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Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Understanding Guru As Per Granth Sahib
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 82647" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong><span style="color: darkred">( quote Sikh 80 Ji)</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: darkred">[/FONT]</span></strong><span style="color: black">By <em>default </em>we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.</span></p><p><span style="color: black">Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clea<strong>r.</strong>[/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: black">The [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><em><span style="color: blue">Perfect Guru [/FONT]</span></em></strong><strong><span style="color: black">has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><em><span style="color: blue">True Lord[/FONT]</span></em></strong><strong><span style="color: black">.[/FONT]</span></strong></li> </ul><p> <strong><span style="color: blue">This line contains [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: darkorange">perfect Guru and God [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: blue">and states that [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: darkorange">perfect Guru [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: blue">has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of [/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: darkorange">Lord.[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: black"> This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">True.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #339966">[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: black">Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black">[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: green">It is Guru, qualified with adjective perfect to clarify the power of real one. <u>The words should be understood and expressed only in the context they are used</u>[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black">[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above][/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Satguru is also used for Lord but you have to find the context, when He is shown, it is by Guru along with His grace, Guru ji never actually want the credit, that is why it is stated none is equal to Him, even when Guru Does, it is still His grace as I quoted from Mehl 3 in another thread" He shows himself in Guru, He brings honor to Guru..” Why only Guru’s blessings are not enough? Ponder over it? Gurbani verifies this repeatedly. Why? If Guru is God, why still HIS blessings are being begged? <u>Guru ji is very clear, he leads, followers to follow right way and His grace is still sought as per Guru ji declaration.</u></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #339966">[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: black">I shall post my doubts in this thread after you have replied to this.There would be more than 100 tuk's where the term Guru/satguru and GOd have appeared in a single line. Obviously I cannot assign the same meaning to the different terms employed in bani.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Same thing, <u>look at the context, the words are used in.</u></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #339966"><u></u>[/FONT]</span><span style="color: black">I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani. [/FONT]</span>The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of SGGS ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.One can find other attrubutes from the bani.</strong></p><p> <strong>[/FONT]</strong> <strong>Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">I agree, in nut a shell, this is the difference, why” Ajooni” is repeated in Gurbani, why Fifth Nanak curses those who call born individuals to be God since He is Ajooni and manifests in every one., why HE is addressed as Infinite, Inexpressible? Just to teach followers not to take bait from others who are there to promote human worship</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #339966">[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a>. One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">They were enlightened by the Lord and remained way higher than other humans, Sikhs revered them as God like humans (which also fortify the humbleness within) , many fall for the bait and started doing what Guru ji said not to do.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong>Each <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Respecting Guru is very important. If there is no respect, how Guru Teachings can be followed truly? Respect for Gurbani must be at the same level.” Mannyai” believing occurs with respect, “Mun rakhiai bhaao” then love comes, first respect, “darr” also literally means “ fear due to respect” then “love” due to faith and respect cement the mind to follow as Guru/Gurbani directs otherwise trivial doubts will hinder the process.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong>The above is a qualification of the creator or the kartapurukh or some may call HIM as Akaal Purukh. He is not in the bondage of time. He is not transitory like us. He is the architect of our destiny and this none can be . Our Guru Sahibs had attained the heights of spirituality and had left an example that anyone can rise to that adorable level by following the teachings that are contained in the sabad-guru Maharaaj.i.e Dhan <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html" target="_blank">Guru Granth</a> Sahib ji<span style="color: #339966">.( With His grace only )</span>[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji HE is the subject; Guru and sincere hearts are aids for that path of Truth; however, His grace is still vital as per Guru ji. Lets put it in simple words” Guru ji shows us a the path leading to Him, walking without any failure is in HIS hands and in ours hands.” In His hands” means His grace is still required” and “ in our hands” means that we need to do exactly what Guru says( we have to win the battle with the five). As we are aware of the fact that by studying SGGS Ji, we see what we are supposed to do, how to walk as per Guru teachings, success depends how much sincerity is in our efforts to follow Guru and still His grace remains in His hands.[/FONT]</span></strong><strong></strong></p><p><strong>The tenth Master had ordered that after his passing away the Granth Sahib should be the Guru was sikhs and this Guru is also treated as 11th Nanak as it contains the bani of earlier Guru and some Bhagats. </strong></p><p><strong>Granth Sahib ji contains the immaculate bani of the various seers and Bhagats.It is a compilation of the select banis of Gurus. The Nanak05 did the compilation and had appointed many scribes for this job.</strong></p><p><strong>The bani is stated to be 'Dhur ki bani' or 'Nirankaar' as it is stated to have originated from the God himself and our Guru Sahibs were chosen to mouth organ this bani. After the tenth Master the Guru Gaddi concept came to an end and sikhs find it easy to have the teachings in the Form of Granth i.e is called as <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html" target="_blank">Guru Granth</a> sahib or some even prefer to call this as Nanak11 or the living Guru.[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Regardless in what kind of words one reveres the Guru, it is the journey which is vital. If journey is started with hypocrisy, show off, beating the drum unnecessarily, boat is destined to be doomed. If it has started with high gravity of sincerity, Guru Support can lead to His grace eventually. I just wonder how we have the right to call Guru as God, we are advised otherwise. All metaphors are used to establish high reverence of the enlightened ones.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #339966">Here is Guru ji clearly states about HIM and His creation Guru[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਨੁ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਜੋਨੀ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੋਲਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੋਲਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%81" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਚੁ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੂਰਾ</span> </a></span></span><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Ḏẖan ḏẖarṇīḏẖar āp ajonī ṯol bol sacẖ pūrā.</span> </p><p><span style="color: navy">Blessed is He, the supporter of the earth, who Himself is unborn and whose decision and speech are true and perfect.</span> ( <span style="color: green">here “ tol bol” implies only His perfection)</span></p><p><span style="color: green"></span></p><p><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਤੇ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਿਤਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਤਾ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%88" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਣੈ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%88" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੈ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%88" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਣੈ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰੁ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੂਰਾ</span> </a></span></span><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੩</span></span><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Karṯė kī miṯ karṯā jāṇai kai jāṇai gur sūrā. ||3||</span> </p><p><span style="color: navy">The Creator's extent, only the Creator knows, or knows the valiant Guru,</span><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>[pk 70 ji..you have to answer my question at post 1.Kindly do that.][/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong>Bani, Sanskrit van! (meaning sound, voice, music; speech, language, diction; praise, laudation), refers in the specifically <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> context to the sacred compositions of the Gurus and of the holy saints and sufis as incorporated in</strong></p><p><strong>[/FONT]</strong> <strong>the Scripture, the Granth Sahib. Compositions of Guru Gobind Singh comprising the Dasam Granth are also referred to as Bani. For Sikhs, Bani or the compound Gurbani (Guru`s ban!) is the revealed word.</strong></p><p><strong>Revelation is defined as the way God discloses and communicates Himself to humanity. There are different views on how he does this. The Hindu belief is that God occasionally becomes incarnate as an avatar and thus communicates Himself through his word and action while living on this earth. For the Muslims the revelation consists in actual words in the form of direct messages conveyed from God through an angel. Gabriel, to the Prophet. </strong></p><p><strong>Another belief is that God communicates not the form but the content of the words, i.e. knowledge, to man. A related view is that, as a result of the mystic unity they achieve with the Universal Self, certain individuals under Divine inspiration arrive at truths which they impart to the world.</strong></p><p><strong>Bani Nirankaar hey.....[/FONT]</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: green">In other thread( who is Guru of Sikhs) I posted Fifth Nanak’s own words about Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he calls it” pothi Parmeshar ka thaan” A place of God to realize HIM, a beautiful metaphor. He also qualifies it to tell us how it is place of God, we learn all about God from Guru Granth Sahib ji. On that thread, <u>Laihayer ji</u> too elaborated the real meanings behind Guru ji’s usage of metaphors to establish reverence of the Guru as well, please read it, it is worth reading to understand Guru Message; when one “ tuk” from here and the other from there is used to beat the drum loudly, Guru Message is buried down under one’s own views; however, in the end, TRUTH pervails.[/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: green">Remember we are coming from a culture where humans are worshiped as real Gods and their business is booming. Guru ji has tried to break that trend but couldn’t eliminate debris of thousands years. His Ordinance, Vismaad, Vismaad !!!!!![/FONT]</span></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 82647, member: 5889"] [B][COLOR=darkred]( quote Sikh 80 Ji) [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black]By [I]default [/I]we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master. Let us look at following Line. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clea[B]r.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][COLOR=black]The [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][I][COLOR=blue]Perfect Guru [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][COLOR=black]has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][I][COLOR=blue]True Lord[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][COLOR=black].[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [/LIST] [B][COLOR=blue]This line contains [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=darkorange]perfect Guru and God [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=blue]and states that [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=darkorange]perfect Guru [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=blue]has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=darkorange]Lord.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black] This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]True. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black]Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.? [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=green]It is Guru, qualified with adjective perfect to clarify the power of real one. [U]The words should be understood and expressed only in the context they are used[/U][/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black] [As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Satguru is also used for Lord but you have to find the context, when He is shown, it is by Guru along with His grace, Guru ji never actually want the credit, that is why it is stated none is equal to Him, even when Guru Does, it is still His grace as I quoted from Mehl 3 in another thread" He shows himself in Guru, He brings honor to Guru..” Why only Guru’s blessings are not enough? Ponder over it? Gurbani verifies this repeatedly. Why? If Guru is God, why still HIS blessings are being begged? [U]Guru ji is very clear, he leads, followers to follow right way and His grace is still sought as per Guru ji declaration.[/U] [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black]I shall post my doubts in this thread after you have replied to this.There would be more than 100 tuk's where the term Guru/satguru and GOd have appeared in a single line. Obviously I cannot assign the same meaning to the different terms employed in bani.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Same thing, [U]look at the context, the words are used in. [/U][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]I had to restart this thread to understand if there is some standardization of the usage of the terms in the Bani. [/FONT][/COLOR]The above Mool -Mantra is the first entry of SGGS ji and is from the bani of Guru Nanak dev ji [First nanak]. It was authored by Guru Nanak so that all the sikhs form a common basis of understanding the lord , the Creator; the Almighty. He has given the bare minimal attributes of the Lord so that the concept of God in the masses can be spread with ease.One can find other attrubutes from the bani. [/FONT][/B] [B]Guru Nanak never claimed that he himself is/was a God. [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] philosophy rejects the appearance of God in the human garb. Infact, this is one of the major characteristics that separates [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] from the other eastern religions like Hinduism in which it is believed that God can take the human format and can be on the earth through the route of womb.[/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]I agree, in nut a shell, this is the difference, why” Ajooni” is repeated in Gurbani, why Fifth Nanak curses those who call born individuals to be God since He is Ajooni and manifests in every one., why HE is addressed as Infinite, Inexpressible? Just to teach followers not to take bait from others who are there to promote human worship [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] does not believe in this and rejects this claim that God can take the Birth. Any one who tries to present this kind of message is not doing any service to [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL]. One the important attributes Of the Lord is that He created Himself and this none else is capable of and that includes our Guru sahibs and other mortals. It is just to point out that Guru Sahibaan came here as ordinary human beings and made themselves so high that sikhs even to date worship them literally and treat them as God but that does not make them the Creator.[/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]They were enlightened by the Lord and remained way higher than other humans, Sikhs revered them as God like humans (which also fortify the humbleness within) , many fall for the bait and started doing what Guru ji said not to do.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B]Each [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] is clear about this.Yes, there are few lines in the Granth sahib that states directly or indirectly that one should not find difference between Guru and God. However, one should not forget that Supreme status of eternal Guru is that of The Lord , the Creator and causes of all Causes. It is due to the respect that the Bhatts and Balwant and sat had called them almost equal to Lord. It is sheer out of pure love and adoration that it has been done and may be we also do like wise but without getting lost as to who is the Ultimate Guru or satguru. He is that HE is and was and shall be.[/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Respecting Guru is very important. If there is no respect, how Guru Teachings can be followed truly? Respect for Gurbani must be at the same level.” Mannyai” believing occurs with respect, “Mun rakhiai bhaao” then love comes, first respect, “darr” also literally means “ fear due to respect” then “love” due to faith and respect cement the mind to follow as Guru/Gurbani directs otherwise trivial doubts will hinder the process.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B]The above is a qualification of the creator or the kartapurukh or some may call HIM as Akaal Purukh. He is not in the bondage of time. He is not transitory like us. He is the architect of our destiny and this none can be . Our Guru Sahibs had attained the heights of spirituality and had left an example that anyone can rise to that adorable level by following the teachings that are contained in the sabad-guru Maharaaj.i.e Dhan [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib ji[COLOR=#339966].( With His grace only )[/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Through out Guru Granth Sahib Ji HE is the subject; Guru and sincere hearts are aids for that path of Truth; however, His grace is still vital as per Guru ji. Lets put it in simple words” Guru ji shows us a the path leading to Him, walking without any failure is in HIS hands and in ours hands.” In His hands” means His grace is still required” and “ in our hands” means that we need to do exactly what Guru says( we have to win the battle with the five). As we are aware of the fact that by studying SGGS Ji, we see what we are supposed to do, how to walk as per Guru teachings, success depends how much sincerity is in our efforts to follow Guru and still His grace remains in His hands.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B] The tenth Master had ordered that after his passing away the Granth Sahib should be the Guru was sikhs and this Guru is also treated as 11th Nanak as it contains the bani of earlier Guru and some Bhagats. Granth Sahib ji contains the immaculate bani of the various seers and Bhagats.It is a compilation of the select banis of Gurus. The Nanak05 did the compilation and had appointed many scribes for this job. The bani is stated to be 'Dhur ki bani' or 'Nirankaar' as it is stated to have originated from the God himself and our Guru Sahibs were chosen to mouth organ this bani. After the tenth Master the Guru Gaddi concept came to an end and sikhs find it easy to have the teachings in the Form of Granth i.e is called as [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] sahib or some even prefer to call this as Nanak11 or the living Guru.[/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Regardless in what kind of words one reveres the Guru, it is the journey which is vital. If journey is started with hypocrisy, show off, beating the drum unnecessarily, boat is destined to be doomed. If it has started with high gravity of sincerity, Guru Support can lead to His grace eventually. I just wonder how we have the right to call Guru as God, we are advised otherwise. All metaphors are used to establish high reverence of the enlightened ones.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#339966]Here is Guru ji clearly states about HIM and His creation Guru[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=maroon][FONT=AnmolUniPr][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81"][FONT=Raavi]ਧਨੁ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81"][FONT=Raavi]ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80"][FONT=Raavi]ਅਜੋਨੀ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਤੋਲਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਬੋਲਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%9A%E0%A9%81"][FONT=Raavi]ਸਚੁ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE"][FONT=Raavi]ਪੂਰਾ[/FONT] [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=maroon][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Tahoma]Ḏẖan ḏẖarṇīḏẖar āp ajonī ṯol bol sacẖ pūrā.[/FONT] [COLOR=navy]Blessed is He, the supporter of the earth, who Himself is unborn and whose decision and speech are true and perfect.[/COLOR] ( [COLOR=green]here “ tol bol” implies only His perfection) [/COLOR] [COLOR=maroon][FONT=AnmolUniPr][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87"][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਤੇ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%80"][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਮਿਤਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE"][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਤਾ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%88"][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਣੈ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%88"][FONT=Raavi]ਕੈ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%88"][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਣੈ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%81"][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰੁ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE"][FONT=Raavi]ਸੂਰਾ[/FONT] [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=maroon][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=maroon][FONT=Raavi]੩[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=maroon][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Tahoma]Karṯė kī miṯ karṯā jāṇai kai jāṇai gur sūrā. ||3||[/FONT] [COLOR=navy]The Creator's extent, only the Creator knows, or knows the valiant Guru,[/COLOR][B] [pk 70 ji..you have to answer my question at post 1.Kindly do that.][/FONT][/B] [B]Bani, Sanskrit van! (meaning sound, voice, music; speech, language, diction; praise, laudation), refers in the specifically [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] context to the sacred compositions of the Gurus and of the holy saints and sufis as incorporated in [/FONT][/B] [B]the Scripture, the Granth Sahib. Compositions of Guru Gobind Singh comprising the Dasam Granth are also referred to as Bani. For Sikhs, Bani or the compound Gurbani (Guru`s ban!) is the revealed word. Revelation is defined as the way God discloses and communicates Himself to humanity. There are different views on how he does this. The Hindu belief is that God occasionally becomes incarnate as an avatar and thus communicates Himself through his word and action while living on this earth. For the Muslims the revelation consists in actual words in the form of direct messages conveyed from God through an angel. Gabriel, to the Prophet. Another belief is that God communicates not the form but the content of the words, i.e. knowledge, to man. A related view is that, as a result of the mystic unity they achieve with the Universal Self, certain individuals under Divine inspiration arrive at truths which they impart to the world. Bani Nirankaar hey.....[/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=green]In other thread( who is Guru of Sikhs) I posted Fifth Nanak’s own words about Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he calls it” pothi Parmeshar ka thaan” A place of God to realize HIM, a beautiful metaphor. He also qualifies it to tell us how it is place of God, we learn all about God from Guru Granth Sahib ji. On that thread, [U]Laihayer ji[/U] too elaborated the real meanings behind Guru ji’s usage of metaphors to establish reverence of the Guru as well, please read it, it is worth reading to understand Guru Message; when one “ tuk” from here and the other from there is used to beat the drum loudly, Guru Message is buried down under one’s own views; however, in the end, TRUTH pervails.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=green]Remember we are coming from a culture where humans are worshiped as real Gods and their business is booming. Guru ji has tried to break that trend but couldn’t eliminate debris of thousands years. His Ordinance, Vismaad, Vismaad !!!!!![/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=green][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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