A Few Questions From Me

[Shanger]

I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.


1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.


2] Similarly, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). This again conflicts with the idea of god imo, if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy.

3] If you want to believe that there is a god and he does show emotion, then why would he enable himself to feel emotion? Or create something which he has no control over that could affect his emotion? For example I wouldnt put my cat in a box with a dog because even tho its gully it might still get killed, there is a chance that cats and dogs get along but why would I take that chance?

4] Sikhism involves the gurus, who were in INDIA. Therefore the msg of sikhism first came to a section of the world. What about the rest of the world? Are they just unlucky/have to wait till the next life? If god really did want to make his message known, why not utilise some better form of communication where he could get his message across, after all he is god and the creator right? Does it not seem weird that god would make so little effort to become known and have one universal religion, and in fact rely on human gurus to carry out the huge task of spreading the word of his existence?

5] Finally the hindu gods are mentioned, are sikhs expected to believe that the hindu gods existed, like a human with an elephant head etc?

Please do not link me to articles from scholars and just reply to me yourself, and include granth quotes if necessary.

Thanks

 

[Ishna]

Dear Shanger ji

Welcome to the board. I will attempt to answer your questions from my own point of view.

1. I don't think God wants us to sing Its praises because It likes to hear them, but because it elevates the human conscience by focusing it on totally awesome qualities, brings peace to your mind enabling you to live a higher Truth and be a better person. It help a person link themselves to God spiritually so they might merge with God once this physical life has passed.

2. Where have you got the idea that God is happy and rewards us for good deeds, and is angry and punishes us for our bad ones? We reward or punish ourselves with nearness or separatedness from God.

3. Where have you got the idea that God has emotions in the same way humans do? God is beyond human comprehension (even declaring It beyond comprehension falls short), and I don't think anyone can say whether It feels, or if It feels in the same way humans do.

4. I don't think the Sikh conception of God is necessarily an interfering force. It is not a deity in the same sense that Jehova (Christain God) is, or any other deity I've come across (including Allah). It is an energy, not a person with a human personality. Guru Nanak was enlightened, had realised God, his light was SO BRIGHT because his connection to God was so strong. If others in the world were able to achieve that state of mind then they would probably have come to similar conclusions. It just so happens that Guru Nanak in India figured it out first!

I don't think it's a fault of God "making so little effort to become known" but more humans making so little effort (by way of our own slow evolution) to realise God.

5. Hindu Gods are mentioned because Guru Nanak was speaking to Hindus. When he was speaking to Muslims he spoke of Allah. Whether or not these deities exist bears no significance for a Sikh because a Sikh is only concerned with the One Universal Creative Force. When you read about God being Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, try reading it as "the destroying force, the creative force and the sustaining force" and you might get more of an idea of the totally all-encompassing, singular God-force.

I'm at work and can't supply quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (you might like to capitalise Granth please as you are addressing Sikhs who value their sacred scripture very highly and it would be a token of respect).

I hope I've been able to address your points. I am not far along the Sikh path and others may be able to answer more succinctly.

Ishna

 

[Shanger]

Dear Shanger ji

Welcome to the board. I will attempt to answer your questions from my own point of view.

Thanks

1. I don't think God wants us to sing Its praises because It likes to hear them, but because it elevates the human conscience by focusing it on totally awesome qualities, brings peace to your mind enabling you to live a higher Truth and be a better person. It help a person link themselves to God spiritually so they might merge with God once this physical life has passed.

I don't see how singing praise can elevate the human concious/enable you to be a better person any more than doing good deeds such as charity work, helping others etc. Wouldn't living a life with good morals be sufficient?

2. Where have you got the idea that God is happy and rewards us for good deeds, and is angry and punishes us for our bad ones? We reward or punish ourselves with nearness or separatedness from God.

I could be wrong but I thought that sikhs beleive that if you live a good life you get reincarnated at a higher level (or reach salvation if you live a fairly perfect life), and if you live a bad life you carry on through the cycle possibly in a lower ranking form.

3. Where have you got the idea that God has emotions in the same way humans do? God is beyond human comprehension (even declaring It beyond comprehension falls short), and I don't think anyone can say whether It feels, or if It feels in the same way humans do.

To react to actions of humans in such a way as I just described above does not seem beyond human comprehension.

4. I don't think the Sikh conception of God is necessarily an interfering force. It is not a deity in the same sense that Jehova (Christain God) is, or any other deity I've come across (including Allah). It is an energy, not a person with a human personality. Guru Nanak was enlightened, had realised God, his light was SO BRIGHT because his connection to God was so strong. If others in the world were able to achieve that state of mind then they would probably have come to similar conclusions. It just so happens that Guru Nanak in India figured it out first!

I can't really respond to this as I do not know enough about Guru Nanak. How would you describe his state of mind though?

I'm at work and can't supply quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (you might like to capitalise Granth please as you are addressing Sikhs who value their sacred scripture very highly and it would be a token of respect).

I hope I've been able to address your points. I am not far along the Sikh path and others may be able to answer more succinctly.

Ishna

Ok I'll use caps, and thanks for the response.

 

[spnadmin]

No use of all caps please. If that is what you are talking about. It is a breach of forum etiquette and looks like screaming. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is fine - upper and lower case.

Thanks, spnadmin

 

[findingmyway]

Dear Shanger Ji,
I'll give your questions a go though I think Ishna Ji captured the essence very well.

I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.


1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.

Good deeds and a moral life are most definitely important. If you are not a good person, all the hymns in the world won't help you. However, the purpose of prayer and singing kirtan is not for the benefit of God but for our own benefit. By focussing on the divine we are less easily seduced by influences trying to take us away from a good and spiritual path. By focussing on Waheguru, we are more likely to imbibe His good qualities, eg loving all, tolerance, standing up for the downtrodden. It also stops us wasting our time on useless pursuits that do not help us further ourselves. It also helps you learn the teachings as unless we understand our instructions how can we follow them to become good people and good Sikhs? Also by praying we realise that all is in God's will and that is very humbling so it stops you thinking above your station.

2] Similarly, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). This again conflicts with the idea of god imo, if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy.

The concept of God in Sikhism is all loving as God has created all and is in each and every one of us. If He hates us then He hates Himslef too. BTW God is not a person but humans are lacking language to express it any other way. Many Sikhs believe the reincarnation references are relating to within this lifetime. When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life. When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support. That is also how we create our own heaven and hell on Earth. It is humans who punish-others and ourselves (sometimes unfairly which accounts for all the bad things on Earth).

3] If you want to believe that there is a god and he does show emotion, then why would he enable himself to feel emotion? Or create something which he has no control over that could affect his emotion? For example I wouldnt put my cat in a box with a dog because even tho its gully it might still get killed, there is a chance that cats and dogs get along but why would I take that chance?

The only emotion belonging to God is love and compassion. We should endeavour to make these the primary emotions in ourselves too. God is not human so therefore human characteristics do not apply. We are a small portion of His creation and that is a very humbling thought.

4] Sikhism involves the gurus, who were in INDIA. Therefore the msg of sikhism first came to a section of the world. What about the rest of the world? Are they just unlucky/have to wait till the next life? If god really did want to make his message known, why not utilise some better form of communication where he could get his message across, after all he is god and the creator right? Does it not seem weird that god would make so little effort to become known and have one universal religion, and in fact rely on human gurus to carry out the huge task of spreading the word of his existence?

The Guru's travelled extensively so the message was never only in India.
God is using a wonderful form of communication and Sikhi is spreading further now with the internet and media and many other tools at its disposal. There were other enlightened people too in the past but their messages got distorted over time by people. The Guru's were smart enough to know this happens so they wrote down their teachings firsthand so power crazy men couldn't distort their teachings. They also made sure that we don't have anymore living Guru's so the message would not be distorted for personal gain. Therefore, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to a living Guru and is therefore much more than a holy book for us-it is our teacher and mentor, our leader and spiritual guide.

5] Finally the hindu gods are mentioned, are sikhs expected to believe that the hindu gods existed, like a human with an elephant head etc?

Please do not link me to articles from scholars and just reply to me yourself, and include granth quotes if necessary.

Thanks

They were used as examples to teach lessons so ordinary people could understand. Education at that time was not widespread so the Guru's used the mythological stories as a means of communication. It does not mean we believe in them. Equally the Guru's have also used examples from other faiths and cultures depending on where they were when those shabads (hymns) were written. Again it does not endorse all those beliefs but they are used as analogies/illustrations. You need to read the entire shabad to understand the context-never look at single lines.

Best wishes in your quest for knowledge. Any more questions please feel free to ask,
Jasleen :happykaur:

 

[Ishna]

Hi Shanger ji, thanks for responding. I hope I can clarify. Findingmyway has already provided extrapolation so I'll (try to!) be brief.

I don't see how singing praise can elevate the human concious/enable you to be a better person any more than doing good deeds such as charity work, helping others etc. Wouldn't living a life with good morals be sufficient?

Living a moral life is very important. Singing praise helps you feel inspired to live a moral life. It gives you an idea how to live truthfully. It helps put your own tiny existence into context, makes you feel part of something bigger, and gives you strength in the face of that which would challenge your truthful living endeavours.

I could be wrong but I thought that sikhs beleive that if you live a good life you get reincarnated at a higher level (or reach salvation if you live a fairly perfect life), and if you live a bad life you carry on through the cycle possibly in a lower ranking form.

This concept has nothing to do with God deciding "Ishna, you've been a baaaaaad babysitter ('scuse Simpsons reference, hehehe!) and becuase of that I personally will see to it that you pay for it in your next life". If you are bad person, you will pay for it by missing out on linking with the Divine. If you subscribe to the concept of reincarnation in other lives (personally I do but I admit to not having researched this aspect thoroughly as I see it of little consequense to me personally as long as I'm trying my best to be a good person, whatever happens happens I figure) I still believe it is not God who personally decides your fate but the action of Karma which determines who/where/what you will be the next time around. God is without fear and without hatred (see Mul Mantar).

I can't really respond to this as I do not know enough about Guru Nanak. How would you describe his state of mind though?

In the first instance, read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and read Guru Nanak's shabads. You might also like to visit here and read a bit about Guru Nanak's life: The Sikh Religion, Volume 1 by Max Arthur MacAuliffe .

Ok I'll use caps, and thanks for the response.

I meant to use sentance case to capitalise the 'G' in Granth. Sorry I was not more specific.

Philosophy and spirituallity aren't things one can learn quickly. I'm still full of questions and there are many things I don't understand. I have researched Sikhi as much as I can over the years and it seems to me personally to be a reasonably logical and pure religion/spirituality. The rest I will learn in time if I have to.

I hope I've helped clarify my points.

Ishna

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

SINGING.........ah.......
taken to be mere "mouthing" accompanied by musical instruments..shiny attractive clothes, matching wajas, tablas, gatras, turbans and of course the ebst lighting and stage decor and satellite broadcasting...and what not....
ITS NOT. This is a tiny tiny part of what "singing" means..

IN Gurbani..the Divine Message..meant to be SUNG...the word SINGING means PRACTISE...as in the English langauge METAPHORS..."sing the Obama Tune..Singh Obamas Praises..blah blah blah.." Its obvious that to sing the Obama Tune one is not required to have a waja and tabla or guitar....although it could be accomodated !! BUT the Practise and Active PROPOGATION of "OBAMA" (policies and all that stuff) is COMPULSORY.

IN GURBANI too..its the ACTIVE PARTICIPATION THROUGH REGULAR PERSONL PRACTISE..of the TEACHINGS OF GURBANI ...is whats meant to be..IS DUNIYA MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA !! I ma very very sure Guru Ji didnt mean that in the way of Satellite Broadcasting of Gurbani Kirtan Darbars and Mahaan Kirtan Samagams recorded LIVE on the best equipped stages, glittering lights, laser shows, shiny gold wajas and and all....................???? IS that HOW "Kirtan is Pardhaana..SUPREME " ??? Just yesterday i watched the Swami Ramanand Show (YOGA) on Satellite TV..He was dancing/Prancing on STAGE in front of a Live audience of YOGA practioners..and he was SINGING a SHABAD of Gurbani...while jumping up and down..and the Background showed pics of Guru nanak ji Guru gobind Singh Ji and lots of others Bhagwan Krishan Bhagwan Raam and even Mahatma Gandhi etc etc..To many that would also go as ..KIRTAN...SINGING the Praises of "god" and suppsoe that makes GOD so GLAD ???

IS JUGG MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA..means its the PRACTISE and FOLLOWING of the TEACHINGS of GURBANI that are PARDHAANA...that will CHANGE YOUR LIVES for the BETTER....SING "His Praises"..means FOLLOW in HIS FOOTSTEPS....which are for example...Treat all mankind as Brothers.... equals..worthy of all the love and respect..treat all Nature as YOUR OWN POSESSION..to be preserved..treasured for all...treat the poor and the downtrodden with Love and respect...SHARE and share alike with all..be HONEST...BE TRUTHFUL...BE KIND...1429 A3 Size Pages all FULL of "His Praises"..for us to follow...lets get the ingredients together..bake the Cake and EAT IT...THAAL WICH TEEN WASTOO PAIYEEO.....PRACTICAL WORK..not simply get a waja and tabla and SING the RECIPE !!! It will sound so musical..you may even go to sleep listening to the soothing sounds..BUT YOU WILL NEVER EAT THE CAKE..TASTE THE CAKE..BENEFIT FROM EATING THE CAKE...you will wake up HUNGRY !!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE !!! JIOS.....cheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleader

 

[Shanger]

Appreciate the replies, I will go through them one by one.

Dear Shanger Ji,
I'll give your questions a go though I think Ishna Ji captured the essence very well.

Thanks.

Good deeds and a moral life are most definitely important. If you are not a good person, all the hymns in the world won't help you. However, the purpose of prayer and singing kirtan is not for the benefit of God but for our own benefit. By focussing on the divine we are less easily seduced by influences trying to take us away from a good and spiritual path. By focussing on Waheguru, we are more likely to imbibe His good qualities, eg loving all, tolerance, standing up for the downtrodden. It also stops us wasting our time on useless pursuits that do not help us further ourselves. It also helps you learn the teachings as unless we understand our instructions how can we follow them to become good people and good Sikhs? Also by praying we realise that all is in God's will and that is very humbling so it stops you thinking above your station.

In my opinion the first part of what you have just said can translate to "we must pray to distract/keep ourselves busy so that we don't commit sins." Many people can successfully use their time constructively, and do not need to pray to help themselves become a better person. That time could be spent doing charity work or some other good deed, which would still be for our benefit in terms of being a better person.
I do agree that it is important to read the Granth as instructions are given, but why is there a need for such a large portion to be praises to god?

The concept of God in Sikhism is all loving as God has created all and is in each and every one of us. If He hates us then He hates Himslef too. BTW God is not a person but humans are lacking language to express it any other way. Many Sikhs believe the reincarnation references are relating to within this lifetime. When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life. When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support. That is also how we create our own heaven and hell on Earth. It is humans who punish-others and ourselves (sometimes unfairly which accounts for all the bad things on Earth).

Well I said that it appears that God rewards and punishes certain actions, from what you said it still seems to me that
"When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life." = good deed which pleases god so REWARD.
"When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support." = bad deed which god does not like so punishment.

The only emotion belonging to God is love and compassion. We should endeavour to make these the primary emotions in ourselves too. God is not human so therefore human characteristics do not apply. We are a small portion of His creation and that is a very humbling thought.

You didn't really answer that question, if the only emotion belonging to god is love and compassion then why would he create an earth which would have so much evil in it? If god has love for his creations then again that is like me putting my cat in a box with a dog. Also if god is god then he would have known that the world would be this way surely.

The Guru's travelled extensively so the message was never only in India.
God is using a wonderful form of communication and Sikhi is spreading further now with the internet and media and many other tools at its disposal. There were other enlightened people too in the past but their messages got distorted over time by people. The Guru's were smart enough to know this happens so they wrote down their teachings firsthand so power crazy men couldn't distort their teachings. They also made sure that we don't have anymore living Guru's so the message would not be distorted for personal gain. Therefore, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to a living Guru and is therefore much more than a holy book for us-it is our teacher and mentor, our leader and spiritual guide.

This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
1] were good people but do not follow any religion
2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism

They were used as examples to teach lessons so ordinary people could understand. Education at that time was not widespread so the Guru's used the mythological stories as a means of communication. It does not mean we believe in them. Equally the Guru's have also used examples from other faiths and cultures depending on where they were when those shabads (hymns) were written. Again it does not endorse all those beliefs but they are used as analogies/illustrations. You need to read the entire shabad to understand the context-never look at single lines.
Ok I will do.
Best wishes in your quest for knowledge. Any more questions please feel free to ask,
Jasleen :happykaur:

Big thanks for your reply brother.

 

[Shanger]

Hi Shanger ji, thanks for responding. I hope I can clarify. Findingmyway has already provided extrapolation so I'll (try to!) be brief.



Living a moral life is very important. Singing praise helps you feel inspired to live a moral life. It gives you an idea how to live truthfully. It helps put your own tiny existence into context, makes you feel part of something bigger, and gives you strength in the face of that which would challenge your truthful living endeavours.

But similarly just doing good deeds and living a live can make you feel inspired enough to live a moral life?

This concept has nothing to do with God deciding "Ishna, you've been a baaaaaad babysitter ('scuse Simpsons reference, hehehe!) and becuase of that I personally will see to it that you pay for it in your next life". If you are bad person, you will pay for it by missing out on linking with the Divine. If you subscribe to the concept of reincarnation in other lives (personally I do but I admit to not having researched this aspect thoroughly as I see it of little consequense to me personally as long as I'm trying my best to be a good person, whatever happens happens I figure) I still believe it is not God who personally decides your fate but the action of Karma which determines who/where/what you will be the next time around. God is without fear and without hatred (see Mul Mantar).

It seems to me that if you believe what you just wrote, you believe that karma is a body/law which can do things that either god can't do or can't prevent?

In the first instance, read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and read Guru Nanak's shabads. You might also like to visit here and read a bit about Guru Nanak's life: The Sikh Religion, Volume 1 by Max Arthur MacAuliffe .

Thank you I will read.

I meant to use sentance case to capitalise the 'G' in Granth. Sorry I was not more specific.

Philosophy and spirituallity aren't things one can learn quickly. I'm still full of questions and there are many things I don't understand. I have researched Sikhi as much as I can over the years and it seems to me personally to be a reasonably logical and pure religion/spirituality. The rest I will learn in time if I have to.

I hope I've helped clarify my points.

Ishna

I have follow up questions on your reply, thanks for the response brother.

 

[Shanger]

SINGING.........ah.......
taken to be mere "mouthing" accompanied by musical instruments..shiny attractive clothes, matching wajas, tablas, gatras, turbans and of course the ebst lighting and stage decor and satellite broadcasting...and what not....
ITS NOT. This is a tiny tiny part of what "singing" means..

IN Gurbani..the Divine Message..meant to be SUNG...the word SINGING means PRACTISE...as in the English langauge METAPHORS..."sing the Obama Tune..Singh Obamas Praises..blah blah blah.." Its obvious that to sing the Obama Tune one is not required to have a waja and tabla or guitar....although it could be accomodated !! BUT the Practise and Active PROPOGATION of "OBAMA" (policies and all that stuff) is COMPULSORY.

IN GURBANI too..its the ACTIVE PARTICIPATION THROUGH REGULAR PERSONL PRACTISE..of the TEACHINGS OF GURBANI ...is whats meant to be..IS DUNIYA MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA !! I ma very very sure Guru Ji didnt mean that in the way of Satellite Broadcasting of Gurbani Kirtan Darbars and Mahaan Kirtan Samagams recorded LIVE on the best equipped stages, glittering lights, laser shows, shiny gold wajas and and all....................???? IS that HOW "Kirtan is Pardhaana..SUPREME " ??? Just yesterday i watched the Swami Ramanand Show (YOGA) on Satellite TV..He was dancing/Prancing on STAGE in front of a Live audience of YOGA practioners..and he was SINGING a SHABAD of Gurbani...while jumping up and down..and the Background showed pics of Guru nanak ji Guru gobind Singh Ji and lots of others Bhagwan Krishan Bhagwan Raam and even Mahatma Gandhi etc etc..To many that would also go as ..KIRTAN...SINGING the Praises of "god" and suppsoe that makes GOD so GLAD ???

So you're saying that the aim of praise is to use the singing as a method to practise the message of the Granth, so that the message can be passed on and better remembered/utilised?

IS JUGG MEHN KIRTAN PARDHAANA..means its the PRACTISE and FOLLOWING of the TEACHINGS of GURBANI that are PARDHAANA...that will CHANGE YOUR LIVES for the BETTER....SING "His Praises"..means FOLLOW in HIS FOOTSTEPS....which are for example...Treat all mankind as Brothers.... equals..worthy of all the love and respect..treat all Nature as YOUR OWN POSESSION..to be preserved..treasured for all...treat the poor and the downtrodden with Love and respect...SHARE and share alike with all..be HONEST...BE TRUTHFUL...BE KIND...1429 A3 Size Pages all FULL of "His Praises"..for us to follow...lets get the ingredients together..bake the Cake and EAT IT...THAAL WICH TEEN WASTOO PAIYEEO.....PRACTICAL WORK..not simply get a waja and tabla and SING the RECIPE !!! It will sound so musical..you may even go to sleep listening to the soothing sounds..BUT YOU WILL NEVER EAT THE CAKE..TASTE THE CAKE..BENEFIT FROM EATING THE CAKE...you will wake up HUNGRY !!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE !!! JIOS.....cheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleader

So am I write in saying that the purpose of praise are to install the values such as equality, giving to charity etc into us humans?

Thanks for your reply it was very informative.

 

[findingmyway]

In my opinion the first part of what you have just said can translate to "we must pray to distract/keep ourselves busy so that we don't commit sins." Many people can successfully use their time constructively, and do not need to pray to help themselves become a better person. That time could be spent doing charity work or some other good deed, which would still be for our benefit in terms of being a better person.
I do agree that it is important to read the Granth as instructions are given, but why is there a need for such a large portion to be praises to god?

Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them! The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is guidance and instructive but is not prescriptive. The importance for a unique identity came from history and is a way of showing commitment and not running away from standing up for the downtrodden.

Well I said that it appears that God rewards and punishes certain actions, from what you said it still seems to me that
"When a person moves towards the spiritual path and connects to Waheguru, they are reborn as a new person in a new life." = good deed which pleases god so REWARD.
"When they get seduced by maya (bad influences) they die spiritually as they move away from God, their support." = bad deed which god does not like so punishment.

NO! God does not punish/reward, you do that yourself. Imagine your wife. You love her and hate to be away from her. When you feel distanced from her then you hurt inside. Especially if this distnace is emotional, eg you have been tempted away for a few seconds in your mind you feel guilty or you have indulged in something she doesn't like. She does not punish you, likely she will forgive but you punish yourself!

You didn't really answer that question, if the only emotion belonging to god is love and compassion then why would he create an earth which would have so much evil in it? If god has love for his creations then again that is like me putting my cat in a box with a dog. Also if god is god then he would have known that the world would be this way surely.

God gave us free will. It is us abusing that free will that causes so much misery in the world. People keep blaming God for their own actions. Equally with God's free will many help those who are suffering. People always seem to focus on the negative but there is also positive working to balancing that out. God is not a puppet master so we have to decide which way we are going to go and our Guru helps us do that-to harness our energy and ability for good.

This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
1] were good people but do not follow any religion
2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji says we can never know what happens after death so lets focus on our life and make it count. The Guru's when alive always preached if you are a Hindu be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim be a good Muslim. Sikhi is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is the only religion that has had people die to defend others right to choose their own faith system. All of our history we have been fighting for freedom and that is the most amazing thing about Sikhi. The Guru's were imprisoned and martyred for Hindus-to stop them being converted to anything else against their will. We serve humanity, not just our own.

Big thanks for your reply brother.

You most welcome but I think you mean sister

 

[findingmyway]

Shanger Ji,
I would also like to add that Sikhi is a highly spiritual path. It is about realising the wonder of God and connecting to God. It is about becoming so strong and peaceful inside that you can face anything in life in a positive way. Our 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji was tortured and martyred. During the torture he would have been in immense physical pain but it didn't affect him mentally. He said to God, whatever is your will is sweet for me. Sikhi is about developing the conviction of right and wrong that you can do anything for good of this world with a smile. Sikhi is about controlling your emotions so they don't cloud your judgment and Sikhi is about knowing/feeling that you are never alone as God is always with you.
kudihugkaurhugmundahug

 

[Ishna]

Dear Shanger ji

Thank you for continuing the conversation. When you ask questions like this is gives us a chance to examine our own beliefs and question if we actually do have it "right" in our own minds.

But similarly just doing good deeds and living a live can make you feel inspired enough to live a moral life?

I'm with findingmyway on this one: if living morally and going good deeds is inspirational enough to you, then excellent. But for many people, it isn't. Personally, I would say I don't have many problems being a "good person, but sometimes there are areas I need help in -- controlling my anger, being polite to someone when they are rude to me, being tolerant and patient, being compassionate, and being inspired and humbled by reading/singing/praying about God helps me to be in the right mindset to overcome those challenges.

It seems to me that if you believe what you just wrote, you believe that karma is a body/law which can do things that either god can't do or can't prevent?

My view here might be a bit contrary to other Sikhs, but I don't think God really cares about humans, and even less about humans one-to-one. God doesn't look at me personally and judge or direct. When I perceive myself connecting to the Divine, I'm filled with feelings of love and bliss and awe and wellbeing. This is my experience, so I conclude this must be the stuff which God is made up of. Or at least, what is generated by connecting to It.

I view karma as a law like gravity or synchronisity or the way the wind blows. I don't think God has a hand in those forces. They are there and they do their thing as part of the wonderful myraid of creation. I think karma is a part of that.

This is a reasonable answer, as I am still learning, may I please ask what the Granth says will happen to people who die who during their life
1] were good people but do not follow any religion
2] were good people but follow a religion other than sikhism

This is an awesome question! I don't know the answer, and look forward to other's responses.

On a strictly personal note, with the disclaimer that I am still relatively new to Sikhi, haven't read too much of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (I read what I can and try to understand but it is a slow process for me), my thoughts are that at the end of the day we're all humans (there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, there is no Sikh or Christian or Buddhist or Scientologist), and it is our truthful living (or not) which will direct our futures in the end. You don't have to be a Sikh to attain enlightenment. Sikhi is the toolkit you use to help you on your way to being a good person. It gives you tips on what to do, strengthens your character, inspires you to be a good person and make good choices. If someone can get all that out of a religion whose holy book (instead of being full of praise for the Creator) is a list of instructions on who is chosen and who is not, who should be punished or rewarded, who can be controlled, and justifies actions which aren't good, then good luck luck to that person, and they'll achieve the ultimate goal of unity with the Divine.

From what I've learned so far, Sikhi is the easiest toolkit to use.

I look forward to your replies and other frank and mind-opening questions, Shanger ji! cheerleader

Ishna

 

[davinderdhanjal]

I've only started reading the granth recently, and I'm not very far but I have some questions.


1] sikhism require you to pray to god, implying that god wants you to pray to him. Wanting to be praised is a human trait, and surely god is something much greater than human emotions etc, so why would he need/want praise from mere humans? This to me suggests a narcissist quality that one would not expect from a force greater/responsible for creating everything.


2] Similarly, this suggests that god will react to the actions of humans emotionally, meaning he will be pleased with some actions (acting good, praying) and angry at other actions (adultery, dishonesty etc). This again conflicts with the idea of god imo, if god is the creator and something which we cannot possibly ever understand as he is out of our realm, then how is it possible for us to affect him, let alone be able to make him angry/happy.

3] If you want to believe that there is a god and he does show emotion, then why would he enable himself to feel emotion? Or create something which he has no control over that could affect his emotion? For example I wouldnt put my cat in a box with a dog because even tho its gully it might still get killed, there is a chance that cats and dogs get along but why would I take that chance?

4] Sikhism involves the gurus, who were in INDIA. Therefore the msg of sikhism first came to a section of the world. What about the rest of the world? Are they just unlucky/have to wait till the next life? If god really did want to make his message known, why not utilise some better form of communication where he could get his message across, after all he is god and the creator right? Does it not seem weird that god would make so little effort to become known and have one universal religion, and in fact rely on human gurus to carry out the huge task of spreading the word of his existence?

5] Finally the hindu gods are mentioned, are sikhs expected to believe that the hindu gods existed, like a human with an elephant head etc?

Please do not link me to articles from scholars and just reply to me yourself, and include granth quotes if necessary.

Thanks

Dear Shanger
I will try explaining the predicament in a way a simple mind like mine sees it.
Mool Manter is a good description of god. Basically pointing you towards seeking 'truth'
I believe the deffinition of god as 'infinity' falls in that catagory. You may check it on the net but goes something like 'the whole is a part of itself'
Assume the lord as 'infinite number of souls' - every person (all life in fact) has a part of this 'infinite' in them. So you are ' part of god' you have all the abilities that he has if you can find the truth. Guru Nanak tried to open the eyes of people to this and obviously succeeded as you are looking for it too.
As the lord has created All and can do Anything - it now is in our control to follow a direction where we track a path which other millions of people are also treading but ensure that we do not hurt eachother.
Now imagine what is at stake - there are 6 billion people not to mention animals who are also a part of HIM and we should not hurt eachother!
The LORD understands it and says I will help and sends people like Guru Nanak to show us the way. Even he did not have an easy time but at least he did his best as we know.
Now the problem comes of how we interpret what he said - rather than make it very complicated and lose our way just do what he says - look for truth.
If you spend all your time reading the Granth Sahib all your energy goes to understand it - by using HIS given ability you try to be 'true to youself and to god' - can you see how well you are bound and how little freedom you have to be BAD?
Once this stage is reached there is a mine of all our Gurus' experiances in The Granth Sahib that would help if it is necessary.
If anything above makes sense then you can see god does not need to be praised he will praise you for playing your part!
Bhul chuck Maff Karni

 

[Shanger]

Thanks for replies I am reading them now.

Charity work is a type of praying as you are working to look after God's creation. One of the 3 pillars of Sikhi is seva-selfless service. As Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji said, kirtan is not just singing His praises but following advice in the Granth Sahib to become a better person. If someone stays on the right path without guidance, good for them! The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is guidance and instructive but is not prescriptive. The importance for a unique identity came from history and is a way of showing commitment and not running away from standing up for the downtrodden.

Ok that makes sense and is fair enough.

NO! God does not punish/reward, you do that yourself. Imagine your wife. You love her and hate to be away from her. When you feel distanced from her then you hurt inside. Especially if this distnace is emotional, eg you have been tempted away for a few seconds in your mind you feel guilty or you have indulged in something she doesn't like. She does not punish you, likely she will forgive but you punish yourself!

I guess you're right in saying that since we choose our actions we choose our fate.

God gave us free will. It is us abusing that free will that causes so much misery in the world. People keep blaming God for their own actions. Equally with God's free will many help those who are suffering. People always seem to focus on the negative but there is also positive working to balancing that out. God is not a puppet master so we have to decide which way we are going to go and our Guru helps us do that-to harness our energy and ability for good.

But surely God being God will know EVERYTHING, meaning God knows everything that will happen since god created everything. So by allowing humans to have free-will god will have been aware of the evils that were inevitable. So why would he allow this?



The Guru Granth Sahib Ji says we can never know what happens after death so lets focus on our life and make it count. The Guru's when alive always preached if you are a Hindu be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim be a good Muslim. Sikhi is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is the only religion that has had people die to defend others right to choose their own faith system. All of our history we have been fighting for freedom and that is the most amazing thing about Sikhi. The Guru's were imprisoned and martyred for Hindus-to stop them being converted to anything else against their will. We serve humanity, not just our own.



You most welcome but I think you mean sister [/QUOTE]

I see, that is very tolerant. But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?

Thanks for reply Sister

 

[Shanger]

Shanger Ji,
I would also like to add that Sikhi is a highly spiritual path. It is about realising the wonder of God and connecting to God. It is about becoming so strong and peaceful inside that you can face anything in life in a positive way. Our 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji was tortured and martyred. During the torture he would have been in immense physical pain but it didn't affect him mentally. He said to God, whatever is your will is sweet for me. Sikhi is about developing the conviction of right and wrong that you can do anything for good of this world with a smile. Sikhi is about controlling your emotions so they don't cloud your judgment and Sikhi is about knowing/feeling that you are never alone as God is always with you.
kudihugkaurhugmundahug

That is very inspiring, but I have always been curious about the validity of such events. I don't doubt that the Gurus were fantastic men of great character and morals, but I wouldn't expect anyone to believe that humans could deal with torture like that without good proof.

Also I'm not sure if this involved a Guru or a sikh warrior, but I saw/read something else about a sikh who carried on fighting after his head was cut off etc. Is that believed to be true?

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

Dear Shanger ji

Thank you for continuing the conversation. When you ask questions like this is gives us a chance to examine our own beliefs and question if we actually do have it "right" in our own minds.



I'm with findingmyway on this one: if living morally and going good deeds is inspirational enough to you, then excellent. But for many people, it isn't. Personally, I would say I don't have many problems being a "good person, but sometimes there are areas I need help in -- controlling my anger, being polite to someone when they are rude to me, being tolerant and patient, being compassionate, and being inspired and humbled by reading/singing/praying about God helps me to be in the right mindset to overcome those challenges.

Thanks too.

Yeah that makes sense.

My view here might be a bit contrary to other Sikhs, but I don't think God really cares about humans, and even less about humans one-to-one. God doesn't look at me personally and judge or direct. When I perceive myself connecting to the Divine, I'm filled with feelings of love and bliss and awe and wellbeing. This is my experience, so I conclude this must be the stuff which God is made up of. Or at least, what is generated by connecting to It.

I view karma as a law like gravity or synchronisity or the way the wind blows. I don't think God has a hand in those forces. They are there and they do their thing as part of the wonderful myraid of creation. I think karma is a part of that.

If God doesn't have an interest in humans then what else is there in this world for god to have an interest in?
Also if God is the creator, then he would of created karma and/or any law in the universe as well don't you think?

This is an awesome question! I don't know the answer, and look forward to other's responses.

On a strictly personal note, with the disclaimer that I am still relatively new to Sikhi, haven't read too much of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (I read what I can and try to understand but it is a slow process for me), my thoughts are that at the end of the day we're all humans (there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, there is no Sikh or Christian or Buddhist or Scientologist), and it is our truthful living (or not) which will direct our futures in the end. You don't have to be a Sikh to attain enlightenment. Sikhi is the toolkit you use to help you on your way to being a good person. It gives you tips on what to do, strengthens your character, inspires you to be a good person and make good choices. If someone can get all that out of a religion whose holy book (instead of being full of praise for the Creator) is a list of instructions on who is chosen and who is not, who should be punished or rewarded, who can be controlled, and justifies actions which aren't good, then good luck luck to that person, and they'll achieve the ultimate goal of unity with the Divine.

From what I've learned so far, Sikhi is the easiest toolkit to use.

I look forward to your replies and other frank and mind-opening questions, Shanger ji! cheerleader

Ishna

I see, but I'm pretty sure nearly every other religious book is full of praise for the creator (if there is one) too.

You made a similar point to findingmyway regarding people who are god but follow another religion so I will ask the same question for your view-


"But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?"

Thanks for response

 

[Shanger]

Dear Shanger
I will try explaining the predicament in a way a simple mind like mine sees it.
Mool Manter is a good description of god. Basically pointing you towards seeking 'truth'
I believe the deffinition of god as 'infinity' falls in that catagory. You may check it on the net but goes something like 'the whole is a part of itself'
Assume the lord as 'infinite number of souls' - every person (all life in fact) has a part of this 'infinite' in them. So you are ' part of god' you have all the abilities that he has if you can find the truth.

Hello.

Ok I can accept that a part of God is inside us since he created us but-

I would have to disagree that we have all the abilities god has if we find the truth, if God is the creator then he can do anything, from miracles to changing the laws of physics if he pleases etc. I don't think a human can do this.

Guru Nanak tried to open the eyes of people to this and obviously succeeded as you are looking for it too.
As the lord has created All and can do Anything - it now is in our control to follow a direction where we track a path which other millions of people are also treading but ensure that we do not hurt eachother.
Now imagine what is at stake - there are 6 billion people not to mention animals who are also a part of HIM and we should not hurt eachother!

But why should we have to go on this journey? If God is god then he will know what will happen to us, whether we make it or not, whether we become corrupted along the way etc. It is not unreasonable in my opinion to expect God to predict the future since he created everything including concepts such as time.
Or supposing for some reason god cannot predict the future, does that make human life a kind of movie or experiment?

Once this stage is reached there is a mine of all our Gurus' experiances in The Granth Sahib that would help if it is necessary.
If anything above makes sense then you can see god does not need to be praised he will praise you for playing your part!
Bhul chuck Maff Karni

Thanks for reply, look forward to response

 

[findingmyway]

But surely God being God will know EVERYTHING, meaning God knows everything that will happen since god created everything. So by allowing humans to have free-will god will have been aware of the evils that were inevitable. So why would he allow this?

Who knows!! Without the bad we cannot appreciate the good. If there was no bad, there would be no free will. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live as a puppet! When bad happens, that is when true goodness also shines through, eg volunteers, aid workers.

I see, that is very tolerant. But "good" to what standard? I'll try not to sway way off-topic but if there was a religion that encouraged hatred and killing of non-believers for example, the people who did all that would be good followers of their religion, but not good people according to our standards. How do we decide where to draw the line?
For example I know some peaceful muslims, yet they will have babies (who cannot consent to anything) circumsized etc. That is a form of harm but they believe they are doing it for a good cause, what is the sikh view on how such act will be judged by God?
Thanks for reply Sister

Good is when doing good for others and standing up against wrong. Religion is there to bring people together and provide internal peace/spiritual guidance. People who use religion to justify other things are often just using it as an excuse. I cant comment on circumcision as although I personally don't condone it, it does no longterm harm. Female genital mutilation as frequently carried out in Africa on the other hand, is painful lifelong as well as causing other damage. That is something I have campaigned against. God does not judge-God is not a person. People judge. People who do wrong things don't acheive the ultimate peace/spirituality that we aim for-they get sidetracked by distractions.

In response to your some of your other comments; when the laws were created by God, when the laws of physics are God, why should they change?!! God is not a person or entity but is present throughout creation. This is a difficult concept to get aaround if you are used to the personifcation of God in other religions. Again why predict the future. Even if God can predict the future (but God is the future) then why? What would it achieve? God is the wind in the leaves. God is the waterfall you admire. God is in everything!

I also suggest you do some reading about martyrdom in the Sikh history section. If you do a search for Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Baba Deep Singh or Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji you will get your answers. Bear in mind that our history is less than 600 years old so there are reliable eyewitness accounts -it is fact not mythology. If you still have questions, feel free to ask.
Jasleen.

 

[Shanger]

Who knows!! Without the bad we cannot appreciate the good. If there was no bad, there would be no free will. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live as a puppet! When bad happens, that is when true goodness also shines through, eg volunteers, aid workers.

Using "without the bad we cannot appreciate the good" cannot justify the fact that God allowed or created an environment mixing good and bad people in my view. Also that could be used as an excuse for many things, such as I could hurt someone physically so that when they heal they feel better and appreciate not being hurt any more. Also many people live such lives that they have no good to appreciate.

Good is when doing good for others and standing up against wrong. Religion is there to bring people together and provide internal peace/spiritual guidance. People who use religion to justify other things are often just using it as an excuse. I cant comment on circumcision as although I personally don't condone it, it does no longterm harm. Female genital mutilation as frequently carried out in Africa on the other hand, is painful lifelong as well as causing other damage. That is something I have campaigned against. God does not judge-God is not a person. People judge. People who do wrong things don't acheive the ultimate peace/spirituality that we aim for-they get sidetracked by distractions.

If God does not judge then there is no point in religion. However my view of Sikhi suggests god does judge, as it is believed that you become closer to god by being a good person, and you beocme further away when you are bad, it's semantics really.

In response to your some of your other comments; when the laws were created by God, when the laws of physics are God, why should they change?!! God is not a person or entity but is present throughout creation. This is a difficult concept to get aaround if you are used to the personifcation of God in other religions. Again why predict the future. Even if God can predict the future (but God is the future) then why? What would it achieve? God is the wind in the leaves. God is the waterfall you admire. God is in everything!

What I am saying is that, God being the creator of everything in this universe, can not be surprised as he has made everything if he is god. He will know what is going to happen, so is there even a point of having free-will? For example God puts me on the planet, he knows where I will end up. Or are you suggesting that if I went from a bad person to a good person God will change his plans/overall view of me?

I also suggest you do some reading about martyrdom in the Sikh history section. If you do a search for Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Baba Deep Singh or Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji or Bhai Mani Singh Ji you will get your answers. Bear in mind that our history is less than 600 years old so there are reliable eyewitness accounts -it is fact not mythology. If you still have questions, feel free to ask.
Jasleen.

Ok will do, thanks.