Ardaas Changed

[Inder singh]

This pauri does talk about history. Read it carefully. So let us not divert it to other side.

What about sikh history that records this event as initiation for a sikh.

 

[Randip Singh]

What type of analysis of authenticity we are seeking for the bani of our Guru.Religious scriptures are above academic analysis.

Nevertheless Dasam granth manuscripts were studied by sodhak committe in Amritsar around 1897. They gave their report finding them the bani of tenth master.

So apart from the link to the Sodak Commitee you have no actual thesis, books, with ISBN numbers that I can look at?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

The fact remains that Bhai gurdas ji's bani is accepted by khalsa panth to be read per sikh rehat maryada.

Message of Guru granth sahib relates to soul. Guru granth sahib will not have sikh history in it.

If some do not accept sikh rehat maryada then i have nothing to discuss further with such fellows.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

1.So now for you Bhai Gurdas ji's vaarans is BANI?

2. Did our Gurus call it BANI as you claim it to be?

Please give evidence rather than insulting our Gurus with your false assertions.

3.Why didn't our Gurus add his poetry to SGGS if it were a Bani?

4. Why a person like you who claims to be Amritdhari and yet believes and dwells in caste system like to degrade our Gurus by calling it Bani?

I am glad you used the word HERETIC on the other day and it shows here in your attitude and in false assertions.

Tejwant Singh

 

[AdsKhalsa]

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

1.So now for you Bhai Gurdas ji's vaarans is BANI?

2. Did our Gurus call it BANI as you claim it to be?

Please give evidence rather than insulting our Gurus with your false assertions.



Tejwant Singh

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa...
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Sorry to say but yes...that's baani of Gurdas Ji...not Gurbani.....I am not answering any question...but clarifying difference between Baani and Gurbani....

Baani of Sheikh Farid ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji...

Baani of Bhagat Kabir ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji....

Baani means sayings...whatever is said..uttered from mouth (Bol)....

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is our Guru...so whatever he said is respectful and that's his baani....

This is my thinking....and I would like Sangat to comment on this so that I should also learn....

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa...
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Sorry to say but yes...that's baani of Gurdas Ji...not Gurbani.....I am not answering any question...but clarifying difference between Baani and Gurbani....

Baani of Sheikh Farid ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji...

Baani of Bhagat Kabir ji is included in SGGS Ji, and now its Gurbani of SGGS Ji....

Baani means sayings...whatever is said..uttered from mouth (Bol)....

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is our Guru...so whatever he said is respectful and that's his baani....

This is my thinking....and I would like Sangat to comment on this so that I should also learn....

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........

Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact is that Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry is known as Varaans, not as Bani and it is not added by our Gurus in SGGS. So it is just poetry like any other.

Baani means sayings...whatever is said..uttered from mouth (Bol)....

I think you are confusing it with boli which also means regional language and bols, what is uttered from the mouth.

Tejwant Singh

 

[AdsKhalsa]

Adskhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact is that Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry is known as Varaans, not as Bani and it is not added by our Gurus in SGGS. So it is just poetry like any other.



I think you are confusing it with boli which also means regional language and bols, what is uttered from the mouth.

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

By bol I mean Sayings....not Boli...boli means punjabi..marathi, bengali, Dialects...here I mean whatever is said ...boli is different and bol is different...like many times we say that

Isde Bol cahngey nahi...in sanskrit they say ...Iski vaani acchi nahi...

means that his never say good words.......here we doesn't mean language ..but words....

Kabir Amrti Vaani......

"Baani Guru ..Guru Hai Baani'...here Guru Ji referred to Gurbani.......like many times Guru Ji said Raam...but he referred to Raam ..Allah..Waheguru ...Nirankar...not Raam Devta......and many times Guru Ji directly referred to Raam Devta.........

"Raam ..Rahim..Puran ..Kuran...Anek Kaheyn Mat Ek Na Manyo......." here Guru Ji referred to Raam Devta....not Raam nirankar...Waheguru............

I may be wrong...and a amateur learner......if I am wrong...please guide me and forgive me........

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...........

 

[Inder singh]

Tejwant ji

That is a slip on my part. I should have called it as vaaran. But the fact is that these are accepted by khalsa panth to be sung in kirtan from Gurdwaras.

Why do you disown these writings?

 

[GillAUS]

Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have been accorded a special place in Sikh religious literature.

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :VaarPauri:SearchGurbani.com

Obviously we know they are not Gurbani as they have not been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but to disown them on this ground would be dangerously over-zealous.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

JAISSEE MEH AWEH KHASAM KI BANI...TESSRRRA KAREEN GYAN VE LALO..IS
the testimony of Guru nanak ji Sahib and recorded in SGGS.
Khasam is AKAL PURAKH.
Akla Purakh's BANI "Came" to GURU NANAK JI SAHIB...( and there is No bol/mouth/tongue/etc involved HERE and Akal Puarkh si NOT SPEAKING..or talking..boli..or bols..or sayings whatever...)......and as this Khasam ki Bani ARRIVED..it BROUGHT FORTH GYAAN..Enlightenment..LIGHT of KNOWLEDGE..BRAHM GYAAN....which is Now RECORDED in SGGS for US to get enlightened.
GURU NANAK JI SAHIB received this KHASAM KI BANI....and so did the Succeeding GURUS...that is the REASON FOR THE NANAK CHHAAP !! nanak MOHR in their GURBANI recorded in SGGS.
NO NANAK CHHAAP..NO NANAK SIGNATURE.....automatically NOT GURBANI...NOT Khaksam Ki bani....

2. GURU NANAK JI SAHIB HIMSELF...selected various other Banis..from Bhagats Faroid Ji...and INCLUDED that as suitable. Guru Arjun Ji sahib also selected further Banis...of Sunder Ji, Bhatts, and Rabibis satt balwand ji for INCLUSION in SGGS.

3. GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..also SELECTED Gurbani written by Guur teg bahdur Ji UNDER the NANAK CHHAAP (MOHR) and included it in the SGGS that He recompiled and rewrote in entirety at Damdam Sahib Sabo Ki talwandi. Eminent Singhs like Baba DEEP SINGH SHAHEED made COPIES of this Damdami bir of SGGS and sent FOUR Copies to The Takhats. THIS COPY of the Damdmai bir was SOLELY and ONLY SGGS ALONE. NOTHING ELSE WAS ATTACHED OR BOUND TOGETHER WITH IT.

4. Guru Gobind Singh Ji Followed the NANAK TRADITION and ONLY included GURBANI that had the NANAK CHHAAP....in SGGS.

5. Bani GURU...GURU hai BANI...Khasam KI Bani... THE GURU is NANAK. PERIOD.The Bani that is GURU..also has the NANAK CHHAAP- MOHR. PERIOD.

6. Guru Gobind Singh ji is our Tenth Nanak..and He is father of the Khalsa..and He is the one who gave Gurgadee to SGGS...and BOWED to SGGS...ALONE and not attached to any other pothi/granth/natak granth etc.

7. LATER ON...some rather clever individuals came along..and second guessed the GURU...and began to ATTACH...other granths/pothis to the SGGS (PIGGY BACK/Back to back attachments).
A Dr. Gurinder Singh mann of UK has done his Masters research on these PIGGY BACK GRANTHS !!! Recently one such DOUBLE back to back Granth came to the fore. It was exposed by Rozana Spokesman Online......... The Special committee set up to Investigate this copy gave its report to the Akal takhat recently. It was discovered that this COPY was arrived at by DISMANTLING a BOUND copy of SGGS separating its Pannas, arranging aTatkara of the dsm granth to be placed right after the Original tatkara of the SGGS...and then REBINDING the SGGS and dsm Garnth in ONE VOLUME. The THREE SIDES of the huge granth were then TRIMMED by a commercial CUTTER and NEW designs painted on to the new edges. Thena New Beautiful BINDING was done. This granth is supposedly to be 100 years old, published by the Munshi Gulab lala Chand of Lahore Press and is featured in the GS Mann article below as well.
Read his reserach here:
A historical analysis of the combined recensions of the Guru Granth Sahib and the Sri Dasam Granth | Global Sikh News
Gurinder Singh Mann (UK) at Dasam Granth Sahib Seminar, Sacramento, Ca


Note: Please dont confuse this DR. Gurinder Singh Mann with the following person. This Highly respected Dr GS Mann is in California USA and maintains his website on books on Sikhism and various topics.

Religious Studies Department - University of California, Santa Barbara[/FONT]

 

[Inder singh]

People call the banis with which they are baptized as piggy back granth. May ia sk them what bani they read in their nitnem?

While saying this they do not take into account past sikh history. If aske drefrence they have nothing to submit.

 

[Inder singh]

People call the banis with which they are baptized as piggy back granth. May i ask them what bani they read in their nitnem?

While saying this they do not take into account past sikh history. If asked refrence they have nothing to submit.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have been accorded a special place in Sikh religious literature.

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :VaarPauri:SearchGurbani.com

Obviously we know they are not Gurbani as they have not been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but to disown them on this ground would be dangerously over-zealous.

Guru paoyario Jios,

DISOWNING..is a strong word...( I am not surprised however because this is so common to Indians/punjabi culture...daily i find Newspapers FULL of advertisements like...I, So and So..DISOWN my son..my daughter..my son in law..etc etc" and I am not responsible..blah blah. IN ALL my 60 years in malaysia and reading Newspapers from all over the WORLD..NEVER have I come across even ONE such disowning ad placed by any other person of any other country..only INDIANS DO it !! ??? why i dont know.)
Anyway I digress..sorry ji...

Just becasue anyone says that the HONORIFIC GURU-GURBANI..etc must not/cannot/should not...be applied to say Bhai Gurdass jis varraan, or Bhai Nana lala goyas swaiyahs, or others..is NOT DISOWNING THEM !!! Now adays it si so common to find so many GURUS..in Beas, in Sirs, in Jalnadhar..in..in..in..in..there are so many !! BUT for ME..the One and ONLY GURU is....SGGS. PERIOD.
For me..the ONLY GURBANI is that which MY GURU has...SGGS...GURBANI...PERIOD.
I RESPECT..I READ...I HONOUR..Nanad Lal goyas F{censored}e kabits, swaiyyahs, Bhai Gurdass jis varaan read daily.. the Nitnem banis I recite daily as the Panj Piaras ordered me to..
BUT the GURU I FOLLOW...the GURBANI that i use to DHAAL..fabricate my life..change my life..is GURBANI of my GURU...SGGS. Thats is the Original Khasam ki bani that came from Akal purakh through the House of NANAK and carries this Chhaapa Mohr STAMP of APPROVAL of NANAK. Period.

 

[Inder singh]

Sikhphilosophy has provided another link of sikh sangat for this thread

This following was quite interesting to know

Ardaas Changed In Finland Gurughar - The Voice of Sikh Youth


Did anyone realise that the addition of the names of 35 Bhagats is at the expense of 40 Mukte...yes they have removed the mentioning of 40 Mukte from the Ardas too...

Well thats what the notorious Sikh Missionary Colleges have been preaching since ages...that 40 Mukte never existed...and now this has been implemented by even more notorious missionaries (influenced by Inder Ghagga).....

What a Shame!

Interestingly they have adopted the Dohira which was proposed by SikhRi in their controverisal syllabus and for which they have been criticised in the panthic circles. All these organisations are hand in glove...their main aim is to disintegrate the fabric of Sikhi...

Though one part of me is totally disgusted at reading this news, the other part is happy that these people are self declared Guru Nindaks and self declared walk-outs from the panth...They can call themselves as Ghaggiyes, Kale Afghaniyes, Prof Darshaniyes, Missionariyes, Martin Lutheriyes or whatever, but they will not be called Sikhs from now on...

Gurdwara is a place where Guru's teachings are followed...The place in Finland has ceased to be called a Gurdwara...Efforts should be made to bring the Maharaj Saroop from there with full respec

 

[Inder singh]

ONLY GURBANI is that which MY GURU has...Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...GURBANI...PERIOD

Sikhs ahd ten gurus and they were equally important for sikhs. Composition of our gurus is called GURBANI whether contained in SGGS ji or not PERIOD

 

[Tejwant Singh]

GillAUS ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Bhai Gurdas's writings have long been considered to be the 'keys' to understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They have been accorded a special place in Sikh religious literature.

Keys are only needed when something has been locked with mulitple padlocks. That is not the case of SGGS. It is open to all, no exception. Hindu scriptures were under locks so only the highest caste could have access to them and read them.

Yes, it is said what you have mentioned but it makes no Gurmat sense rather it is anti Gurmat to even think like that SGGS needs keys to open. We Sikhs are very good sheep and we forget that Sikhi is the journey of the individual.

Pragmatism on which Guru Nanak founded Sikhi does not allow Gurbani to be padlocked. The concept of openmindedness was strengthened by Harmandir Sahib's design of having 4 doors.

So, there is no LOCK on SGGS, hence no KEY required to open it.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

but they will not be called Sikhs from now on...

There you go again pretending to play Ik Ong Kaar. What a shame! FYI, only Ik Ong Kaar knows that and decides that. You, I or anyone else will never find that out.

I am sorry to say that it is sheer arrogance on your part to say the least to act like that.

What a shame!

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Dassan GURUAN dee Jeondi Jagdee JYOT is SGGS.
SGGS occupies the Gurgadee of NANAK-GOBIND SINGH..and is thus GURU.
ONLY what the GURU forwards as KHASAM KI BANI is GURBANI..and thats exactly what SGGS Forwards.
NANAK CHHAAP MOHR...STAMP OF APPROVAL OF NANAK is PARAMOUNT..and ONLY SGGS has this MOHR. The MOHR STOPS at Mundawni mahalal panjavaan..and THANKSGIVING SLOK by Mahlaa panjavaan.

That is also why Guru Ji called AAD GRANTH....the GRANTH of the AAD GURU...Nanak-Gobind Singh...bestowed Gurgadee ayt naded in 1708.

 

[GillAUS]

I don't think that by calling Bhai Gurdas's writings the key to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is literally locked and inaccessible.

They are there to aid the understanding of the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. History says that even Guru Arjan Dev ji referred to Bhai Gurdas's writings as being a 'key'.

On another note, I don't think our Finnish compatriots will be fond of the recital of such kirtan at their Gurdwaras:

Dasam Bani Kirtan (Sada Jai Bhagauti): Bhai Balbir Singh Ji performs kirtan from the bani of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib clip on Ovi by Nokia

Sada Jai Bhagauti!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

YES...the VEDS were LOCKED..and the KEY was kept securely in the Brahmins hands (under LOCK and KEY ) Any one else..even hearing/speaking/listening....to the Vedas was punished by having MOLTEN LEAD poured into his Mouth, ears,.....

These people deviously tried to "LOCK" the SGGS..and then self provide the "Key" in Varaan they knew could be ADULTERATED and misconstrued...by their agents.. IF one has "locked" and has the KEY..one cna do anything..keep changing the "key"...keep losing it..keep finding new ones...( REMEMBER the 41st Vaar by another IMPOSTER added to this supposedly KEY !!! THAT VAAR really lets the HUGE BLACK CAT out of the Bag !!!)
BUT the GURU JI was wise..and never LOCKED the SGGS..declared it to be PIO DADDEH DA KHOL DITTAH KHAZANAH..OPEN and in PLAIN VIEW FOR all time....thus THWARTING these "key" thieves at their own game...of what use is a key to a lock that is NOT there ??

 

[Inder singh]

For these people whole sikh literature is adulterated. Sikh history is aduleterated. They say there were no chali muktas. These people claim to follow Sikh rehat maryada but they are the ones to flout that.

Why do not they start their own sect?