Action Against Those Honoring Ragi Likely

Tejwant Singh · Feb 8, 2010

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

We missed your absence here.

You write:

Narayanjot Kaur Ji

I think Tejwant Ji (for whom I have high regard) is alluding to my earlier comments in response to Lee Ji’s posts – perhaps being too polite to aim them at me directly for which I feel truly humbled.

I am sorry to say that you are totally incorrect in your above conclusion how reasonable you may think it is and Narayanjot ji is right.

I have been writing about the naughty misdeeds of the Akal Takhat Jathedars, SGPC and the Political involvements by the Politicos of Punjab in the Sikhi affairs long before you started posting your insightful essays here.

In fact, some years ago I wrote how this SRM needs to be changed and the little article can be found in this forum.

Perhaps I do not understand my Sikh ideals and perhaps I may also be naïve (after all I am only a seeker, a learner, and can boast no claims).

We as Sikhs, learners, seekers are in the same boat and naivete is part of being a student, then only one can learn what one does not know. So, you are not alone.

it is up to the Guru and the Lord to judge me

Well, I look at this in a different way. The ONE who is Nirbhau, Nirvair can not be judgmental. Judgments mean punishment or rewards, guilty or innocent. There is no grey area, no room left for improvement when one has done something wrong.

Many religions including the 3 Semitic ones are based on the above concept. All religions that proclaim Hell, Heaven and also claim the certainty of which reincarnation the person is going to come in his/her next birth believe in God to be just, hence judgmental.

Ik Ong Kaar is the instiller of goodness, motivator, who picks us up when we are fallen rather than kicking us while down, hugs us when we make a mistake or two and encourages us to do it better the next time, rather than smacking us.

In other words, HE is the true Father.

Gurbani is full of verses stating all this and much more than what I have mentioned here.

However, I feel no guilt or shame in advocating restraint and caution to avoid inflating matters. Is that such a bad thing?

No one should feel any guilt or shame expressing one's opinion and it is a very good thing but one should explain what kind of restraint can the powerful and the powerless use? Who has the restraining power?

After all we find ourselves in this mess because of those people (current and ex Jathedars, preachers, politicians – in general, I mean no one in particular) who claim to boast high ideals and preach these to the world.

I totally agree with you and thanks for proving my point which I have often mentioned in my posts about the people in power who have been abusing it.

I would like to know if you wrote any essay or discussed, shared your opinion in any forum when you discovered that one of the Jathedars in power is a bigamist. What is your opinion about bigamy in Sikhi especially by the ones who hold the power. If you have, please share that with us.

Have you given your opinion or shared your thoughts about any Hukumnaamas and ex-communications which in your Gurmat thinking were unjustified and offered any kind of solutions? If you have, please share with us because your insights are very important and carry a lot of weight from which others like myself have learnt a lot.

I think in these difficult times let us not lose our heads and accuse each other of naivety.

As I mentioned above, naivete can not be an accusation but part and parcel of being a Sikh, a student, a learner, a seeker. We are all naive in that aspect and thanks to the SGGS, our only Guru we are not ashamed of claiming that because we know we have the tools in our hands.

Everyone has a right to an opinion and provided it is not an outrageous or libelous one, we must respect it –

Once again, I agree with you. And this forum is the best place just to express that. Disagreements are also part and parcel of Sikhi and a very important learning process which should also be respected for the sake of learning which is the requirement of a Sikh, a student.

although I am aware my approach may not go too well with the administrators – but I am not seeking approval or popular vote and only making my point of view in a small way.

Arshi ji,

I am also one of the members of this forum like yourself, not any part of the administration. The administration of this forum is the most accepting which in my opinion is based on Sikhi ideals than any other Sikhi forum on the internet. This administration does not need any defence from me but its daily actions speak for themselves. I do not think you have been given any warning by them by saying anything that is against the terms of this forum.

The case in point is in many discussions going on now by the member kee_jaana_mein_kaun who has been warned many times about his posts but he has not been banned.

Ausdesi, who is a Hindu, his posts are also taken in stride no matter if some disagree with him.

So, I am a bit puzzled with your inference about this fair and balanced administration:
"although I am aware my approach may not go too well with the administrators – but I am not seeking approval or popular vote. "

As to the current issue only time will tell but I feel confident good reason will prevail (call it naïve or whatever) in the end and the advocates of radical action to divide the Panth may have to wait another day.

Arshi ji,

Can you please elaborate the above in more layman's terms? What do you mean by "good reason will prevail "?

Were there any good reasons for the many Hukumnaamas and ex-communications issued in the past and how were they resolved in a reasonable manner or were they? Or these actions were radical and just one sided?

Please name the people who were issued the above and the resolutions which were helped by reason and restraint.

I pray, for the sake of sikhi, I am right on this one. Let us have some support for moderation and restraint and help in assuaging hurt feelings - taking the Bhai Kanhayia appproach occaisonaly cannot hurt.

Also, please elaborate the above. Moderation and restraint by whom? Only the ones in power can do that. The powerless have no voice, no power.

The past Hukumnaamas and ex-communications are the living proofs.

The fact is that Lamba sent the doctored tape to Akal Takhat.

Where was the reason and restraint from the honchos of the Takhat to check its varacity and when they were offered the full dvd, they refused to accept it as evidence?

Lamba even wrote the Hukumnaama on a fake letterhead to call Prof. Sahib to the Akal Takhat the first time on his own.

Do you think this was the right and the truthful way to do things?

My last point which is taken from your response to Lee ji.

In my opinion an open meeting would have led to certain bloodshed as the sentiments run amok–

It is the responsibility of those who are in power and have invited the "culprit" to their " throne" to make sure that there is enough security that no bloodshed occurs because Sikhi demands transparency.

Lastly, I apologise if my comments hurt you in any way or form by making you conclude that they were directed to you, which they were not.

I enjoy your insightful essays and learn a lot from them and waiting for you to post some more.

Thanks & regards.

Tejwant Singh

Ghostface Killah · Feb 8, 2010

What i find funny is both sides are saying each is being supported by "Anti Panthic" forces. How stupid does a community have to be to even have Badal in power lol

- Ghostface Killah

arshi · Feb 8, 2010

I have said before that my love for the destination is far greater than my love for the path, and that too much love of teh path will end in problems.

Lee Ji, beautiful sentiments and very well expressed. Life is short (what is remaining of it) and the spirtual journery rather long. It is easy to get distracted. I too try and keep out of politics, apart from an opinion here and other. I am much happier writing articles, composing new dhuns and performing kirtan in my spare time.

Keep focused on the lotus feet of the Guru.

Arshi

arshi · Feb 10, 2010

Tejwant Singh Ji

Gurfateh

Quite a long post and I am afraid mine will be even longer, out of necessity, to allow me to respond to the many points raised by you. Although, I can ill afford the time, coming back to a backlog of work, the issues you have raised are so interesting I just could not resist.

We missed your absence here.

I am touched – for a Gursikh of your calibre to say this is, indeed, a humbling experience – and I mean it. I know there is a lot of false humility today but in my later years I feel I must come to terms with my own spirituality before judging others, especially in the light of the research and reading I have had to undertake in writing the articles on the five negative traits in human nature.

Tejwant Ji, although I am back I have to contend with a lot of backlog and, therefore, may not be as active on the forum as I would like to be. Please forgive me if I cannot always respond to your observations immediately.

I do stand corrected on the assumption re: your comments alluding to my earlier post to Lee Ji. But, you can always question my views where they are vague – after all we are brothers - sons of the same father Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

I have been writing about the naughty misdeeds of the Akal Takhat Jathedars, SGPC and the Political involvements by the Politicos of ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st=" border=" 0="" alt="">Punjab in the Sikhi affairs long before you started posting your insightful essays here.

In fact, some years ago I wrote how this SRM needs to be changed and the little article can be found in this forum.

Tejwant Ji, let me make it very clear at the outset that I am not politically orientated or motivated and that your knowledge of Jathedars’ misdemeanors (naughty misdeeds as you put it) and political movements in <st1

lace w:st="on">Punjab is far superior to mine. I am more aligned to the spiritual quest – as Lee Ji succintly put it “that my love for the destination is far greater than my love for the path”and also as I earlier confessed to Narayanjot Kaur Ji, that, at 68, time is running out for me and I must prepare myself to meet my Lord (I pray and hope Guru Ji will by my ‘shepherd’ and He will give me refuge at his lotus feet)

We as Sikhs, learners, seekers are in the same boat and naivete is part of being a student, then only one can learn what one does not know. So, you are not alone.

I totally agree.

Well, I look at this in a different way. The ONE who is Nirbhau, Nirvair can not be judgmental. Judgments mean punishment or rewards, guilty or innocent. There is no grey area, no room left for improvement when one has done something wrong.

I think we all have our own take on the meaning of some words – e.g. judgmental – the term appears to have strong negative connotations, I agree. Is it always bad to be judgmental? Does being critical also imply being judgmental? I am only thinking aloud and not implying anything. What did Bhagat Kabir mean when he said?

Dharam raa-ay jab laykhaa maagai ki-aa mukh lai kai jaahigaa.

When the Righteous Judge of Dharma calls for your account, what face will you show Him then? (SGGS 1106)

And Guru Nanak said:

Karmee kamree hoey vichaar.

By our deeds and actions we shall be judged.

Please forgive me for only quoting one-liners as this post is already getting long, but these are well known panktis. I think this would be a great topic for a separate essay/discussion and we cannot do justice to it by making comments in passing – perhaps leave it to another day.

I do not believe God metes out punishment as we see it. We are responsible for our own actions and reap what be sow (Japji Sahib Pauri 20).

Many religions including the 3 Semitic ones are based on the above concept. All religions that proclaim Hell, Heaven and also claim the certainty of which reincarnation the person is going to come in his/her next birth believe in God to be just, hence judgmental.

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I remember, vaguely, reading your dialogue with Satyaben Ji sometimes ago and much of what you wrote then made sense. Again, there is a lot to discuss and debate here. I am struggling just to understand the teachings of the Sikh Gurus, and there is little time left to explore other faiths.

Ik Ong Kaar is the instiller of goodness, motivator, who picks us up when we are fallen rather than kicking us while down, hugs us when we make a mistake or two and encourages us to do it better the next time, rather than smacking us.

In other words, HE is the true Father.

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Couldn’t agree more with you.

jaisaa baalak bhaa-ay subhaa-ee lakh apraadh kamaavai.
kar updays jhirhkay baho bhaatee bahurh pitaa gal laavai.

A child, in innocence and naivety, makes numerous mistakes. His father would many times, admonish him and instruct him, but will still hug him close in his embrace (SGGS 624).

I would like to know if you wrote any essay or discussed, shared your opinion in any forum when you discovered that one of the Jathedars in power is a bigamist.

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No, I haven’t ji. I have read about the bigamist Jathedar. I am afraid I cannot form an opinion without knowing the full facts. /FONT]

What is your opinion about bigamy in Sikhi especially by the ones who hold the power. If you have, please share that with us.

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Bigamy is illegal as per our man-made laws (excluding Islamic Law). It is, I think, against the Sikhi Sidhant as it would normally be driven by lust. Can it be justified under exceptional circumstances, e.g. childless marriage, need for a waaris to carry the family name forward? Many would point out that some Sikh Gurus had more than one mehal. However, during Sikh weddings we emphasis Guru Amar Das Ji’s teachings that a true marriage is a fusion of two souls – ‘two bodies one soul phenomenon’. Again, this is a huge topic in it self.

Have you given your opinion or shared your thoughts about any Hukumnaamas and ex-communications which in your Gurmat thinking were unjustified and offered any kind of solutions? If you have, please share with us because your insights are very important and carry a lot of weight from which others like myself have learnt a lot.

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My approach and views expressed above are more in the philosophical vein rather than a political one. I admit that Akal Takht cannot please all the people all the time, even when good honest people are at the helm but we must review the procedure of these appointments and ensure they are not politically motivated. How we do that? I do not know, but I accept there is no smoke without fire and the current regime has a lot to answer for and must sort itself out. However, many argue that there is a tendency amongst people to accept the Hukamnamas that suit them and reject the others (I am not referring to the one relevant to Prof Sahib)

As I mentioned above, naivete can not be an accusation but part and parcel of being a Sikh, a student, a learner, a seeker. We are all naive in that aspect and thanks to the SGGS, our only Guru we are not ashamed of claiming that because we know we have the tools in our hands.

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Again. I agree – this is the real essence of humility.

Arshi ji,

I am also one of the members of this forum like yourself, not any part of the administration. The administration of this forum is the most accepting which in my opinion is based on Sikhi ideals than any other Sikhi forum on the internet.

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I did not imply you were part of the administration and the comments were definitely not aimed at you. It was only a general observation and not a criticism of any one in particular.

So, I am a bit puzzled with your inference about this fair and balanced administration.

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There was no inference about the administration not being fair-minded. To the contrary both Narayanjot Kaur Ji and Aman Singh Ji have been nothing but kind to me and have always shown their appreciation for my humble efforts. I may not always agree with their views but I respect them. Occasionally I may wish to ask them to consider their views on a certain issue, with appropriate and constructive persuasion, as they are open-minded individuals. I may even request them, occasionally, not to lean too much towards one side of an argument and shoot down the other party – although I must add that they are very even handed and allow a lot of latitude to members to express their views, which is sometimes abused. The job of a moderator is certainly not an easy one.

“As to the current issue only time will tell but I feel confident good reason will prevail (call it naïve or whatever) in the end and the advocates of radical action to divide the Panth may have to wait another day.” you wrote:

Arshi ji,[/quote]

Can you please elaborate the above in more layman's terms? What do you mean by "good reason will prevail "?

Were there any good reasons for the many Hukumnaamas and ex-communications issued in the past and how were they resolved in a reasonable manner or were they? Or these actions were radical and just one sided?

I have already commented on Hukamnamas above. I am not going to choose sides on the current Hukamnama against Prof Ji without knowing more about the issues and allow the ‘warring’ sides more time to resolve their differences. My comments were made in good faith for the wellbeing of the Panth based on the belief that Guru Ji will intervene through well meaning agencies to reopen the dialogue and set up a plan to review the issues which are dividing the Panth – call it wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened. Please do not read too much into my comments, which are made with a clear conscious and without leaning to one side or the other.

Also, please elaborate the above. Moderation and restraint by whom? Only the ones in power can do that. The powerless have no voice, no power.[/quote] [/FONT][/I]

]Strange comment ji, as if there is a military dictatorship and a curfew. Surely we are all brothers and there must be ways and means of influencing each other. I don’t believe Ragi Ji is powerless and has no voice. He has thousands of well-wishers, me included. I feel confident something will transpire, it has to, for the sake of our wonderful faith – you may if you wish call this as wishful thinking – I will understand. [/FONT]

The fact is that Lamba sent the doctored tape to Akal Takhat.

[/FONT][/I]

Where was the reason and restraint from the honchos of the Takhat to check its varacity and when they were offered the full dvd, they refused to accept it as evidence?

Lamba even wrote the Hukumnaama on a fake letterhead to call Prof. Sahib to the Akal Takhat the first time on his own.

[/FONT][/I]

I confess I do not know Mr Lamba at all and do not visit his site (accept when referenced here). If what you claim is right (and I do not doubt your sincerity’), of course it is wrong, in fact fraudulent. It occurs in commercial organisatons, but human nature as it is it spares no one.

In my opinion an open meeting would have led to certain bloodshed as the sentiments run amok–

It is the responsibility of those who are in power and have invited the "culprit" to their " throne" to make sure that there is enough security that no bloodshed occurs because Sikhi demands transparency.

Only yesterday in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1

lace w:st="on">London</st1:city>, I ran into the current MD and his deputy and a past MD. The past MD, who was only visiting, saw me, from a distance, and as it is his nature, jokingly quipped “Where is your dagger?” To which I replied, in humour, “Don’t worry, I am a fully subscribed member of the Sikh Fraternity and know exactly where to lay my hands on when needed, you are warned.” Everyone laughed and the deputy MD said “Rajinder, only yesterday I saw a Sikh judge dressed very much like you (referring to the suit, the tie and the Kenyan style turban) and he spoke just like you with the same humility and accent”. “Of course, I said you are referring to Sir Mota Singh, who has been recently knighted, and I am proud to say I know him personally and our families have known each other since the Kenyan days.”
/FONT]

It made me proud to be a Sikh, I must confess, not that I doubt Sikhi at any time. All these comments came as a result of Sir Mota Singh’s support for the right of amritdhari Sikhs to wear the kirpan in schools, in the work place and public places where they may be restrictions. Now just imagine if Sikhs were seen on the TV knocking off each others turban and wielding swords, this would weaken our case and affect a lot of Sikhs, in particular amritdhari Sikhs. With the media as it is news travel fast. This would do immense damage to our interests. In view of the comments you have made regarding the inefficiency of those in control and power, could we afford to take the risk. It is one thing accusing each other within the family (internal squabbles) but when we make an exhibition of ourselves on the world scene it harms the whole Sikh Nation and takes us back years in terms of progress and promoting our beliefs.

On a personal note, as I have said before, I have high regard for you and, in particular, admire your straightforwardness and candid manner, which is much lacking these days. You have been very kind and supportive of my writings. I am more comfortable writing on spirituality and doing kirtan, whenever the opportunity arises, in my spare time. Please do take my comments as made in all honesty and not as a direct criticism of you or your views, and as you sometimes say, I am only thinking aloud and not making any dogmatic inferences. I often do say things off guard in the comfort I am amongst brothers and sisters, one big family of Dasam Pita Guru Gobind Singh Ji. /FONT]

Please forgive me for any errors or incorrect interpretation of your comments. Please do not feel obliged to respond in detail as I have only tried to clarify your points on request. If I do not respond quickly, it will not be due to lack of will or courtesy but because of time constraints. Hope I have not given any offence. If inadvertently, I have, please accept my apologies in advance.

Kind regards,

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Tejwant Singh · Feb 10, 2010

Arshi ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for the heartfelt response. I do appreciate it.

I would just like to add a couple of points.

As you mentioned and I agree with you that what Mr. Lamba did was fraudulent and then the Jathedars did not allow themselves to seek the truth which is the cornerstone of Sikhi and this incident went so far to ex-communicate the ex jathedar who spent sometime behind bars after the holocaust of 1984 when he spoke against the wrongdoings of the government.

Now people are being threatened by the Badal gestapo Police that their houses will be burnt down to ashes if they invited Prof. Sahib to their houses for Keertan or any other gatherings and this is not a rumour but a factual thing. The latest one happened in Jallander yesterday.

This is the net result of this ex-communication.

My approach and views expressed above are more in the philosophical vein rather than a political one.

Arshi ji,

We, as Sikhs live the life of Miri-Piri started by Guru Nanak with the concept of a householder, meaning dealing politically with the relatives and the neighbours. In other words not running away from any problems that a person is faced with while living a truthful life based on Gurmat ideals.

How spiritually one may be trying to live one's own life, but one can not escape from what life offers us, that is the reason that you were inclined to offer your opinion about the subject.

Guru Amardas explains it beautifully in Anand Sahib:

Khaneiyoh tikhi, valon niki, etehei marg javanah.

Life of a Sikh is not just one high wire event but it is a way of life of a Sikh.

As the high wire walker has the safety net underneath knowing that if he/she falls, it would not be the end, the same way a Sikh knows that his/her high wire life also has a safety net:

Merah Satguru rakhvala hoahah.

Ik Ong Kaar is my safety net.

So, we as Sikhs have the duty to participate in the way our Gurus have instilled in us to live as Sikhs, that is, to live the life of Miri - Piri. One can not happen without the other.

Lastly,

I have asked the following questions several times in other posts/threads and they worth repeating about this modus operandi of the Akal Takhat.

1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS, our only Guru?

3. How can one stop someone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?

Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

4.How and who can ex-communicate "Gobind"?

Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.

Something to ponder about!

Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi, contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmander sahib.

As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith, they themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.

Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on our only Guru’s teachings.

Warm regards and looking forward to learning from your insightful essays.

Tejwant Singh

spnadmin · Feb 16, 2010

Jios,

Coming back to read this thread -- because it was hard for me to absorb all the ideas at the time -- I think the questions posted by Tejwant ji are so thought provoking they need to be reasked in separate threads.

These will be posted forthwith!

Gyani Jarnail Singh · Feb 17, 2010

Tejwant Ji simply has the knack of...peeling away the doubts and hog wash..and diivng straight into the centre..the KERNEL !! The Hans that dives for Motees..while the Baglas dive for frogs...

arshi · Feb 17, 2010

Tejwant Singh ji
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Gurfateh

I agree with both Narayanjot Kaur ji and Gyani ji. The questions you have posed go to the core of Sikh Values:

1. The concept of <I>miri piri</I>: We must balance our lives, in that while we are treading a spiritual path we must also stand up for justice where injustice is seen to done. In my long span of life I have often come across situations where I have had to stand up for my principles even to the detriment of my career, progress and well being. I have never regretted these. I agree with you entirely that closing ones eyes to the facts will not solve the problem or make it disappear. We need longer discussions and articles on how we balance the two (which I have been saying al along), i.e. maintain our spirituality whilst also ensuring that we help in creating a fair and just society. In this we must help each other by sharing our experiences and inspire others.

2. The concept of excommunication: This is a more serious and practical issue to review. Even before the current case of Professor Sahib, the issue of excommunication has caused controversies and wrong decisions have been taken in the past – you of all the people would be more aware of this, being an ardent scholar of both theology and history.

The reason I have not responded to your post earlier has been mainly time, which I indicated earlier. In addition to this are the depth and breadth of the excellent questions you have asked and indeed, as Narayanjot Ji has pointed out, this would need new threads and more thought provoking articles. I have a few thought in my head but these need to gone into and developed. For example how should the Sikh Panth deal with genuine wayward Sikhs? For example, Guru Har Rai Ji, the Seventh Nanak, fell out with his eldest son Ram Rai Ji for misquoting Gurbani in the court of the Mogul King. When Har Rai Ji heard of the incident, he forbade Ram Rai from ever returning home. On the other hand when Baba Dattoo ji kicked Guru Amar Das Ji for not landing the Gurgaddi, Guru Ji immediately began caressing Dattoo Ji’s foot, concerned whether Guru Ji’s old and hardened bones may have inflicted pain on Dattoo Ji’s foot – what humility! There are other such incidents. It would appear that each case has to be taken on its merits, mitigating circumstances, compassion and above all fairness.

The above is a hurried reaction and mere thoughts and no reflection on the current issue.

Kind regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Tejwant Singh · Feb 17, 2010

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your response. Much appreciated.

this would need new threads and more thought provoking articles. I have a few thought in my head but these need to gone into and developed.

I will be eagerly waiting for your thought provoking essays which help me learn a lot. Internet is the best thing so far happened to Sikhi. It creates a worldwide cyber Sadh Sangat and all of us can interact, learn, agree, disagree, express and the most important thing is that elevate our level of normalcy as far as Sikhi ideals are concerned. In other words, for me it is Gurpurab of life everyday which I celebrate in wonderful forums like this.

For example how should the Sikh Panth deal with genuine wayward Sikhs? For example, Guru Har Rai Ji, the Seventh Nanak, fell out with his eldest son Ram Rai Ji for misquoting Gurbani in the court of the Mogul King. When Har Rai Ji heard of the incident, he forbade Ram Rai from ever returning home.

On the other hand when Baba Dattoo ji kicked Guru Amar Das Ji for not landing the Gurgaddi, Guru Ji immediately began caressing Dattoo Ji’s foot, concerned whether Guru Ji’s old and hardened bones may have inflicted pain on Dattoo Ji’s foot – what humility! There are other such incidents. It would appear that each case has to be taken on its merits, mitigating circumstances, compassion and above all fairness.

I have no idea how much credence you put on these Sakhis and how you take them when some Sakhis contradict Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the SGGS, our only Guru?

The first Sakhi indicates that the 7th Nanak lacked sehaj and the second one indicates that the 3rd Nanak had plenty of it.

How does one differentiate between the two when they all have one single jyot of Guru Nanak?

How can 7th Guru be so unforgiving and becomes a punisher whereas the the 3rd Guru ever so forgiving when all Sikhs including the Gurus serve the Nirbhau, Nirvair.

Gurbani says: Nan koi beri nahin beganah.

I see no stranger, I feel no enmity.

So, why this enmity in our 7th Guru, if you believe in the sakhi as it shows from your own post that you do?

How do you convince yourself about two contradictory Sakhis to be true and based on the same Gurmat ideals?

Talking about the first Sakhi, I wrote something regarding this particular one. I would like to have your comments about it.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/16270-do-all-sakhis-compliment-gurmat.html

Do all Sakhis compliment Gurmat?

Tejwant Singh

It is interesting to observe that how much credence we give to the Sakhis which are passed on as oral traditions and some have been used in writings and are shamlessly used on the pulpit by the Ragis and the Kathavachaks without even giving it a second thought if they compliment Gurmat or not.

We as Sikhs must be always aware that only the Sakhis that compliment Gurbani- Gurmat values- should be embraced. The rest should be rejected and should be forbidden by the Akal Takht for the Ragis/ Kathavachaks to ever use them.

Lets take the Sakhi below as told by Dr. Hakam Singh in another forum .

Aurangzeb invites Guru Har Rai to come to Delhi (For reasons of his own).

Guru Har Rai, instead of going himself, sends his eldest son Ram Rai.

Ram Rai answers most of the questions posed to him on Sikhism in the emperor's
court and even works miracles.

In answer to one question on the validity of Guru Nanak's Sabad, "Mittee
Musalman ki pere paee kumhiaar ----------", Ram Rai wavers and says that the
Sabd is "Mittee Baeemaan ki" and not Mittee Musalman ki.

Guru Har Rai on hearing what Ram Rai had done (distorted the Sabad of Guru
Nanak) said, "I do not wish to see the face of Ram Rai any more".

Before we dissect its contents, lets look in the back ground of the Shabad.First and foremost this Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji which was written more than a century before this incident has supposed to have happened. We are all aware through history that all these Mughal emperors were not illiterate nor dumb. They had advisers in all fields specially about Sikhi as Aurangzeb felt threatened about Sikhi taking over Islam. Hence he must have been told about Gurbani and Adi Granth and as the conventional wisdom indicates that he must have also known the right verse, thus had no reason to ask Ram Rai about it.

Now lets assume for the sake of argument that Aurangzeb had no idea about the following Shabad:-

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 466

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

mittee musalamaan kee paerrai pee kumihaaar ||
The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel.

gharr bhaa(n)ddae eittaa keeaa jaladhee karae pukaar ||
Pots and bricks are fashioned from it, and it cries out as it burns.

jal jal rovai bapurree jharr jharr pavehi a(n)giaar ||
The poor clay burns, burns and weeps, as the fiery coals fall upon
it.

naanak jin karathai kaaran keeaa so jaanai karathaar ||2||
O Nanak, the Creator created the creation; the Creator Lord alone
knows. ||2||

The above Shabad is talking about the burial. As India had no Christians nor Jews at that time then the only people who were buried in India rather than cremated were the Muslims.

The Sakhi based on the above Shabad goes like this:

Some Muslim scholars were having a chat with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and they told him that all Muslims go to Heaven after the burial where it is cool and all kafirs - Hindus-go to hell which is steaming hot because of cremation.

After listening to them Guru Nanak asked them through the Shabad, how can heaven be cool when you are put in a hot oven by your Potter?

In other words, No Hell- No Heaven. Now this Sakhi does compliment the Shabad and makes sense.

Assuming that Aurangzeb did not know the shabad but as a devout Muslim he knew that Allah means the Potter in Koran.

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Ik Ong Kaar is considered The Potter and Heaven is considered as a cool place and Hell as steaming hot cauldron.

In contrast, in Hinduism a potter is just a low caste Hindu who shall remain as such forever, generation after generation.

Here is the big difference in interpreting the Sakhi because of the word Potter which has totally a different meaning in these two cultures.

In Hinduism, a potter is an outcast whereas in the Semitic religions The Potter is Ik Ong Kaar.

But we know that Guru Nanak talked the language of the people he was interacting with. So, he knew what Potter meant to the Muslim which is Allah.

The Holy Bible

Isaiah 64:8 (New International Version)
8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand

Isaiah 45:9 (New International Version)
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the
ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

The Holy Koran

[55.14] He created man from dry clay like earthen vessels,

[6.2] He it is Who created you from clay, then He decreed a term;
and there is a term named with Him; still you doubt.

[15:28-31]
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged
mud, like the potter's clay. Once I perfect him, and blow into him
from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him. The angels fell
prostrate; all of them, except Iblis (Satan). He refused to be with
the prostrators.

Now coming back to the Sakhi. If Ram Rai had changed the word from Musalmaan to Bayeemann, that would have been much more offensive because then it would indicate that all Musalmaans are Bayeemanns.

In conclusion, the above incidence is not likely to have happened as it gets Ram Rai into bigger trouble.

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages.
The Koran

Thanks & Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Certain things added to update the essay.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · Feb 18, 2010

Looks like the Sakhi is yet another creation of a "fertile" but infantile mind...taking the superficial maenaings of Mittee mussalmaan ki....similar to many other sakhis invented in simialr fashion...GURBANI is much deeper !!!

Bmandur · Feb 18, 2010

Gyani JI,
Gurfateh,

Yes this saakhi has another meaning to Mittee Musalmaan ki,paerrai pee Qumihaaar,

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But Guru Nanak dev say at the end you are under the soul ( earth) later on, Qumeeaar comes and take the cheekni mittee ( Clay) to make Pot at the end they have to put that pot under the fire to bake so in way a you are being criminated by some one else with some one else hands too.
I think this is meaning of that saakhi. Heaven Hell is here! "In short"

Am I right Gynai Ji!
Gurfateh:happykaur:

Gyani Jarnail Singh · Feb 18, 2010

Guru Ji is a Master at hitting many birds with one stone...in this Shaabd - the Metaphor of Potter (Creator) and Clay etc also used in the Koran and the Biblical tradition...Guru Ji addressing a Muslim audience talks in "language" they will understand..and then its Guru Jis Own Message...that it really doesnt matter how this body is dealt with....cremated/washed away in flowing water/buried/left to be eaten by wild animals (P{censored}es leave their dead on high towers for the vultures ) etc etc etc...and contrary to muslim beleifs that Hindu bodies cry out in pain during cremation..Guru Ji shows how a typical Muslim body buried would still "suffer the same pain..etc in fact it may "burn" multiple times as a pot on fire !!
Its like fighting fire with fire..neither hindu bodies cry and neither do muslim bodies/pots cry...its all just their false beleifs..
If we read Gurbani we will see that Guru Ji always had the different audience in mind and used appropriate metaphors/examples/language/vocabulary so it would fit in with the selcted audience mind-set...just like todays "Marketing Gurus target selected audiences"..see how advanced Guru ji actually is...in HARDWAAR..Guru Ji NEVER talks about Muslims/their beleifs/vocubalary...and likewise in MECCA..Guur Ji Never talks about Shivji and Parbatee/ganga bathing etc...

WHAT Matters is the Guru Jis divine Message...THIS BODY IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE..its just avehicle offered to us for NAAM JAPP and Ultimate submersion in the CREATOR. This MESSAGE always appears in the RAHAO/Ending tuks of all shabads...please do read till the END....a lot of people just read the first few lines and take it as Gurumatt !! Beware..of such one tuk wonders...:happysingh::happykaur::welcome:
Gurfateh.

arshi · Feb 19, 2010

Tejwant Singh Ji
<?"urn:<img src=" />
Gurfateh

Another long post! But I do appreciate the many points you made. Unfortunately, I can only afford a few hours at the weekend for the forum.

<I>

<I>I will be eagerly waiting for your thought provoking essays which help me learn a lot.</I>

</I>
<I></I>
Tejwant ji, you give me too much credit while you sir are the knowledgeable one. I am but a mere learner.

<I>

I have no idea how much credence you put on these Sakhis and how you take them when some Sakhis contradict Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in the SGGS, our only Guru?

</I>

True, I am a sucker for Sakhis but only as long as they deliver a message, a moral in line with Gurmat. We must, of course, distinguish between man-gharant (fictitious) ‘sakhis’ and actual incidents from Sikh History. Both the examples I gave, are to the best of my knowledge, been widely circulated and accepted as actual events - I have no reason to disbelieve them. The ones in question here are certainly not far-fetched, in my opinion. I suppose every situation must be handled on its merits.

The above comments are based on how I feel and not a criticism of you or your views, which I always respect

Tejwant ji, your post touched on so many points that if I go on this would run into pages and render it of less interest to other readers - please do forgive me, if I don’t. Secondly there is only so much one can discuss and convey through writing – personal, face to face dialogue is much better and rewarding. You have such an excellent inquiring mind that your questions form the basis of ‘feeder matter’ for articles and essays. In your post you have directly or directly touched upon:

- miracles and Sikhism;
- the real meaning of <I>‘</I><I>na ko bairi nahin beganna’</I>;
- distortion and misrepresentation of Gurbani;
- Sadh Sangat and its impact on Sikhism and Sikh values;
- Ragis and the Kathavachaks – are they responsible for our woes;
- proving the authenticity of events and Bani;
- Similarities between Sikhism and other faiths.

Dealing with these under this thread will be both time consuming and digressing. In the process I may say something in haste only to regret it later. I am not cut out for internet discussions. I am much happier researching, writing articles and essays for my website and others and above all come to terms with my own spirituality. I only post selectively and most of my posts are in response to reactions relating to my articles by well meaning Sikhs like your esteemed self. This is largely due to constraints on my time. The week is largely claimed by work and family and the weekends by social occasions and functions. I hope to incorporate many of the issues you have raised in some of my essays, which you suggest I write and I will look forward to your comments<I></I>

Sincere thanks and kind regards ji.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Tejwant Singh · Feb 20, 2010

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your response. I know you are a very busy person and besides being so busy you take some time out to respond to my queries and make me learn, which is one true seva and you have no idea how much I appreciate it.

I do apologise that my posts are long which makes you a bit uncomfy because of the shortage of time you have but I am a sucker for the knowledge given to us in SGGS, our only Guru and that is the only benchmark I have to gauge my own journey with and keep myself in check.

As I am a sucker for Gurbani, I would like you to write an essay or two regarding the 2 Sakhis you mentioned and how in one the actions contradict Gurmat ideals and in the other one they compliment and yet, both you agree with?

I suppose every situation must be handled on its merits.

Here we are not talking about any actions of the Jathedars of the Akal Takhat but the actions of one jyot in two bodies. Our two Gurus who were closer than any one of us with Ik Ong Kaar who is Nirbhau, Nirvair and ever forgiving and never a punisher but a motivator, a true teacher- SATGURU who makes his students learn no matter how many times a bad student like me has made mistakes. In other words, a real FATHER and our Gurus emulated Him.

Please take your time because learning is a life long journey.

Warm regards

Tejwant Singh

arshi · Feb 20, 2010

Tejwant Singh Ji
<?"urn:

P><P><I><FONT face=Verdana>[quote]<I><FONT face=Verdana>As I am a sucker for Gurbani, I would like you to write an essay or two regarding the 2 Sakhis you mentioned and how in one the actions contradict Gurmat ideals and in the other one they compliment and yet, both you agree with

<st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> for anti-gurmat activity. They may have reunited since then.

An incident is often quoted by ragis and kathavachak that once Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed a Sikh to slap another for mispronouncing bani, thereby also distorting its meaning. I for one do not feel Guru Ji would have given any such instructions where the Sikh in question (a mere learner) mispronounced the word in innocence. Contrast this with Ram Rai who deliberately interfered with Gurbani for personal gain and acceptance at the mogul’s court. Some Sikhs view such an act even graver than killing someone. In the latter case one life is lost but in the former changing the contents, of what we consider the Ultimate and Eternal Guru, would distress millions of lives.

I apologise for the long post - but it was only to answer your concerns and luckily being the weekend I had a little time. Please note that all the comments are a general expression of how I perceive things and in no way a criticism of you or your views. Even your brief posts are a challenge for a humble seeker like me. I do hope this helped.

Kind regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Tejwant Singh · Feb 23, 2010

Arshi ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Tejwant ji, although some of your posts are long, they do raise many issues of interest, though sometimes I get the feeling that, occasionally, you know the answer or have an innocent fixation (only an observation) but are merely testing the conviction of the other party (please do forgive me if I am wrong). Even your shorter posts have a quality which will test any scholar! I am but a humble learner.

Arshi ji,

Gurbani has taught me to give the benefit of the doubt to others rather than doubting their actions. I will just leave it to that what I have put in bold above.

I, too, am dedicated to Gurbani, through and through, and Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Eternal Light I look towards to guide me on my spiritual journey.

I am glad to know that , however under the same token you also claimed in another post that you are a said,"True, I am a sucker for Sakhis but only as long as they deliver a message, a moral in line with Gurmat."

SGGS is a stand alone tool box. it needs no Sakhis to justify anything in it and secondly how Guru Har Rai not being forgiving but being a punisher- as you believe in the Sakhi, delivers a message, a moral in line with Gurmat. It seems quite contradictory to the behaviour of one who has attained sehaj.

It is not always easy to understand and interpret Gurbani particularly when, as in my case, one has had no formal training. We should breathe, inhale, Gurbani all the time.

I agree with you. My High School teacher used to say ," why things should be easy" whenever we complained about the difficulty or the challenges of learning. I have not had any formal training either. My first thought or as I call it thinking aloud came in Oct. of 2001 after the happening of 9-11. So, I am much more a novice in this than you are.

har amrit naam bhojan nit bhunchahu sarab vaylaa mukh paavhu.
Let your daily meal be the Nectar of Lord’s Name; at all times put this ambrosial food into your mouth. (SGGS 611)

I very much regret the years I have wasted, when I have been divorced from my Satguru – the mere thought wells up tears in my eyes and shake me inside out - but it is only with His blessings (gur parsad) that we are able to realign our journey.

I do not regret anything in the past because I believe in Ik Ong Kaar's hukam. The Source decided about my quest. I never have any say in it.

I often try and find time to read books by learned Sikh scholars, e.g. Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai Vir Singh ji, Gyani Maskin ji to enhance my understanding of Gurbani and of course also itihaas as it often gives the background to enrich that understanding. This includes Bani of Dasam Pita (e.g. Jaap Sahib, Savaiaye)

Knowledge is always good and that is the meaning of being a Sikh but for anyone of us to claim what our Dasam Pita wrote is nothing but second guessing him which is not in my realm of understanding of Gurbani. The fact is that Bhai Gurdas' vaarans were not added in the SGGS by our Gurus and then we claim that our Gurus said that his vaarans are the key to understanding Gurbani as if SGGS were under lock and key. Gurbani gives us the tools for critical thinking. Believing in the above, as many do is second guessing our Gurus.Having said that Bhai Gurdas' poetry is quite interesting. Bhai Vir Singh was a great scholar and in fact a close friend of my grand father and Prof. Puran Singh was my grand dad's - Pita ji's first cousin, his Bhua's son. When he returned from Japan as a Buddhist, Pita ji, along with Bhai Vir Singh ji were instrumental in bringing him back to the Sikhi fold.

I will not let politics sway me from my path unless I consider the matter is directly blocking my path towards spirituality.

I beg to differ with you. Politics- Miri is part and parcel of spirituality- Piri. Miri- Piri are two tracks on which the Gurmat trains run. Without one or the other Gurmat train has no way to move ahead.

Faith is, to a greater extent a personal matter, and the trouble with organised ‘religion’ is that it sometimes sucks people in to act against their nature and their inner voice

.

Please forgive my bluntness but Sikhi is not a faith but a way of life for me. Faith makes people blind. Sikhi helps us open our inner eyes. Sikhi is not a religion either. Organised religions demand external impositions where as Sikhi breeds internal manifestation.

I am, here, merely opening my heart out to you and in no way critical of your views, which I know you always give in total sincerity and goodwill.

Thanks for doing that. This is the true essence of interaction in which I believe in too.

I only quoted two examples from the top of my head and have no reason to question the action of the both the Gurus under the circumstances. Interestingly, IJ Singh ji has also quoted one of the incidents in his article (Tribal justice and excommunication):

“Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb. Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb.”

I am sorry to say but it gives the impression that you did not read the reasoning given in my missive about the Sakhi and also you missed the whole point what Dr. I.J. Singh is trying to make.

Dr. I.J. Singh is a good friend of mine and we interact via emails and telephone calls quite often. I sent him our interaction about the Sakhi and asked him the same. If you PM me your email address, I can send you my email to him and also ask him if I can divulge anything from his because he did mention that he agrees with me and the two Sakhis were not part of the original draft.

I was a bit surprised when you seized the moment and were quick to mention just one thing from the whole essay and that is about Ram Rai's Sakhi whereas his wonderful essay is the blue print on Miri. I was surprised to see that a Sikh scholar like you did not comment anything at all on the main theme of his essay.

I have posted my response on Sikhchic.com regarding the Dr. I.J. Singh's essay.

Yes ten Gurus and a single jyot but each showed unique characteristics of its own to give us a complete and rounded picture of life and how to live it. Otherwise what was the need of the successors?

I agree with you but each characteristic does not mean contradiction of Gurmat ideals but the compliment and evolution of them with time that only happened in Sikhi which is the pragmatic way of life and did not stop in time unlike other religions who offered nothing but dogmas which stopped in that time zone. No dogmatic religion needs any successors. The fight,hatred, disdain and the division between Sunnis and Shias is the proof of that.

I guess that the Seventh Nanak applied more exacting standards in the case of his son as others may see it as nepotism, if he didn’t. In the case of Guru Amar Das, Baba Dattoo ji was the son of the second Guru whom he had served for many years. Perhaps Guru Ji took into account Dattoo Ji’s disappointment in not getting the Gurgaddi which he felt was rightfully (his viewpoint) his.

Your above statement confirms that you are a sucker for Sakhis whether they compliment Gurmat ideals or not.

Interfering with Gurbani is a very grave offence and that too of a Guru other than Baba Dattoo’s father. Would he have taken a more lenient attitude if Baba Ram Rai had misquoted Guru Har Rai Ji? I do not know! Whether a course of action is right or wrong also depends on the times and circumstances ruling then. Hundreds of years later we may come to a different and even wrong deduction.

Again, this is nothing but a speculation and a blind belief in something which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

The best example is our modern day Ardaas which we blindly believe in and recite all the times. Did our Gurus use this Ardaas?For me this is the true distortion of Gurbani and we do it several times a day. There are some threads on this forum on which this is discussed in details.

It is ironic to note, if it serves my memory right, that about 25 years ago, I heard from a source quite close to Prof Darshan Singh ji at the time that he had shunned his own brother living in <st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> for anti-gurmat activity. They may have reunited since then.

It is interesting to notice that you are comparing the Sakhi of our Gurus with the life of Prof. Sahib. I have no idea what kind of Gurmat ideal it is based on or what Gurmat lesson does it serve? Feuds in the family are very common. Even if I had known about any feud in any famous person's life, it is not my right to talk about it. It does not serve any purpose.

An incident is often quoted by ragis and kathavachak that once Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed a Sikh to slap another for mispronouncing bani, thereby also distorting its meaning. I for one do not feel Guru Ji would have given any such instructions where the Sikh in question (a mere learner) mispronounced the word in innocence. Contrast this with Ram Rai who deliberately interfered with Gurbani for personal gain and acceptance at the mogul’s court. Some Sikhs view such an act even graver than killing someone. In the latter case one life is lost but in the former changing the contents, of what we consider the Ultimate and Eternal Guru, would distress millions of lives.

Once again you are showing how Sakhis and these kinds of stories are important for you. For me they do not serve any purpose. Understanding Gurbani is our only goal. Rest is all meaningless to me.

As Sikhi is all about learning, I am a anxiously waiting for your insightful essays.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · Feb 24, 2010

Guur Angad Ji, Guur Amardass Ji showed no animosity to those of the earlier guru progeny who opposed their Gurgadee...Guru Arjan Ji sahib showed absolutley no animosity towards his brother Prithiayah who did many unforgivable things...
Guru HarGobind Ji could have gone to war with those Uncles of his who caused Guru Arjan Jis shaheedee and horrible tortures.( IF He could defeat the Mughal Forces..what were Prithi chand and his gang) .He didnt show any animosity but retreated to Waddali away from Harmandir Sahib founded by his father and Grandfather...
Guru Har rai Ji was so Komal hearted that he gave up wearing a Big Chola when by accident the chola got stuck in a Rose Plant and caused a Beautiful Rose to be broken off.
Moral of HIStory: The so called "sakhis" are human inventions by imagination rich humans trying to fit the GURU into our limited MOULDS.They dont fall true on touchtone of History or Gurbani...but they do show our Gurus as angry men, anxious men, animostic men, greedy men, etc etc etc..which they WERE NOT.:advocate:

arshi · Feb 27, 2010

Tejwant Singh ji

<FONT color=#001f4b>Gurfateh<?"urn:

</I></B>

First of all let me clarify the meaning of the term ‘sakhi’ as I understand it. "sakhi" is normally taken to mean an "historical account". The term does have a broader meaning, as stories contained in janam sakhis, many of them questionable. Some of these are considered mangharant – made up stories as they are passed on like folklores second, third hand etc. Then there are those we refer to as parables. Sometimes these are told to explain some of the mythological names mentioned in Gurbani but these must not distract us from the true essence of Gurbani in the way we must use it to run our day to day life. I am referring only to those sakhis which enhance our UNDERSTANDING OF GURBANI.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions many names from the past, e.g. Brhama, Vishnu, Sudamaa, Krishen, Ajamal. Ganika – the full meaning of the verse (tuk) in Gurbani becomes clearer if we know a little bit more of the characters mentioned. They often allow us to understand the negative traits which inflict humans and the awareness of these gives an opportunity to appreciate the teachings of Gurbani and how we may apply these to eradicate or marginalise these negative traits. This approach does not take anything away from Gurbani – it enhances our understanding. Then there are parables with ‘morality’ conclusions – I posted a handful under the Sakhis section and these were well received. In response to one - CONMEN: TWISTING THE TRUTH - Narayanjot ji wrote: “Please write more! I am a hopeless fan of morality stories told this way.” SO AM I.

When I wrote: "True, I am a sucker for Sakhis but only as long as they deliver a message, a moral in line with Gurmat." I did so in thesame spirit to which Narayanjot ji alluded in her post. In fact her comments were actually at the back of mind when I wrote being a sucker for morality sakhis. I admire Narayanjot ji’s style of communicating and am not ashamed to even borrow some of her phrases and I did point out one such phrase to her which I liked.
Aman ji also appreciated a Sakhi with a moral: FOUR THIEVES AND THE SIMPLETON and this is what he wrote:

"Arshi ji, your parable truly sums up the present state of Sikhs... nobody could have summed up the situation better..." <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn::vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" oreferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><vath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></vath><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape style="WIDTH: 24.75pt; HEIGHT: 18.75pt" id=_x0000_i1025 alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\RAJ\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/images/smilies/NOTWORTH.GIF"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

Where these are used to understand or to explain the teachings of SGGS, I see no harm in them but the paramount source, scripture, Guru, Guide and guiding light is SGGS.

You wrote: SGGS is a stand alone tool box. it needs no Sakhis to justify anything in it and secondly how Guru Har Rai not being forgiving but being a punisher- as you believe in the Sakhi, delivers a message, a moral in line with Gurmat. It seems quite contradictory to the behaviour of one who has attained sehaj.

I prefer to use the term incident here as ‘sakhi’ (as explained above) often has fictitious connotations. You keep on mentioning ‘sehaj’. Many non-Sikhs accuse Guru Gobind Singh Ji of lacking it (quite wrongly of course) when he lifted the sword. True Guru Har Rai Ji was tender hearted but that does not mean he would not discipline wayward individuals when he saw a serious transgression of Sikhi Sidhant. If the story is right then the stand he took demonstrates sehaj rather than anger. It is not easy to breakaway from one’s children and mortals like us are bound by moh (atachment) of our lived ones. I, from the top of my head, just cited two incidents as contrasting examples and you, forgive me, are taking these as conclusive and final say on the matter. I believed in both the incidents but it does not rule out that I may be wrong as I do take your point that our Gurus must not be seen or shown as angry revengeful persons which, I agree with you, they certainly were not.

You wrote: I do not regret anything in the past because I believe in Ik Ong Kaar's hukam. The Source decided about my quest. I never have any say in it.

I agree and I did add that only with his blessings (gur parsad) do we tread the true path (sacha marg). It was the human in me talking when I wrote this. I did observe, I was opening out my heart to you – i.e. comments made without being on guard.

Earlier I wrote: “I often try and find time to read books by learned Sikh scholars, e.g. Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai Vir Singh ji, Gyani Maskin ji to enhance my understanding of Gurbani and of course also itihaas as it often gives the background to enrich that understanding. This includes Bani of Dasam Pita (e.g. Jaap Sahib, Savaiaye)”

And you responded:

Knowledge is always good and that is the meaning of being a Sikh but for anyone of us to claim what our Dasam Pita wrote is nothing but second guessing him which is not in my realm of understanding of Gurbani. The fact is that Bhai Gurdas' vaarans were not added in the SGGS by our Gurus and then we claim that our Gurus said that his vaarans are the key to understanding Gurbani as if SGGS were under lock and key. Gurbani gives us the tools for critical thinking. Believing in the above, as many do is second guessing our Gurus.Having said that Bhai Gurdas' poetry is quite interesting. Bhai Vir Singh was a great scholar and in fact a close friend of my grand father and Prof. Puran Singh was my grand dad's - Pita ji's first cousin, his Bhua's son. When he returned from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml::

</st1:country-region><st1lace w:st="on">Japan as a Buddhist, Pita ji, along with Bhai Vir Singh ji were instrumental in bringing him back to the Sikhi fold.

I did not expect the above statement to draw any comments – I do not see as having said anything unusual or unworthy of a Sikh. I personally did not mention any keys opening locks. All I wrote was that any works of a scholar which helps one in translating, interpreting and understanding Gurbani is a good thing. Now that you mention it, true there is a common belief that Bhai Gurdas Ji’s works are regarded as a key to understanding Gurbani and some say these were not included because Bhai Sahib was given to houmai (egotism) when conferred with excessive praise over his works. I do occasionally refer to his writings

Earlier I wrote - Quote:
I will not let politics sway me from my path unless I consider the matter is directly blocking my path towards spirituality.

And you responded:
I beg to differ with you. Politics- Miri is part and parcel of spirituality- Piri. Miri- Piri are two tracks on which the Gurmat trains runs without one or the other the train has no way to move ahead.
This was a personal opinion in that I would venture into miri only when I feel my conscious allows it – the concept of miri piri does not mean that one jumps headlong into every dispute without first examining the facts – this is a general statement – not a political one. But, overall I agree with what you are saying.

Earlier I wrote - quote:
Faith is, to a greater extent a personal matter, and the trouble with organised ‘religion’ is that it sometimes sucks people in to act against their nature and their inner voice

And you responded:
Please forgive my bluntness but Sikhi is not a faith but a way of life for me. Faith makes people blind. Sikhi helps us open our inner eyes. Sikhi is not a religion either. Organised religions demand external impositions where as Sikhi breeds internal manifestation.

Tejwant ji, you can be as blunt as you like – I do not mind a bit as you also confer immense praise on some of my writings. It works both ways, I suppose. I will not accuse you of lacking sehaj either – quite to the contrary it is me who is not always in control of my feelings and I am still coming to terms with the Five Thieves. Faith is what we believe in are the values which we adopt to live our life. Let us not split hair on the use of terminology – ‘substance over terminology’ is the correct approach in my opinion.
Earlier I wrote- Quote:

I only quoted two examples from the top of my head and have no reason to question the action of the both the Gurus under the circumstances. Interestingly, IJ Singh ji has also quoted one of the incidents in his article (Tribal justice and excommunication).

You responded;
“Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb. Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb.”

I am sorry to say but it gives the impression that you did not read the reasoning given in my missive about the Sakhi and also you missed the whole point what Dr. I.J. Singh is trying to make.
Dr. I.J. Singh is a good friend of mine and we interact via emails and telephone calls quite often. I sent him our interaction about the Sakhi and asked him the same. If you PM me your email address, I can send you my email to him and also ask him if I can divulge anything from his because he did mention that he agrees with me and the two Sakhis were not part of the original draft.

I was very impressed with Dr IJ Singh’s article and I said so in that thread. My only point was to confirm the popularity of that incident which is well documented in many writings. For example, Satbir Singh ji gives a long account of it in his volume on the Seventh Nanak ‘Nirbhau Nirvair’. Whether one believes in it or not is a different matter and that I had also quoted it in the same spirit, i.e. as an illustration of how each incident should be judged on its merits. One can quite easily take another illustration that suit one’s belief. The two events came to my mind when posting – however you have every right to agree or disagree.

I think a discussion on an open forum can sometimes veer off course and wrong impressions taken as others on the forum may intervene and complicate the issues. This is why I do not post often on the form – in fact most of my posts are in response to your queries and frankly – no disrespect to you – I would like to put some restraint on these and concentrate on researching and understanding Gurbani – I have said this before and am perhaps labouring on the thought. It will be a pleasure to send you a PM with my email ID.

You wrote I was a bit surprised when you caught the moment and were quick to mention about Ram Rai's Sakhi whereas his wonderful essay is the blue print on Miri. I have posted my response on Sikhchic.com regarding this.

I have already commended the article under that thread – please also see my comments above. I am glad to note that Dr IJ Singh is a personal friend of yours – you are blessed with good company and also distinguished pedigree going back to the times of Bhai Vir Singh ji. I come from a rather humble background but my father was a true exponent of the three pillars of Naam, japo, kirat karo and wand shako. He worked like any kirati and performed nishkam kitan, in his spare time, for nearly 70 years based on classical ragas. My father-in-law also earned his living from honest kirat but devoted his whole life to the study of SGGS and knew it virtually by heart. He was ‘feared’ by learned scholars and Granthees visiting <st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region> and later <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I was able to learn a little from them but should have done more but it was not to be as we are all governed by His Ordnance.

Earlier I wrote - Quote: Yes ten Gurus and a single jyot but each showed unique characteristics of its own to give us a complete and rounded picture of life and how to live it. Otherwise what was the need of the successors?

You responded:I agree with you but each characteristic does not mean contradiction of Gurmat ideals but the compliment and evolution of them with time that only happened in Sikhi which is the pragmatic way of life and did not stop in time unlike other religions who offered nothing but dogmas which stopped in that time zone. No dogmatic religion needs any successors. The fight,hatred, disdain and the division between Sunnis and Shias is the proof of that.

Whether there is a contradiction of ideas is not for me to decide. True, we can have a personal drishtikon of viewing things and sometimes our logic may be faulted but it is only human to err. With time and Guru’s blessings I hope to move on from any such ‘hang ups’ due to a defect in the way I think. I am only at the nursery level of my spiritual quest. Guru is sarab kala samrath and can never be faulted.

Earlier I wrote - Quote: I guess that the Seventh Nanak applied more exacting standards in the case of his son as others may see it as nepotism, if he didn’t. In the case of Guru Amar Das, Baba Dattoo ji was the son of the second Guru whom he had served for many years. Perhaps Guru Ji took into account Dattoo Ji’s disappointment in not getting the Gorged which he felt was rightfully (his viewpoint) his.

You responded:
Your above statement confirms that you are a sucker for Sakhis whether they compliment Gurmat ideals or not.

Tejwant ji, I must confess this comment took me aback a bit. I have already clarified the point above, in great detail, i.e. a distinction between actual historical events and parables. Even if a parable gives an insight into understanding some aspect of life it cannot be a bad thing. For someone to say, he wishes to learn from others, even from a simpleton like me, and then make such comments puzzles me. But, I am not offended as I do believe you are a better Sikh than me and know more than me – I am only a lowly person full of faults and burn in the fire of duality. I can only pray:

Man's sins are as immeasurable as the water that fills the seas and the oceans.

O Lord take mercy upon our souls and extend a little pity to keep this mankind (laden with sins) afloat; for without Thy Grace, which can keep stones afloat, it will for sure drown.

Man's soul burns in the fire of ignorance and sin; his innerself is being shredded by unseen scissors of worldly desires and vain pursuits,

Pray Nanak that man may come to terms with the Lord's Order so that he may forever live blissfully. (gaorhee chaytee mehlaa 1 . SGGS156 - my humble translation)

Earlier I wrote - Quote:
Interfering with Gurbani is a very grave offence and that too of a Guru other than Baba Dattoo’s father. Would he have taken a more lenient attitude if Baba Ram Rai had misquoted Guru Har Rai Ji? I do not know! Whether a course of action is right or wrong also depends on the times and circumstances ruling then. Hundreds of years later we may come to a different and even wrong deduction.

You responded: Again, this is nothing but a speculation and a blind belief in something which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

‘Blind belief’! What I am saying is pure common sense and does not require any depth of understanding of any scripture to appreciate that but you have a right to your opinion and I to mine. Let us end it that. The current events prove how people are unable to interpret events and Gurbani correctly and allow themselves to be drawn into the whirlpool of what they claim to be logic. As long as something suits their logic or purpose is considered correct and everything else is false!! Self interest seems to override Truth these days. I am afraid there is a tendency that many do not check out the facts on the touchstone of Gurbani but do so on the touchstone of politics and self- interest (this is a general comment and not aimed at you).

You wrote: The best example is our modern day Ardaas which we blindly believe in and recite all the times. Did our Gurus use this Ardaas?For me this is the true distortion of Gurbani and we do it several times a day. There are some threads on this forum on which this is discussed in details.

I agree Ardas not said from the heart is of course futile. But is there a deeper meaning in what you are saying here – i.e. the contents of the Sikh Ardas?

Earlier I wrote - Quote:
It is ironic to note, if it serves my memory right, that about 25 years ago, I heard from a source quite close to Prof Darshan Singh ji at the time that he had shunned his own brother living in UK for anti-gurmat activity. They may have reunited since then.

Your response: It is interesting to notice that you are comparing the Sakhi of our Gurus with the life of Prof. Sahib. I have no idea what kind of Gurmat ideal it is based on or what Gurmat lesson does it serve. Feuds in the family are very common. Even if I had known about any feud in any famous person's life, it is not my right to talk about it. It does not serve any purpose.

I agree. I was a bit reluctant and thought a lot about it –may be it was wrong to do so – in which case I apologise. When a figure becomes so public that it affects the future of a whole Panth then that person’s personal life events may give us some guidance on the issues. I had only praise for professor sahib at the time I heard it. I was commending him on how strong he was (and perhaps still is) in his beliefs and ideals. The matter in question was not a family feud, as we normally see. His roas (grievance - for the want of a better word) was, as I understood it, on the basis of Gurmat. Ever since I have admired him a lot but I am yet to make up my mind on his current stand. When I wrote that I had nothing but praise for him – but no more of this.

Earlier I wrote - Quote: An incident is often quoted by ragis and kathavachak that once Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed a Sikh to slap another for mispronouncing bani, thereby also distorting its meaning. I for one do not feel Guru Ji would have given any such instructions where the Sikh in question (a mere learner) mispronounced the word in innocence. Contrast this with Ram Rai who deliberately interfered with Gurbani for personal gain and acceptance at the mogul’s court. Some Sikhs view such an act even graver than killing someone. In the latter case one life is lost but in the former changing the contents, of what we consider the Ultimate and Eternal Guru, would distress millions of lives.

Your response: Once again you are showing how Sakhis and these kinds of stories are important for you. For me they do not serve any purpose. Understanding Gurbani is our only goal. Rest is all meaningless to me.

I agree, Gurbani above everything - but we may need other ‘tools’ - to use your term – to translate, interpret and understand Gurbani. This may also include learning from others including learned Sikhs like you, the much maligned (by some) Ragis, katha vachaks and those who call themselves Brahmgyanis – mine is a ‘means to an end’ approach. One’s research may even stretch to reading scriptures of other faiths (as you do) including mythological tales to give insight into Gurbani as such mythological names are mentioned in the SGGS. I personally do not have a tendency to go beyond the Sikh scriptures and incidents from its history including the two I quoted. Occasionally though, I may visit a Hindu or an Islamic site or a book to understand the meaning of a term. Many Sikh authors have written about how Sikhism is a distinct path and that we are not Hindus as many would wish us to be. Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli, a well known and respected author, in his book Ethics of Sikhism goes to great lengths explaining how Guru Nanak rejected most of the contents of the Vedas but drew some parallels in the Upnishads which relate more closely to the Sikh philosophy. Reading such matter urges one to learn more about the terms used in Hindu and Islamic scriptures.

Guru Granth sahib does not preclude one to learn from other sources as long as these sources are in kepping with Gurmat. That is why our Gurus incorporated the Bani of other saints in SGGS.

May I hastily add that I am not attached to any group or movement and neither am I a disciple of any Baba or Brahmgyani and do not even regularly visit a Gurdwara. I am a simple person who derives his living by a small consultancy, training chartered accountants and in my spare time, whenever the opportunity offers, perform nishkaam kirtan mostly at functions of family and friends. I have also recorded Gurbani which can be downloaded from my website. I am not entirely satisfied with my rendering and have a long way to go. Singing Gurbani is my first love and writing articles is certainly not my forte but I am mere novice at both.

When I said that I was a ‘sucker’ for Sakhis, it was made in a light hearted way (sorry, I am repeating myself). The underlying point was that if a Sakhi gives a good warm feeling - ‘feel good factor’ – it drives one to explore further and extract more from the richness of the treasure contained in SGGS. It is a means to an end (as I keep saying) and would not allow anything to detract me from the path of Sikhi – which is the belief in One and only One Lord and my only Satguru is SGGS. I cannot put it any clearer than that. I, too, distinguish between far-fetched incidents and those which are in line with Sikhi and Gurmat. The two, incidents I quoted were to ILLUSTRATE CONTRASTING SITUATIONS, even if you take one in a hypothetical manner. You appear to latch on the Ram Rai incident and ignore the main point of judging each case according to its merits – you may, of course, instead take more contemporary incidents to demonstrate the same point.

Finally, the last thing I want to do is to hurt your feelings – if I do so inadvertently may I seek your forgiveness, in advance, with folded hands. My intial comments weer made in all innocence and in good faith without any political colouring and they should be taken as such without making an issue of it. I hope that the above would conclude this discussion which I think has gone far too long and move to some other interesting issue.

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Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

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