• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Atheism Why Atheism Will Replace Religion!

findingmyway

Writer
SPNer
Aug 17, 2010
1,665
3,778
World citizen!
I resent the fact that you think I have taken your quotes out of context. Especially seeing as I have copy pasted most of your quotes down word by word and I think i did more then a fair job refuting alot of your points—especially those regarding einstein, the role of religion in rwandan genocide, bigfoot, cern, and aliens.

Having said that, I wouldnt mind if tejwant clarified what he meant when he said "sikhi has no god"—cuz it sure seems like he meant sikhi has no god :p.

Nonetheless, it was a good discussion. And i'm not here to convert anyone, theres a difference between active conversion and what I have called "spreading the truth." I'm not asking you to become an atheist, or coercing you at all. I'm arguing and debating, getting people to think criticall and thinking critically myself in the pursuit of "truth" — thats it.

You did not refute nor debate but merely presented your viewpoint when it is only one aspect of the situation and with history there is almost always more than one way of looking at things. You brushed off things I said that weren't convenient to your argument and clearly twisted other things. Science often has multiple viewpoints but you don't accept that. You also confuse cause and effect. So many things to say but its a waste of time when you have openly declared that you cannot accept religion and therefore will not live alongside religion therefore putting you on the same plane as Christian crusaders/missionaries and Jehovah's witnesses. That is as bigoted a viewpoint as the one's you condemn. One of my motto's in life is different strokes for different folks. I support freedom of speech until it becomes derogatory to an entire group of people. You saying religious people are bad for humanity includes your parents.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Caspian ji,

You have my vote as resident atheist at SPN. Once again I did not expect the reply you gave. But honestly, I am under no obligation to prove that God exists just because atheists insist that I do. After all, it was the atheists who demand "proof" using "science" as their soapbox.

Let me reply only to one part of your statement above. I think though short it addresses most of the other parts of comments directed to me earlier.

The thing I dont like about this, is it sets a nasty precedent for all future claims. One could suggest that anything such as fairies, bigfoot, aliens (and i do believe in aliens) just "is" unless one can demonstrate that they dont exist. If science worked like that, we'd be spending all our time proving the non-existance of an infinite amount of ideas. I'm hoping you would agree that it isnt practical, and for practical purposes the onus has to remain on your side to come up with the evidence.

But you are making things only that much easier for me.

1. Science in the large is unconcerned with fairies and Big Foot. In traditional science, if evidence is not demonstrable and measurable, it is not evidence. There is nothing therefore for science to discuss where these matters are concerned. Of course scientists may on occasion appear on TV, radio and the Internet, as media personalities, to debunk God, fairies, Big Foot and aliens. But most of the time these are topics left to philosophers and the Amazing Randy.

2. So what about science and scientists? I stepped up to my own challenge and visited the web site of the National Science Foundation. Here is what this jatha does.

As described in our strategic plan, NSF is the only federal agency whose mission includes support for all fields of fundamental science and engineering, except for medical sciences. NSF is tasked with keeping the United States at the leading edge of discovery in a wide range of scientific areas, from astronomy to geology to zoology. So, in addition to funding research in the traditional academic areas, the agency also supports "high risk, high pay off" ideas, novel collaborations and numerous projects that may seem like science fiction today, but which the public will take for granted tomorrow. And in every case, we ensure that research is fully integrated with education so that today's revolutionary work will also be training tomorrow's top scientists and engineers.

I found it interesting too that the NSF does not pretend that the science of today is the science of tomorrow, as it funds: "high risk, high pay off" ideas, novel collaborations and numerous projects that may seem like science fiction today, but which the public will take for granted tomorrow.


What does this body of scientists do?

They provide funds for a voyage of discovery toward findings that are supportable under the scientific method. Topics for the moment unresolved: fairies, Big Foot, aliens and God. Thus spaketh the null hypothesis.
 
Sep 21, 2010
44
79
gursikhi.jeevan ji
Waheguru ji ka khals
Waheguru ji ki fateh

What about Budhism and Janinism that do not believe in God?

Also. if I am not wrong, even before Communist rule in China, a large part of Chinese population did not have any religion apart from some Budhism and Christian converts under foreign influence. For them then perhaps God had no meaning.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Serjinder Singh ji thanks for your post. I have been thinking for a while and have one comment.
gursikhi.jeevan ji
Waheguru ji ka khals
Waheguru ji ki fateh

What about Budhism and Janinism that do not believe in God?

Also. if I am not wrong, even before Communist rule in China, a large part of Chinese population did not have any religion apart from some Budhism and Christian converts under foreign influence. For them then perhaps God had no meaning.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh
I believe that as more is discovered through Science the greater the closeness becomes between Atheism and Sikhism. We both believe in ultimate truths as guiding this universe. In Sikhism we assign the ultimate truth as God/creator. If by chance over zillions of years all truth is known, then there will be no difference between Sikhism and Atheism other than Sikhs coming to the apex of knowing all truths with little left to discover. The atheists will be believing in the same truths discovered and proven to their liking. mundahug

I am not sure if other religions are so focused on greater and continued acceptance of truths discovered regardless of the label on how such come about and which religious or non-religious sector such come from.

I smell roses.

red_roses-13090.jpg


Regards.
 
Last edited:

Rajwinder

Writer
SPNer
May 2, 2006
77
57
I think reasons for believing/following things like GOD, Religion , Science , spirituality keeps on changing with time , as all of them have great deal of space for research ;-). All of them are pretty flexible in accommodating so many different theories that may or may not be true. I like "It seems that people turn to religion as a salve for the difficulties and uncertainties of their lives" .. specially 'uncertainty' part .. as all u need is to convince your brain in one way or other. This line is also god "Even the psychological functions of religion face stiff competition today" .. specially 'competition' part as so many religious shops will go out of business.:singhbhangra:
 
Feb 23, 2012
391
642
United Kingdom
Atheism will replace religion


I say good! Hopefully it will help more people reach an enlightened belief that is fully their own rather than simply a leftover from their upbringing or culture. Most forms of religion today are in generally poor shape. It is individual believers within these faiths who light them up.

Atheism is founded upon reasoned observations of the world and is often arrived at after an independent investigation.

Religion - and by that I exclude absolutely none of the world religions -needs purified from an obsession with manmade customs, vain adherence to lifeless creeds that hold no meaning for people in the 21st century, cultural and mythical elements and simplistic understandings of God or the afterlife, amidst a myriad of other things.

True religion changes peoples' lives for the better and inspires so many people in our world today to do acts of immense charity and humanity without any thought for self.

Atheism however represents a chance for believers of every faith to purify their religious beliefs and their conception of God/supreme reality.

I welcome it.

Religion will only succeed in Europe again, as it does still in the rest of the world (Christianity is, for example, the fastest growing religion in Africa and China) when it becomes once again a force for change for the better of individual people rather than being itself corrupted by individual people.

I am reminded of the famous words of a certain high-profile Cardinal of the Catholic Church during the Renaissance, who spoke these powerful words (that I think are very in tune with Sikhi) in the opening speech of the Fifth Lateran Council:


"...Men should be changed by religion, not religion by men..."

- Cardinal Egidio da Viterbo (1469-1532), Italian Augustinian friar, reforming theologian, humanist, Catholic mystic & poet


And so I give to you the modern Catholic mystic (and convert from Atheism), Simone Weil (brought up in a secular Jewish family), who explained thus:

"...Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong....That is why St. John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have received a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to these mysteries when they have no right at all to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which St. John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of such a purification...Whenever one tries to suppress doubt, there is tyranny...There are two atheisms of which one is a purification of the notion of God...At the bottom of the heart of every human being, from earliest infancy until the tomb, there is something that goes on indomitably expecting, in the teeth of all experience of crimes committed, suffered, and witnessed, that good and not evil will be done to him. It is this above all that is sacred in every human being...God is absent from the world, except in the existence in this world of those in whom his love is alive...Their compassion is the visible presence of God...An atheist may be simply one whose faith and love are concentrated on the impersonal aspects of God...I am absolutely sure that God exists, in the sense that my love is not an illusion. I am absolutely sure that God does not exist, in the sense that nothing corresponds to whatever I may think when I utter this name. But what I cannot think is not an illusion..."

- Simone Weil (1909 – 1943), Jewish Catholic mystic & philosopher


Hence why Saint Edith Stein, a Catholic martyr of the Holocaust who died in a concentration camp because of her Jewish ethnicity (she converted from Judaism to Catholicism after a wander into agnosticism/atheism), once said about her mentor from her agnostic/atheist days:


"...I am not at all worried about my dear Master. It has always been far from me to think that God's mercy allows itself to be circumscribed by the visible church's boundaries. God is truth. All who seek truth seek God, whether this is clear to them or not..."

- Saint Edith Stein (1891 - 1942), Jewish Catholic mystic & Holocaust victim, speaking about her atheist mentor Edmund Husserl


The most daring forms of orthodox Catholic mysticism are quite akin to atheism anyway.

There is a tradition of what is known by academics as "mystical atheism" in Catholic mysticism. Obviously, ordinary lay Catholics don't often think of it in this way but scholars do. A Vajrayana Buddhist online once asked me to explain it to him. He said:

I understand that there is a very strong non-theistic tradition even in historical Catholicism, and a number of Catholic (as well as of course Muslim and Jewish) scholars and mystics have discussed the issue of not using the label "God" because it allows us to make our own presumptions about what that is.


An example:

The most daring forms of Catholic mysticism have emphasized the absolute unknowability of God. They suggest that true contact with the transcendent involves going beyond all that we speak of as God - even the Trinity - to an inner "God beyond God," a divine Darkness or Desert in which all distinction is lost.

This form of "mystical atheism" has [as its] main exponent the Pseudo-Dionysius, who distinguished "the super-essential God-head" from all positive terms ascribed to God, even the Trinity (The Divine Names, chapter 13).

In the West this tradition is first found in Erigena and is especially evident in the Rhineland school. According to Eckhart, even being and goodness are "garments" or "veils" under which God is hidden. In inviting his hearers to "break through" to the hidden Godhead, he daringly exclaimed, "let us pray to God that we may be free of 'God,' and that we may apprehend and rejoice in that everlasting truth in which the highest angel and the fly and the soul are equal" (German Sermons, 52).


In fact Sam Harris, the famed atheist neuroscientist, admitted last year that he enjoys reading Catholic and Indian mystics and actually "gets" them:

"If I open a page of [the 13th-century Catholic mystic] Meister Eckhart, I often know what he’s talking about.”


This is practically a form of religious atheism within a Catholic context:


"...God never did exist
Nor ever will, yet aye
He was ere worlds began, and
When they're gone he'll stay.
God is a pure Nothing,
He stands not in time or place
And cannot be touched
God is an utter Nothingness,
Beyond the touch of Time and Place:
The more you grasp after Him,
The more he flees your embrace

The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

God stands far above the anger,
rage and indignation
ascribed to Him by primitive imagination

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

Unless you find paradise
at your own center,
there is not
the smallest chance
that you may enter..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), German Catholic mystic


God doesn't exist. Many theists probably believe in a God they have thought up in their own head, one who corresponds to their personal needs, a comfort and a crutch to lean upon. That God, the God of "reward and punishment", the God of nationalisms and narrow belief systems, he certainly doesn't exist. I would be more than happy to let that God die and write the obituary for him and all the suffering he has caused countless human beings through meaningless wars, upheavals and rattling them with all kinds of unnecessary guilt and self-loathing. The worship of this God is idolatry, a subtle form of idolatry, that I am sure many people are innocently guilty of. Atheists are some of the few people on earth who are not guilty of this idolatry and for that alone they would warrant my respect.


"...In order to attain perfect union, we must free ourselves of God...The common belief about God, that He is a great Taskmaster, whose function is to reward or punish, is cast out by perfect love; and in this sense the spiritual man does divest himself of God as conceived of by most people. The intellectual where is the essential unnameable nothingness. So we must call it, because we can discover no mode of being, under which to conceive it...A man may in this life reach the point at which he understands himself to be one with that which is the nothing of all the things that one can conceive, imagine or express in words. By common agreement men call this Nothing "God" and it is in itself a most essential Something. And here a person knows himself to be one with this Nothing, and this Nothing knows itself without the activity of knowing. But this is mysteriously hidden further within..."

- Blessed Henry Suso (c. 1296-1366), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest


I therefore have a very positive view of atheism in general mundahugAnd what's more many of them live highly principled lives under the auspices of such modern ethical systems as Secular Humanism and without any hope of a heavenly reward, they do it out of the sheer goodness of their humanity and empathy for their suffering brothers and sisters. That gets a huge thumbs up from me!

What I find dangerous is not atheism (the denial of God and even an afterlife) but materialism and the sating of lusts, a kind of 'enjoy yourself and be a hedonist' attitude which is often falsely promoted as real atheism by popular writers of books and which gives a terrible example to confused young people today who want something more from life. The false gospel of "do as you please" materialism is the true sickness affecting Western civilisation, not principled atheists.

BTW I do believe that pure religion will never vanish, only corrupted/stale manifestations of it.
 
Last edited:

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
43
INDIA
gursikhi.jeevan ji
Waheguru ji ka khals
Waheguru ji ki fateh

What about Budhism and Janinism that do not believe in God?

Also. if I am not wrong, even before Communist rule in China, a large part of Chinese population did not have any religion apart from some Budhism and Christian converts under foreign influence. For them then perhaps God had no meaning.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh

China has lot of indigenous and folk religions.Infact 31% of Chinese population still follows them.Around 50% of Chinese population has some religious belief and 85% of Chinese population has some sort of supernatural belief.Only 15% of Chinese population is real atheist
 
Nov 14, 2004
408
388
62
Thailand
Ambarsaria ji,


I believe that as more is discovered through Science the greater the closeness becomes between Atheism and Sikhism. We both believe in ultimate truths as guiding this universe. [/I]In Sikhism we assign the ultimate truth as God/creator. If by chance over zillions of years all truth is known, then there will be no difference between Sikhism and Atheism


So maybe one day you will find scientists singing kirtan in praise of the Big Bang while using the latest synthesizers as accompaniment, sometime to the wordings of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, sometimes Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and sometimes Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection. And all these fellows are regarded as enlightened and people will start reading their life story in order to be inspired. And maybe at some point, keeping long hair will be the norm and those who cut their hair will be considered unscientific.

Or perhaps this last one is only a Sikh thing, due exactly to the edge /superiority that it has over all other fields of thought.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Confused ji thanks for your post. I sense a bit of mockery style in your post but I am ignoring the style part and focussing on words. Some comments if I may.
Ambarsaria ji,
So maybe one day you will find scientists singing kirtan in praise of the Big Bang while using the latest synthesizers as accompaniment, sometime to the wordings of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, sometimes Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and sometimes Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection.
Sikhs already participate in many of the scientific items you highlighted. You may not realize but Sikhism belief in truth is a super-set of some of the discoveries or scientific knowledge you mention. Sikhism in strongest possible language, consistently and repeatedly encourages the following,

  • There is infinite to learn and to so live with in creation
    • Do so to learn
    • Embed what you learn to live better with all
  • If say Guru Nanak ji was here today, he would have been enthralled and joyous for all such people versus the mis-leading Brahmins or Kazis whose ways are no different now versus 1500 AD.
And all these fellows are regarded as enlightened and people will start reading their life story in order to be inspired.

Labels are of little or no import in Sikhism. Actions are the only part that is important. Sikhs are always encouraged to seek wisdom from wherever and however so such life stories or other wisdom would be very worthwhile for a Sikh as much as for all others.
And maybe at some point, keeping long hair will be the norm and those who cut their hair will be considered unscientific.
Sikhism encourages certain ways to continuously be better. Becoming from a Sikh to Khalsa is one such steps that millions of Sikhs have taken and millions others have not. Sikhism does not compare the inners of such differences while again emphasizing inner development before outer development. Does it happen so for all Sikhs who keep hair, I am not a judge but that is what I understand.
Or perhaps this last one is only a Sikh thing, due exactly to the edge /superiority that it has over all other fields of thought.
Superiority complexes are a part of the ego complex. Sikhism does not teach or condone it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That does not mean that it is quiet against exploitative ignorance or exploitation of humans by humans. It is this part that is the basis of much hate and persecution of Sikhism by Hinduism and Islam as it challenged these first. Many have died, Sikhism was pursued to the levels of genocide by Muslim invaders, etc.

I hope above clarifies. mundahug

Regards.
 
Last edited:
Nov 14, 2004
408
388
62
Thailand
Ambarsaria ji,


So maybe one day you will find scientists singing kirtan in praise of the Big Bang while using the latest synthesizers as accompaniment, sometime to the wordings of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, sometimes Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and sometimes Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection.

Sikhs already participate in many of the scientific items you highlighted.

And so would I if I was trained as a scientist, perhaps I would even come up with a theory of my own.

The difference between you and I however, is that you believe science to be studying and revealing the Truth, whereas I say that it is deep in concepts and useful only in conventional living.


You may not realize but Sikhism belief in truth is a super-set of some of the discoveries or scientific knowledge you mention. Sikhism in strongest possible language, consistently and repeatedly encourages the following,

There is infinite to learn and to so live with in creation

Do so to learn

Embed what you learn to live better with all

If say Guru Nanak ji was here today, he would have been enthralled and joyous for all such people versus the mis-leading Brahmins or Kazis whose ways are no different now versus 1500 AD.

I very much doubt this.

I know that all Sikhs consider learning in terms of accumulative knowledge. But I doubt that this is what was encouraged by Guru Nanak.

For a person who, to whatever extent, saw the need to control, sensuous attachments, anger and conceit, it is evident that he realizes that true knowledge is knowledge of one's own mind. He who talked against the lure of Maya is saying that one should not be drawn in by worldly knowledge about this and that. The thing that Guru Nanak learnt during his travels was not science, but what the different religions of his time taught namely, morality, kindness, renunciation, compassion and so on. These are not accumulative knowledge, but that which leads in fact to the giving up of attachment to those other kinds of knowledge.


Quote: Originally Posted by Confused
And all these fellows are regarded as enlightened and people will start reading their life story in order to be inspired.

Labels are of little or no import in Sikhism. Actions are the only part that is important. Sikhs are always encouraged to seek wisdom from wherever and however so such life stories or other wisdom would be very worthwhile for a Sikh as much as for all others.

*Wisdom*, yes! But do you know what it is to be wise?

To know attachment, aversion, ignorance, conceit, jealousy, miserliness etc as harmful / unprofitable on one hand, and generosity, kindness, morality and wisdom itself as valuable / profitable on the other, this is the domain of wisdom. Please tell me how in this regard, would one be inspired by Einstein? Moreover, wisdom understands self-knowledge as the only sensible pursuit, in what way does science encourage the same? Is not science about the world out there, and would not thinking that such knowledge is the goal take one away from understanding one’s own mind?


Quote: Originally Posted by Confused
And maybe at some point, keeping long hair will be the norm and those who cut their hair will be considered unscientific.

Sikhism encourages certain ways to continuously be better. Becoming from a Sikh to Khalsa is one such steps that millions of Sikhs have taken and millions others have not.

Just because you posit that Khalsa is a step forward does not make it so. In terms of the things that you value, please tell me how Khalsa is an improvement.


Sikhism does not compare the inners of such differences while again emphasizing inner development before outer development. Does it happen so for all Sikhs who keep hair, I am not a judge but that is what I understand.

Please point out the inner qualities which correspond with the outer qualities that make up Khalsa. And please explain why you think it to be valid.


Quote: Originally Posted by Confused
Or perhaps this last one is only a Sikh thing, due exactly to the edge /superiority that it has over all other fields of thought.

Superiority complexes are a part of the ego complex. Sikhism does not teach or condone it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Come on, don't you think that Sikhism is superior to all other religions? I think Buddhism is not only superior, but the only one which leads to the Truth? But of course, this comparision is only between the teachings and therefore nothing to do with ego. Was I to identify myself as being Buddhist and therefore comparing myself with you being a Sikh, then perhaps ego is involved. But this was not the case here.

Anyway I was referring to your comment below when I stated the above:

Quote Ambarsaria: “If by chance over zillions of years all truth is known, then there will be no difference between Sikhism and Atheism other than Sikhs coming to the apex of knowing all truths with little left to discover”.<end quote>

I had read you as suggesting that Sikhism *is* at the apex, but after your response and reading it again, I realize that I was wrong. Sorry.


I hope above clarifies.

The reason I wrote my response was not just to make fun, but to show what I see as error on your part. You were suggesting to the effect that once science has come up with explanations for all that exists, to know all this is to arrive at True knowledge. And you say that Sikhism agrees with this and is on the same course. I expect that you will by now see why I disagree. But let me add.

True knowledge is about coming to understand one's own mind. It is that which is associated with giving up, rather than accumulating. It is coming to see that much of what we take for useful knowledge is in fact the result of ignorance and attachment. Therefore the process of the development of understanding can be seen as seeing through and detaching from such thinking / knowledge. When you suggest the path of accumulating more such knowledge, it is seen therefore as exactly the opposite of what should in fact be encouraged.

Besides, what you suggest amounts to saying that if one had all the scientific knowledge out there, this is akin to enlightenment. I’d say that if this happens but that person does not know anything about his own mind, he is in total darkness. He may have explanations for everything, yet be an ignorant fool.
 

❤️ CLICK HERE TO JOIN SPN MOBILE PLATFORM

Top