Please add any meat discussion to fools who wrangle over flesh thread.
It willl be deleted from here.
It willl be deleted from here.
Islam Why Not Halal Meat?
- Thread starter Lucy Ahmed
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sikh Engineer
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- Jan 14, 2010
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thanks randip ji this is eye opner for all sikhs who think that jatka done by hindu for bali can be consumed by sikh
once again thanks
I think the key here is appeasement.. Bali is appeasement.
Bali...sacrifice...basically murdering an animal (not by its choice) in order toa sk the goddess/god/devi/devya etc for something...good harvest..a son..children..rain...whatever.
Thus definitley TABOO for a GURSIKH. Gursikhs dont bargain with God...
Thus definitley TABOO for a GURSIKH. Gursikhs dont bargain with God...
Thanks for putting in those words - Sikhs don't bargain with God. I hope I remember this phrase, Gyani ji, because it is one of the concepts that sums up why Sikhism is different.
Thanks for putting in those words - Sikhs don't bargain with God. I hope I remember this phrase, Gyani ji, because it is one of the concepts that sums up why Sikhism is different.
Yes!!
Gyaniji has put it in a brilliant way.
We do not "bargain with God". We do not do deals with God. We simply accept Gods will.
Hence there is no need for us to sacrifice animals to God, Offer God clarified butter and sweet delacies, offer God penances etc etc and in return God will grant us some kind of blessing etc.
We accept the natural order of things. We don't try and change it.
When a Sikh does Jhatka, he thanks God for the food, and does not say to God "here this is for you" from some sense of misplaced guilt.
Well put. Now, I am ready for some good goat curry or shahi korma.
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Always trying to override nature is the hallmark of human species. That's how we have survived for so long, and that's our only hope for survival in the future.
I don't agree that we should accept the natural order of things but rather learn about it as much as we can.
I need my clothes in the cold, need surgery when body has been damaged and hope to visit another planet/moon in this lifetime:happy: ... All of which are overriding the natural order of things.
Actually nowadays the opposite is true.
Actually bHaghat Singh ji, that thinking has changed, due to the catastrophic nature of Global warming.
Working in a "Green" industry, we are trying to work with nature nowadays, rather than against it. In the UK we have a massive programme of wind and tidal power generation and moving away from harmful fossil fuels.
Even Scientists have realised we must work with nature. The greatest example of working with nature has been Penacilin. Created by nature and the laws of nature, yet because we didn't posses the knowledge we neever knew it was there.
I rest my case.
Halal meaning permitted requires in addition to the physical process of allowing blood to flow the mentioning the name of the one and only deity and not any idol,individual or cause. It is done not as an offering to appease God or as a sacrifice. There are times when one has committed a sin e.g mad an oath that was improper or a legitimate act that could not be fulfilled or in commemoration of some act e.g. the attempted sacrifice of Ishmael, the prophet Abraham's son. It says in the Quran that it is not the blood or flesh that reaches Allah but the intention and devotion that the believer brings to the ritual.
It brings to mind that we have the permission of Allah to take the life of a living thing for the sake of preserving our own life. Eating non-halal or meat of swine is allowed when hunger or necessity force one to do so but not simply out of a desire to taste it.
All rituals as acts of worship are in the end a desire to please our Creator in all aspects of our life.
It brings to mind that we have the permission of Allah to take the life of a living thing for the sake of preserving our own life. Eating non-halal or meat of swine is allowed when hunger or necessity force one to do so but not simply out of a desire to taste it.
All rituals as acts of worship are in the end a desire to please our Creator in all aspects of our life.
BhagatSingh
SPNer
- Apr 24, 2006
- 2,921
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We maybe on a different pitch here, Randip Singh ji but what you said is basically humans working with nature to counteract it.Actually nowadays the opposite is true.
Actually bHaghat Singh ji, that thinking has changed, due to the catastrophic nature of Global warming.
Working in a "Green" industry, we are trying to work with nature nowadays, rather than against it. In the UK we have a massive programme of wind and tidal power generation and moving away from harmful fossil fuels.
Even Scientists have realised we must work with nature. The greatest example of working with nature has been Penacilin. Created by nature and the laws of nature, yet because we didn't posses the knowledge we neever knew it was there.
I rest my case.
Wind and tidal power generations are being created to producve electricity. Why? One reason, To counteract the cold (nature) and heat our houses.
Penacillin is there to counteract disease (nature), etc.
Ameer ji, (nice name),
A question from a gharib like myself.
Judaism and Christianity claim that it was Issac not Ishmael whose attempted sacrifice was demanded by the omnipotent God.
You think both of them are lying in the name of the God of Abraham?
Tejwant Singh
Tejwant ji,
Thank you for your question.
It is not a matter of lying but a matter of a decision to interpolate the only son Isaac into the test and trying to change the story to keep for themselves every act that shows how they were under the eyes of God throughout history even though tey committed acts of disobedience that were condemned by the prophets.
Abraham had a vision in which he was asked
"to sacrifice your son,your only son Isaac," according to the Bible (Old Testament) which was accepted by the Christians without question.
Why was it necessary to say parenthetically," your only when he had another son Ishmael, the first born. Logically, the test would be if he id have only one son and not if another son was there to carry on his line.
It would seem that this change was necessary because of racism that wanted to have Isaac exclusively as the center of attention.
The position of Hagar by some Christian scholars also has been elevated above that of Sarah because of her obedience to the angel's request to return to her mistress after fleeing her abuse.
Abraham also prayed that Ishmael would "live" in His(God's sight even though he was not the child of the covenant. He would be a great nation was the answer.
Although the Qur"an mentions that Ishmael willingly accepted being sacrificed, it was primarily a test of Ibrahim's devotion. Ishamel means "He(God) heard and Isaac is she laughed(referring to Sarah questioning the promise of having a child at her age.
The Jews do not commemorate the sacrifice while Muslims do at the end of the pilgrimage rites which includes the running of Hagar between 2 hillocks in search of water.
Christians do not include Hagar and Ishmael in their bible stories especially as they reject Hagar as a legal wife and that Abraham accepted Sarah's offer to have a child when he was told that he would have a child by her.
In the collection, "Legends of the Jews" Hagar and Ishmael are treated more fairly and Hagar under the name of Keturah is said to have rejoıned Abraham together with Ishmael.
A rabbi in a commentary also criticized Sarah for "abuse of power" which was offered as a lesson for Jews of today.
The substition of the ram was to fulfill Abraham's readiness to make a sacrific even though it was not demanded from him by God and now every year since the beginning of Islam, countless Muslims do the same in commemoration.
Jews stopped performing ritual sacrifice after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed as the only legitimate place and it only could be performed by those who were Kahins(Cohens) If they decided to do it they would have to identify the legitimate Cohens and do DNA testing.
It is similar to those Muslims who claim to be descended from the Prophet (Sayyid) if we want to bother to find out something which is unnecessary.
Thank you for your question.
It is not a matter of lying but a matter of a decision to interpolate the only son Isaac into the test and trying to change the story to keep for themselves every act that shows how they were under the eyes of God throughout history even though tey committed acts of disobedience that were condemned by the prophets.
Abraham had a vision in which he was asked
"to sacrifice your son,your only son Isaac," according to the Bible (Old Testament) which was accepted by the Christians without question.
Why was it necessary to say parenthetically," your only when he had another son Ishmael, the first born. Logically, the test would be if he id have only one son and not if another son was there to carry on his line.
It would seem that this change was necessary because of racism that wanted to have Isaac exclusively as the center of attention.
The position of Hagar by some Christian scholars also has been elevated above that of Sarah because of her obedience to the angel's request to return to her mistress after fleeing her abuse.
Abraham also prayed that Ishmael would "live" in His(God's sight even though he was not the child of the covenant. He would be a great nation was the answer.
Although the Qur"an mentions that Ishmael willingly accepted being sacrificed, it was primarily a test of Ibrahim's devotion. Ishamel means "He(God) heard and Isaac is she laughed(referring to Sarah questioning the promise of having a child at her age.
The Jews do not commemorate the sacrifice while Muslims do at the end of the pilgrimage rites which includes the running of Hagar between 2 hillocks in search of water.
Christians do not include Hagar and Ishmael in their bible stories especially as they reject Hagar as a legal wife and that Abraham accepted Sarah's offer to have a child when he was told that he would have a child by her.
In the collection, "Legends of the Jews" Hagar and Ishmael are treated more fairly and Hagar under the name of Keturah is said to have rejoıned Abraham together with Ishmael.
A rabbi in a commentary also criticized Sarah for "abuse of power" which was offered as a lesson for Jews of today.
The substition of the ram was to fulfill Abraham's readiness to make a sacrific even though it was not demanded from him by God and now every year since the beginning of Islam, countless Muslims do the same in commemoration.
Jews stopped performing ritual sacrifice after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed as the only legitimate place and it only could be performed by those who were Kahins(Cohens) If they decided to do it they would have to identify the legitimate Cohens and do DNA testing.
It is similar to those Muslims who claim to be descended from the Prophet (Sayyid) if we want to bother to find out something which is unnecessary.
NO MEAT AT ALL
mws mws kir mUriK Jgry
Today I am not in a Mood to write more because of Black day for all of Sikhs who believes in One Guru only that is GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI
Those peoples who believes in Dasam Granth is GURU for them should be Happy but the fact is Guru GObind Singh ji has given the Guru-Gadhi to Guru Granth Sahib ji only
Gurfate
mws mws kir mUriK Jgry
Today I am not in a Mood to write more because of Black day for all of Sikhs who believes in One Guru only that is GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI
Those peoples who believes in Dasam Granth is GURU for them should be Happy but the fact is Guru GObind Singh ji has given the Guru-Gadhi to Guru Granth Sahib ji only
Gurfate
Ameer ji,
Guru Fateh.
Thanks for the response.
Unfortunately, I do not find any moral values in this story no matter how a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim like you puts it. The fact remains that there is no love lost among the three. They detest each other in the name of the God of Abraham, the same God they claim to serve.
First and foremost, why would all knowing, all powerful God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac as claimed by the Jews and the Christians or Ishmael as claimed by the Muslims?
Doesn't all knowing, all powerful God know the results before testing anything or anyone?
Hence, testing is of no use. It is rather a mockery.
If Abraham heard God talk to him, it shows that this God is a being who has a voice, a mortal deity.
And talking about Abraham, a married man, who raped his own slave Hager shows no moral basis nor any moral values of any religion that believes and practices goodness in all.
And at the same time he broke God's own command," thou shalt not commit adultery".
Lastly, this thing about descendant from so and so is nothing but arrogance exposing me-ism rather than connecting to the ONE.
I can only talk about Sikhi. In Sikhi, one is not born a Sikh but becomes one. Sikhi history proves that. Guru Nanak did not make any of his own children the second Guru.
Pardon my bluntness.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
I know we are not supposed to bargain with the Eternal; all else aside, it's ridiculous because we have nothing to bargain with. But can we be honest? Is there a single one of us that hasn't done it?
"If you just let me pass this test (in school)...If you will bring my parent/child/spouse safely through this...If you just get me the money to pay for rent/food/medicine...If you just let my baby live...(the list goes on and on and on...) "Then I'll (whatever you have decided to use as a bargaining chip.). It's ridiculous, but I think if we're being honest, we'll admit to having done it at one time or another.
I know this is a digression, but I had to say that.
Just today, in answer to a question from her, I was explaining the Four Taboos to my born-again, spirit-filled Christian medical caregiver. Thank you for this thread. It helped a lot.
"If you just let me pass this test (in school)...If you will bring my parent/child/spouse safely through this...If you just get me the money to pay for rent/food/medicine...If you just let my baby live...(the list goes on and on and on...) "Then I'll (whatever you have decided to use as a bargaining chip.). It's ridiculous, but I think if we're being honest, we'll admit to having done it at one time or another.
I know this is a digression, but I had to say that.
Just today, in answer to a question from her, I was explaining the Four Taboos to my born-again, spirit-filled Christian medical caregiver. Thank you for this thread. It helped a lot.
Well penicillin has been created by nature and not man. In nature it is basic law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
We fool ourselves if we think we can actually counteract nature, all we do as humans is gain knowledge about those forces in nature that naturally counteract themselves.
For cold there is hot
for small there is big.
etc etc.
Our job as humans is to find these balances and work with them.
Yes God....please let me win the lottery...and I will.....blah blah :happy:
And did you get an affirmative response from the Almighty? (I ask this only because I am very low on cash and if you won the lottery, maybe you'd...OK, I thought not, but :Missy: please don't blame me for trying.)
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