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What's Wrong With God?

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What's Wrong With God?

Ishna

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In another thread someone said that the meaning of Waheguru is complicated and cannot be reduced to the term 'god' and that it is wholly inadequate.

I use the term 'God' when talking about the Ik Onkar, because it's natural language for me to use. I'm usually not very confident using other terms because I don't always know what they mean, exactly, and have run into trouble with other users by accidentally 'inventing' new terms.

So, what actually is the problem with referring to the Ik Onkar with the word 'God'?
 

Harry Haller

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In another thread someone said that the meaning of Waheguru is complicated and cannot be reduced to the term 'god' and that it is wholly inadequate.

I use the term 'God' when talking about the Ik Onkar, because it's natural language for me to use. I'm usually not very confident using other terms because I don't always know what they mean, exactly, and have run into trouble with other users by accidentally 'inventing' new terms.

So, what actually is the problem with referring to the Ik Onkar with the word 'God'?
to me, the abrahamic connection, God will always to me be the God I read about in the bible, an angry jealous fellow.
 

Logical Sikh

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i think it depend from person to person, i generally use "Eternal Entity" or "God".
I dont think if anything is wrong in that cuz WHen you talkin' to someone abt Eternal then you gotta use terminology that evrybdy knows......
There is nothing wrong with "GOD" IMO.
people who object they'll never be satisfied with anything XD.
btw " KUCH TO LOG KAHENGE, LOGO KA KAAM HAI KEHNA" if you know wht it means XD
 

Harry Haller

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i think it depend from person to person, i generally use "Eternal Entity" or "God".
I dont think if anything is wrong in that cuz WHen you talkin' to someone abt Eternal then you gotta use terminology that evrybdy knows......
There is nothing wrong with "GOD" IMO.
people who object they'll never be satisfied with anything XD.
btw " KUCH TO LOG KAHENGE, LOGO KA KAAM HAI KEHNA" if you know wht it means XD
Would you say then that Allah, Ram, God all encapsulate fully the meaning of Waheguru?
 

Ishna

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Would you say then that Allah, Ram, God all encapsulate fully the meaning of Waheguru?
I know you're not asking me, but I would say those names are used in Gurbani.

I also note that both "God" and "Waheguru" are not personal names.
 

Ishna

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i think it depend from person to person, i generally use "Eternal Entity" or "God".
I dont think if anything is wrong in that cuz WHen you talkin' to someone abt Eternal then you gotta use terminology that evrybdy knows......
There is nothing wrong with "GOD" IMO.
people who object they'll never be satisfied with anything XD.
btw " KUCH TO LOG KAHENGE, LOGO KA KAAM HAI KEHNA" if you know wht it means XD
A kind person in a Sikh chat room translated for me - "People will say what they feel like, that's what their job is."

To express doing what you do without caring what others say, or that someone will have a negative opinion regardless of what you do. :D
 

Harry Haller

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I know you're not asking me, but I would say those names are used in Gurbani.

I also note that both "God" and "Waheguru" are not personal names.
Yes these names are used in Gurbani, but are they there for reference and context, or are they there for description?
 

Ishna

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Yes these names are used in Gurbani, but are they there for reference and context, or are they there for description?
Well, the names are used differently depending on what the author is trying to get across with the broader message of each shabad, but there are plenty of examples where the names Allah and Raam are used in conjunction with other attributes we associate with "Waheguru". There is usually a caveat to the shabads, which goes along the lines of something like Allah and Raam are infinite and dwell in the heart of the devotee. The names are used but the focus is changed.

Does this ultimately mean it doesn't matter which name you use to describe That which resides deep within our hearts?
 
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Harry Haller

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Well, the names are used differently depending on what the author is trying to get across with the broader message of each shabad, but there are plenty of examples where the names Allah and Raam are used in conjunction with other attributes we associate with "Waheguru". There is usually a caveat to the shabads, which goes along the lines of something like Allah and Raam are infinite and dwell in the heart of the devotee. The names are used but the focus is changed.

Does this ultimately mean it doesn't mean which name you use to describe That which resides deep within our hearts?
in my opinion, it does matter, the Allah the muslims worship is a god that most muslims understand to be the giver of bliss and provider of happiness, the Ram the Hindus worship is a god that most Hindus are able to manifest in any manner of beings and objects, and the God the Christians worship has all manner of personality traits that are very human like, so in a sense, is an imperfect being, none seem to ably describe Waheguru
 

Ishna

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in my opinion, it does matter, the Allah the muslims worship is a god that most muslims understand to be the giver of bliss and provider of happiness, the Ram the Hindus worship is a god that most Hindus are able to manifest in any manner of beings and objects, and the God the Christians worship has all manner of personality traits that are very human like, so in a sense, is an imperfect being, none seem to ably describe Waheguru
I get what you're saying on the one hand, but then there are shabads like the one below, and many others. Are you suggesting that this shabad is simply using the word 'Allah' in the last tuk not to mean the Muslim Allah, but as a word that a (perhaps simple?) audience would understand to mean "Allah" but actually orients the listener towards (for lack of better language) Waheguru within?

Like if I can use the "Who Moved My Cheese?" metaphor for example, Kabeer suggests the listener to reflect upon the cheese hidden in each and every heart, but he doesn't actually mean cheese (Allah), he means that if you reflect on cheese hidden in each heart you will hopefully connect with Waheguru?

ਆਸਾ
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ
Rojā ḏẖarai manāvai alhu su▫āḏaṯ jī▫a sangẖārai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
Āpā ḏekẖ avar nahī ḏekẖai kāhe ka▫o jẖakẖ mārai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੋਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ
Kājī sāhib ek ṯohī mėh ṯerā socẖ bicẖār na ḏekẖai.
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.

ਖਬਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Kẖabar na karahi ḏīn ke ba▫ure ṯā ṯe janam alekẖai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ
Sācẖ kaṯeb bakẖānai alhu nār purakẖ nahī ko▫ī.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਪਢੇ ਗੁਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖਬਰਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
Padẖe gune nāhī kacẖẖ ba▫ure ja▫o ḏil mėh kẖabar na ho▫ī. ||2||
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart. ||2||

ਅਲਹੁ ਗੈਬੁ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ
Alhu gaib sagal gẖat bẖīṯar hirḏai leho bicẖārī.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
Hinḏū ṯurak duhū▫aʼn mėh ekai kahai Kabīr pukārī. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||​
 

Logical Sikh

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Would you say then that Allah, Ram, God all encapsulate fully the meaning of Waheguru?
and i dont think even Waheguru defines it all......... Again guru sahib did'nt gave us any new word and said " THIS IS THE NAME OF THE GOD "
For me, if you have any idea of what god is , like gurus had, they found bliss in every name..........
Now if someone is describing thee true nature of god to me, ill say "WAHH" regardless if he used the word ALLAH or AKAAL PURAKH or IK ONKAAR....
 

Harry Haller

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I get what you're saying on the one hand, but then there are shabads like the one below, and many others. Are you suggesting that this shabad is simply using the word 'Allah' in the last tuk not to mean the Muslim Allah, but as a word that a (perhaps simple?) audience would understand to mean "Allah" but actually orients the listener towards (for lack of better language) Waheguru within?

Like if I can use the "Who Moved My Cheese?" metaphor for example, Kabeer suggests the listener to reflect upon the cheese hidden in each and every heart, but he doesn't actually mean cheese (Allah), he means that if you reflect on cheese hidden in each heart you will hopefully connect with Waheguru?

ਆਸਾ
Āsā.
Aasaa:

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ
Rojā ḏẖarai manāvai alhu su▫āḏaṯ jī▫a sangẖārai.
You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

ਆਪਾ ਦੇਖਿ ਅਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਦੇਖੈ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਝਖ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
Āpā ḏekẖ avar nahī ḏekẖai kāhe ka▫o jẖakẖ mārai. ||1||
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕੁ ਤੋਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ
Kājī sāhib ek ṯohī mėh ṯerā socẖ bicẖār na ḏekẖai.
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.

ਖਬਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਬਉਰੇ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਲੇਖੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Kẖabar na karahi ḏīn ke ba▫ure ṯā ṯe janam alekẖai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ
Sācẖ kaṯeb bakẖānai alhu nār purakẖ nahī ko▫ī.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

ਪਢੇ ਗੁਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖਬਰਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
Padẖe gune nāhī kacẖẖ ba▫ure ja▫o ḏil mėh kẖabar na ho▫ī. ||2||
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart. ||2||

ਅਲਹੁ ਗੈਬੁ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ
Alhu gaib sagal gẖat bẖīṯar hirḏai leho bicẖārī.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
Hinḏū ṯurak duhū▫aʼn mėh ekai kahai Kabīr pukārī. ||3||7||29||
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||​

In my own opinion this shabad makes it quite clear that there is a marked difference between Allah and Waheguru, fasting in Sikhism is not the done thing, yet the first line states that

You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

so in this context Allah bears no relation to Waheguru, as one would not keep fasts to please Waheguru
 

Harry Haller

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and i dont think even Waheguru defines it all......... Again guru sahib did'nt gave us any new word and said " THIS IS THE NAME OF THE GOD "
For me, if you have any idea of what god is , like gurus had, they found bliss in every name..........
Now if someone is describing thee true nature of god to me, ill say "WAHH" regardless if he used the word ALLAH or AKAAL PURAKH or IK ONKAAR....
For the moment we are focusing on the major religions, what about the other religions, what about Abraxas? If your point is solid then surely they would have found bliss in the name of Abraxas, or the plethora of greek gods,

Given that anyone can start a religion, and anyone can nominate their own qualities of the God of this religion, it is not a given that automatically, the Gurus would find bliss in it, even if we stick to the Abrahamic, Would the Gurus find bliss in a God that encouraged folks to kill their own sons just to prove they loved him?

Each God has its own facets and personality, EkOnkar also has these, as stated in Mool Mantra, they are not the same facets that other names of God hold, sure respect all Gods, respect all interpretations, but to lump them all together as one, given the clearly different facets seems odd to me.
 

Harry Haller

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abraxus.gif


Abraxas, would the Gurus find bliss in this?

God-100.png


or this?

and even if they could, as all is indeed one, would they worship the above as they worship Waheguru?
 

Logical Sikh

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For the moment we are focusing on the major religions, what about the other religions, what about Abraxas? If your point is solid then surely they would have found bliss in the name of Abraxas, or the plethora of greek gods,

Given that anyone can start a religion, and anyone can nominate their own qualities of the God of this religion, it is not a given that automatically, the Gurus would find bliss in it, even if we stick to the Abrahamic, Would the Gurus find bliss in a God that encouraged folks to kill their own sons just to prove they loved him?

Each God has its own facets and personality, EkOnkar also has these, as stated in Mool Mantra, they are not the same facets that other names of God hold, sure respect all Gods, respect all interpretations, but to lump them all together as one, given the clearly different facets seems odd to me.
C'mon prince harry i said "if someone is describing THR TRUE NATURE OF GOD TO ME -_-.
Ya dont have to come at everything, Sir
 

Harry Haller

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C'mon prince harry i said "if someone is describing THR TRUE NATURE OF GOD TO ME -_-.
Ya dont have to come at everything, Sir
The true nature of God is hugely subjective, You will find Mool Mantra describes the nature of God as per Sikhi, but other religions also maintain that they have the true nature of God, and it differs to the Sikhi nature,

I am not coming at everything, just passing time before the petrol station opens down the road so i can get some breakfast...
 

Logical Sikh

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The true nature of God is hugely subjective, You will find Mool Mantra describes the nature of God as per Sikhi, but other religions also maintain that they have the true nature of God, and it differs to the Sikhi nature,

I am not coming at everything, just passing time before the petrol station opens down the road so i can get some breakfast...
Then ofcourse you'll point something as true nature if it aligns to your GranTh, right ?
 

Harry Haller

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Then ofcourse you'll point something as true nature if it aligns to your GranTh, right ?
the only thing that aligns fully to the SGGS is the SGGS, if you could name something else that aligns fully to the SGGS, I am all ears. Note that it has to fully align, a few similarities is not enough, it either aligns or it does not.

6am! breakfast time!
 

Logical Sikh

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the only thing that aligns fully to the SGGS is the SGGS, if you could name something else that aligns fully to the SGGS, I am all ears. Note that it has to fully align, a few similarities is not enough, it either aligns or it does not.

6am! breakfast time!
Okay XD......
 

Ishna

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In my own opinion this shabad makes it quite clear that there is a marked difference between Allah and Waheguru, fasting in Sikhism is not the done thing, yet the first line states that

You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

so in this context Allah bears no relation to Waheguru, as one would not keep fasts to please Waheguru
You and I seem to be reading the shabad differently, brother.

You're focused on the first line, which to my mind talks about a kind of hypocrisy; if not literally fasting and murdering, then metaphorically illustrating the futility of a hollow ritual to please Allah while simultaneously committing bad deeds.

Kabeer ends by saying Allah is hidden within every heart and implores the Qazi to search there, within himself, to find Allah / the "One Lord".

I think if a bhagat like Kabeer was addressing Christians, he or she might say that God is hidden within every heart and that the Christians should search there instead of eating the bread and drinking the wine to please God one moment and then murdering for pleasure in the next.

But is the Allah within that Kabeer refers to the same as the Allah described by Islam? Probably not. But the word is to a degree transferrable. Just like the word "God".
 

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