Islam What Do You Think Of Islam?

[aristotle]

Yes, here it is:

[4:16]*And those of your women who are guilty of lewdness — call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses until death overtake them or Allah open for them a way.

[4:17]*And if two men from among you are guilty of it, punish them both. And if they repent and amend, then leave them alone; surely, Allah is Oft-Returning*with compassion and is*Merciful.

From here: http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=4&verse=11

Also

Ibn Abbas narrated: "Both possessions and will belonged to the parents and the next of kin. God abrogated of this what He wished, and gave the male a double portion of the female."
(Hadith Ibn Abbas, 4:276)

and what about the testimony of women being only the worth as that of a male testimony,

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the
sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.
(Al Baqarah 2:282, Qur'an)

 

[Ishna]

The rules for inheritance can be understood when we consider the societal system at large - men supporting women. It makes more sense to give men more with which to support their women, and women less and they already have what their man is supporting them with.

Regarding the testimony of two women in place of one man, this is in the context of legal contracts / monetary contracts and is an acknowledgement of the lower literacy level of these women, again as a result of the society.

In context I personally don't see how these two points are unfair, and in fact they make sense.

Idealistically, however, by entrenching them as sacred writ, it does inhibit the growth of women and the advancement of women's rights and freedom.

It is also an interesting note that Muslims will argue the point about the two women testimony thing, with relation to business contracts, as compensating for their illiteracy, yet when we read the Psalms of the Old Testament (which is a Jewish scripture, predating the Quran and even Christian's New Testament) women are praised for running a home and her own land and business. Ergo, Quran is behind the Torah in this specific area.

 

[aristotle]

In context I personally don't see how these two points are unfair, and in fact they make sense.

Idealistically, however, by entrenching them as sacred writ, it does inhibit the growth of women and the advancement of women's rights and freedom.

Ishna Ji,

Qur'an is the Islamic equivalent for Word of God. Which means there won't be any better deal for women as Muhammad according to Islam was the last Prophet, there would be no fresh revelations on any Prophet now.

The question of society and circumstances (lower literacy, societal norms etc) would arise if Qur'an were revealed only for Arabs of Muhammad's times, but most Muslims believe it applies to all people at all times, being the unchanging Word of God. So, don't you think it would be applied on educated housewives and corporate women too, and I can only imagine the ramifications.

 

[Ishna]

Ishna Ji,

Qur'an is the Islamic equivalent for Word of God. Which means there won't be any better deal for women as Muhammad according to Islam was the last Prophet, there would be no fresh revelations on any Prophet now.

The question of society and circumstances (lower literacy, societal norms etc) would arise if Qur'an were revealed only for Arabs of Muhammad's times, but most Muslims believe it applies to all people at all times, being the unchanging Word of God. So, don't you think it would be applied on educated housewives and corporate women too, and I can only imagine the ramifications.

You nailed the issue precisely, bhaji!

 

[kds1980]

Why is halaal meat prescribed for muslims? I don't really know but i do know that halaal meat does taste better. I've had chinese mutton soup and it's tough and reeks as compared to the indian muslim mutton dishes. Also, i've read that blood of animals is nutritious. Nothing can be further from the truth. Pig's blood (yes i have had it and loved it), is banned from many a country, primarily because of the contamination factor that is prevalent in blood.

I can't believe that someone will think that Indian mutton dishes are tasty because of halaal meat.Indian mutton dishes are tasty because the way they are prepared and not because of halaal meat.Many Sikh restaurent owners are famous in India for making tasty mutton and chicken dishes and they use Jhatka meat.

Its very difficult for an average person to find the difference between halal , jhatka or western style of slaughter meat , if they are prepared in same way

 

[choochoochan]

I could have guessed !
I've never come across a man that has converted, have you ?

Same rights to BOTH men and women ??
Oh yeah, I nearly forgot.... sex between a 53 year old man and a 9 year old girl is equal rights, because there is no discrimination of age into the equation !
Is this sexual relationship classed as immoral or moral ?

Yes, i have met men who have converted.

The issue of sexual relations, legal ones thru marriage is only viewed in that perspective within backward societies. The main propogation of such a belief lies in Aisha getting married at 7 ( i think) and subsequently consummated the marriage at 9. Most muslims, do not believe it is right for a 9 yr old girl to be getting married. Have you personally met any muslims who think this is acceptable? I have not. As regards Aisha's age, Aisha was allowed into the battlefield with the Prophet, and that negates the belief that she was that young when she got married.

http://turntoislam.com/community/threads/was-aisha-really-9.49982/

To get married, both parties must know what they are getting into, or at least have the mental capacity to comprehend that. That marriage is not only AMORAL, it's haraam for a 9 yr old girl will not have the mental capacity to understand what is going on.

 

[choochoochan]

Yes, here it is:

[4:16]*And those of your women who are guilty of lewdness — call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses until death overtake them or Allah open for them a way.

[4:17]*And if two men from among you are guilty of it, punish them both. And if they repent and amend, then leave them alone; surely, Allah is Oft-Returning*with compassion and is*Merciful.

From here: http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=4&verse=11

4:17, is about repentance.

Yusuf Ali : Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil, in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them, will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

You're talking about 4:15 which must be read with 4:16, about unlawful relations between a man and a woman. And the final limb of 4:16 is about? Repentance.

Yusuf Ali : If two persons among you are guilty of lewdness punish them both. If they repent and amend leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

This is the message which idiots like the Taliban keep ignoring. The Quran is peppered with statements about the forgiving and merciful nature of God. If God is forgiving, shouldn't Man be?

 

[choochoochan]

[4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.


don't forget 4.12, where men get twice the inheritance than women..

also .........4.34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


I could go on..........but I think we all get the point !
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts

I have no issue with inheritance. I am not what my parents left for me. In any event, this can be settled through Faraidh. If the heir agrees to part with his inheritance to those who need it more (and rightfully, in the spirit of the Quran, they must), then their share can go towards some other heir.

Regarding 4:24, i confess, i was disturbed by this, especially the commandment that men are allowed to "beat" their wives. It totally did not gel with the spirit of the Quran. I couldn't reconcile my beliefs, internal ones with this. I searched the net, and true enough, this one verse is hotly debated. The key word is idribuhanna (think i spelled it wrong). Some interpretations use the root word as a separation, a parting, like this one.

"34. Men are guardians of women, because Allah has made one superior to the other, and (also) because men spend their wealth (on them). So the pious wives are obedient. They guard (their chastity) in the absence of their husbands with the protection of Allah. But those women whom you fear will disobey and defy, admonish them; and (if they do not amend) separate them (from yourselves) in beds; and (if they still do not improve) turn away from them, striking a temporary parting. Then if they become cooperative with you, do not seek any way against them. Surely, Allah is Most High, Most Great."

I am actually disappointed. No one said a woman is not allowed to divorce her husband! Ok no one asked, but she is allowed to. It's not known as talaaq, but the al-khud, for God listened to the woman who complained.

"God has indeed heard (and accepted) the statement of the woman who pleads with thee concerning her husband and carries her complaint (in prayer) to God: and God (always) hears the arguments between both of you: for God hears and sees (all things)."
— Qur'an, Sura 58 (Al-Mujadila), ayat 1

 

[choochoochan]

Ishna Ji,

Qur'an is the Islamic equivalent for Word of God. Which means there won't be any better deal for women as Muhammad according to Islam was the last Prophet, there would be no fresh revelations on any Prophet now.

The question of society and circumstances (lower literacy, societal norms etc) would arise if Qur'an were revealed only for Arabs of Muhammad's times, but most Muslims believe it applies to all people at all times, being the unchanging Word of God. So, don't you think it would be applied on educated housewives and corporate women too, and I can only imagine the ramifications.

It applied to Khadijah, who was Muhammad's first wife and a prominent business woman in the area during the time.

Aisha joined in for the battles they had.

However, i will concede this one thing. A teleological approach to the quran MUST be adopted by muslims, including myself. I do not like this literal approach which confines much to the era of Muhammad.

 

[choochoochan]

I can't believe that someone will think that Indian mutton dishes are tasty because of halaal meat.Indian mutton dishes are tasty because the way they are prepared and not because of halaal meat.Many Sikh restaurent owners are famous in India for making tasty mutton and chicken dishes and they use Jhatka meat.

Its very difficult for an average person to find the difference between halal , jhatka or western style of slaughter meat , if they are prepared in same way

Most indian stalls here use halal meat. It's rare to find mutton which is not halal unless you patronise the chinese stalls.

In any event, the indian stalls i was referring to would be the indian muslim stalls which make tonnes of mutton dishes.

Halal meat is more tender. As someone who has had simple chicken dishes, halal and non halal ones, it is evident. Anyway, the biggest thing about halal meat is that it removes (or tries at least), to remove most of the blood, which is known to carry viruses and diseases. Blood is the playground of germs.

Jhatka from what i understand, is a blow to the animal's head before it knows what hit it. A violent blow to the head, which is not allowed in the Quran.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Hello choo ji,


May I ask why allah gave man exclusive right to beat his wife?

 

[Luckysingh]

I am actually disappointed. No one said a woman is not allowed to divorce her husband! Ok no one asked, but she is allowed to. It's not known as talaaq, but the al-khud, for God listened to the woman who complained.

Yes a woman can have a divorce but she has to plead before the court or judge unlike the man that can have a divorce for any reason he chooses and simply has to say ''talaak' 3 times !

The man can also have up to 4 wives but not 5 !
whereas the women can only have One.
She has to be satisfied by One only.

As for the jhatka vs halal, I've discussed this in detail on another thread and proven that halal is actually more painful and more of a torture nature than jhatka.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/1717-is-halal-meat-scientifically-proven-right-9.html#post161839

The reasons and explanations given here are simplified from a neurologists view !

 

[Harry Haller]

Most indian stalls here use halal meat. It's rare to find mutton which is not halal unless you patronise the chinese stalls.

In any event, the indian stalls i was referring to would be the indian muslim stalls which make tonnes of mutton dishes.

Halal meat is more tender. As someone who has had simple chicken dishes, halal and non halal ones, it is evident. Anyway, the biggest thing about halal meat is that it removes (or tries at least), to remove most of the blood, which is known to carry viruses and diseases. Blood is the playground of germs.

Jhatka from what i understand, is a blow to the animal's head before it knows what hit it. A violent blow to the head, which is not allowed in the Quran.

Choochji

is a violent blow to the head in a human allowed, say if they were infidels?

 

[choochoochan]

Yes a woman can have a divorce but she has to plead before the court or judge unlike the man that can have a divorce for any reason he chooses and simply has to say ''talaak' 3 times !

The man can also have up to 4 wives but not 5 !
whereas the women can only have One.
She has to be satisfied by One only.

As for the jhatka vs halal, I've discussed this in detail on another thread and proven that halal is actually more painful and more of a torture nature than jhatka.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/1717-is-halal-meat-scientifically-proven-right-9.html#post161839

The reasons and explanations given here are simplified from a neurologists view !

Ok. You want me to quote the verse after the one which allows the men to have 4 wives? Which talks about marrying only one because it's impossible to provide justice for for all your wives?

The issue is, you're taking away a life. I never agreed with jhatka. If you're taking a life so that your tummy be satiated, please have to courage to confront the animal. Not just level a blow to its head. The Quran also prohibits meat from hunting expeditions. Killing an animal is never for fun. You're taking a life so that you are able to eat. And if you're gonna do it, confront the animal. If you're afraid that the animal will feel pain, then don't kill it! Simple as that! Stick to dhal!

 

[choochoochan]

choochji

is a violent blow to the head in a human allowed, say if they were infidels?

no.

 

[Harry Haller]

Ok. You want me to quote the verse after the one which allows the men to have 4 wives? Which talks about marrying only one because it's impossible to provide justice for for all your wives?

The issue is, you're taking away a life. I never agreed with jhatka. If you're taking a life so that your tummy be satiated, please have to courage to confront the animal. Not just level a blow to its head. The Quran also prohibits meat from hunting expeditions. Killing an animal is never for fun. You're taking a life so that you are able to eat. And if you're gonna do it, confront the animal. If you're afraid that the animal will feel pain, then don't kill it! Simple as that! Stick to dhal!

seems animals have it better than infidels Choochji,

 

[Luckysingh]

Ok. You want me to quote the verse after the one which allows the men to have 4 wives? Which talks about marrying only one because it's impossible to provide justice for for all your wives?

I can find that if you need.......don't worry

The issue is, you're taking away a life. I never agreed with jhatka. If you're taking a life so that your tummy be satiated, please have to courage to confront the animal. Not just level a blow to its head. The Quran also prohibits meat from hunting expeditions. Killing an animal is never for fun. You're taking a life so that you are able to eat. And if you're gonna do it, confront the animal. If you're afraid that the animal will feel pain, then don't kill it! Simple as that! Stick to dhal!

If you look at my first post there, I've already made that point about taking a life is taking a life, no matter if it be jhatka or halal. It's just that the halal brigade are adamant that they are doing the poor animal a favor !!
Now, you say eat dhal and are acting extremely humane and animal conscious, whereas earlier you were bragging about the halal taste !
What's all the 'turning the tables' about ??

 

[Luckysingh]

Choochji

is a violent blow to the head in a human allowed, say if they were infidels?

a blow ?? or a detonated explosion ?:realangrymunda:

 

[Harry Haller]

Choochji

I am glad that you have found a way of life that you are happy with, what happens sometimes in enthusiastic writing is that slowly the writing turns into proselytism, and those that do not share your enthusiasm may start questioning the validity of such, or indeed the intentions.

let us all get back to topic before adminji wakes up

 

[Ishna]

4:17, is about repentance.

Yusuf Ali : Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil, in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them, will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

You're talking about 4:15 which must be read with 4:16, about unlawful relations between a man and a woman. And the final limb of 4:16 is about? Repentance.

Yusuf Ali : If two persons among you are guilty of lewdness punish them both. If they repent and amend leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

This is the message which idiots like the Taliban keep ignoring. The Quran is peppered with statements about the forgiving and merciful nature of God. If God is forgiving, shouldn't Man be?

The alislam site must have it's verses mixed up then.

Here's another site: http://www.clearquran.com/quran-chapter-004.html

Let's post verses 15 and 16 instead then:

15. Those of your women who commit lewdness, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they testify, confine them to the homes until death claims them, or God makes a way for them.
16. If two men among you commit it, punish them both. But if they repent and reform, leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Full of Mercy.
​

Why are women placed under house arrest until they die, but the men can go free?