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Why So Much Talk About Enemies?

Apr 25, 2006
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Ishna ji,

I have no arguments, just a few hints.

Khushwant Singh in this Book the History of Sikhs mentions how Guru Nanak's God was the protector of his devotees, whereas Guru Gobind Singh's God was the destroyer of those hostile to his devotees. He points out how these are flip-sides of the same coin, that is, they are saying the same thing in different ways. You don't have to take his word for it (I suggest you don't and find out yourself - meditation)

It was not too long ago that I realized that while it was good to analyze Guru's shabad, it was more important to just let the shabad sink in while putting focus in meditating, on Naam Japna, Simran. Repeat God's name and listen in before, during and after each repetition.

It's boring I know but if God was realized in parties or high-energy lifestyles then well, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If God was found through analyzing, then all the scientists and scholars of the world would be enlightened masters. Now he can be found here but quite rarely. our normal way of living is to seek out pleasurable experiences and to analyze everything before us. Clearly our normal way does not get us there.

Instead if we look at the enlightened people in India, they are finding God in stones, looking at the dead, in repetition of word(s), in paying attention to their breath, through low-energy singing and dancing and sometimes simply through Divine grace.

God is very subtle and so one must sharpen their ability to detect things at very low levels. In other words, meditate as often as you can, as you wait for things, as you wash the dishes, as you tend to your garden, at work, in the car, as you walk from one location to another etc.

I know you want to solve it out so you can relax, you want to understand things, you want to know, your want has made you restless - that is our nature. But see that troubling sensation as a gift from God. Let that uncertainty trouble you for as long as it does. Try to embrace it as it is without changing it.

Your hunger will not be satisfied no matter how much you feed it.
Your intelligence (thoughts, analysis, etc) will not help you in the end.
How can this illusion be torn apart and the truth be realized?
Nanak says truth is realized when one lives in harmony with the Hukam. (japji sahib)
 

Ishna

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Again another excellent post, thank you Bhagat ji.

I am rather headstrong and over analytical at most times, so thank you for reminding me that I need to pay attention (to listen), to meditate, and realise that direction is subtle. While my mind is banging the drums of discontent, I can't hear myself think straight let alone the even smaller voice of God.

I am embarrissed you had to remind me with the first pauri of Japji! Goes to show just how much attention I pay to bani numero uno! And here I am trying to run before I can walk,.

I think airing out my concerns here has helped make space in my mind now for me to breathe around this issue with more ease.

Thanks everyone. kudihug
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Perhaps this example will "help"............
Sajjan Thuggh..a confirmeed robber..murder of thousnads of innocents..Evil personified...CHANGED ...from Black to WHITE...THUGGH to SAJJANN...via just ONE SHABAD sung by Guur Nanak ji Sahib.........

2. By Contrast...the Top Most RELIGIOUS scholars, sidhs, yogis, sitting at the PEAK of dharma, religion, etc etc.....GURU NANAK JI had to write a LONG SHABAD..called the SIDDH GHHOST....many many Pages long.....

3. Lets come down to Practical....a UNBAKED ROTI...bread....will become cooked, fluffy and tasty enough to provide a Meal after a SHORT ROASTING on a hot skillet Tava !! (Sajjan Thuggh)................BUT a "ROTI" that ha sbeen BAKING/ROASTING on the Tava for Ages and ages...until its Burnt and Black and bitter....is beyond a reasonable "meal"....the Siddhs, Yogis and all were thus burnt rotis becasue they ahd sepnt lifetimes arguing and regurgitating religion/dharma..they ahd so much HANKAAR..that when they first set eyes on Guru nanak ji..they DISMISSED him as..OYE BALAK...oh CHILD !! Its NOT that Guru Ji who is by now Married and about age 30+= looks like a CHILD..its their Hankaar that we are Top Yogis, Siddhs with accomplished powers and all...this person standing ebfore us is a CHILD..a balak.........after a while the salutation changes !!..Now its No more OYE balak..its SWAMI JI....but the hankaar is still there....still further down the "discussion" road....the Salutation ebcomes AUDTHU...the salutation they use to address the TOP MOST YOGI/SIDDH among themsleves.....Sidh Ghost BEGINS with BALAK...proceeds to SWAMI JI..and towards the end its AUDTHU !!..........so theres a CHANGE..but it took an entire long shabad like Sidh ghost to bring about change in "ripe/established/ I KNOW I AM RIGHT !! types"....

Many of us....that think we are Gyanis, Missionaries, kathawachaks, granthis, jathedars, Bharam Gyanis, mahapurshs, baba Ji, etc ets..are like the BURNT ROTIS....we NEED the entire 1429 pages of SGGS to "change" and some dont even change then...and a newbie like Ishna Ji...may beat us to it just like Sajjan Thuggh beat the sidhs and yogis !! This si the CRUX of the matter...the ABILITY to ACCEPT the GURU ....unhesitatingly..unquestioningly...without duality..doubts...MATHA TEK !!! Leave MANMatt and take GURUMATT...but it seldom happens becasue we are so PROUD OF OUR MANMATT !!!
 
Apr 25, 2006
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Ishna ji, pay attention.
While my mind is banging the drums of discontent, I can't hear myself think straight let alone the even smaller voice of God.
Accept the "banging drums" as a gift from God. Accept your rejection of them as a gift from God. Accept the over-analytical mind that starts analyzing at different times as a gift from God. Acceptance is key. Let the God-created thing, be, as it is. God keeps on giving, he will give you all sorts of things. He will give you things at every moment. How much will you reject? How long can you keep on rejecting what he gives? Meditate on this.

-----------------------------------

Gyani ji, you are right. It's pretty easy to get attached to our knowledge of things, that in turn makes us proud and turns our face away from the Guru (even though me might think we have become more Gurmukh). This is something Sajjan thug did not have. so upon hearing Guru Nanak, he realized the Guru and turned his face towards Him permanently.

I would add that Hankaar is in the moment one thinks "I know something.", this is much more subtle... One's mind should be so low/gareeb that it does not even think that it possesses any knowledge. Once the mind is that gareeb, there is nothing in it left but God. One could say that when it loses that last bit of "I", it invites God to dwell in it. "God you know/do/are everything, I know/do/am nothing!" This has been the biggest challenge for me. Thinking that "I know" is so darn habitual!

ਗਉੜੀ
गउड़ी ॥
Ga▫oṛī.
Gauree:
ਪਾਨੀ ਮੈਲਾ ਮਾਟੀ ਗੋਰੀ
पानी मैला माटी गोरी ॥
Pānī mailā mātī gorī.
The water of the sperm is cloudy, and the egg of the ovary is crimson.
ਇਸ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੀ ਪੁਤਰੀ ਜੋਰੀ ॥੧॥
इस माटी की पुतरी जोरी ॥१॥
Is mātī kī puṯrī jorī. ||1||
From this clay, the puppet is fashioned. ||1||
ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਆਹਿ ਮੋਰਾ
मै नाही कछु आहि न मोरा ॥
Mai nāhī kacẖẖ āhi na morā.
I am nothing, and nothing is mine.
ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਰਸੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਤੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ

तनु धनु सभु रसु गोबिंद तोरा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ŧan ḏẖan sabẖ ras gobinḏ ṯorā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
This body, wealth, and all delicacies are Yours, O Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause||

ਇਸ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਹਿ ਪਵਨੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ
इस माटी महि पवनु समाइआ ॥
Is mātī mėh pavan samā▫i▫ā.
Into this clay, the breath is infused.
ਝੂਠਾ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਜੋਰਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
झूठा परपंचु जोरि चलाइआ ॥२॥
Jẖūṯẖā parpancẖ jor cẖalā▫i▫ā. ||2||
By Your Power, You have set this false contrivance in motion. ||2||
ਕਿਨਹੂ ਲਾਖ ਪਾਂਚ ਕੀ ਜੋਰੀ
किनहू लाख पांच की जोरी ॥
Kinhū lākẖ pāʼncẖ kī jorī.
Some collect hundreds of thousands of dollars,
ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬਾਰ ਗਗਰੀਆ ਫੋਰੀ ॥੩॥
अंत की बार गगरीआ फोरी ॥३॥
Anṯ kī bār gagrī▫ā forī. ||3||
but in the end, the pitcher of the body bursts. ||3||
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਕ ਨੀਵ ਉਸਾਰੀ
कहि कबीर इक नीव उसारी ॥
Kahi Kabīr ik nīv usārī.
Says Kabeer, that single foundation which you have laid
ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੯॥੬੦॥
खिन महि बिनसि जाइ अहंकारी ॥४॥१॥९॥६०॥
Kẖin mėh binas jā▫e ahaʼnkārī. ||4||1||9||60||
will be destroyed in an instant - you are so egotistical. ||4||1||9||60||
 

Navdeep88

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Dec 23, 2009
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Ishna Ji,

I've often wondered the same about why mention enemies? Isn't that a mark of insecurity? Doesn't God already KNOW? Why mention enemies and their motives amidst all the love and strength of God in prayer?

What I came up with is this: we have to deal with others, have to live the domestic life, we are told not to shut ourselves off. Although the intent of our interaction with others is to help others (sarbat da bhalla), however in dealing with others there are also some who are insecure and not content. Some do and will come after you. This could be jealous relatives, people who you don't even know, they will see that you are using your energy towards something other than contributing or worrying about the spectacle of worldly existence and try to pull you down. Their brains cant make peace with the fact that you don't value what they do, and if they don't have the strength to change, they wanna see you down. This is very real.

I think Guru Gobind Singh Ji dealt with this circumstance more than any previous Guru Ji's because at this point the panth was becoming solidified, it was becoming externally powerful... and of course, those who held power on a worldly platform wanted to taint the purity, to reduce, and to bestow their rules on Guru Ji. So it was out of NECESSITY, not insecurity or ill will that Guru Ji prayed for these "enemies" (the ill intent of others) to be destroyed. This is unfortunately a very real circumstance of life and so I think its legit to be a part of the daily prayers.

This "game face" soldier identity isn't just in Sikhism though, many faiths that have endured hold onto something similar. I don't know much about Christianity but I have come across "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at they right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee." When I read that, I thought "sava lakh se ek laudon"... this warrior spirit is not out of insecurity or weakness but a projection of strength, an extension of faith (miri piri, right?). Of course, we wish it was just love but not giving in to the weakness of others is loving them in some way I suppose, it's an encouragement for them to let go of their own fears and inhibitions and to embrace faith.

Idk. :swordfight-kudiyan:
 

findingmyway

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Khushwant Singh in this Book the History of Sikhs mentions how Guru Nanak's God was the protector of his devotees, whereas Guru Gobind Singh's God was the destroyer of those hostile to his devotees. He points out how these are flip-sides of the same coin, that is, they are saying the same thing in different ways. You don't have to take his word for it (I suggest you don't and find out yourself - meditation)
This does not make any sense to me? Ik Oankaar is present in all so why protect some and destroy others? Who decides who is a true devotee? Devotee of what? This all sounds very much like concepts from Christianity or Islam?

Guru ji considered everyone a devotee as we are all part of the same Creation. We are taught acceptance, inclusion and mutual respect even when not agreeing so how can the separation necessitated by definitions of devotee/enemy fit into this?

There is no space for enemies in Gurbani.
 

chazSingh

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Mostly ( in fact all) of the "enemies" referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurbani are the Five..Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh hankaar...Lust,Anger, greed,attachment and pride.....
Gurbani in fact absolves the HUMAN physical "enemy" as Forgivable and we are to "hate" the Karam..the ACTIONS...NOT the human perpetrator..thus hate the crime/act of stealing and not the THIEF (he should be forgiven)...PAAP and Not the PAAPI is the enemy.

2. Secondly even these FIVE so called "enemies" are to be CONQUERED..Not vanquished/destroyed. Kaam is necessary for procreation in marriage..Krodh is necessary in Battle..etc etc...the important thing is to be in CONTROl and NOT be controlled !!

3. There is NOT a single tuk in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that commands us or asks God to destroy human enemies...as that would then contradict the Na ko beri nahin beganna...and Guru Arjun ji PROVED this by declaring..Dosh na kahon devohn..I BLAME NO ONE (not Jehangir..not chandu..no one..for my torture and death)

4. I beleive the same is also true of the chaupaii and Jaap shaib...physical people are not the enmey..its their actions, their tyranny, their cruelty..

5.Maharaja Ranjit Singh forgave the Muslim Governor of Multan several times...for rebellion and being the casue of hundreds of sikh deaths each time he rebelled, and the Khalsa Army ahd to fight ahrd to retake the Multan Fort..and on being DEFEATED..the Governor would KNEEL in front of Ranjit Singh and beg forgiveness..the Maharja FORGAVE him multiple times !! ONLY Maharaja Ranjit Singhs 50 year rule has the distinction of being one in which NOT A SINGLE DEATH SENTENCE on anyone.

6. SARBATT DA BHALLA naturally involves ALL..each and everyone..irrespective of race creed etc. That is WHY Bhai Ghaniyah Ji was given MEDICINES by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in additon to the water bag !! The Sikhs ahd complained to Guru ji that Bhai Ghaniyah Ji was giving water to the wounded MUSLIM soldiers on the battlefield.."we fight hard and wound them to the ground..Bhai Ghaniyah Ji goes to them wipes their wounds, gives them water and makes them strong again to fight us..they complained. Guru Ji called upon Bhai Ghaniyah Ji to explain...His answer -..Guru Ji..I see YOUR FACE on ALL..I DONT see any Muslim..any Sikh..any friend..any FOE !! So how can i discriminate ?? Guru Ji smiled, Patted Bhai Ghaniyah ji on his back..and Gave him MEDICINES and Bandages...ina ddition to water..bandage them...medicate theWOUNDED !! What the RED CROSS does Today..Bhai Ghaniyah ji did 200 years BEFORE them !!

I hope this clears all doubts Jios....Gurus fought battles against TYRANNY ...not "humans" !! The TYRANNY was the Main enemy...

I Agree ji,

Our only true enemy is the 5 thieves and Gurbani in majority of instances is referring to them...if we all conquered the 5 thieves there would be piece on earth...they are thieves because they drain me of my life energy...life energy that is needed to walk on this spiritual path/awakening to God in all and all in God....i see them mentally torturing people around me, and all over the world...
 
Jun 5, 2013
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This does not make any sense to me? Ik Oankaar is present in all so why protect some and destroy others? Who decides who is a true devotee? Devotee of what? This all sounds very much like concepts from Christianity or Islam?

Guru ji considered everyone a devotee as we are all part of the same Creation. We are taught acceptance, inclusion and mutual respect even when not agreeing so how can the separation necessitated by definitions of devotee/enemy fit into this?

There is no space for enemies in Gurbani.
ok, Then hug the man coming to kill your family and take the women, and also hug the rapist you see on the street.

There are no enemies in gurbani on one level, however on another a dusht is a dusht and will be dealt with.

Why guru gobind singh ji commands sikhs to be shastardhaari and talks about martial things in sarbloh and dasam granth, which if you see pre-british things were accepted as being 2/3 of sikhs guru granth which british and Singh Sabha changed for their own purposes.

edit - You are a girl right?
 

findingmyway

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edit - You are a girl right?
No I am not a GIRL and what difference does that make?

ok, Then hug the man coming to kill your family and take the women, and also hug the rapist you see on the street.
No thank you, I would rather try to teach them the consequences of their actions. I was sexually harrassed by a guy where I worked as a trainee. Management turned a blind eye. I was very young and dreaded going to work! I saw him 2 years later at a different workplace and he was completely reformed! The happiness from the change was a thousand times sweeter than any revenge I could have had.


There are no enemies in gurbani on one level, however on another a dusht is a dusht and will be dealt with.
How does this make sense? Are you saying Gurbani is wrong? Gurbani teaches us to be above this attitude, only then will we be better people.

Why guru gobind singh ji commands sikhs to be shastardhaari and talks about martial things in sarbloh and dasam granth, which if you see pre-british things were accepted as being 2/3 of sikhs guru granth which british and Singh Sabha changed for their own purposes.
Guru Gobind Singh ji instructed his Sikhs to accept SGGS as their only Guru. I learn from SGGS and follow the instructions taught to me by my Guruji.
 

Harry Haller

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ok, Then hug the man coming to kill your family and take the women, and also hug the rapist you see on the street.
enemy (plural enemies) wikkipedia
  1. Someone who is hostile to, feels hatred towards, opposes the interests of, or intends injury to someone else.
mool mantra English translation as per wikki
“One Universal creator God, The supreme Unchangeable Truth, The Creator of the Universe, Beyond Fear, Beyond Hatred, Beyond Death, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent, by Guru's Grace”
edit - You are a girl right?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
no, but sometimes I wear my wifes tights in the winter
 
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arshdeep88

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Finding my way ji
Your post gave me a lot peace even though i just read it and the way you told how much happiness it gave you on forgiving the person not so respectful towards you in your office was really apreciable and something to be learned of.

Most of the time we in our mind asks for all the cruel things for the person who offends us in one way or the other in our daily lives.(rabh inhu kide pave,rabh ede naal inj kare taan pata lagu and so many of other things,waheguru ide naal madi karu forgetting HE is Nirvair)
And its really tough to forgive sometimes and be happy for the others specially if they had mistreated you in the past.
The thinking what will the people say if i will forgive that person ? man they will call me IDIOT ,with no stand with no Anakh ,Not a son/daughter of guru ,having "Thanda Khoon(refrigerated perhaps) and Not Garam Khoon" overcomes the act of forgiveness sometimes.

Didnt' Guru hardgobind ji had forgiven Jhangir as for the cruel martyrdom Of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Mahraj when he duly came to visit Guru Hardgobind Mahraj ?

And Guru Har Rai Ji helping the son of shah jahan in times of his illness?
Showing that we are to fight evil virtues not the people possessing such virtues?

Bhai kanayia ji giving the wounded soldiers on the mughal side water when taken up by gurus soldiers and was made to address Guru Gobind Singh ji and when asked to explain the situation he told guru ji that i have been working as you have instructed me to as all the place is see i see oneness only.Guru ji happily told him to also wound the soldiers from now on.

Every person has the capability of becoming a Demon and Angel.
For some they transform into brightest human beings from being the ugliest and vice versa

And kanwaljit singh brother is right on when he says its like fighting fire with water and it is really difficult thing to do.People like me would go on to the extent of handling somebodys neck for the things happened 10-20 of years ago lol .Family feuds ,people enthrusting war hatredness in their children to which their children have no knowledge of still happens today.
Forgiveness is one virtue which is really necessary and it should be from deep within not artificial as it frees your mind from all negativity and uneccessary burden too bringing us closer to the DIVINE peace.
Nirbahoo Nirvair ,fear of none hatredness for none
Evil resides in the actions and it is the action that is to be fought.

sorry went bit off topic talking about forgiveness but couldn't stop myself from dwelling in the feelings and positivity gathered from findingmyway ji's posts.
 

Tejwant Singh

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soormejawani84;189659]ok, Then hug the man coming to kill your family and take the women, and also hug the rapist you see on the street.
How many people have you met in your life who have announced that they are going to take all the women related to you,kill your family after raping them all? Please share your personal experiences with us. We empathize with you.

As the old saying goes, a person is known for the company he keeps and it shows that as far as the company you keep.

How many women including your mother, sisters, and daughters, if you have any have been killed after being raped or is this just a nonsensical rhetoric showing your myopic thought process?

There are no enemies in gurbani on one level, however on another a dusht is a dusht and will be dealt with.
Who is this dusht. Is he/she part of your family? Please elaborate it.

Why guru gobind singh ji commands sikhs to be shastardhaari and talks about martial things in sarbloh and dasam granth, which if you see pre-british things were accepted as being 2/3 of sikhs guru granth which british and Singh Sabha changed for their own purposes.
Where did Guru Gobind Singh say that?

Please be honest for a change and offer some proof. Sikhi demands that from you.

edit - You are a girl right?
Do you talk in the same manner in your own household to the females related to you which include your own mother and others?
 

chazSingh

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Every time the word forgiveness comes into the picture, people start using extreme examples like murdering...

but they forget there are ample petty opportunities to retain your inner Amrit and forgive in many family situations, friends...life at work.... We must try to live and breath forgiveness as much as we can.... hopefully we will never have to forgive a murderer...but if i ever find myself in that situation hopefully by then God has given me the strength to do this..

in the meantime, surely we can try to forgive those petty things that occur over and over in every day life :) ... i see it daily in my life...my wife holds grudges with so many people...i see it draining her of her Amrit and focus in life over petty little things...the best thing i can do is show her the positive effects of forgiving, hopefully she sees the peace that comes with it...
 

Harry Haller

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forgiveness is a not a Sikh concept, it cannot be, enmity itself is not a Sikh concept, so how can anything that follows enmity be one?

I try to not to get into a position where I have to forgive in the first place, if people treat me in a way I find unacceptable, I do not hate them, I just limit my interaction with them.

forgiveness is a largely Abrahamic concept, I would like to think that a good Sikh conducts themself with calmness and clarity at all times, hate for an enemy is akin to a relationship based purely on lust.

I dont hate you, I just dont love you anymore
 

chazSingh

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forgiveness is a not a Sikh concept, it cannot be, enmity itself is not a Sikh concept, so how can anything that follows enmity be one?

I try to not to get into a position where I have to forgive in the first place, if people treat me in a way I find unacceptable, I do not hate them, I just limit my interaction with them.

forgiveness is a largely Abrahamic concept, I would like to think that a good Sikh conducts themself with calmness and clarity at all times, hate for an enemy is akin to a relationship based purely on lust.

I dont hate you, I just dont love you anymore
Harry Ji,

I really can't see how you think Forgiveness is not a Sikh Concept?
I mean, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, God is described as a Forgiver...there are shabads describing Satguru as the forgiver...countless mention of forgiving...

If a Godly attribute is 'Forgiveness' surely us 'Souls' as coming from the same source must hold Forgiveness as one of our True attributes....that is until our mind thinks otherwise..

To practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment.
Disease does not afflict me, nor does the pain of death.
I am liberated, and absorbed into God, who has no form or feature. ||1||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=708

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God Bless Ji.
 

spnadmin

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By omitting the rehao line from these verses the passage comes without a context. Let's have the full shabad and the Gurmuki in order to figure who is the "forgiver." This is more than a technical question about details. If the Liberator is without anger or fear why would (he) need to forgive anything? The Nirankar is beyond the limitations of emotions that require feelings of forgiveness. The lesson is to the devotee to find real virtue. We might see that with the full shabad.
 

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