Opinion What Is A Sikh? What Is Sikhism?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,387
    Likes Received:
    8,028
    Prompted by a discussion on another thread, My own answer, no idea, absolutely no idea at all, however, I do know what is not a Sikh, and what is not Sikhism, although it is all very subjective.

    If we take what we do know about Sikhism to be true, one fundamental aspect is that there is only one God, but this God is unknowable and cannot be described, therefore, any attempt at mastering life is futile, as our puny human brains would little understand the workings of a higher intelligence, therefore every personal plan or theory is complete and utter rubbish, as if we understand it, by default it cannot be true.

    If we accept that God is all powerful, all seeing and all knowing, then obviously something is amiss, there is too much tragedy in the world for a body to be such, the litmus test does not hold good, so either all the tragedy is a tough lesson and tough love from God, so that one day we may be free of life, or God does not care. If you buy the break the life cycle theory, I guess then that holds good, the starving girl in Africa who has just been gang raped for the third time today deserved it, it was her karam, bad for her, but hopefully she will learn, hmmm, I could not bow down before such a God, sure I can respect another's opinion on the matter, but for me, my God does not listen to prayers for Bunty's desire to find a husband over starving children. Of course the workings of God are beyond us, and there may be a reason that Bunty's lack of suitors is more important to God than tortured kids, but to me, whatever that reason is, does not justify the end.

    So, to me, to pray, to ask, to beg, to want for anything from God is just a bad move, that God that grants these wishes on Karams, sounds more like an entity you do deals with, not a God. Of course one has to define God, but in Sikhism that is impossible so we really are {censored} in the wind.

    I know that Sikhism strips ritual, idol worship, caste, sexism and intermediaries from the relationship with God, we know this, for fact, so we can discount all that, hmmm, not much of that going on...

    I know that in Sikhism one uses one's brain above anything and everything else. I think we struggle with this, we reject common sense in the name of religion, if someone has to ask whether its ok for a surgeon to shave them before surgery, to my mind, that indicates no brain activity at all, just follow the rhetoric, yet such questions are common,

    Here in the UK, I have noted an alarming rise in idiots sitting at red lights while ambulances sit behind them, sirens screaming, lights flashing, because the idiot will not go through the red light, because that is what the law says, such seems common in Sikhism, we seem to follow the law, to the letter, without discretion, without intelligence, without applying wisdom.

    I personally find the behavior of those that sweat the small stuff the funniest, they give no thought to whether their actions are in line with God, but obsess over the peripheral, the small stuff, the irrelevant stuff, to some Sikhism is about great actions and then uniting with God, and living in bliss for eternity, to me Sikhism is about today, now, about seeing that ambulance and flooring your car through that red light, and to hell with the law.

    So my take on God and life is not what I don't know, its about what I know and filling in the blanks

    I could not insult a great religion by pretending to know all about it, but I get pleasure when thoughts that I feel are true, align with true Sikh philosophy, however, that does not make me a Sikh, not in the traditional sense anyway, and I cannot stand up and proclaim my thoughts and call them Sikh, for that would be an insult to the rest of you.

    So that is what Sikhism is to me, and as for what is a Sikh, still no idea, other opinions welcome.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Loved It! Loved It! x 1
  2. Loading...


  3. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    143
    God made it as simple as possible for us by blessing us with Gurbani.

    Being Sikh is following and applying Gurbani to your life.

    Simple.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    I don't agree with what you have to say here.

    I think your approach is fundamentally flawed.. Try with 'what is it'.. A sikh is somebody who acts selflessly. A sikh is someone who humble. A sikh believes all people are equal..
     
  5. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    Really Sukhsingh?

    Kindly state whether this is entirely your own "opinion", or provide supporting evidence.

    Sat Sri Akal (means God is Truth, so please be truthful)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    I'm sorry but unless you have a specific line of questioning or comments about one of my articulations I can't really respond..

    These are my opinions and thoughts and I'm wholly prepared to modify them if convinced..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    @sukhsingh

    I'm most happy to oblige you.

    Kindly explain why, quoting sources.

    Kindly explain why, quoting sources.

    Kindly explain why again, quoting sources

    Kindly explain why, quoting sources

    And please, kindly state whether it is entirely your own opinion or if it is based on some evidence. If the latter, kindly state the source.

    At this stage, I am not contesting any or all of your statements. I, and others, need reasoning, a constructive opinion and/or a recognisable and acceptable resource.

    The waters of issues about Sikhs and Sikhism have been muddied enough already through the decades. Let us not add to that.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  8. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    Bro
    Brother sat Sri akaal is not so easily transliterated

    Truth Lord eternal?
    Truth supreme Lord?
     
  9. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    1 onkaar
    Kirat karo
    Dispel ahankar
    Sarbat da bhalla
     
  10. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    @Harry Haller

    I am most impressed by your candour. It is refreshing that you chose to open this debate through a different angle - as to "What is not a Sikh".

    I hope that many more SPNers will take part in this debate, other than the few who have taken any interest in recent times, that I can count on one or two hands.

    I'm only a newcomer to SPN, so kindly allow me some time.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,387
    Likes Received:
    8,028
    but your actually making my very point, it is not the verb that is the issue, it is to what extent you pursue that verb, to what degree should one be selfless, humble? all the way? a bit? a bit more than yesterday? can one be humble and selfless to the point of self destruction? Can humble and selfless actions end up with bad consequences? Is it selfless to allow a starving thief to leave unharmed and with a sandwich, and allow him to carry on thieving? Would his next victim thank you? Can one be truly humble in business? or in a work environment when you have a wife and kids to feed? or do we just dip our toe into it all at our convenience and in whatever degree we find comfortable at that time?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,387
    Likes Received:
    8,028
    again, that is not the issue, to what degree is the issue, and should one be aware of the consequences of our actions, or is that not important? is it as long as the action is in line with Gurbani? is it as long as our driving is within the highway code? where is the discretion in your statement? how do you allow for ambulances?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    I shall ponder upon that!
    Thanks
     
  14. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    @sukhsingh

    I think I understand what you are trying to say.
    This appears to be simply your opinion, and not something stated in a resource. Right?

    Sukhsingh Ji, I was interested as to where you had got your statements of Sikh qualities, because I wanted to learn further from your resource (and I clearly did not refer to the source or meaning of "Sat Sri Akal").

    To SPNers:

    If so, these are admirable qualities to aspire to, don't you agree? I believe that aspiration is the key, because I, myself do not have these qualities or at least not in full. Harry Haller did refer to this - the degree idea. So sometimes I act selflessly, but at other times, I don't. I concur with Harry's observation - to what degree? Is one selfless 20% of the time or 60%. What is the acceptable degree of quality?

    This begs the question - Is a Sikh an all or none situation? If it is "an all" situation, I, at least am not a Sikh, as I think Harry also believes for himself, too. In this scenario, practically most of the so-called Sikhs would be non-Sikhs, would you not agree? On the other hand, in the "none" situation, I am aspiring to those qualities. So, does the concept of a Sikh include one or all the following: [1] a new starter with no or some qualities, [2] someone who has been on the aspiration path but has not achieved the "all" [the in-betweener of the all or noners], and [3] someone who has achieved "all"?

    Harry Haller, in another way, gives strength to this idea, by his illustrations of ordinary people at the coal-face of life. If we were all, The Sikhs of all the lofty qualities (possessing and professing them in deed and thought), then the world today would be a different place. Sat Yug maybe? However, we are in Kal Yug. (I have no problem if someone says that he is an "all" Sikh. That is his/her word, his/her opinion, his/her belief and is entirely a matter of that individuals conscience, simply because these qualities are not measurable by humans).

    To my mind, therefore, the definition of a Sikh lies in what we believe we want to be, not what we are.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    I personally find no need to find a definition of a sikh.. Seems like a oxymoron..
    I think we should understand who 'we' are.

    I think mool mantar offers a reference point to the qualities I mentioned amongst other things
     
  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,387
    Likes Received:
    8,028
    So you believe in reincarnation and yugs, I believe in death and nothing, which of us is a Sikh?

    UHm ok, are the 3HO guys Sikh? the Nirankaris? Udasis? Namdharis? are they Sikh? What about screaming Lord Sutch? was he a Sikh? if you have no definition of a Sikh then what are we all doing here? why are we not on the clown forums? ok, I actually am, but what about the rest of you? Are you saying we are all Sikhs? I would say we are all seeking, for sure, but what do you call someone who has grasped Sikhism completely, not that I have a habit of meeting such types, although I have met plenty that have pummeled it into something they can live, but is that good enough, what is good enough? if we are all Sikhs then this forum is just a collection of opinions that can not be proven right or wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    Kindly explain this in detail, for I am at a loss.

    To clarify -[1] Why do you not find any need to define a Sikh? [2] Who does oxymoron refer to and why?

    Sat Sri Akal
     
  18. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    41
    Oops. I am seeing my answer in 2 different threads. Maybe the site is upgrading and is therefore responsible.

    I'll wait until Aman Singh has sorted his site out.

    Good Night.
     
  19. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    Brother once you define you exclude.. And thats a dangerous thing to do a student of truth
     
  20. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    The de
    The desire to seek definition or certainty is noble but the moment one defines such a term as sikh then surely one has missed the point?
     
  21. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    179
    Oxymoron because a student of truth is by nature open to be challenged
     

Share This Page