arisen would know 'thinking' as just thinking which is impermanent and non-self, the meditator in experiencing states of mind *different* from normal is actually being fooled by what is called "illusion of result". This then motivates him to continue with the particular practice all the while increasing the perception of "me", me who is, who needs to do, who does, who will be, and who achieves.

Getting back to the matter of lustful thoughts, we can now see that the only right approach is to understand it as just another conditioned arising. Thinking arises and falls away instantly just like any other reality and the attachment accompanying it is equally fleeting and can also be understood. This kind of understanding must grow firm such that we then are not attracted by suggestions to particular deliberate practices. And when it comes to the idea of watching thoughts even now, is it not evident that this happens because we fail to see that the thinking has arisen and already fallen away? And is it not then that what follows is a case of being caught up in thinking rather than understanding it?

I think that this is enough for now. Will wait for a response before adding more.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
NOTE: I have not changed any of Confused ji's words only changed the color, italics or bold for highlighting for self and if it helps others.
My brother Confused ji comes through again let us note some of the wisdom from the above post,

As human beings it is not to be expected that there will not be strong sensual desire. After all, this is a sensual plain of existence and being born a human is result of good karma, which means that different from hell, we are here to reap the fruits in the form of pleasant sense experiences.

Sexual desire is desire, only unlike for example; desire for certain foods and music, this one is especially strong. In general, for a man, there is no sight more arousing than that of a woman (same with a woman for a man), likewise no flavour, sound, smell nor touch. mundahug

So it is not surprising that we will have lustful thoughts! mundahug Only that unlike food, music and so on, in an attempt at satisfying our urges, with sex, this necessarily involves interaction with another being. And here comes in the question of moral conduct. For a married man, having a relationship with someone other than one's own wife can therefore only be wrong. For an unmarried man, things such as whether the other person is engaged to someone else, or whether she is still under the protection of parents or guardians or that she is a minor should be taken into account because of the consequence that these have, (though I think visiting a prostitute is OK). peacesign

Let us not forget however, that desire is desire and it is in the nature of this to accumulate. Therefore although it is never wrong to have sexual relationship with one's own partner, we should not overlook the fact that if we become obsessed with it, this can one day lead to misconduct in the form of sexual relationships outside of marriage. And this is where we need to consider the nature of desire itself. peacesign

What then should be our attitude towards desire in general and sexual desire in particular? For the latter, there is for example, meditation on the "loathsomeness of the body" where the body is broken down into constituent parts, which makes it that when taken out of context of the overall "looks", it is not pleasant looking anymore, like hair in the soup bowl. Also one could be encouraged to have wholesome thoughts to replace the lustful ones. Both these although wholesome and encouraging of calm, however involve only 'suppression' which do not lead to desire in general being reduced. mundahug The only way that desire is ever dealt with any lasting effect is the development of understanding with regard to its true nature.

When desire arises we can understand that it has arisen by conditions beyond control and be reminded then, of the as yet strong underlying tendency which won't go away any time soon. mundahugHowever being that this must involve a level of understanding which is characterized by a degree of detachment, instead of being discouraged, one is motivated with patience and courage to continue looking in that direction. But before there is any direct awareness and understanding of the reality of the moment, there must first be a correct intellectual understanding as to the nature of the different realities including desire, and also that of awareness and understanding itself. mundahugmundahug

That we have a sense of something having occurred is evidence that it has fallen away already. There is therefore no point in trying to deal with it, let alone feel guilty. peacesignWrestling with one's desire can only be done with ignorance and desire and this means that it is actually increasing. peacesignIn other words, it is part of the development of understanding to realize that you can't desire to rid of desire. lolmundahug

Seeing this and all the other traps that come with the perception of a "me" who is this way or that way and needs to do something in order to become / change, one is lead to conclude that the
development of wisdom must be natural.
mundahug In other words we are to understand who we are and this won't happen if we believe that we should be doing something in particular or be at another place or time in order that such an understanding can happen or be facilitated. Therefore there is no place for such things as 'meditation' or the practice of 'mind control' in the Buddha's teachings. mundahug
Confused ji other than Karma aspect in the first paragraph, I have nothing but appreciation and genuinely thank you for your contributions again. I tried to say such in many a posts in a dis-jointed fashion but your layout is "BRILLIANT".

Thank you many a times again. mundahug

PS: Confused ji other than Karma, based on my understanding of Sikhism, everything else that you say in the above has no conflicts with Sikhism's teachings.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Ambarsariah Ji..one can never STOP..watching. I am sure you would have heard the story of the prostitute who asked a saint...is your long white beard as pure as people say...and he said I cannot answer that now. On hsi deathbed he called the prostitute to come to his bedside..and declared..Now I cna say with conviction that my beard is WHITE becasue theres almost no chance of me soiling it by any action...
SO "watching" is a lifelong passion/duty...only at deathbed can we see the results..of a life long watch..AANT KAAL jo....Simreh...means just that.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
I had dinner with a very wholesome friend some time ago, married, professional, faithful, I asked him what the contents of his mind were like, he smiled and replied, 'a cesspit!'

I have huge difficulty reconciling good men with good actions and minds like cesspits, in my view, our minds are like torches, they shine lights on things that interest us, the more time we spend shining a light on something, the more we think, meditate and contemplate it.

If a man can live a hugely pious life, but spend a lifetime training the meditative mind so that he can live his perfect fantasy life in his head is that going to help him realise his internal Guru?

For some men, these are not just fleeting thoughts, they are a whole separate parallel life. Every thought, every fantasy not only leaves an illumination of the fantasy shadowing our real life, but wastes valuable thinking and doing time, it is a sign of discontent with real life.

Strangely enough, sometimes having the courage to live out fantasies, sexual or not, and to see first hand the effects and real time consequences can be a good thing, it educates and confirms, and viewed side by side against the fantasy, exposes it for the waste of time it actually is, of course some people need to spend years in this pursuit before enlightenment kicks in, years, and years and years .......
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Passingby Ji Try to watch your thoughts ,sometimes they can get get peremptory and frustrated,you have wrote very well be patient,Ambarsaria Veera must have started listening to Bhagat Kabir Ji Shaloks or Raveena Tandon Songslol
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Passingby Ji Try to watch your thoughts ,sometimes they can get get peremptory and frustrated,you have wrote very well be patient,Ambarsaria Veera must have started listening to Bhagat Kabir Ji Shaloks or Raveena Tandon Songslol
I must say I like all videos except Kundalini one which was kind of "tongue-in-cheek".

I don't believe in thought control. I am not against watching yourself in many ways as per "confused ji's post" and slowly but surely you become in the way you think and the way you act. All the stuff not in line with such development falls by the wayside naturally. No magic or cleansing baths or mental shampoos needed.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
My brother Confused ji comes through again let us note some of the wisdom from the above post,

Confused ji other than Karma, based on my understanding of Sikhism, everything else that you say in the above has no conflicts with Sikhism's teachings.

Ambarsaria ji,

I am happy that you appreciate my message, which means that you actually agree with some aspect of Karma. Maybe later on, you will appreciate the other aspects as well. ;-)
 
Harry ji,

I would like to comment on this message of yours.


I had dinner with a very wholesome friend some time ago, married, professional, faithful, I asked him what the contents of his mind were like, he smiled and replied, 'a cesspit!'


I have huge difficulty reconciling good men with good actions and minds like cesspits, in my view, our minds are like torches, they shine lights on things that interest us, the more time we spend shining a light on something, the more we think, meditate and contemplate it.

There may be a point where the mind becomes markedly pure, but this I believe is a long, long way away. In the meantime a sign of being on the right track would I think, be that one sees more and more of one's own faults. Hence I believe the impression would be more or less as what your friend says, 'a cesspit'.


If a man can live a hugely pious life, but spend a lifetime training the meditative mind so that he can live his perfect fantasy life in his head is that going to help him realise his internal Guru?

For some men, these are not just fleeting thoughts, they are a whole separate parallel life. Every thought, every fantasy not only leaves an illumination of the fantasy shadowing our real life, but wastes valuable thinking and doing time, it is a sign of discontent with real life.


Different people, different accumulated tendencies. Discontent can sometimes follow from having some glimpse into the nature of reality, namely that it is impermanent and insubstantial. And contentment may actually be manifestation of the bliss of ignorance. What I'm saying is that we should not think in terms of contentment / discontentment to judge whether someone is on the right track or not.

With regard to morality, it is said that one needs to live with the particular person for a long time before coming to a conclusion whether that person is moral or not and this too, one must be moral oneself. With regard to wisdom, this happens through questioning and discussions and again, we ourselves must first have some wisdom.

I do not think it is helpful to go by the kind of perception such as that, "For some men, these are not just fleeting thoughts, they are a whole separate parallel life".

Fleetingness is the nature of all states.
That we get the impression of thoughts lasting is exactly because of ignorance. What actually happens is that thinking arises and falls away very rapidly, only that one perception links with another which then gives the impression of continuity. We can see that when we think of others with kindness, this doesn't appear to last very long, but quickly other impressions come in. This is because compared to such things as attachment, aversion and conceit, the tendency to kindness is so little. On the other hand, when we are angry with someone or attached to something, this seems to go on for a long time.

What actually happens is that because attachment and aversion arises so easily, it conditions thoughts in a way where one set of perceptions lead to another, hence these continue to arise again and again. And of course, we can see that in fact, other experiences, such as seeing and hearing rise and fall away in between all the time. Except that due to the great amount of ignorance, these are not known but instead one is "lost in the thoughts". And this continues until some perception through one of the senses are strong enough to start another train of thought, at which point one may suddenly feel overwhelmed by the weight of the preceding obsessive thought and begin to think of something else (with attachment of course).

Thinking with aversion is the result of seeing the negative side of the person. If however, due to conditions, one suddenly had thoughts about the positive side of that person; the train of thought can be seen to be completely different. This shows that what we think is determined by whether the consciousness is rooted in wholesome factors or unwholesome factors and that no thought really lasts. Indeed if we are just a little observant, we can see that even when being obsessed, actually other thoughts come in all the time, although too insignificant to change the general direction.

Yes, obsession does take place. But instead of suggesting that 'for some people thoughts are fleeting and for others they are not', you should be saying that 'sometimes there is obsession and sometimes not'. You could also point out the perhaps the obsession is due to the attachment or aversion being stronger than when there is no obsession. But whether one thinks for a few seconds about something or hours on end about it, the fact remains that thoughts arise and fall away instantly.

And besides, being obsessed or not is not even the deciding factor as to how much of ignorance and craving there is. Some person with attention deficiency may find himself jumping from one object to another all day, while another in being obsessed with just one or two things, may at other times be experiencing more wholesome states.


Strangely enough, sometimes having the courage to live out fantasies, sexual or not, and to see first hand the effects and real time consequences can be a good thing, it educates and confirms, and viewed side by side against the fantasy, exposes it for the waste of time it actually is, of course some people need to spend years in this pursuit before enlightenment kicks in, years, and years and years


If wisdom arises, this is in spite of the attachment and ignorance and not as a result of it. And wisdom will know this! If we get the impression that we have learnt something from past wrongs, this likely is an instance of attachment and not of wisdom.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
A most excellent post Confusedji, some clarification and comments would be great!

Harry ji,

I would like to comment on this message of yours.




There may be a point where the mind becomes markedly pure, but this I believe is a long, long way away. In the meantime a sign of being on the right track would I think, be that one sees more and more of one's own faults. Hence I believe the impression would be more or less as what your friend says, 'a cesspit'.

so to expect someones mind not to be a cesspit would be unusual, I would like to think of my own mind as not being a cesspit, but am I lying to myself, I have erected boundaries to my thinking to the point that any transgression results in guilt or the construction of parallel personalities to achieve this, maybe I should just let it flow



Different people, different accumulated tendencies. Discontent can sometimes follow from having some glimpse into the nature of reality, namely that it is impermanent and insubstantial. And contentment may actually be manifestation of the bliss of ignorance. What I'm saying is that we should not think in terms of contentment / discontentment to judge whether someone is on the right track or not.

It is clearly wrong to seek contentment even if it is the byproduct of ignorance, I suppose in my heart I crave contentment so much that at times I would be willing to drown in the bliss of ignorance, but on the other hand, if these boundaries that have been erected are boundaries to keep ignorance in and wisdom out, in order to maintain some sort of mental status quo, then I am on what possibly appears to be the right track, but is not

With regard to morality, it is said that one needs to live with the particular person for a long time before coming to a conclusion whether that person is moral or not and this too, one must be moral oneself. With regard to wisdom, this happens through questioning and discussions and again, we ourselves must first have some wisdom.

This begs the question, what is morality?, is it clean thinking? clean actions? or acceptance of imperfection and being 'yourself'

I do not think it is helpful to go by the kind of perception such as that, "For some men, these are not just fleeting thoughts, they are a whole separate parallel life".

Fleetingness is the nature of all states.
That we get the impression of thoughts lasting is exactly because of ignorance. What actually happens is that thinking arises and falls away very rapidly, only that one perception links with another which then gives the impression of continuity. We can see that when we think of others with kindness, this doesn't appear to last very long, but quickly other impressions come in. This is because compared to such things as attachment, aversion and conceit, the tendency to kindness is so little. On the other hand, when we are angry with someone or attached to something, this seems to go on for a long time.

This is extremely true, I myself have a terrible habit of 'racking up' good deeds, and then keeping a mental record of deeds given as opposed to deeds given back. Although I try and act with ' a heart', there are times when I can think of nothing other than 'why am I always giving', and instead of accepting the good in others, I find everyone around me complacent in my giving. In my lust for alooprontha, I have come to the conclusion that I suffer extreme attachment to alooprontha, which causes me much mental debating. The question then is to try and use discipline and wisdom so that I can enjoy AP without being attached to it, to lose AP altogether, or to indulge myself completely and accept that I am attached.
What actually happens is that because attachment and aversion arises so easily, it conditions thoughts in a way where one set of perceptions lead to another, hence these continue to arise again and again. And of course, we can see that in fact, other experiences, such as seeing and hearing rise and fall away in between all the time. Except that due to the great amount of ignorance, these are not known but instead one is "lost in the thoughts". And this continues until some perception through one of the senses are strong enough to start another train of thought, at which point one may suddenly feel overwhelmed by the weight of the preceding obsessive thought and begin to think of something else (with attachment of course).

Thinking with aversion is the result of seeing the negative side of the person. If however, due to conditions, one suddenly had thoughts about the positive side of that person; the train of thought can be seen to be completely different. This shows that what we think is determined by whether the consciousness is rooted in wholesome factors or unwholesome factors and that no thought really lasts. Indeed if we are just a little observant, we can see that even when being obsessed, actually other thoughts come in all the time, although too insignificant to change the general direction.

Yes, obsession does take place. But instead of suggesting that 'for some people thoughts are fleeting and for others they are not', you should be saying that 'sometimes there is obsession and sometimes not'. You could also point out the perhaps the obsession is due to the attachment or aversion being stronger than when there is no obsession. But whether one thinks for a few seconds about something or hours on end about it, the fact remains that thoughts arise and fall away instantly.

This does beg the question, 'who am i'. My thoughts often turn 180 degrees, some might say this is fickle, I would like to think that my thoughts vary on new information, but more importantly how balanced my mind is, I seem to be capable of seeing any point of view, while this makes me open minded, I feel it also makes me change direction continually.

And besides, being obsessed or not is not even the deciding factor as to how much of ignorance and craving there is. Some person with attention deficiency may find himself jumping from one object to another all day, while another in being obsessed with just one or two things, may at other times be experiencing more wholesome states.

I would very much like to hear your defination of a wholesome state



If wisdom arises, this is in spite of the attachment and ignorance and not as a result of it. And wisdom will know this! If we get the impression that we have learnt something from past wrongs, this likely is an instance of attachment and not of wisdom.

now here we have a statement that defines my entire life, I have been quite personal in this reply, because this last line threatens to redefine everything. As an addict to most things throughout my life, I would like to think that I have learnt everything I know from all the wrong I have done in my life, without a need to erect barriers, I know that gambling bores me, the thought of other women bores me, pride and ego bore me, dinner parties bore me, big fast cars etc etc etc, I have always felt that my lifestyle has in some way contributed to the partial peace I feel today, not to be pulled by various things is a huge relief, not wanting to do various things is a huge relief, what you are saying is that I feel this way inspite of what I have done, not because of it, and that I am having difficulty squaring, I look forward to your reply Confusedji
 

findingmyway

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Can actions and thoughts be truly separated? Take for example a man who goes to Gurdwara to learn. Outwardly his action of going there is lauded and an assumption is made about his thoughts. However, once there he finds his thoughts bending to the other side of the room. Should he not make an effort to return his thoughts in a more useful direction? Can his thoughts be ignored even though they are so discordant from his actions? Surely it is this way of thinking that allows sevadaars to steal from golucks etc. Surely bringing action and thought together is what Gurbani teaches us and that both should be appropriate for the situation.

I like the new profile pics posted by Harry ji and Ambarsaria ji. Surely the action to post those is a reflection of their changing thoughts!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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findingmyway ji thanks for the post. Thanks also for comment on the "avatar", what do you see it as a "meany lion" or "gentle lion that can pounce but can also be petted" :sippingcoffeemunda:
Can actions and thoughts be truly separated? Take for example a man who goes to Gurdwara to learn. Outwardly his action of going there is lauded and an assumption is made about his thoughts. However, once there he finds his thoughts bending to the other side of the room. Should he not make an effort to return his thoughts in a more useful direction? Can his thoughts be ignored even though they are so discordant from his actions? Surely it is this way of thinking that allows sevadaars to steal from golucks etc.

Surely bringing action and thought together is what Gurbani teaches us and that both should be appropriate for the situation.

This is most exceptional point. When there is no difference in your inner-self and outer-self then you have true living of however you are. Once you pick such style then you have the opportunity to learn from Gurbani and continuously improve and become a Gursikh of the highest esteem.

We do need to recognize that not all thoughts lead to actions so we need to cut a little slack to people. We should not chastise people for lascvious or other less than moral thoughts. When mind is idle it is allowed to explore without bounds as that is fundamental to creativity at the chance of allowing some so called immoral or less than wholesome thoughts.

I like the new profile pics posted by Harry ji and Ambarsaria ji. Surely the action to post those is a reflection of their changing thoughts!
Sat Sri Akal.
 
Harry ji,

There is so much to discuss, but I don't know if I'll be able to cover all the important points.


There may be a point where the mind becomes markedly pure, but this I believe is a long, long way away. In the meantime a sign of being on the right track would I think, be that one sees more and more of one's own faults. Hence I believe the impression would be more or less as what your friend says, 'a cesspit'.

so to expect someones mind not to be a cesspit would be unusual,

We don't go about judging people this way of course. What we do take note is their actions through speech and body, and clearly in some cases, what comes across to us is genuine goodness, and we should in fact rejoice in this. The perception of cesspit is that of each individual's own mind and not that of the other person. But yes, we should expect that we are all much defiled.


I would like to think of my own mind as not being a cesspit, but am I lying to myself,

Lying involves the intention to deceive another person, you are therefore not lying. I do believe that you are genuinely good (perception from the standpoint of the other person ;-)), and that you readily empathize with other people, unlike me, who is quite autistic. What may be going on with you however is that you have identified with your intentions, which come across to you as good, not by wisdom, but something else. And of course, as compared to some of us, you may indeed have strong accumulations to particular good deeds and this is why you do what you do. But still, if we are aware of what goes on from moment to moment, we can see that in any situation, there are both good and bad motives alternating and the self-seeking ones are much more if not overarching.

For those of us who have made "good" our aim, there is also what in the Buddhist teachings, called "Cheating States".

It is to be expected, given the lack of wisdom, that when introduced to religious ideas, particularly those related to mental development and purity of conduct, that attachment will be directed towards wanting to accumulate and to achieve. The attachment to 'self' is deeply rooted and has replaced worldly ambition with a so called, spiritual one. Cheating states are those that come across to the person as signs of success along the spiritual path but are in fact not. In reality these come down to being different manifestations of attachment, wrong understanding and conceit, and this means, self-deceptions.

Here we can see the importance of having understanding from the very beginning. And also that all kinds of good such as, truthfulness, patience, morality, equanimity, renunciation and so on, need to be developed as support; otherwise we will keep going off-track and be fooling ourselves.


I have erected boundaries to my thinking to the point that any transgression results in guilt or the construction of parallel personalities to achieve this, maybe I should just let it flow

"Understanding" is the key and it is understanding which detaches. The idea of 'letting go' or 'letting it flow' is just that, an idea. When understanding arises, there is detachment but no idea about doing it or not doing it. Indeed thinking to let go and trying to follow it through must be due to attachment which then will likely encourage one or more of the 'cheating states' to take over.

There is a Buddhist concept called 'Silabattaparamasa', or 'attachment to rules and rituals'. The "Sila" in this phrase is the Pali for "morality". What this then means is that, attachment to morality leads to actions and practices which amount to being "rules and rituals".

Guilt is a form of aversion and reflects attachment to "self". So you can see how these relate to each other, namely attachment to doing good and feelings of guilt when failing. Instead of guilt, there should be moral shame and fear of blame. While guilt is characterized by agitation and accompanied by unpleasant feeling, moral shame is never agitated or unpleasant. Indeed it arises with all good states and accompanied by faith, calm and a degree of detachment. So you might like to consider this as indicator as to whether what you do is right or not….


It is clearly wrong to seek contentment even if it is the byproduct of ignorance, I suppose in my heart I crave contentment so much that at times I would be willing to drown in the bliss of ignorance, but on the other hand, if these boundaries that have been erected are boundaries to keep ignorance in and wisdom out, in order to maintain some sort of mental status quo, then I am on what possibly appears to be the right track, but is not


Whatever it is, only wisdom can really know. But it has to know it when it manifests and not as an idea or thinking in retrospect. We can't stop thinking about the past, however when this happens, if we do not realize that this is only "thinking" chances are that another muddle is created in which we are then caught. There can be thinking about one's past deeds with a mind which appreciates the deed itself and this is fine, although this may not have anything to do with wisdom. Usually however, the thinking revolves around me, mine and I, and this is not fine.


With regard to morality, it is said that one needs to live with the particular person for a long time before coming to a conclusion whether that person is moral or not and this too, one must be moral oneself. With regard to wisdom, this happens through questioning and discussions and again, we ourselves must first have some wisdom.

This begs the question, what is morality?, is it clean thinking? clean actions? or acceptance of imperfection and being 'yourself'


There is morality which is restraint and there is morality which is action.
The former is when otherwise mental, verbal or bodily transgression would have arisen, but instead a moment of restraint arises due to moral shame and fear of blame. The latter is expressed as good manners which include being considerate, showing respect, expressing gratitude and helping other people. They all point to the state of mind and not to the outward actions. This is why it takes time and very close observation and us being moral ourselves, to know whether someone else is truly moral or not.


This is extremely true, I myself have a terrible habit of 'racking up' good deeds, and then keeping a mental record of deeds given as opposed to deeds given back. Although I try and act with ' a heart', there are times when I can think of nothing other than 'why am I always giving', and instead of accepting the good in others, I find everyone around me complacent in my giving. In my lust for alooprontha, I have come to the conclusion that I suffer extreme attachment to alooprontha, which causes me much mental debating.

This is ordinary attachment which I'm sure will never be the cause for you to act immorally, so I don't think that you should be concerned about it. Indeed that you are, is sign of attachment to 'self', and this is a problem you should be aware of!


The question then is to try and use discipline and wisdom so that I can enjoy AP without being attached to it, to lose AP altogether, or to indulge myself completely and accept that I am attached.

What state of mind does "enjoying" primarily consist of if not attachment? Attachment comes in many forms and degrees. Enjoying food is harmless and should not be our concern because in fact there are other more harmful attachments, including to the idea of being without attachment and using discipline and wisdom to get there.

Right understanding is the goal from beginning to the end. Attachment, ignorance, aversion and conceit are dealt with as the understanding develops. The idea of dealing with these with wisdom is not itself an instance of wisdom, but that of ambition. It is overreaching. This is the kind of trap that we get into if we do not see the role and importance of understanding and to being patient about it.


Yes, obsession does take place. But instead of suggesting that 'for some people thoughts are fleeting and for others they are not', you should be saying that 'sometimes there is obsession and sometimes not'. You could also point out the perhaps the obsession is due to the attachment or aversion being stronger than when there is no obsession. But whether one thinks for a few seconds about something or hours on end about it, the fact remains that thoughts arise and fall away instantly.

This does beg the question, 'who am i'. My thoughts often turn 180 degrees, some might say this is fickle, I would like to think that my thoughts vary on new information, but more importantly how balanced my mind is, I seem to be capable of seeing any point of view, while this makes me open minded, I feel it also makes me change direction continually.


It does not matter what the thoughts are and which direction it takes. For all of us, whether we are a farmer, a mechanic, a scientist, a businessman, a social worker or a politician, what we think in a day and how much it jumps from one object to another, the point is to understand the "thinking" itself and any of what conditions it from moment to moment, such as aversion, ignorance, conceit, attachment, jealousy, miserliness or kindness, compassion and so on. There is no point trying to analyse thoughts in order to find the answer since that would only be just more thoughts.

Being open minded is being open to other people's ideas. But if one does not understand thinking as just thinking, one just ends up taking seriously all the thoughts and this is not helpful at all.


I would very much like to hear your defination of a wholesome state


Unwholesome states are those that are rooted in ignorance alone or this with either attachment or aversion. Wholesome states are the opposite whose roots are wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion. A moment of generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, wisdom, sympathetic joy and faith are examples of wholesome states. Anger, lust, jealousy, miserliness, doubt, conceit, ill-will and wrong understanding are examples of the unwholesome.

In general, a wholesome state is characterized by calm whereas the unwholesome, by agitation. One is productive of good results and the other of bad.


If wisdom arises, this is in spite of the attachment and ignorance and not as a result of it. And wisdom will know this! If we get the impression that we have learnt something from past wrongs, this likely is an instance of attachment and not of wisdom.


now here we have a statement that defines my entire life, I have been quite personal in this reply, because this last line threatens to redefine everything. As an addict to most things throughout my life, I would like to think that I have learnt everything I know from all the wrong I have done in my life, without a need to erect barriers, I know that gambling bores me, the thought of other women bores me, pride and ego bore me, dinner parties bore me, big fast cars etc etc etc, I have always felt that my lifestyle has in some way contributed to the partial peace I feel today, not to be pulled by various things is a huge relief, not wanting to do various things is a huge relief, what you are saying is that I feel this way inspite of what I have done, not because of it, and that I am having difficulty squaring, I look forward to your reply Confusedji


What I am talking about is wisdom which understands the nature of the different phenomena that make up our lives, which include the ability to distinguish good states from bad states and how these and all other kinds of realities are fleeting, insubstantial and impersonal. Your experience on the other hand appears to refer to what can be said to be 'conditioned response' to situations. Your position could perhaps be said to be that of 'worldly wisdom', but is not something that is about understanding the reality "now".

Although I now see him as being quite misguided, there is something J. Krishnamurti said which has stayed with me for a long time. He said something to the effect that, "we can't learn from experience, but only from what is now". And there is also a Sufi saying with a similar message which I often recall; this is that, "one can't ride a camel which has gone and one which hasn't come, but only the one that is here".

Learning from the past involves value judgements and thinking in terms of situations. No attention is given to the mental state behind any intention to act now. This must then in fact be just more ignorance, with either attachment, conceit or view and can be seen as an act of avoidance. That is, in taking cues from past experiences, thinking about the present in terms of a situation, one avoids looking at what the reality is now.

The feeling of relief may be indication of the clinging involved. Yes I'd say that your good deeds now are in spite of the past bad ones. At the time the conditions were such that it was easy for bad deeds to arise and now the conditions have changed. And I'm sure that you will agree that things may have gone differently, for example, if you did not have the problem regarding your health. Besides there are countless examples of so called bad experiences leading to other kinds of wrong behaviours.

The truth is that it is never the case that good happens as a result of bad, so while those bad deeds not only will bring results in the future, they have also accumulated as tendency, thereby increasing the chance of future arising. The good now is due to the good accumulated from the past, read countless lives, and these accumulate as well.

Sometimes, in an attempt to explain what is going on but limited by the perception of the different incidents in one's life, a mistaken idea about cause and effect comes to be held. This is perversion of perception, of consciousness and of view all taking effect. To insist on it just adds to the problem.

This is somewhat rushed, and I have to end right here as my son has been waiting for quite some time to watch ‘Thor’ with me. :happysingh:
 

findingmyway

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SPNer
Amarsaria ji,
The eyes of your lion are smiling and show a kindness peacesign

I have several comments I would like to share

1) I believe it is for each person to decide whether their thoughts are appropriate or not and will result in action or not. You cannot know the inner workings of my mind and I cannot know yours so we cannot and should not judge each other or anyone else. These musings are for individuals themselves.

2) Having mind and body in perfect tune is hard but that it why it is a goal and all the worth more to work towards. I am very far from achieving this but I keep this aim in mind. Not all thoughts lead to actions in the short term but if some thoughts are continously entertained unchecked they can lead to an affect on personality and will impact on how you respond to another situation in the future. Those thoughts will also impact on how you interact with those around you, whether you are conscious of this or not. Saying thoughts are sinful is going too far but equally treating thoughts as harmless is also naive. Happy medium with the higher goal in mind is where we should all be headed within ourselves.

3) Gurbani is all about aspiring higher and working towards the ideal so the argument that minds will stray, it is human nature has never held water with me. That's no excuse for not changing. What's the point in life are we are not always trying to work towards the ideal? Then again I have always been very goal driven in all aspects of my life and love having something to work towards. Maybe that is just another aspect of an addictive personality lol
 
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