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A Question To Gurujee Or Bani Manipulation?

Randip Singh

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Hi folks I was recently e-mail an interesting question and answer document based on the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Iread it and thought it is an excellent example for me to illustrate how Bani can be manipulated:

Meat Q&A with Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

by Jaspaul Singh » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:23 am
Question: Guru Jee please tell me can Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥
"O Kabeer! Those that use force and kill and call it lawful, after going to the Court of God, what will be their state? ||187||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1374)



Question: But my friends told me that I should eat meat because it is good for me and will make me strong. Is it that bad if I have meat now and again?
Answer:
ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
"O Kabeer! The dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is (just) flavoured with salt. I am not ready to have my own throat cut to have meat with my bread? ||188||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1374)



Question: But Guru Jee, why can't Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥
"Do not cause any being to suffer, and you shall go to your true home with honor."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 322)



Question: That's all good, but I have seen Nihang Singhs do Jhatka and they say that its on going tradition to slaughter goats and eat its meat. So is it okay for the Nihang Singhs to do Jhatka?
Answer:
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥
"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1103)



Question: Okay. What about eating fish? I suppose that isn't really meat?
Answer:
ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
"O Kabeer! Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1377)



Question: Guru Jee, can you eat meat and still do Bhagti (devotional worship)?
Answer:
ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
"If in all is the one God, then why kill a chicken?"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1350)



Question: Does it affect our spirituality if we eat meat?
Answer:
ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥
ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥
ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥
"If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted. Those who drink the blood of others - how can those people's consciousness be pure?"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 140)



Question: Guru Jee does becoming a vegetarian make me religious? If I just give eating meat, does that please you?
Answer:
ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
"Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat; that person does not have the True Wisdom. (Without True Wisdom or Meditation), the person harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1289-1290)



Question: So a Sikh doesn't eat meat because a Sikh should have compassion and kindness for living life, but what thing makes a person religious if just becoming a vegetarian doesn't make a person religious?
Answer:
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਮਿਟੇ ਸਭਿ ਭਰਮਾ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਊਤਮ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
"Chanting the Name of the Lord all doubts are dispelled. Naam, the Name of the Lord is the highest religion."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 874)



Question: Guru Jee thanks for clearing up things. But why is the Panth in doubt over what "Kuttha" means and whether it means Halal meat or all meat?
Answer:
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥
ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥
"O Kabeer! What can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 1372)

compiled by Bhai Manvir Singh ji (UK)
Now here is the same article with Bani added and questions slightly altered:

Vegetarianism Q&A with Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Question: Guru Jee please tell me can Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jeṯe ḏāṇe ann ke jī▫ā bājẖ na ko▫e. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life
pg 472 Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Question: But my friends told me that I should not eat meat because it is bad for me and will make me weak. Is it that bad ?
Answer:

mehlaa 1.
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]First Mehl:
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji



Question: But Guru Jee, why can Sikhs eat meat?
Answer:
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


Question: That's all good, but I have seen Nihang Singhs do Jhatka and they say that its on going tradition to slaughter goats and eat its meat. So is it okay for the Nihang Singhs to do Jhatka?
Answer:
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Question: Okay. What about eating fish? I suppose that isn't really meat?
Answer:

Anḏẖā so▫e jė anḏẖ kamāvai ṯis riḏai sė locẖan nāhī.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

Māṯ piṯā kī rakaṯ nipanne macẖẖī mās na kẖāʼnhī.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. 1289
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Question: Guru Jee, but you cannnot eat meat and still do Bhagti (devotional worship)?
Answer:
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.


Page 1290



Question: But it affects our spirituality if we eat meat?
Answer:

Mās purāṇī mās ketābīʼn cẖahu jug mās kamāṇā.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

Jaj kāj vī▫āhi suhāvai othai mās samāṇā.

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Page 1290

Question: Guru Jee does becoming a vegetarian make me religious? If I just give up eating meat, does that please you?
Answer:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jinā kẖāḏẖī cẖopṛī gẖaṇe sėhnige ḏukẖ. ||28|| [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||

page 1379
[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Question: So it does not matter whether a Sikh does or doesn't eat meat , but what thing makes a person religious if just becoming a vegetarian doesn't make a person religious?
Answer:
"Chanting the Name of the Lord all doubts are dispelled. Naam, the Name of the Lord is the highest religion."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 874)


Question: Guru Jee thanks for clearing up things. But why have some members of the Paanth created doubt over what "Kuttha" means and whether it means Halal meat or all meat?
Answer:
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Akẖar paṛ paṛ bẖulī▫ai bẖekẖī bahuṯ abẖimān. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Reading their books over and over again, people continue making mistakes; they are so proud of their religious robes. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Page 61[/FONT]
compiled by Bhai Manvir Singh ji (UK)


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
any views?
 
Last edited:

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Guruji Can I eat my Vegetables without Salt?
Answer:
ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥
ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥
"O Kabeer! The dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is (just) flavoured with salt. I am not ready to have my own throat cut to have meat with my bread? ||188||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1374)
Guruji, my if my family are attacked by thugs, should I defend them?

ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥
"Do not cause any being to suffer, and you shall go to your true home with honor."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 322)

But surely to defend my families life is righteous
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥
"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1103)

Is it true that one can drink wine, as long as it you do not eat fish with it?
ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
"O Kabeer! Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1377)

What about black pudding?
ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥
ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥
ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥
"If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted. Those who drink the blood of others - how can those people's consciousness be pure?"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 140)

My father is blind, is it true he will never find enlightenment?, and my mother is a professional bamboo blower, what about her?
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥
ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥
"O Kabeer! What can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 1372)


Just how far can you go, I wonder, to tailor the answers? If I was feeling a bit more mischievous, and had a bit more time, I think I could justify anything in this manner, Great post Veerji
 

BaljinderS

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Dec 29, 2011
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Harry veer ji, you are a funny guy :redturban:
Sikhism is not about quantity but quality so there bound to be allot of fools who fall for this kind of misguidance.
 

BaljinderS

SPNer
Dec 29, 2011
171
251
Harry your version is brilliant. :)
lol.. funny

---------------
My father is blind, is it true he will never find enlightenment?, and my mother is a professional bamboo blower, what about her?
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥
ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥
"O Kabeer! What can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 1372)
 

Randip Singh

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Guruji, my if my family are attacked by thugs, should I defend them?

ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥
"Do not cause any being to suffer, and you shall go to your true home with honor."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 322)

But surely to defend my families life is righteous
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥
"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1103)
But seriously.

This would make Sikh's to be believers in Ahimsa and concept we reject totally.
 
Last edited:

Randip Singh

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Randip Singh ji is it possible to keep tab of Kachi Bani identifed in Examples so that it would be easily available to help people check? Media and Internet with URL probably easy and written stuff or non-online stuff being harder.

Sat Sri Akal.

Kachi Bani = tough nut to crack. Kachi Bani eminates I think from fanaticism and lack of education and downright manipulation.

To tackle manipulation, fanaticism and lack of education, all we can do is try and educate people on forums like this.

Your idea is nevertheless a good one.
 

Randip Singh

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Guruji My name is David Blain. I am a magician a who performs card tricks and I am worried about a new one I am going to do won't work at my next show. Will it work?

Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end

Page 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Guruji my name is Margaret Thatcher and I advocated Monetary Policies in the 80's that rely on Consumerism. Are my policies vindicated?

Throughout the ages, consumers consume

Page 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
5,769
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Guruji, Why is it that I have no respect for myself anymore, I am a normal father with two children, my wife has much respect, but everyone treats me like a fool.


Page 32, Line 12
ਧਨੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਇਆ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
धनु जननी जिनि जाइआ धंनु पिता परधानु ॥
Ḏẖan jannī jin jā▫i▫ā ḏẖan piṯā parḏẖān.
Blessed is the mother who gave birth and blessed and respected is the father of one,

Although this does seem a humour thread, I had to read about 15 pages of Bani to find one reference, so its not as pointless as it might seem
 
Last edited:
Aug 29, 2010
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But seriously.

This would make Sikh's to be believers in Ahimsa and concept we reject totally.
We are prepared to reject this concept of SGGS as this message goes against our own established views as per earlier Sabad. A good idea of considering the meanings of the quotes as per convenience.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Randip Singh

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Guruji, Why is it that I have no respect for myself anymore, I am a normal father with two children, my wife has much respect, but everyone treats me like a fool.


Page 32, Line 12
ਧਨੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਇਆ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
धनु जननी जिनि जाइआ धंनु पिता परधानु ॥
Ḏẖan jannī jin jā▫i▫ā ḏẖan piṯā parḏẖān.
Blessed is the mother who gave birth and blessed and respected is the father of one,

Although this does seem a humour thread, I had to read about 15 pages of Bani to find one reference, so its not as pointless as it might seem
Indeed.

In actually trying to twist the meaning of Bani, I am having to learn the real meaning, and in the process learning something.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
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Dec 21, 2010
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You are considering the idea of Ahmsa as rejected .Where does Guru ji telling us to be Hinsak.?
Prakash.S.Bagga ji your logic is flawed as it does not confirm as one has to be one or the other or there are many shades of violence and non-violence. If there are many shades then binary logic is inapplicable.

Example: Something is not "BLACK". It does not imply it is white as it could be pink, blue, red, saffron, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

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