Aim Of Debasing Oneself In Gurbani

[Archived_member14]

JimRinX,

I'm a Westerner and, though I list myself as Mahayana Budhist (and my answer will reflect that!), I'm really more of a 'Pan-Religionist' - so I think some references from other beliefs will be the best response; as Sikhism, it would seem to me, is a perfect - or near perfect - Belief, because it seems to encompase ALL of the Kernels Of Truth that most other Beliefs only teach some of.
Thus: I think reading (or re-reading) Lao Tsu would help you find the answer you seek; just as it would also help you to remember that this is a Samsara Realm - one where the ordinary temptations of Maya are part of the 'curriculum'; the 'study course' of Life itself, by which we are able, through action and interaction with the temptations and challenges of ordinary existence, achieve the Higher State (Nirvana) of Consciousness that we MUST achieve to be accepted, and thus to stay in Shambala (or; to be released from the cycle of death and rebirth).

I don’t know what pan-religionist is, but after reading your first sentence, the idea of “khoa pad ruam mitr” or ‘fried rice with assorted meats’ cropped into my mind. This was once a popular dish served in Thailand which I never really enjoyed since it had beside egg, pork, chicken, cuttlefish, prawn and crab meat and I could never really get a good taste of any of these meats. And as I read on, “Radha Soami” also came to mind, and this is something I’ve always felt aversion towards.

Lao Tzu, I used to like once and even had five different versions of Tao Te Ching. But this was when I was strongly attracted to Mahayana Buddhism as you are, but before I finally settled on the Theravada tradition. Now I don’t read anything else and disagree with the basic positions of all other religions. I’m particularly critical of Mahayana Buddhism, but more off-putting is the tendency to take ideas from this and that religion and trying to create some sort of amalgam. Or having some vague idea about “enlightenment”, projecting this and claiming then that all “paths lead to the same goal”. Or those who after studying the various religions, conclude that different religions are aimed at different levels in the ‘spectrum of consciousness’, and create all sorts of new theories in the process and as consequence.

JimRinX, you may or may not like to discuss any of this. But if you do, then I suggest that we start a new thread in the Interfaith Dialogues section.

 

[JimRinX]

Whoa there, Confused ji!
You asked about the purpose of "debasing oneself", and I gave you my answer; along with some background info, so that you would know where my own points of view come from.
I recommended that you seek the answer wherever you find it - even if that source is not the venerable Guru Granth Sahib.
I take part in this forum out of my profound respect for Sikhism; and you yourself (I think) just identified yourself as a Theravada Buddhist.
I'm Mahayana because I've had an experience that proved to me that the Clear Light and Formeless Realm are very, very real; and I've read more than one Therevada Masters Writings, in which they deny this - saying the Clear Light is "Atman", and the Buddha said No Atman
Really, just like the Sikhi, Buddha was just saying no CASTE; which, in traditional Hinduism, is an integral part of "Atman" - but, if there was No Clear Light, what part of us 'goes on' from one Incarnation to another? What was the mysterious thing that came into the Jedda Grove, filing the air with POWER, when the Buddha sat teaching? A Clear Light Diety Entity - that's what! Our Beautiful LORD, that's what! So, you see, I'm not so far off the Sikhi Path; as I agree with them, and wish to Honor Them for being so wonderful!
Now I AM off the theme of this Thread; and someday, time permiting (it's not), I will start that Interfaith Dialog - these comments, as I indicated, were aimed at answering what self-abasement is for.
If you'd like to know more about why I think I should have such opinions - or why anyone should care; then read my Introducing Myself and/or Bio Entry. I had a Very Special Blessing bestowed upon me; and I'm working to seal the 'schism' between the Theravada and Mahayana Communties - as I kind of promised you-know-who that I'd try to do things like that.
Peace!

 

[spnadmin]

IMHO there is no problem in clarifying one's starting points and assumptions in a discussion that contains some subtle and some difficult concepts. So long as the thread does not morph into a discussion of Buddhism things should go well.

 

[Archived_member14]

JimRinX,

Now I AM off the theme of this Thread; and someday, time permiting (it's not), I will start that Interfaith Dialog - these comments, as I indicated, were aimed at answering what self-abasement is for.
If you'd like to know more about why I think I should have such opinions - or why anyone should care; then read my Introducing Myself and/or Bio Entry. I had a Very Special Blessing bestowed upon me; and I'm working to seal the 'schism' between the Theravada and Mahayana Communties - as I kind of promised you-know-who that I'd try to do things like that.
Peace!

Thanks for directing me to your bio.
As it is likely that any discussion between us is going to end up being all about Buddhism, I think it a good idea not to start the discussion I had suggested we do.

 

[spnadmin]

Confused ji

You could have this discussion in Interfaith dialogs under Buddhism without any problem. The rest of us might learn something about differences within Buddhism. I know I would.

 

[Archived_member14]

Spnadmin ji,

Confused ji

You could have this discussion in Interfaith dialogs under Buddhism without any problem. The rest of us might learn something about differences within Buddhism. I know I would.

This was only one of the reasons. From reading JimRinX’s bio I got the impression that the difference in the understanding is so great that more bad than good would come out of any discussion between us. Besides, on one hand is someone who considers himself to be having only a kindergarten level of understanding and interested only in mundane, moment to moment experiences, whereas on the other hand, is someone who thinks he has had direct experience and deep understanding of something out of the ordinary.

I find the Mahayana to be reflection of the individual’s inability to grasp and therefore accept the concept of Anatta. And I don’t think there is any use in having any so called, Mahayana - Theravada dialogue since this would complicate things even more, also for outsiders. My interest in the Dhamma is based on the fact of it being about very ordinary day to day experiences, verifiable as per the level of understanding. I would not go by the label of Buddhism, preferring to just talk about the ‘truth’ if it wasn’t for the fact that I couldn’t have arrived at the understanding on my own and being so feeble at that. Moreover as you may know by now, I disagree with 99% of what is out there as representative of Theravada as well, which I consider also as due to failure at understanding Anatta.

So who would then really believe me to be representing the Buddha’s true teachings in any such dialogue, given that whatever the Buddha taught must in fact be read in the light of this understanding about Anatta and conditionality. And if someone is interested only to think and philosophize about such things, this I don’t want to encourage either.....

 

[spnadmin]

Confused ji

Your insights are very helpful. So then we can stay on the topic of this thread...and if the need arises later to clarify any concepts from Buddhism there is a space in the forum to do that.

 

[jsdhalle]

Ishna Ji & all other contributors,

I would like to put down some little words of mine into the discussion, connecting a few more wires in here: Why do we touch the feet of our elders? Why do we bow down in front of Guru Granth Sahib? What is the Psycho analysis here? As being follower of Sikhism-The most modern and well understood religion of the World, I interpret these words as follows; When a person bows down in front of another person, it is a symbol of surrendering one's self to the elder person or in front of whom we bow. By doing this, the level of thinking or what we call 'ego', comes down (Internally or psychologically). When this happens, transfer of the elder's views and blessings takes place towards the person who bows down. And when the young ones don't bow down, it is treated as bad manners. Why? Because it shows that the young one is not ready to surrender his ego in front of the elder and thus the flow of information does not take place. Bowing down is also a sign of defeat as in wars etc. Defeat of what? It's actually the EGO!
Now in our case, we are talking about Debasing ourself in front of the Almighty Waheguru. The above mentioned example can be co-related to this instance wherein we as the younger one have to lower our egoes and surrender in front of Waheguru so that whatever He tries to teach/tell us, is understood by us. It's all the same as bowing down while going in front of the Guru Sahib. These words were meant to bring the mental level of the reader of the verses to a lower level than that of the Guru Sahib, so that he can understand what Guru Granth Sahib wants to Teach/Inspire him of. This is definitely not applicable to other worldly matters or people around you (At the same time not being too egoistic or nassicst). So we do not need to be afraid thinking that our self esteem gets hampered or we get easily hurt when we lower our self esteem in front of the Super Natural.

And Ultimately speaking, ones you lower youself and UNDERSTAND what Guru Sahib wants to teach you, you will automatically get the answer of your own question.

Gur Fateh!

 

[findingmyway]

This is my understanding of the shabad.

Guru Granth Sahib Page 543
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥

ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Bihāgaṛā mėhlā 5.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੂਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Kar kirpā gur pārbarahm pūre an▫ḏin nām vakẖāṇā rām.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਉਚਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Amriṯ baṇī ucẖrā har jas miṯẖā lāgai ṯerā bẖāṇā rām.

ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕੋਇ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨਾ ॥
Kar ḏa▫i▫ā ma▫i▫ā gopāl gobinḏ ko▫e nāhī ṯujẖ binā.

ਸਮਰਥ ਅਗਥ ਅਪਾਰ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੀਉ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਾ ॥
Samrath agath apār pūran jī▫o ṯan ḏẖan ṯumĥ manā.

ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਅਨਾਥ ਚੰਚਲ ਬਲਹੀਨ ਨੀਚ ਅਜਾਣਾ ॥
Mūrakẖ mugaḏẖ anāth cẖancẖal balhīn nīcẖ ajāṇā.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥੧॥
Binvanṯ Nānak saraṇ ṯerī rakẖ leho āvaṇ jāṇā. ||1||

The shabad starts by praising Ik Oankar and asking for blessings so that I may always remember You and act according to your will. I sing songs of your greatness and think your will sweet. O Waheguru have compassion on me, pity me as without Your support, I have no-one. O indescribable, limitless, boundless lord of everything, you have given me this life, this body and soul. Prays Nanak, I am very foolish, destitute, weak, lowly, restless and immature without you and seek your shelter to escape rebirth.

ਸਾਧਹ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹ ਹਰਿ ਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Sāḏẖah sarṇī pā▫ī▫ai har jī▫o guṇ gāvah har nīṯā rām.

ਧੂਰਿ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਗਉ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Ḏẖūr bẖagṯan kī man ṯan laga▫o har jī▫o sabẖ paṯiṯ punīṯā rām.

ਪਤਿਤਾ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ਹੋਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਾਤਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Paṯiṯā punīṯā hohi ṯinĥ sang jinĥ biḏẖāṯā pā▫i▫ā.

ਨਾਮ ਰਾਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤੇ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਚੜਹਿ ਸਵਾਇਆ ॥
Nām rāṯe jī▫a ḏāṯe niṯ ḏėh cẖaṛėh savā▫i▫ā.

ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਜੀਤਾ ॥
Riḏẖ siḏẖ nav niḏẖ har jap jinī āṯam jīṯā.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵਡਭਾਗਿ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਾਜਨ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੨॥
Binvanṯ Nānak vadbẖāg pā▫ī▫ah sāḏẖ sājan mīṯā. ||2||

In the company of Gurmukhs, Parmesar (God) is found so we can always sing your praises (and live as Gurmukhs too). I hope that the teachings of your devotees become enshrined in my mind and body as this can make even the fallen pure. By staying in the company of those who have found God, the immoral become spiritually alive. Those who are coloured with naam become worthy of receiving Her gifts, which keep on increasing. Those who live by the word of Gurbani and incorporate into their entire being, receive miraculous strength (inner strength like the shaheeds had to withstand torture) and treasures (spiritual treasures). Nanak prays as Gurmukh friends are only met with luck

ਜਿਨੀ ਸਚੁ ਵਣੰਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Jinī sacẖ vaṇanji▫ā har jī▫o se pūre sāhā rām.

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਖਜਾਨਾ ਤਿੰਨ ਪਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
Bahuṯ kẖajānā ṯinn pėh har jī▫o har kīrṯan lāhā rām.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਨ ਲੋਭੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤਿਆ ॥
Kām kroḏẖ na lobẖ bi▫āpai jo jan parabẖ si▫o rāṯi▫ā.

ਏਕੁ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਤਿਆ ॥
Ėk jānėh ek mānėh rām kai rang māṯi▫ā.

ਲਗਿ ਸੰਤ ਚਰਣੀ ਪੜੇ ਸਰਣੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਿਨਾ ਓਮਾਹਾ ॥
Lag sanṯ cẖarṇī paṛe sarṇī man ṯinā omāhā.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਲੈ ਸੇਈ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
Binvanṯ Nānak jin nām palai se▫ī sacẖe sāhā. ||3||

Those who are always connected to Ik Oankar, the the truth are the bankers of full stores of naam, benefiting from singing Her praises. Those who are connected to Ik Oankaar are not affected by lust, anger or greed. Nor can anyone subject them to their own will by force as they are only in a close relationship with Waheguru and accept no other. They remain absorbed in the love of Waheguru. Ik Oankar is their support and they have a need to connect with Her. Nanak prays that whoever comes close to the naam should always remain a good banker.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
Nānak so▫ī simrī▫ai har jī▫o jā kī kal ḏẖārī rām.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ॥
Gurmukẖ manhu na vīsrai har jī▫o karṯā purakẖ murārī rām.

ਦੂਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
Ḏūkẖ rog na bẖa▫o bi▫āpai jinĥī har har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā.

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਰੇ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Sanṯ parsāḏ ṯare bẖavjal pūrab likẖi▫ā pā▫i▫ā.

ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ ਮਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਆਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥
vajī vaḏẖā▫ī man sāʼnṯ ā▫ī mili▫ā purakẖ apārī.

ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਇਛ ਪੁੰਨੀ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Binvanṯ Nānak simar har har icẖẖ punnī hamārī. ||4||3||

Nanak says that we should always be following the one by whose creation we are surrounded. We must never let the omnipresent Lord slip from our mind. One who is successful in this will not be stressed out by illness, sadness or fear. They have the Guru's help and blessing to cross the world ocean (difficult life). They have their good deeds from their lifetime written on their foreheads. They are infused with Chardi Kala and their minds are at peace, they have found the limitless God. Nanak prays that his wish to connect with Ik Oankar will also be granted by following and singing the naam


To summarise, the 1st pauri talks about why we need Ik Oankaar's support. Our mind is lowly etc as it is filled with lust, anger and greed-thats why. The 2nd pauri explains how to remedy this. The 3rd pauri details the rewards and the 4th pauri reminds us of the best way to live

Let's have some chardi kala ice cream courtesy of Mai ji icecreamkudi