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Leisure What Do The Five Thieves Steal?

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Why are they described by the Guru as thieves and what is actually being stolen?

How do they influence our actions and cause us to commit immoral acts.
Are they a Self made diseases to some extent.

Was it God who created Lust,Anger,Greed,Attachment and Pride ?
Why would God challenge us in this way and give us something that we have to later eradicate ?

Why are they called Vices ?
(Vice is a practice or a behavior considered immoral, depraved, and/or degrading in the associated society)Wiki
 

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Ambarsaria

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Re: Who created the Five Thieves?

Creation created man and asked such to survive and get/create physical, mental and spiritual tools that are needed. Man understood or mis-understood the message! Rest is history.

There are no five thieves. They are just traits that are needed at times and misused many a times. Balanced management of these is all that is needed. You cannot live by killing them or putting them in jail :interestedmunda:. Lot of good energy is wasted by brilliant people on this false pursuit of eradicating the so called "five thieves".

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ambarsaria

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Re: Who created the Five Thieves?

Veer Ji I think of personality traits like someone being kindly or cantankerous, I always separated these five as it hard to say attachment or lust is a personality trait ,as they do exist in themselves but affect us.Gravity I think is created by mass and is really the object falling and we go with it, so we know what creates that force and it's use.Greed does not seem very useful or perhaps it is what makes the world go round.:mundabhangra:
Greed is when a squirrel hides too many nuts away for winter

Squirrel Hiding his Nuts HD - YouTube

Now you tell me if the baby squirrel in the following is greedy and who taught her that,

Baby Squirrel Hiding a Nut in His Towel - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Embers

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Re: Who created the Five Thieves?

Chardi kala

The five are born from the three qualities which operate on the mind. They are a product of His creation:

Page 1190, Line 17
ਨਉ ਸਤ ਚਉਦਹ ਤੀਨਿ ਚਾਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਹਲਤਿ ਚਾਰਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥
नउ सत चउदह तीनि चारि करि महलति चारि बहाली ॥
Na▫o saṯ cẖa▫oḏah ṯīn cẖār kar mahlaṯ cẖār bahālī.
The nine regions, the seven continents, the fourteen worlds, the three qualities and the four ages - You established them all through the four sources of creation, and You seated them in Your mansions.
Guru Nanak Dev
 

Seeker9

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Re: Who created the Five Thieves?

A thought just occurred to me as I read this thread...what if they are a deliberate part of the creation to test our worth and accrue Karma accordingly?
 

Ishna

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Re: Who created the Five Thieves?

I'm going to stick with the argument that we evolved this way. The 5 vices had a part to play before our brains developed to the state they are now (well, most of us). I don't think they were explicitly created for any purpose other than for our caveman brothers and sisters to survive way back when.

As we have evolved and created communities we have begun self-regulating. Society functions better if we subdue the primitive urges which we no longer need. Religion helps massively to control people. Initially perhaps religion was an attempt to control the unruly masses. As we have continued to develop, we can conceive ourselves now the benefits of subduing our vices for ourselves and the greater good.

I don't think there is a creator of vices so interested in our little human lives that it would put up challenges on purpose to see how we fare. Everything just IS.

And we see, and learn, and realise that good actions make us feel closer, and bad actions make us feel worse (further away).

But then, I always ask myself, the psychopath who goes on a rampage, he may feel as close as any of us righteous peeps due to the nature of his psychology.
 

Harry Haller

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Sinner brother

I have to confess to enjoying enormously these threads you keep starting, they make us all think, and I find a personal question much more interesting to debate rather than an article or news story.

I have reconciled this in my personal life as follows, I have a brain, in that brain is the Guru's voice, it is a pure voice, and if I were to pay close attention to it, I would be an ascetic. I would go and live on a mountain top and find the answers to all my questions. So what is stopping me from doing this? Well the five thieves to start off with, they belong to my body, and they want satisfying!, the internal conflict between say, whether to have aloo prontha, or not, is between my head, which is guided by Guru, and my body, which is guided by the need for sensory pleasure. Some people find this sensory pleasure can be activated in many ways, in having a better car than another, a prettier wife, being the subject of envy, behaving arrogantly, belittling others, even before you start with sex, or food, or drugs, there are a myriad of pleasures all to do with making yourself feel better and more important than others, was it not the baddy from superman 3 that said 'it is not enough that I should win, everyone else should lose',so moving onto sex, food, drugs, I disagree that lust is needed to have children, that is love, not lust, in the same way that you do not need a 3 course meal to stave off hunger. I am childless, but when I was younger, and full of lust, I made a promise to myself that if I ever had a child, I would want it born out of a loving interaction rather than a lustful one.

For me the secret is balance, for if that balance were to go either way, I could find myself either in the fleshspots of Amsterdam, or a mountain peak in Tibet, none of which I find particularly appealing, but the balance, what Sikhism tries to teach us, is that balance is, I would say almost the meaning of life, find that balance, the ability to live, and achieve the best you can, to get on with the rest of the planet and its inhabitants, whilst being happy and advancing mentally, and socially, I think is what the object of the game is, Live in the Gurus house, enjoy Gurus food, enjoy Gurus entertainments, remember and thank Guru in whatever way you can, without guilt, without shame, open the shutters in your head to allow the light that lives inside you to illuminate yourself and others, embrace your body, embrace your goals, embrace that 1994 blue V8 4.2 LSE, live, be happy

:)
 

Ishna

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It appears the title of the thread has changed from 'who created the five thieves' to 'what do the five thieves steal'. My initial answers were about the creation of the five thieves, and I still believe they are relics from our primitive heritage.

Back then they were natural and possibly amoral - I don't know, I wasn't there at the time! But I figure, we were more like animals back then with less complicated thought. It is the evolution of people (ironically) which has caused these primitive urges to become vices or thieves.

I don't argue that they are not thieves now! What do they steal? Our sense of peace and our chance for Realisation. We strive to see the Creative Force and act accordingly and the vices can make us act contrary to how it is recommended by Guruji.

That's my interpretation, I hope it's clearer. I am in tremendous agreement with Harry bhaji.

When it comes to animals, I hate to sing the same tune as in another recent thread, but animals engage in behaviour that we as moderately evolved creatures regard as immoral. Dolphins gang-rape other dolphins. She tries to swim away, they chase her, bite her, and have their way. Camels usually roam in groups, a female has to stop and give birth to her baby, she is separated from her group, and it happens that a marauding group of male camels find her, stomp her little newborn to death and each mate with her. If a human was to do that, we would be horrified! But in the animal world it's ok?

Probably the stuff of another thread, however.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Why are they described by the Guru as thieves and what is actually being stolen?
They are definitely stealing your time on Earth. The valuable time which you can use to connect to God and Universe.

How do they influence our actions and cause us to commit immoral acts.
Most religions believe that they disconnect the mind from the conscience/soul while acting.

Was it God who created Lust,Anger,Greed,Attachment and Pride ?
Why would God challenge us in this way and give us something that we have to later eradicate?
It is all Nature's play. What we are looking at is individual's thinking level. Go a little higher up, why would God create Wheat and other plants only to have it destroyed by blight and mice.

Why are they called Vices ?
(Vice is a practice or a behavior considered immoral, depraved, and/or degrading in the associated society)Wiki<!-- google_ad_section_end --> **
I think it connects vice more with the vicious circle, forcing you to go into that mode again and again.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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They are definitely stealing your time on Earth. The valuable time which you can use to connect to God and Universe.
Or are they stealing our sensibility

Most religions believe that they disconnect the mind from the conscience/soul while acting.
Do they really disconnect the Soul-mind?

It is all Nature's play. What we are looking at is individual's thinking level. Go a little higher up, why would God create Wheat and other plants only to have it destroyed by blight and mice.
Not really sure about that as the wheat does not act?
I think it connects vice more with the vicious circle, forcing you to go into that mode again and again.
Perhaps
Thanks for answering Veer Ji
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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Yes you are correct they probably steal more of your sensibility than time. I find myself wasting time too. And there is definitely a disconnect between soul and mind, which I think you have hinted at by saying a loss of sensibility (soul is sensible right?).

And what I am saying is that, all things in nature are bound in their existence by some opposing force. And humans might be skillful, intellectual and all. Yet they are still bound or brought down by the five vices.

Why would God challenge us in this way and give us something that we have to later eradicate?
The vices will always be a part of you. You cannot eradicate them. You should control them rather than they controlling you. Like Harry veerji said in some other thread, life is about which wolf you feed inside, good or bad.
 

Ambarsaria

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Sinner ji I have reworked my material to suit your new needs (lol lol mundahug). Here it goes,

Note: This is my personal opinion and does not represent the official position of the Musketeers.


So the dialog is much to do with duality between a possible Good state and possible bad state about the "so called" five elements of human behavior or activity. Is it like Robin Hood that same can appear as good to some and bad to others. Of course it can as in the following,

Classic Cartoons - Robin Hood Makes Good - YouTube

Now back to specifics of the topic,
Why are they described by the Guru as thieves and what is actually being stolen?
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Please quote a complete shabad so we may review[/FONT]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
How do they influence our actions and cause us to commit immoral acts.
Are they a Self made diseases to some extent.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> We are a duality based animal. Have you ever talked to yourself with or without the thieves being in presence? I would love to meet someone who has not. So “so called” thieves are a constructs in moral fabric of humans which culturally and socially we have developed over time. So called thieves are just some metrics that come into play in defining acceptable or un-acceptable attributes or actions. With extremes of imbalance to acceptable norms, one gets reactions from self and others in recognition of such extremes.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Extreme conditions in the five can lead to mental disease, hermetic living, rape, murder, and many behaviors considered extremes by a given society. The extremes that trigger such responses do vary by groups geographically and anywhere collectively.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->The “so called’ five thieves are not a disease. They are a learned behavior ultimately interacting with chemicals and other triggers in the being that we are.

[/FONT]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
Was it God who created Lust, Anger, Greed, Attachment and Pride ?
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->From a Sikhism perspective God/Creator has provided creation which we are part of. Whether “so called” thieves are by birth inherent in life, I do not know. As genetics digs further it perhaps will be better understood.

[/FONT]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
Why would God challenge us in this way and give us something that we have to later eradicate ?
[/FONT]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> God/Creator at a personal level is not engaged with us but trusts us. We have a path of existence with rest of creation or a path of non-existence. These are long term phenomenon and unknown to me. Depending on the answer to whether such are intrinsic or extrinsic will determine a complete answer to such.

Why are they called Vices ?
(Vice is a practice or a behavior considered immoral, depraved, and/or degrading in the associated society)Wiki **
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Human definition as we do not know how same are treated in other life forms. These are defined as deviations from acceptable norms in society. A Lion does not care if two people are Gay, Lesbian, are diseased or dumb as a door knob. Society may have opinions.

Brother hope the above is in order and for comments and learning.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ishna

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Reflections on Gurbani: Five Water Carriers by T. Singh

This link may be interesting for some.

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਬਸੰਤੁ ਹਿੰਡੋਲ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
बसंतु हिंडोल महला ४ घरु २
Basanṯ hindol mėhlā 4 gẖar 2
Basant Hindol, Fourth Mehl, Second House:

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨ ਕੋਠੜੀ ਗੜ ਮੰਦਰਿ ਏਕ ਲੁਕਾਨੀ
राम नामु रतन कोठड़ी गड़ मंदरि एक लुकानी ॥
Rām nām raṯan koṯẖ▫ṛī gaṛ manḏar ek lukānī.
The Lord's Name is a jewel, hidden in a chamber of the palace of the body-fortress.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਖੋਜੀਐ ਮਿਲਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥
सतिगुरु मिलै त खोजीऐ मिलि जोती जोति समानी ॥१॥
Saṯgur milai ṯa kẖojī▫ai mil joṯī joṯ samānī. ||1||
When one meets the True Guru, then he searches and finds it, and his light merges with the Divine Light. ||1||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਮਾਧੋ ਸਾਧੂ ਜਨ ਦੇਹੁ ਮਿਲਾਇ
माधो साधू जन देहु मिलाइ ॥
Māḏẖo sāḏẖū jan ḏeh milā▫e.
O Lord, lead me to meet with the Holy Person, the Guru.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਦੇਖਤ ਦਰਸੁ ਪਾਪ ਸਭਿ ਨਾਸਹਿ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
देखत दरसु पाप सभि नासहि पवित्र परम पदु पाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏekẖaṯ ḏaras pāp sabẖ nāsėh paviṯar param paḏ pā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, all my sins are erased, and I obtain the supreme, sublime, sanctified status. ||1||Pause||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪੰਚ ਚੋਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਲਾਗੇ ਨਗਰੀਆ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਹਿਰਿਆ
पंच चोर मिलि लागे नगरीआ राम नाम धनु हिरिआ ॥
Pancẖ cẖor mil lāge nagrī▫ā rām nām ḏẖan hiri▫ā.
The five thieves join together and plunder the body-village, stealing the wealth of the Lord's Name.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਖੋਜ ਪਰੇ ਤਬ ਪਕਰੇ ਧਨੁ ਸਾਬਤੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਉਬਰਿਆ ॥੨॥
गुरमति खोज परे तब पकरे धनु साबतु रासि उबरिआ ॥२॥
Gurmaṯ kẖoj pare ṯab pakre ḏẖan sābaṯ rās ubri▫ā. ||2||
But through the Guru's Teachings, they are traced and caught, and this wealth is recovered intact. ||2||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਪਾਖੰਡ ਭਰਮ ਉਪਾਵ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਕੇ ਰਿਦ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ
पाखंड भरम उपाव करि थाके रिद अंतरि माइआ माइआ ॥
Pakẖand bẖaram upāv kar thāke riḏ anṯar mā▫i▫ā mā▫i▫ā.
Practicing hypocrisy and superstition, people have grown weary of the effort, but still, deep within their hearts, they yearn for Maya, Maya.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਸਾਧੂ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖਪਤਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਧੇਰੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
साधू पुरखु पुरखपति पाइआ अगिआन अंधेरु गवाइआ ॥३॥
Sāḏẖū purakẖ purakẖpaṯ pā▫i▫ā agi▫ān anḏẖer gavā▫i▫ā. ||3||
By the Grace of the Holy Person, I have met with the Lord, the Primal Being, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. ||3||

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਾਧੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ
जगंनाथ जगदीस गुसाई करि किरपा साधु मिलावै ॥
Jagannāth jagḏīs gusā▫ī kar kirpā sāḏẖ milāvai.
The Lord, the Lord of the Earth, the Lord of the Universe, in His Mercy, leads me to meet the Holy Person, the Guru.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥
नानक सांति होवै मन अंतरि नित हिरदै हरि गुण गावै ॥४॥१॥३॥
Nānak sāʼnṯ hovai man anṯar niṯ hirḏai har guṇ gāvai. ||4||1||3||
O Nanak, peace then comes to abide deep within my mind, and I constantly sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord within my heart. ||4||1||3||
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ambarsaria ji, here 'Chor' is translated as 'thief'. You have been saying "so-called thieves" and to me that implies that thief is the wrong translation of the word 'chor'?

Thanks.
 

Ambarsaria

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Isna ji thanks for a good shabad quotation. A comment on the following,

Ambarsaria ji, here 'Chor' is translated as 'thief'. You have been saying "so-called thieves" and to me that implies that thief is the wrong translation of the word 'chor'?
What one needs to remember is that the symbolism "chor" refers to a "functionality of something good or of value taken away that belongs to you". There is no specification of such a "chor" or thief and not an elaboration whether there are specialist "chors" related to each one of the elements. So the essence is losing something. In this shabad who is taking away this, oneself. After "rahao" it tells you how you lost as though stolen from you. Now it does not flag a specific thief to be caught. The "Gurmat" is identified as what helps. So this is where the interactions of Gurbani as a whole and shabads and many shabads would paint a picture.

The last line/tuk emphasizes the need to remember the virtues of the creator and hence the creation all around. The more you do so, your actions will synergize with the creator and you will feel as though blessed by the creator directly even though all actions are being taken by you with good living (company of the good). The linking of the almighty creator, creation and to within causes one to receive the blessings and recovery of loss. Remember the one within and you cannot say or identify where the blessings flow from and in likelihood these flow from the closest point and that is within. This is the essence of being one with the creator and living in consonance with creation..

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Ishna ji your posts are very commendable. May you have a wonderful life filled with health, happiness and prosperity.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Veer ji With no contention and all due respect and with your permission may I try to respond to your post .
about the "so called" five elements of human behavior or activity. Is it like Robin Hood that same can appear as good to some and bad to others Of course it can as in the following, We are a duality based animal. Have you ever talked to yourself with or without the thieves being in presence? I would love to meet someone who has not. So “so called” thieves are a constructs in moral fabric of humans which culturally and socially we have developed over time.I understand this view about ‘human morality’ but it does not apply to my question As the question is essentially why do we commit vice instead of practice virtue. So called thieves are just some metrics that come into play in defining acceptable or un-acceptable attributes or actions. With extremes of imbalance to acceptable norms, one gets reactions from self and others in recognition of such extremes. Extreme conditions in the five can lead to mental disease, hermetic living, rape, murder, and many behaviors considered extremes by a given society. The extremes that trigger such responses do vary by groups geographically and anywhere collectively.The five are not good even in small measures, I think being little bit angry or little bit greedy are both outside the Gursikh norm which is to be Patient and Content.And little bit proud is not good at all.The “so called’ five thieves are not a disease. They are a learned behavior ultimately interacting with chemicals and other triggers in the being that we are. From a Sikhism perspective God/Creator has provided creation which we are part of. Whether “so called” thieves are by birth inherent in life, I do not know. As genetics digs further it perhaps will be better understood.We do not have a predisposition to be any of the five nor are they learned behaviours, Mankind has the propensity to be controlled by these passions/thieves or we control them .We can learn how to behave by controlling them ,which is a consequence.<?"urn:<img src=" />
God/Creator at a personal level is not engaged with us but trusts us. We have a path of existence with rest of creation or a path of non-existence. These are long term phenomenon and unknown to me.
He is personally engaged, because he engaged our person .Depending on the answer to whether such are intrinsic or extrinsic will determine a complete answer to such. Human definition as we do not how same are treated in other life forms. These are defined as deviations from acceptable norms in society. A Lion does not care if two people are Gay, Lesbian, are diseased or dumb as a door knob. Society may have opinions.
My question is why is this man-lions sense stolen by lust, anger, greed, attachment or pride which then causes him to act immorally.I did not compare the social norms of today or why we regard intellect as being essential or are those values correct.We don’t discriminate on social issues because we are angry ,greedy or proud.

Brother in Arms
 
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Ambarsaria

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Sinner ji I am going to take a bit of time off from this thread as I for sure want to read more than I write. Some comments and then I go quiet (I think unless I am tempted back by a thief in disguise!),

<font color="black"><font face="Times New Roman"><!--?"urn:
<font 0"="" alt="" face=" border="><font size="2">
</p><font 0"="" border="0" alt=""><font color="black"><font face="border="><font size="2"><font color="black"><font size="3">There is no one 100% virtuous and no one 100% lost to so called five thieves. It is a matter of degree. So everyone practices vice and virtue. Based on how they want to be living, they do more of one versus the other. It is a choice brother, no one wants to admit it so as it is more fashionable to bundle them and then say through study some how I will put all in jail. Just a bit of self conceit and deferring hard decisions.





<font size="3"><font size="2"><font color="navy">The five are not good even in small measures,<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"> I think being normally angry, normally greedy are both outside the Gursikh norm which is to be Patient and Content.
<font size="3"><font size="2"><font color="navy"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font size="3">Sinner ji this is absolutely wrong conclusion. Life forces, the chemicals within us, the hormones, the adrenalin, and so forth are continuously changing and we can not claim that all these are bad. If these were then we should be dead sooner than later. What do you get when you have a happy-happy feeling, a goody-goody rush. Don't tell me that has no positive impact on your physicals. The reason or rationale once the transitory events happen in our body chemicals are of little consequence 99.99% of the time


Jab dilse dil takrata hai - YouTube

<font size="3"><font color="navy"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy">We do not have a predisposition to be any of the five nor are they learned behaviours, Mankind has the propensity to be controlled by these passions/thieves or we control them .We can learn how to behave by controlling them ,which is a consequence<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font color="black"><font face="Times New Roman">.
<font size="3"><font color="navy"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font color="black"><font face="Times New Roman">So dear Sinner ji are you saying the young boys seeing every passing girl with "lust", etc., have no pre-disposition or learning related to it. If so I may be wrong winkingmunda.



<font size="3"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy">He is personally engaged, as he engaged our person <font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font color="black"><font face="Times New Roman">.
<font size="3"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font color="black"><font face="Times New Roman">Please explain, I don't understand.
<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">
<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">
<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">My question is why is this man-lions sense stolen by lust, anger, greed, attachment or pride which then causes him to act immorally.<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">
<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font size="3">I did not compare the social norms of today or why do we regard intellect as being essential and are those values correct.<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font size="3"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">We don’t discriminate on social issues because we are angry ,greedy or proud
<font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="navy"><font size="3"><font color="red"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font color="navy">Not having 100% control over so called five thieves does not make some one "immoral". I believe I flagged search for "perfection" (in one of your posts) as a non human endeavor. It is fraught with the trappings of the so called thieves more than any other approach. Practical living with as much good is Sikhism.


Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Scarlet Pimpernel

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<TABLE width="84%"><TBODY><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਰਚੰਡੁ
गिआन खंड महि गिआनु परचंडु ॥
Gi▫ān kẖand mėh gi▫ān parcẖand.
In the realm of wisdom, spiritual wisdom reigns supreme.
ਤਿਥੈ ਨਾਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕੋਡ ਅਨੰਦੁ
तिथै नाद बिनोद कोड अनंदु ॥
Ŧithai nāḏ binoḏ kod anand.
The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there, amidst the sounds and the sights of bliss.
ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰੂਪੁ
सरम खंड की बाणी रूपु ॥
Saram kẖand kī baṇī rūp.
In the realm of humility, the Word is Beauty.
ਤਿਥੈ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ
तिथै घाड़ति घड़ीऐ बहुतु अनूपु ॥
Ŧithai gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ai bahuṯ anūp.
Forms of incomparable beauty are fashioned there.
ਤਾ ਕੀਆ ਗਲਾ ਕਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਹਿ
ता कीआ गला कथीआ ना जाहि ॥
Ŧā kī▫ā galā kathī▫ā nā jāhi.
These things cannot be described.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ
जे को कहै पिछै पछुताइ ॥
Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
One who tries to speak of these shall regret the attempt.
ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरति मति मनि बुधि ॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ.
The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there.
ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरा सिधा की सुधि ॥३६॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||
The consciousness of the spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection, are shaped there. ||36||



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Ishna

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The Bhai Manmohan Singh translation doesn't mention perfection in this part of Japji Sahib:

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਗਿਆਨ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਰਚੰਡੁ
गिआन खंड महि गिआनु परचंडु ॥
Gi▫ān kẖand mėh gi▫ān parcẖand.
In the domain of knowledge Divine deliberation is greatly resplendent.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਥੈ ਨਾਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕੋਡ ਅਨੰਦੁ
तिथै नाद बिनोद कोड अनंदु ॥
Ŧithai nāḏ binoḏ kod anand.
Celestial strain resounds there from whom myriads of amusements and joys proceed.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰੂਪੁ
सरम खंड की बाणी रूपु ॥
Saram kẖand kī baṇī rūp.
Beauty is the language of the realm of spiritual effort.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਥੈ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ
तिथै घाड़ति घड़ीऐ बहुतु अनूपु ॥
Ŧithai gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ai bahuṯ anūp.
There, an extremely incomparable make, is made.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਾ ਕੀਆ ਗਲਾ ਕਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਹਿ
ता कीआ गला कथीआ ना जाहि ॥
Ŧā kī▫ā galā kathī▫ā nā jāhi.
The proceedings of that place can not be described.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ
जे को कहै पिछै पछुताइ ॥
Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e.
If any one endeavors to describe, he shall afterwards repent.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरति मति मनि बुधि ॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ.
There inner consciousness, intellect, soul and understand are moulded afresh.

</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरा सिधा की सुधि ॥३६॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||
There the genius of the pious persons and men of miracles is moulded a new.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The keyword I believe is Sidha which Dr. Khalsa has translated as the beings of spiritual perfection

We would need to study what a Sidha is exactly, I think, to find out if it is a state of perfection. That is way out of my league!
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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Perfection is the only true goal of human endeavour .Brahm Giani ,Saint ,Bhagat is not imperfect in a Spiritual sense .
Forgive my boldness,but we are all human and it's a hard task for anyone to begin to describe a 'state of being' with any clarity,especially when that 'state of being' may personally still allude them and consequently then translating it properly requires a belief in the underlying concept, if it is not there ,a translation can be innocently skewed by personal preference when the translator has to choose which words/ phrases should be used.
Today we have an example before us ,just look at the vast difference between those we call by the name man.A superbly innovative ,exceptional talent ,visionary, tech spiritual leader ,is still called a man , the one lead by his Self a repeat rapist in Jail ,is also still called Man.How can they both be called Man, one fulfilled his potential and changed the World , the other just lost himSelf in the World
 

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Shabad Vichaar by SPN'ers

Thaal Vich Tin Vastu Payeo ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿੰਨਿ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ


Karminder Singh Dhillon, PhD.


This shabd of Guru Arjun is found on page 1429 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS)...

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