A Consideration Of Idol Worship

[Kamala]

Firstly this isn't supposed to offend anyone.

Okay so I know how you guys say Idol worship is bad because its praying to a rock, but it's not about praying to the rock. It's about praying to the Devi/Dev who represents the rock. The only reason they pray to it is because the "rock" shows the whole devi/dev and is 3D and you can see them way clearly than a photo. I also don't understand why in most gurdwaras the granthi calls God "Gopal" sometimes when that is Krishna's name and Hindus call him Gopal and call him god at the same time. So it gets pretty confusing to me. Also about the dairy thread, it won't make a big difference if you change you're life style and it's about the "you not standing for this" not about "we can change it". Also isn't bowing down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like Idol worship? Like it's a manifestation of a guru, now don't argue its a guru because its not a human per say.

Dairy Thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ols-who-wrangle-over-flesh-78.html#post146972

Thanks

 

[BhagatSingh]

Re: Idol worship consideration?

Numbers ji,
I don't think anyone says worshipping idols is bad. That is one aspect of creation. People emphasize other aspects of creation.

The enlightened Kabir ji, in this shabad, emphasizes how there is lots of attention given to idols, the "malini" gives no attention to the leaves in which Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh also reside.

More deeply we see that we should give attention to everything in balance.
ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ੯ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੫
आसा स्री कबीर जीउ के पंचपदे ९ दुतुके ५
Āsā sarī Kabīr jī▫o ke pancẖpaḏe 9 ḏuṯuke 5
Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padas, 5 Du-Tukas:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
पाती तोरै मालिनी पाती पाती जीउ ॥
Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī▫o.
You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.
ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1||
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||
ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥
भूली मालनी है एउ ॥
Bẖūlī mālnī hai e▫o.
In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सतिगुरु जागता है देउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏe▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਡਾਰੀ ਫੂਲ ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ ॥
ब्रहमु पाती बिसनु डारी फूल संकरदेउ ॥
Barahm pāṯī bisan dārī fūl sankarḏe▫o.
Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.
ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥੨॥
तीनि देव प्रतखि तोरहि करहि किस की सेउ ॥२॥
Ŧīn ḏev parṯakẖ ṯorėh karahi kis kī se▫o. ||2||
When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||
ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥
पाखान गढि कै मूरति कीन्ही दे कै छाती पाउ ॥
Pākẖān gadẖ kai mūraṯ kīnĥī ḏe kai cẖẖāṯī pā▫o.
The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.
ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥
जे एह मूरति साची है तउ गड़्हणहारे खाउ ॥३॥
Je eh mūraṯ sācẖī hai ṯa▫o gaṛĥaṇhāre kẖā▫o. ||3||
If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||
ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ ॥
भातु पहिति अरु लापसी करकरा कासारु ॥
Bẖāṯ pahiṯ ar lāpsī karkarā kāsār.
Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies -
ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
भोगनहारे भोगिआ इसु मूरति के मुख छारु ॥४॥
Bẖoganhāre bẖogi▫ā is mūraṯ ke mukẖ cẖẖār. ||4||
the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||
ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
मालिनि भूली जगु भुलाना हम भुलाने नाहि ॥
Mālin bẖūlī jag bẖulānā ham bẖulāne nāhi.
The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥
कहु कबीर हम राम राखे क्रिपा करि हरि राइ ॥५॥१॥१४॥
Kaho Kabīr ham rām rākẖe kirpā kar har rā▫e. ||5||1||14||
Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Idol worship consideration?

what Kabir Ji is trying to put across is that even when a Living leaf/flower is WASTED by putting it before a lifeless stone idol..wouldnt a HUMAN LIFE also be WASTED..worshipping the same stone idol..a complete waste of time and energy. Period.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Idol worship consideration?

:noticekudi:

Sikh Philosophy Network is being generous by permitting this thread to return to the main forum. Let me start by thanking Gyani Jarnail Singh Arshi for his concise and precise explanation of the shabad posted by Bhagat Singh ji.

The subject of idolatry in Sikhi is important enough for a discussion. The subject of idolatry in Sikhi is also too important to turn the thread into a superficial conversation that one might have in a tea room on a weekend afternoon.

The opening comments by the thread starter disclose confusion about many things. I will limit my observations as follows: 1) saying that the, "rock" shows the whole devi/dev and is 3D and you can see them way clearly than a photo, works only if you follow a path that adheres to worship/reverence of idols; 2) referring to Gopal in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in no way proves that Akaal has assumed the name or form of Gopal or any other Hindu devi/devta; 3) bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is neither a ritual nor a form of idolatry. To say these things suggests a sorry need for better Gurmat education. A good place to start would be Guru Granth Sahib Academy in Brampton, where wonderful gurmat courses are given online for free. http://www.gurugranthacademy.com. Please also consult the numerous, other threads on this subject here at SPN.

There will be rules for this discussion and if they are not followed then comments will be deleted by admin or forum moderators with no explanations given:

1. Shabads not tuks must be posted with Gurmukhi, English, and Ang number.
2. Shabads must be accompanied by the poster's understanding, so that we can all discuss his/her understanding.
3. Avoid comments that are so glib and open-ended they could mean anything. Or that can bounce the thread in an unrelated direction.
4. Do not post articles, links or videos that promote Sant Mat, sanatan dharma, or any new age perspective. If the thread is about idolatry and Sikhi, lets stay with Sikhi and not make Sikhi anything we wish it to be.
5. Before you post, consult some good writing on the philosophy of the bhagats, some of whom were devotees of Krishna and Vishnu. Try to understand what their message really was and why their hymns appear in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This thread, and/or any individual poster, may be placed under moderation at any time. Thank you.

 

[Ishna]

There might be some relevant information in this thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/9104-idolatry-of-sggs.html

 

[DrRavtej]

Firstly this isn't supposed to offend anyone.

Okay so I know how you guys say Idol worship is bad because its praying to a rock, but it's not about praying to the rock. It's about praying to the Devi/Dev who represents the rock. The only reason they pray to it is because the "rock" shows the whole devi/dev and is 3D and you can see them way clearly than a photo. I also don't understand why in most gurdwaras the granthi calls God "Gopal" sometimes when that is Krishna's name and Hindus call him Gopal and call him god at the same time. So it gets pretty confusing to me. Also about the dairy thread, it won't make a big difference if you change you're life style and it's about the "you not standing for this" not about "we can change it". Also isn't bowing down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like Idol worship? Like it's a manifestation of a guru, now don't argue its a guru because its not a human per say.

Dairy Thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ols-who-wrangle-over-flesh-78.html#post146972

Thanks

Dear Sir, when Sikhs bow down to SGGS ji it is not the paper or the ink we are bowing down our heads to but the divine bani of the Guru Sahib's and other great saints in it.
Yes you are right to say that SGGS ji is not a manifestation of Guru sahib's but indeed is a Guru as it is a teacher and preacher for practicing Sikhs.

Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth

 

[dalbirk]

Firstly this isn't supposed to offend anyone.

Okay so I know how you guys say Idol worship is bad because its praying to a rock, but it's not about praying to the rock. It's about praying to the Devi/Dev who represents the rock. The only reason they pray to it is because the "rock" shows the whole devi/dev and is 3D and you can see them way clearly than a photo. I also don't understand why in most gurdwaras the granthi calls God "Gopal" sometimes when that is Krishna's name and Hindus call him Gopal and call him god at the same time. So it gets pretty confusing to me. Also about the dairy thread, it won't make a big difference if you change you're life style and it's about the "you not standing for this" not about "we can change it". Also isn't bowing down to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like Idol worship? Like it's a manifestation of a guru, now don't argue its a guru because its not a human per say.

Dairy Thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ols-who-wrangle-over-flesh-78.html#post146972

Thanks

Forgive my bluntness , I wish to put in very clear cut words . Idol worship is bad because no Devi Devta was ever born or existed . The Devi devtas are creations of Brahmins who wrote Puranic mythological tales just to perpetuate human worship ( their own self worship ) , expeeded by the later generations of Brahmins . The modus operandi was like this the Brahmin used to propagate certain Devi Devta for fulfillment of CERTAIN WISH ( MAN MAANGI MURAAD) , the type of offering , the method ( Karam Kaand ) of worship . In the evening the same offering was gobbled by the very Brahmin , the self-made custodian of 330 million Devi devtas . This used to be practice till the Brahmin was alive , after his death his idol or picture took the form of Devi Devta (by his son ) , many times it was the king , queen or even princesses whose idol was placed before the devotee by the Brahmin . So an idol worship is infact nothing but self ( Human ) worship . Guru Nanak Dev ji got humanity out of this rut of human ( body ) worship by exposing this world to the concept of SHABADGURU ( WORD as teacher) following which we can achieve oneness with FORMLESS GOD whose qualities are described in MOOLMANTAR as " There is One Universal God ( for whole humanity ) whose name is truth ( He Does exist ) , Who is the Creator , Sustainer as well as the Destroyer ( Karta Purakh ) ,Sans Fear , Sans Hatred , Beyond the Realm of time ( does not grow old ), Does not Take birth or dies , Is Self Illuminated , Is achieved by the Grace of true Guru ( Shabad Guru/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji )"