Festivals Vaisakhi Greetings !

[Archived_Member16]

With the Divine Love & Blessings of WAHEGURU JI, may you all always enjoy: peace, love, light (enlightenment), health, happiness & prosperity in life !

Harbhajan Singh Sangha

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I PREFER CALLING THIS......KHALSA DAY !!! AS THAT IS MORE MEANINGFUL AND WHY THE DAY IS CELEBRATED.

SO HAPPY KHALSA DAY TO ALL...MAY GURU JI BLESS US ALL:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::welcome:

 

[spnadmin]

Thank you Soul Jyot.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Irrespective of what we call this day Vaisakhi day or Khalsa day, its importance has to be borne in the minds all 25 million Sikhs and counting.

Guru Gobind Singh ji gave the final touch to the character of a Sikh. He did not give us the 5 kakaars on this day as a show off but he demostrated to us through examples by showing us how he lived his own life so that we could etch the meanings of these 5 Kakaars on our psyche,for these not to become mere symbols of our outer wear but the true weapons to fight the 5 thieves that dwell within each of us.

So, everyone, Happy Momentous day, no matter what or how you name it.

Tejwant Singh

 

[dalsingh]

A day late I know, but I couldn't get access to the internet yesterday!

HAPPY VASAKHI to all my brothers and sisters. Yesterday I went to two Gurdwaras around my new digs. I had been to both before but many years ago. I went to Roseberry Road Gurdwara which was lovely. I also went to the Ramgarhia Gurdwara in Manor Park. I hadn't been to this one since I was a very young lad. I must say I was completely blown away by the new building, they have done a really good job here. All Gurdwaras are beautiful for what they represent, but this one was especially nice in terms of the interior design and architecture. Was very different to how it used to be when we occasionally visited as kids.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Happy Post Vaisakhi as well Post Khalsa Day to all.

I think the money spent on Gurudwara buildings is better spent on other more important things like improving what goes on INSIDE the gurughar.

 

[dalsingh]

Happy Post Vaisakhi as well Post Khalsa Day to all.

I think the money spent on Gurudwara buildings is better spent on other more important things like improving what goes on INSIDE the gurughar.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I know some people (including me) have been saying this for years. Sadly little seems to have changed. In the UK if the Gurdwara has a gym, Panjabi classes, music classes and Powerpoint slides translating bani as it is being sung. It is top draw.

There is still lots more that could be done to draw youth in but I think conservatism prevents this happening.

Regarding post Khalsa day. In the UK, the celebrations normally spread themselves over the month, so for instance, the main program for Vasakhi in the local Gurdwara here will take place on the 28th of this month. I imagine this weekend will see most families formally celebrating by attending the Gurdwara. Things sort of happen at weekends here - hows about Canada? I heard they are really doing a good job in teaching the youth Panjabi there and that most youths can speak it fluently. Is this true?

How do they manage this?

 

[BhagatSingh]

I haven't been to Gurudwaras in ages but I am planning to get connected again this summer. but speaking from past experience, it happens. Parades, crowded Gurughars? yep that's Khalsa Day alright.
I can't say about the rest of Canada but where I live, there are Punjabi classes in Gurughars and in regular schools.
Can the youth speak it fluently? This is subjective. I believe even the teachers speak broken Punjabi! They cannot differentiate the G with G. and Sh with Chh, etc either! If you know what I mean...

 

[dalsingh]

I haven't been to Gurudwaras in ages but I am planning to get connected again this summer. but speaking from past experience, it happens. Parades, crowded Gurughars? yep that's Khalsa Day alright.
I can't say about the rest of Canada but where I live, there are Punjabi classes in Gurughars and in regular schools.
Can the youth speak it fluently? This is subjective. I believe even the teachers speak broken Punjabi! They cannot differentiate the G with G. and Sh with Chh, etc either! If you know what I mean...

If I'm getting you right, I think your talking about some of the sounds corresponding to the last "new" line in the Gurmukhi alphabet (the ones with a dot). These came in quite recently (around the time of Dasmesh Pita), to cover Persian based words which were used by the ruling classes.

So maybe it is no surprised that the average pindu Panjabi may still struggle with them. lol

But it is remarkable that indigenous Panjabi did not have the ssh sond (as in sharaab) or the gutteral khh. I note that over time the Persian words themselves become "Panjabised" like the word "khyaal", when I hear Muslim Panjabis use it they still use the gutteral "khhhh" sound. Panjabis have softened it to kyaal.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I haven't been to Gurudwaras in ages but I am planning to get connected again this summer. but speaking from past experience, it happens. Parades, crowded Gurughars? yep that's Khalsa Day alright.
I can't say about the rest of Canada but where I live, there are Punjabi classes in Gurughars and in regular schools.
Can the youth speak it fluently? This is subjective. I believe even the teachers speak broken Punjabi! They cannot differentiate the G with G. and Sh with Chh, etc either! If you know what I mean...

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Do you live in or near Surrey, BC? I have heard the Khalsa School there is one of the top schools in BC as far as the normal BC schools' ranking is concerned plus they teach Punjabi and Gurbani.

Tejwant Singh

 

[BhagatSingh]

No Tejwant Singh ji, I don't live in BC. I have adopted a position on faith schools after listening to what Richard Dawkins said in that video "The Big Debate" but as I recall, the Sikh dude in there does point out that even though he agrees with Dawkins, he realizes that Dawkins is speaking only about Abrahamic faiths and not Sikhism, which is more open. So that begs the question should we, as Sikhs, really have "full time" Khalsa schools?
Anyway, its a good thing that Punjabi and Gurbani are being taught, I just think they should be left for the weekend or summer.


To Dal Singh ji,

If I'm getting you right, I think your talking about some of the sounds corresponding to the last "new" line in the Gurmukhi alphabet (the ones with a dot). These came in quite recently (around the time of Dasmesh Pita), to cover Persian based words which were used by the ruling classes.

I think its kind of like the vava or the wawa. I think we need a dotted letter to separate those two sounds as well. I think soft kh and the up front 'KH' were both used like you said so one of the sounds had to be dotted. I think 'KH' is the dotted one.

So maybe it is no surprised that the average pindu Panjabi may still struggle with them. lol

But it is remarkable that indigenous Panjabi did not have the ssh sond (as in sharaab) or the gutteral khh. I note that over time the Persian words themselves become "Panjabised" like the word "khyaal", when I hear Muslim Panjabis use it they still use the gutteral "khhhh" sound. Panjabis have softened it to kyaal.

I though that "indigenous Panjabi" did not have the 'Chh' sound and that they used 'Shh' instead.
As in Vand ke Shakna as opposed to Vand ke Chhakna.

OH and what about soft 'gh' vs stessed and emphasized 'GH'???
I think this requires a new topic and I think the Gurmukhi script needs a reform to include all these sounds. And this script and sounds need to be made clear to every school.

 

[dalsingh]

No Tejwant Singh ji, I don't live in BC. I have adopted a position on faith schools after listening to what Richard Dawkins said in that video "The Big Debate" but as I recall, the Sikh dude in there does point out that even though he agrees with Dawkins, he realizes that Dawkins is speaking only about Abrahamic faiths and not Sikhism, which is more open. So that begs the question should we, as Sikhs, really have "full time" Khalsa schools?
Anyway, its a good thing that Punjabi and Gurbani are being taught, I just think they should be left for the weekend or summer.

I know you addressed this to Tejwant but allow me my 2 rupees worth of contribution.

I think full time Khalsa schools are a really good idea. The notion that ones faith and culture can be taught on the weekends has been proved wrong in the UK where they tried that. The consequences are masses of youth who are largely unaware of their faith and culture. Something so important should permeate the life of a youngster.

Also, I don't know what the record is in Canada but in the UK, faith schools outperform secular ones by miles, especially Roman Catholic ones. There is a Khalsa school in London/Essex and it too does extremely well compared to the national average.

GGSKCollege

To Dal Singh ji,

I think its kind of like the vava or the wawa. I think we need a dotted letter to separate those two sounds as well. I think soft kh and the up front 'KH' were both used like you said so one of the sounds had to be dotted. I think 'KH' is the dotted one.

My point was the dotted one was introduced later to cover Persian words. For instance Khalsa, Khubsoorat, khyaal etc.

You can pretty much bet that if a word we use has a dot in it, its roots lie outside of the Panjab.

I though that "indigenous Panjabi" did not have the 'Chh' sound and that they used 'Shh' instead.
As in Vand ke Shakna as opposed to Vand ke Chhakna.

It does have two variations of the sound represented by the first two letters of teh third line of Painti. You know, Chucha - Chumcha (spoon), Chhacha - Chhuttri (umbrella). Panjabi did not use the "shhhh" sound until the sassa paer bindi came in to represent it. Again, this is a Persian vowel. Think of some words that clearly use the shhh sound and odds are they wil have Persian (or Arabic) antecedents i.e. shaitaan, sharaab, sharia.

OH and what about soft 'gh' vs stessed and emphasized 'GH'???
I think this requires a new topic and I think the Gurmukhi script needs a reform to include all these sounds. And this script and sounds need to be made clear to every school.

This will be majorly problematic. The script has become sacrosanct due to its relationship with the Gurus and Gurbani.

I think the V and W issue is probably the most difficult hurdle. But I notice lately people have introduced a L with a dot so I can't see why we can't add a letter to distinguish between V and W. A better idea would be to introduce compulsary English and Panjabi learningfrom a young age in the Panjab.

 

[BhagatSingh]

You can pretty much bet that if a word we use has a dot in it, its roots lie outside of the Panjab.

I thought it was the other way. I thought that words without dots had that soft persian sound. I am getting confused.

It does have two variations of the sound represented by the first two letters of teh third line of Painti. You know, Chucha - Chumcha (spoon), Chhacha - Chhuttri (umbrella). Panjabi did not use the "shhhh" sound until the sassa paer bindi came in to represent it. Again, this is a Persian vowel. Think of some words that clearly use the shhh sound and odds are they wil have Persian (or Arabic) antecedents i.e. shaitaan, sharaab, sharia.

See, I think they did, and thats because the "chhachha" of punjabi in pinds, is pronounced "shasha". The sassa with dot (sha) is almost meaningless to them.

My pendu teacher was like why did they introduce letters with dots, they don't add any sounds and are meaningless. This shows he cannot recognise the sounds and therefore is not teaching pure or rather "more correct" Punjabi.

A better idea would be to introduce compulsary English and Panjabi learningfrom a young age in the Panjab.

yes, thats a good idea. Also can I say we need to improve the "quality" of Punjabi that is taught?

 

[dalsingh]

I thought it was the other way. I thought that words without dots had that soft persian sound. I am getting confused.


See, I think they did, and thats because the "chhachha" of punjabi in pinds, is pronounced "shasha". The sassa with dot (sha) is almost meaningless to them.

My pendu teacher was like why did they introduce letters with dots, they don't add any sounds and are meaningless. This shows he cannot recognise the sounds and therefore is not teaching pure or rather "more correct" Punjabi.

Remember, the Gurmukhi alphabet is called painti i.e 35. The extra five with the dots are the foreign ones.

yes, thats a good idea. Also can I say we need to improve the "quality" of Punjabi that is taught?

[/quote]

I think a lot of good work has been done by the university in Patiala. I had two good dictionaries from them (Panj to Eng and Eng to Panj).

I think complexity/variation makes the language/culture richer. Seeing as the majority of Sikhs live rural lives they are not really going to be interested in developing their literacy to high "sophisticated" standards anyway. We have differences betweendialect and region like any other community.

Besides trying to do anything systematically is always difficult with Panjabis...lol


PS- Stop upsetting people dude!

 

[BhagatSingh]

About the gurmukhi alphabet... I get that but you said something which was different than my understanding of the pronunciation of letters. i was trying to clear that up but I think that's impossible on a forum. haha so I am just going to drop that topic.

PS- Stop upsetting people dude!

I can't help it.
I feel I am in the same position as them. notice how the guy right in the begining feels...

Video deleted: Irrelevant to the thread, aad0002

 

[spnadmin]

Dalsingh ji: "P/S Stop upsetting people dude" -- dalsingh ji was engaging in light banter there.

BhagatSingh ji " I can't help it " -- Yes you can. What is the purpose of the video about atheism on a thread about Vaisakhi? That both you and the main speaker cannot stop getting into arguments about religion?

Video deleted. Please return to the discussion regarding the Punjabi language that was triggered by the Vaisakhi greeting card. Antonia

 

[BhagatSingh]

Aad ji I edited my post. Watch it and notice what the guys are talking about.

Anyway, this has been more of a general conversation between DalSingh ji and I.

That is fine. The discussion with dalsing about Punjabi works. Dalsingh ji has the wisdom of a sage. aad0002

 

[dalsingh]

Bhagat, the clip you posted. I saw the complete documentary here in the UK. It did nothing to convince me of its arguments and I consider myself open minded.

If you are Sikh, then you must at least have a belief and some faith in God.

Stop this nonsense now young man! lol​

 

[dalsingh]

That is fine. The discussion with dalsing about Punjabi works. Dalsingh ji has the wisdom of a sage. aad0002

Now I feel about a thousand years old.........Sikh yoda....

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat, the clip you posted. I saw the complete documentary here in the UK. It did nothing to convince me of its arguments and I consider myself open minded.​

If you are Sikh, then you must at least have a belief and some faith in God.​

Stop this nonsense now young man! lol​

You missed the point of it if that's your response to why I had showed it to you in the first place.

That both you and the main speaker cannot stop getting into arguments about religion?

He says that he is labelled rude and arrogant whenever he criticizes religion. Sound like anyone you know on the forum? He then asks why has religion been given such an immunity towards criticism. (that people think its insensitive to criticize it)