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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Vaheguru As A Mantar/name Of God?
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<blockquote data-quote="Gyani Jarnail Singh" data-source="post: 213970" data-attributes="member: 189"><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Vaheguru as a Mantar/Name of God? </strong><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">947 shabads /5600 verses by Guru Nanak but NO ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">63 shabads /250 verses by Guru Angad but NO ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">869 shabads /5100 verses by Guru Amar Das but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">638 shabads /3800 verses by Guru Ram Das but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2313 shabads /13900 verses by Guru Arjun but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">115 shabads /690 verses by Guru Teg Bahadur but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">788 shabads /4000 verses by the 16 Bhagats but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11 shabads /100 verses by 3 other Sikhs but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5714 shabads /30000 TOTAL verses by Gurus, Bhagats and Sikhs but NO word ‘Vaheguru’</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>SGGS Principles Re: God’s Name </strong><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">He has No proper name</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">His names are given by His children (Bhagats)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ALL His names are ‘<em>Kirtam</em>’ – descriptions of His perceived</li> </ul></li> </ul><p></p><p>Virtues (adjectives – Giver, Helper, Kind, Benevolent, Powerful etc)</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">So ALL such perceived virtues are acceptable</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">One virtue cannot be superior to the other<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ SGGS 1083</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kirtam Naam Kathye Tere Jehba, Sat Nam Tera Pra Poorbla</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>Kirtam means virtues and His PRIMARY virtue (Pra Poorbla) within Gurbani is ਸਤਿ Sat from Sanskrit ‘satya’ (<strong>permanently in existence)</strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">SGGS thus begins with a Salok as the <strong>preamble</strong><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ek Oangkar Sat Naam Karta Purakh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Moorat Ajooni Saibhang Gur Parsad.</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>The debate of His ‘one’name is futile and hence rejected as WE humans created all His names! ALL names are acceptable in SGGS –</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Puratan tradition – <em>Har, Ram</em> …..</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Muslim tradition – <em>Allah, Rahim</em> ….</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Puratan tradition – <em>Alakh, Niranjan</em>….</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Puratan tradition – <em>Beethal, Raiya</em> ….</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From Personal tradition – <em>Pita, Mata</em>….</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Example of a shabad by Bhagat Namdev (SGGS 727)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਮੈ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਕੀ ਟੇਕ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁੰਦਕਾਰਾ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mein Andhley Kee Tek Tera Nam Khundkara ||</li> </ul></li> </ul><p></p><p>Where many descriptive names are used – <em>Khundkara, Adhara, Kareema, Raheema, Allah, Ganee, Hazra Hazoor, Dana Beena, Suami Bakhshand, Hari</em></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Meaning of word Vaheguru in Bhattan dey Swayeay SGGS 1402<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vahe jio is used in praise of Guru Arjun</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The word Vaheguru is combination of two words (Vah is Persian and Guru is Sanskrit)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vah is an exclamation that is an involuntary utterance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A voluntary utterance is pretensious/fake.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A forced utterance is Ritualistic</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shabad by Bhatts in praise of Guru Arjun SGGS 1403<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Satguru</em> Satguru Satguru Gobind jio</li> </ul></li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Sri Guru</em> Sri Guru Sri Guru Sat jio</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Name of God not as Satguru or Sri Guru – why only ‘Vaheguru’ has been selected and by whom?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What word did the Bhatts use for God’s name in SGGS/Bhatt Dey Swayeay? (SGGS 1404 – same words as Guru Nanak)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਅਗਮੁ ਅਨੰਤੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Agum Anant Anad Aad</em> Jis Koe na Janey</li> </ul></li> </ul> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਸਰ ਕੋਈ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Nirangkar Nirvair</em> Avan Nahi Dusar Koe</li> </ul> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਚਿਤਹ ਬਸੈ ॥੧॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Sri Sat Nam Karta Purakh</em> Gur Ramdas Chithey Basey</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conclusions regarding Vaheguru, Satguru, Sriguru in Bhattan Dey Swayeay</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bhatts had come from South India and they stayed with Guru Arjun for a couple of years before they penned their praise in Swayeays (refer Bhai Gurdas)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Words are used to call out/refer to Guruji</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Used to express Greatness, Magnificience, Awe, Amazement of Guruji</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The metaphors used are from their (Bhatts) existing canvas (Vedic)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What is the logic of repeated chanting of ‘Vaheguru’<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">To repeatedly call out Guruji or repeatedly express Greatness, Magnificience, Awe, Amazement – on what grounds? To flatter or please the Guru?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vah Vah Vah as just for the sake of repeating Vah/ Jup as chanting is meaningless and forced without knowing the virtues of the Guru</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enlightened Vah after understanding /Jup as realising – (Nanak Gya Japey Jaye). Bhatts were mesmerised AFTER knowing the Guru’s virtues so their utterances are meaningful and spontaneous. They couldn’t help but say Vah at the Guru’s Magnificience!</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vaheguru as Gurmantar Re: Bhai Gurdas 13-2<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ।</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vaheguru Gur Mantar Hai Jup Satsang Viloyee</li> </ul></li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magnificient Guru, You are My Mantar (here Mantar is used as in within Gurbani)</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Meaning of word Mantar in Gurbani Framework as opposed to Meaning outside of Gurbani</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in Gurbani it means Shabad/Bani/Guru/Message/ Advice/Primary Direction/Basics (as a guide to myself), NOT a continuum of Jantar, Mantar, Tantar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in Gurbani the objective is for internal/self change and NOT external change or effect</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in Gurbani the applicability is for understanding and applying and NOT repetive recital/chanting</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In Gurbani ‘Mantar’ is translated as spiritual advice/guidance/ direction – from Sanskrit word ‘Mantari’ meaning advice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">So if I accept the words Mool Mantar it would mean that the words are my primary root advice/spiritual guidance that I have to believe in and apply in my life</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If I accept the word Gurmantar it would mean that the Guru is my Mantar, my guide, who gives me my direction ……</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">And Vaheguru Mantar Hai means ‘Vah You are my Magnificent Guru/guide who has made me realise the true message’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Examples of ‘Mantar’ in SGGS<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ SGGS 576</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gur Mantar Shabd Sach Deeta Raam ||</li> </ul></li> </ul><p></p><p>Guru gave the shabad as mantar (spiritual guidance/message that creates enlightenment) that made me realise the true Creator within me</p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ SGGS 562</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sach Mantar Tumara Amrit Banee ||</li> </ul><p></p><p>The true mantar (spiritual guidance/message) is in the reading, understanding, internalising and applying of banee</p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ ॥ SGGS 864</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gur Key Shabd Mantar Mun Maan || a</li> </ul><p></p><p>Fully accept and obey the mantar (spiritual guidance) that is in the Guru’s Shabad (enlightenment)</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਬਾਣੀ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਹਿ ਉਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਂਨ ਕਉ ॥ SGGS 1208</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Banee Mantar Mha Purkhan Kee Maneh Utaran Maan Kao ||</li> </ul><p></p><p>Banee is the mantar (spiritual guidance to create enlightenment) of elevated and spiritually enlightened souls</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ SGGS 274</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beej Mantar Sarab Ko Gyaan ||</li> </ul><p></p><p>The seed, essence, root, of spiritual knowledge is in the mantar (spiritual guidance, banee, shabad, message)</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What is ਜਪੁ Jup? Does ਜਪੁ mean chant?<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bhai Gurdas 437</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Khand Khand Kahey Jehba Swad Metho Aivey Agun Agun Kajhey Seet Na Binas Hai</li> </ul></li> </ul><p></p><p>By repeating/chanting word ‘sugar sugar,’ the tongue cannot taste sweetness, and repeating ‘fire fire’ cannot get warmth in the cold, similarly repeating ‘doctor doctor’ cannot get better from sickness etc</p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bhai Gurdas 542</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Taisey Gyan Gosat Kahet Na Rahet Pavey Karnee Pardhan Bhan Udat Akas Hai</li> </ul><p></p><p>In Sikhi it is the realising/accepting/walking (Karnee Pardhan) NOT recitation …..</p><p></p><p>(Philosopher in Sanskrit is adarshanik from daras – philosophy/ message)</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bhatt SGGS 1410</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tatt Bichar Yahey Mathura Jug Taran Kao Avtar Banayeo.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Japeyo Jin Arjun Dev Guru Fir Sangkat Jon Garabh Na Aiyo.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Mathura Bhatt says the essence (tatt bichar) is that who realises /accepts (japeyo) Guru Arjun as guide/messenger/guru will not encounter (garab) any obstacles (jon) in his spiritual mindset (sangkat).</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conclusions<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Manglacharan and Mool Mantar are both man-made labels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gurus did NOT label the <strong>preamble</strong> as such</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Words ‘Mool, Mantar, Mool Mantar, Manglacharan’ are Not found in the preamble that is used 568 times in SGGS</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If we agree to refer to the <strong>preamble</strong> as ‘Mool Mantar’ it has to come from the application of the Gurbani Framework (Grammar-based and internal validity within Gurbani) and thus its meaning is the Shabad/Banee/Guru as the ‘primary/basic/root of all things –God.’</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Meaning of ਜਪੁ Jup in SGGS is<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Banee titled ਜਪੁ Jup</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Defined in 38 Pauris, 2 Saloks, 2600 words, 7 pages in a process of knowing and NOT Chanting</li> </ul></li> </ul></li> </ul><p>Listening (suneyeh in 4 Pauris) <em>not reading </em></p><p>Believing (maney in 4 Pauris) </p><p>Accepting (panch parwan panch pardhan )</p><p>Internalising (sodar keha so ghar keha)</p><p>Walking (Nanak geya japey jaye)</p><p>Living (last salok/ jini nam thiayaa)</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Jup/Jaap ਜਪੁ ਜਪਿ</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਨਾਨਕ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩੪॥ SGGS 7</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nanak Gayea Japey Jaye</li> </ul><p>Nanak has walked (gayea) this path (japey) now you do same (jaye)</p><p></p><p>ਨਾਮੁ Naam does NOT mean name but <strong>attributes, virtues /gunns</strong></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਵਿਸਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ SGGS 762</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਚਾਉ ਏਹੁ ॥੮॥੨॥੫॥੧੬॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Visar Nahi Dataar Aapna Naam Deh</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gun Gavan Din Raat Nanak Chao Eh</li> </ul><p>May I never forget (visar) Your virtues (naam). Give me a realisation/ understanding (gavan) of Your virtues (gunn)</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ SGGS 192</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Jup Munn Merey Gobind Kee Banee</li> </ul><p></p><p>O mind of mine, realise/understand the Banee</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧਿਆਇ ॥ SGGS 1099</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਸਚੇ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥੧॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Parbhatey Prabh Naam Jup Gur Key Charan Dhiaye</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Janum Marun Mul Utrey Sachey Key Gunn Gaye</li> </ul><p></p><p>Parbhatey (time when realisation comes) that I need to Realise God/ enlightenment (Naam Jup) Guru is messenger. Charan (feet show direction – so it means the message) and Gunn Gaye is explaining how to Naam Jup (realisation)</p><p></p><ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ SGGS 803</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Simar Munna Raam Nam Chitarey</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Buss Rahey Hirdey Gur Charan Pyare</li> </ul><p></p><p>Simran (remember/keep in mind) the gunns/attributes (Naam) of Raam the creator. Gur Charan is the </p><p>direction/message /shabad from Banee.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gyani Jarnail Singh, post: 213970, member: 189"] [LIST] [*][B]Vaheguru as a Mantar/Name of God? [/B] [LIST] [*]947 shabads /5600 verses by Guru Nanak but NO ‘Vaheguru’ [*]63 shabads /250 verses by Guru Angad but NO ‘Vaheguru’ [*]869 shabads /5100 verses by Guru Amar Das but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]638 shabads /3800 verses by Guru Ram Das but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]2313 shabads /13900 verses by Guru Arjun but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]115 shabads /690 verses by Guru Teg Bahadur but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]788 shabads /4000 verses by the 16 Bhagats but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]11 shabads /100 verses by 3 other Sikhs but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [*]5714 shabads /30000 TOTAL verses by Gurus, Bhagats and Sikhs but NO word ‘Vaheguru’ [/LIST] [*][B]SGGS Principles Re: God’s Name [/B] [LIST] [*]He has No proper name [*]His names are given by His children (Bhagats) [*]ALL His names are ‘[I]Kirtam[/I]’ – descriptions of His perceived [/LIST] [/LIST] Virtues (adjectives – Giver, Helper, Kind, Benevolent, Powerful etc) [LIST] [*]So ALL such perceived virtues are acceptable [*]One virtue cannot be superior to the other [LIST] [*]ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ SGGS 1083 [*]Kirtam Naam Kathye Tere Jehba, Sat Nam Tera Pra Poorbla [/LIST] [/LIST] Kirtam means virtues and His PRIMARY virtue (Pra Poorbla) within Gurbani is ਸਤਿ Sat from Sanskrit ‘satya’ ([B]permanently in existence)[/B] [LIST] [*]SGGS thus begins with a Salok as the [B]preamble[/B] [LIST] [*]ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ [*]Ek Oangkar Sat Naam Karta Purakh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Moorat Ajooni Saibhang Gur Parsad. [/LIST] [/LIST] The debate of His ‘one’name is futile and hence rejected as WE humans created all His names! ALL names are acceptable in SGGS – [LIST] [*]From Puratan tradition – [I]Har, Ram[/I] ….. [*]From Muslim tradition – [I]Allah, Rahim[/I] …. [*]From Puratan tradition – [I]Alakh, Niranjan[/I]…. [*]From Puratan tradition – [I]Beethal, Raiya[/I] …. [*]From Personal tradition – [I]Pita, Mata[/I]…. [*]Example of a shabad by Bhagat Namdev (SGGS 727) [LIST] [*]ਮੈ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਕੀ ਟੇਕ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁੰਦਕਾਰਾ ॥ [*]Mein Andhley Kee Tek Tera Nam Khundkara || [/LIST] [/LIST] Where many descriptive names are used – [I]Khundkara, Adhara, Kareema, Raheema, Allah, Ganee, Hazra Hazoor, Dana Beena, Suami Bakhshand, Hari[/I] [LIST] [*]Meaning of word Vaheguru in Bhattan dey Swayeay SGGS 1402 [LIST] [*]ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ [/LIST] [/LIST] Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vahe jio is used in praise of Guru Arjun [LIST] [*]The word Vaheguru is combination of two words (Vah is Persian and Guru is Sanskrit) [*]Vah is an exclamation that is an involuntary utterance. [*]A voluntary utterance is pretensious/fake. [*]A forced utterance is Ritualistic [*]Shabad by Bhatts in praise of Guru Arjun SGGS 1403 [LIST] [*]ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ [*][I]Satguru[/I] Satguru Satguru Gobind jio [/LIST] [/LIST] [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ [*][I]Sri Guru[/I] Sri Guru Sri Guru Sat jio [/LIST][/INDENT] [LIST] [*]Name of God not as Satguru or Sri Guru – why only ‘Vaheguru’ has been selected and by whom? [*]What word did the Bhatts use for God’s name in SGGS/Bhatt Dey Swayeay? (SGGS 1404 – same words as Guru Nanak) [LIST] [*]ਅਗਮੁ ਅਨੰਤੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ [*][I]Agum Anant Anad Aad[/I] Jis Koe na Janey [/LIST] [/LIST] [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਸਰ ਕੋਈ ॥ [*][I]Nirangkar Nirvair[/I] Avan Nahi Dusar Koe [/LIST] [LIST] [*]ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਚਿਤਹ ਬਸੈ ॥੧॥ [*][I]Sri Sat Nam Karta Purakh[/I] Gur Ramdas Chithey Basey [/LIST][/INDENT] [LIST] [*]Conclusions regarding Vaheguru, Satguru, Sriguru in Bhattan Dey Swayeay [*]Bhatts had come from South India and they stayed with Guru Arjun for a couple of years before they penned their praise in Swayeays (refer Bhai Gurdas) [*]Words are used to call out/refer to Guruji [*]Used to express Greatness, Magnificience, Awe, Amazement of Guruji [*]The metaphors used are from their (Bhatts) existing canvas (Vedic) [*]What is the logic of repeated chanting of ‘Vaheguru’ [LIST] [*]To repeatedly call out Guruji or repeatedly express Greatness, Magnificience, Awe, Amazement – on what grounds? To flatter or please the Guru? [*]Vah Vah Vah as just for the sake of repeating Vah/ Jup as chanting is meaningless and forced without knowing the virtues of the Guru [*]Enlightened Vah after understanding /Jup as realising – (Nanak Gya Japey Jaye). Bhatts were mesmerised AFTER knowing the Guru’s virtues so their utterances are meaningful and spontaneous. They couldn’t help but say Vah at the Guru’s Magnificience! [/LIST] [*]Vaheguru as Gurmantar Re: Bhai Gurdas 13-2 [LIST] [*]ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ। [*]Vaheguru Gur Mantar Hai Jup Satsang Viloyee [/LIST] [/LIST] [LIST] [*]Magnificient Guru, You are My Mantar (here Mantar is used as in within Gurbani) [/LIST] [LIST] [*]Meaning of word Mantar in Gurbani Framework as opposed to Meaning outside of Gurbani [/LIST] [LIST] [*]in Gurbani it means Shabad/Bani/Guru/Message/ Advice/Primary Direction/Basics (as a guide to myself), NOT a continuum of Jantar, Mantar, Tantar [*]in Gurbani the objective is for internal/self change and NOT external change or effect [*]in Gurbani the applicability is for understanding and applying and NOT repetive recital/chanting [*]In Gurbani ‘Mantar’ is translated as spiritual advice/guidance/ direction – from Sanskrit word ‘Mantari’ meaning advice. [*]So if I accept the words Mool Mantar it would mean that the words are my primary root advice/spiritual guidance that I have to believe in and apply in my life [*]If I accept the word Gurmantar it would mean that the Guru is my Mantar, my guide, who gives me my direction …… [*]And Vaheguru Mantar Hai means ‘Vah You are my Magnificent Guru/guide who has made me realise the true message’ [*]Examples of ‘Mantar’ in SGGS [LIST] [*]ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ SGGS 576 [*]Gur Mantar Shabd Sach Deeta Raam || [/LIST] [/LIST] Guru gave the shabad as mantar (spiritual guidance/message that creates enlightenment) that made me realise the true Creator within me [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਸਚੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ SGGS 562 [*]Sach Mantar Tumara Amrit Banee || [/LIST][/INDENT] The true mantar (spiritual guidance/message) is in the reading, understanding, internalising and applying of banee [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ ॥ SGGS 864 [*]Gur Key Shabd Mantar Mun Maan || a [/LIST][/INDENT] Fully accept and obey the mantar (spiritual guidance) that is in the Guru’s Shabad (enlightenment) [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਬਾਣੀ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਕੀ ਮਨਹਿ ਉਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਂਨ ਕਉ ॥ SGGS 1208 [*]Banee Mantar Mha Purkhan Kee Maneh Utaran Maan Kao || [/LIST][/INDENT] Banee is the mantar (spiritual guidance to create enlightenment) of elevated and spiritually enlightened souls [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ SGGS 274 [*]Beej Mantar Sarab Ko Gyaan || [/LIST][/INDENT] The seed, essence, root, of spiritual knowledge is in the mantar (spiritual guidance, banee, shabad, message) [LIST] [*]What is ਜਪੁ Jup? Does ਜਪੁ mean chant? [LIST] [*]Bhai Gurdas 437 [*]Khand Khand Kahey Jehba Swad Metho Aivey Agun Agun Kajhey Seet Na Binas Hai [/LIST] [/LIST] By repeating/chanting word ‘sugar sugar,’ the tongue cannot taste sweetness, and repeating ‘fire fire’ cannot get warmth in the cold, similarly repeating ‘doctor doctor’ cannot get better from sickness etc [INDENT][LIST] [*]Bhai Gurdas 542 [*]Taisey Gyan Gosat Kahet Na Rahet Pavey Karnee Pardhan Bhan Udat Akas Hai [/LIST][/INDENT] In Sikhi it is the realising/accepting/walking (Karnee Pardhan) NOT recitation ….. (Philosopher in Sanskrit is adarshanik from daras – philosophy/ message) [INDENT][LIST] [*]Bhatt SGGS 1410 [*]ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥ [*]ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥ [*]Tatt Bichar Yahey Mathura Jug Taran Kao Avtar Banayeo. [*]Japeyo Jin Arjun Dev Guru Fir Sangkat Jon Garabh Na Aiyo. [/LIST][/INDENT] Mathura Bhatt says the essence (tatt bichar) is that who realises /accepts (japeyo) Guru Arjun as guide/messenger/guru will not encounter (garab) any obstacles (jon) in his spiritual mindset (sangkat). [LIST] [*]Conclusions [LIST] [*]Manglacharan and Mool Mantar are both man-made labels [*]Gurus did NOT label the [B]preamble[/B] as such [*]Words ‘Mool, Mantar, Mool Mantar, Manglacharan’ are Not found in the preamble that is used 568 times in SGGS [*]If we agree to refer to the [B]preamble[/B] as ‘Mool Mantar’ it has to come from the application of the Gurbani Framework (Grammar-based and internal validity within Gurbani) and thus its meaning is the Shabad/Banee/Guru as the ‘primary/basic/root of all things –God.’ [*]Meaning of ਜਪੁ Jup in SGGS is [LIST] [*]Banee titled ਜਪੁ Jup [*]Defined in 38 Pauris, 2 Saloks, 2600 words, 7 pages in a process of knowing and NOT Chanting [/LIST] [/LIST] [/LIST] Listening (suneyeh in 4 Pauris) [I]not reading [/I] Believing (maney in 4 Pauris) Accepting (panch parwan panch pardhan ) Internalising (sodar keha so ghar keha) Walking (Nanak geya japey jaye) Living (last salok/ jini nam thiayaa) [INDENT][LIST] [*]Jup/Jaap ਜਪੁ ਜਪਿ [*]ਨਾਨਕ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩੪॥ SGGS 7 [*]Nanak Gayea Japey Jaye [/LIST][/INDENT] Nanak has walked (gayea) this path (japey) now you do same (jaye) ਨਾਮੁ Naam does NOT mean name but [B]attributes, virtues /gunns[/B] [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਵਿਸਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ SGGS 762 [*]ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਚਾਉ ਏਹੁ ॥੮॥੨॥੫॥੧੬॥ [*]Visar Nahi Dataar Aapna Naam Deh [*]Gun Gavan Din Raat Nanak Chao Eh [/LIST][/INDENT] May I never forget (visar) Your virtues (naam). Give me a realisation/ understanding (gavan) of Your virtues (gunn) [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ SGGS 192 [*]Jup Munn Merey Gobind Kee Banee [/LIST][/INDENT] O mind of mine, realise/understand the Banee [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧਿਆਇ ॥ SGGS 1099 [*]ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਸਚੇ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥੧॥ [*]Parbhatey Prabh Naam Jup Gur Key Charan Dhiaye [*]Janum Marun Mul Utrey Sachey Key Gunn Gaye [/LIST][/INDENT] Parbhatey (time when realisation comes) that I need to Realise God/ enlightenment (Naam Jup) Guru is messenger. Charan (feet show direction – so it means the message) and Gunn Gaye is explaining how to Naam Jup (realisation) [INDENT][LIST] [*]ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ SGGS 803 [*]ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ [*]Simar Munna Raam Nam Chitarey [*]Buss Rahey Hirdey Gur Charan Pyare [/LIST][/INDENT] Simran (remember/keep in mind) the gunns/attributes (Naam) of Raam the creator. Gur Charan is the direction/message /shabad from Banee. [/QUOTE]
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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Vaheguru As A Mantar/name Of God?
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