What Actually Are These Panch Shabad?

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

dear members
please can all members give their oppinions on the meaning of this 5 shabad? are this the shabads that we should earn it thru meditation? please give your respected oppinion on it. there are many verses in sri granth related to 5 shabad.. but i had listed only 2 here below.. thanks




Page 1057, Line 19
ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਮਿਲਿ ਵਾਜਾ ਵਾਇਆ ॥
पंच सबद मिलि वाजा वाइआ ॥
Pancẖ sabaḏ mil vājā vā▫i▫ā.
The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, vibrate and resonate.
Guru Amar Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ge 1291, Line 1
ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਧੁਨਿਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਤਹ ਬਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
पंच सबद धुनिकार धुनि तह बाजै सबदु नीसाणु ॥
Pancẖ sabaḏ ḏẖunikār ḏẖun ṯah bājai sabaḏ nīsāṇ.
The Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, resonate and resound within; the insignia of the Shabad is revealed there, vibrating gloriously.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Luckysingh]

Panch shabad depends on how you translate 'panch' because it can mean 'five' or it can mean 'superior'.

Most commonly panch shabad refers to the 5 primordial sounds- the anhad shabad or celestial sounds.
Some claim (akj and radhasoami) that these correspond to the divine sounds you can hear when dasam duar is open. They reference these sounds to bells, flutes..etc... and also intertwine them with attaining naam!

I gather from the topics you pick that you have been looking at radhasoami material!!

I am not denying the existence of these anhad sounds or melodies and neither am I denying the dasam duar. BUT I think the panch shabad means more than that.
I don't think that it means you attain naam once you start to hear the 5 celestial sounds within.

First there was just God in the void and nothing else.
Then after came the 5 sounds, or 5 existencies or 5 vibrations and these were involved in creating creation.

Personally, I believe that the 5 sounds or vibrations correspond to the 5 elements.
Because first was God and then the 5 elements which are Air,Water, Fire, Earth and Akash(or space- beyond our atmosphere),.
These then helped form the planet and universe.

We can say that the 5 sounds correspond to the 5 vibrations from creation, as God was the original and ONE vibration that eminated the 5 different vibrations.


In raag mala on the last page, which explains the raags and their formation in the Guru Granth sahibji, at the beginning it starts with something like

-''There is ONE raag and it has 5 wives''
This corresponds to what I explained above that there was ONE God and then came the Panch Shabad/ 5 sounds/5 vibrations/5 elements/5 existences.....
We could say that the 5 sounds come from the 5 elements.

Panch shabad does not directly mean 5 elements, but you can see how it refers to the vibrations from creation.

This is what I personally make of the panch shabad. I'm not sure if everyone follows the same!

 

[spnadmin]

Luckysingh ji

Thank you for confirming my intuitions with some of your own. I also appreciate your stick-to-it-ive-ness on this issues

I gather from the topics you pick that you have been looking at radhasoami material!!

My questions to the OP regarding "earning naams" and the "gunas" have yet to be answered by harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji. If this thread goes off into the Sant Mat direction that I have discerned on other threads, deletions will be automatic. Thank you, spnadmin

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

Panch shabad depends on how you translate 'panch' because it can mean 'five' or it can mean 'superior'.

Most commonly panch shabad refers to the 5 primordial sounds- the anhad shabad or celestial sounds.
Some claim (akj and radhasoami) that these correspond to the divine sounds you can hear when dasam duar is open. They reference these sounds to bells, flutes..etc... and also intertwine them with attaining naam!

I gather from the topics you pick that you have been looking at radhasoami material!!

I am not denying the existence of these anhad sounds or melodies and neither am I denying the dasam duar. BUT I think the panch shabad means more than that.
I don't think that it means you attain naam once you start to hear the 5 celestial sounds within.

First there was just God in the void and nothing else.
Then after came the 5 sounds, or 5 existencies or 5 vibrations and these were involved in creating creation.

Personally, I believe that the 5 sounds or vibrations correspond to the 5 elements.
Because first was God and then the 5 elements which are Air,Water, Fire, Earth and Akash(or space- beyond our atmosphere),.
These then helped form the planet and universe.

We can say that the 5 sounds correspond to the 5 vibrations from creation, as God was the original and ONE vibration that eminated the 5 different vibrations.


In raag mala on the last page, which explains the raags and their formation in the Guru Granth sahibji, at the beginning it starts with something like

-''There is ONE raag and it has 5 wives''
This corresponds to what I explained above that there was ONE God and then came the Panch Shabad/ 5 sounds/5 vibrations/5 elements/5 existences.....
We could say that the 5 sounds come from the 5 elements.

Panch shabad does not directly mean 5 elements, but you can see how it refers to the vibrations from creation.

This is what I personally make of the panch shabad. I'm not sure if everyone follows the same!

Thanks for giving your oppinion, but is Shabad and NAAM the same thing, or they are different?

http://www.onlyonegod.ca/Expansion.html

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

Luckysingh ji

Thank you for confirming my intuitions with some of your own. I also appreciate your stick-to-it-ive-ness on this issues

My questions to the OP regarding "earning naams" and the "gunas" have yet to be answered by harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji. If this thread goes off into the Sant Mat direction that I have discerned on other threads, deletions will be automatic. Thank you, spnadmin

discussion is going on here base on the above verses which i had taken it from sri granth. why out of a sudden sant mat is coming into the picture.. earning naams if not mistaken i had already replied. thanks

 

[spnadmin]

Harcharanjitsinghdhillonji

You did not reply about earning naams, which is a contradiction in terms. Not that I saw anyway. The sant mat comes up because it is not based in Shabad Guru, or so things were in other threads, and we are not going to repeat the pattern on this thread.

Anyway, my warning above holds and will be followed up. All have fair warning. If not deletions, then material will be moved out of Sikh Sikhi Sikhism. Thank you.

 

[Luckysingh]

It may appear that 'why is the term panch shabad or 5 sounds echoing keep being mentioned instead of 5 elements forming or creating?

Well an important point to note is that
- These 'panch shabad' do exist in yoga terms and were probably invented by them, but the radhasaomis of today have adapted these yoga teachings to align them with sikh philosophy or their own interpretations.

- In Gurbani the mention of yogis 5 melodies are mentioned in relation to their beliefs,which again is important to look at the whole shabad in context.

Because, more importantly Gurmat denies that sounds are limited to 5 shabads.
As gurbani states '' Vajay shabad ganaray'' which means that ''countless shabads or melodies echo'' and NOT just 5.

In simple terms, gurbani says ''yes, the yogi may feel or hear the 5 different sounds , but the gurmukh will feel countless shabads and sounds''
But mostly the reference is to panch meaning superior or greatest shabads.

I find that if we bear all these explanations in mind when you come across a certain shabad with this particular mention, then you will begin to get the message much more clearly.

NOTE- there are also many hippy and psychedilic rock bands that mention the sounds of bells and drums..etc... in their songs like kulashaker. This is all to do with the meditative yoga mind whilst being in harmony...etc...
This is why you shouldn't confuse yoga style meditation with Naam simran, because Naam simran has the focus and dhian on nothing else but the Akaal purakh.- the only similarity is sitting with your eyes closed!!!

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

It may appear that 'why is the term panch shabad or 5 sounds echoing keep being mentioned instead of 5 elements forming or creating?

Well an important point to note is that
- These 'panch shabad' do exist in yoga terms and were probably invented by them, but the radhasaomis of today have adapted these yoga teachings to align them with sikh philosophy or their own interpretations.

- In Gurbani the mention of yogis 5 melodies are mentioned in relation to their beliefs,which again is important to look at the whole shabad in context.

Because, more importantly Gurmat denies that sounds are limited to 5 shabads.
As gurbani states '' Vajay shabad ganaray'' which means that ''countless shabads or melodies echo'' and NOT just 5.

In simple terms, gurbani says ''yes, the yogi may feel or hear the 5 different sounds , but the gurmukh will feel countless shabads and sounds''
But mostly the reference is to panch meaning superior or greatest shabads.

I find that if we bear all these explanations in mind when you come across a certain shabad with this particular mention, then you will begin to get the message much more clearly.

NOTE- there are also many hippy and psychedilic rock bands that mention the sounds of bells and drums..etc... in their songs like kulashaker. This is all to do with the meditative yoga mind whilst being in harmony...etc...
This is why you shouldn't confuse yoga style meditation with Naam simran, because Naam simran has the focus and dhian on nothing else but the Akaal purakh.- the only similarity is sitting with your eyes closed!!!

for example in our sikh scriptures it is mention about 3 gunas.. but explaination of what is raj, tam and sat gunas is not mention fully in our scriptures so for this we have to go elsewhere to find the answer, sometimes we have to visit some hinduism sites to get the answer.. same thing goes for panch shabd, full explaination is not mention in our scriptures. so for a searching research mind we can go else where to find the answer, i think nothing wrong with it.. you need a ladder to reach akal purakh, your consciousness must travel from grosser to subtle regions.. you must take a journey.. many are thinking mukti is very simple, no it is very very difficult. to me 5 shabd mentioned are the vital ones that pulls the consciousness inwards and upwards to the 10th gate.. 5 shabd is not the whole of god, just a part of it.. it is sargun the immanent part of god that came in contact with matter and created vibrations.. we are choosing the shabds that can dismantle our ego.. we are not picking up shabds that are reassembling or preserving our ego. this vital 5 shabds are coming from right side, and are very uplifting. we still have to go much higher to realise the nirgun part of god or the unmanifested one.. once we realise this in our meditation then automatic mukti is already earn also.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Lucky Singh ji
"Vajay shabad ganaray" does not contradict "vajey panch shabad"
Ghanaray means many, and may simply be referring to five. So the only way to know is to see for yourself how many there are. In your experience, have you felt more than 5?

you shouldn't confuse yoga style meditation with Naam simran, because Naam simran has the focus and dhian on nothing else but the Akaal purakh

As far as I know the Yoga school of thought is open to both theists and non-theists. It simply teaches on developing dhian. Patanjali's Yoga text teaches one to develop dhian in the repetition of the syllable 'Om', God's voice (which is not too far from naam simran).1 but proponents of yoga say you can focus on anything.2
Yoga is more like a broad label for techniques to obtain yoga (union). Naam simran is one such technique, which fits into a category of yoga, known as Bhagati yoga ie. yoga through immense love, service and remembrance of the beloved (aka simran).

What they all have in common is focus/dhyan and more dhyan and more... The more concentrated the dhyan the better. When it reaches its heights, it is known as samadhi.

I have not experienced any bells or sounds so I have little to add in that regard. But recently I have experienced what I suspect are active chakras and dasam duar from plain old naam simran similar to how Kabir describes them in his bani. But that's not the topic here.

Use of psychedelic drugs is a different matter. It has little in common with yoga and techniques like naam simran. Use of psychedlic drugs is like taking your photo into photoshop and taking your face and putting it on a bodybuilder and enjoying that. Practicing yoga is like working out into a gym so you end up developing big muscles!!

References
1. Patanjali's Yoga Sutra 2 Translations.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/ysp/index.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm

2. Swami Vivekanand's Raja Yoga
http://www.shardsofconsciousness.co...ess.com/files/ebooks/RajaYoga_Vivekananda.pdf

 

[spnadmin]

Thread moved to Interfaith Dialogs so that discussion of psychic/spiritual content is more appropriately situated outside of Sikhism areas.