Transgenderism . Right Or Wrong?

findingmyway

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World citizen!

??? I think you have completely misunderstood me. It is the code on those chromosomes that determines our predisposition to so many things including gender dissociation disorder. Environment plays a role in whether those genes are switched on or off and how they are translated from what I have read.
 

namjiwankaur

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Nov 14, 2010
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Sat Nam _/|\_

Brothers and sisters, please remember this is more than a debate for the person who started the thread. It is about someone's life here. So lets debate about it somewhere else and save the thread here for our friend to discuss the way it feels to face this challenge in life.

IMHO, its not up to me or anyone else here. It is a decision that has to come from the person. I think if we go deep inside, we can connect to an internal connection we have always with WaheGuru. That darkness that comes when we are faced with big challenges can get brighter if we just call on WaheGuru to shed Light on it for us.

Something to think about. We say God makes someone male or female and its hukam. In a sense, you could say that about many things related to the body. Not that I'm comparing gender reassignment to illness, but if we end up with the DNA that causes us to be bipolar or schizophrenic, do we then say its God's will and deny the ill person medication? If a person is born with a cleft lip, do we say that is hukam and deny them the surgery?

I think there is a reason some people are given this test which leads sometimes to gender reassignment. And I don't think its an illness. I believe these people are more like a test for the rest of us. Accepting the LGBT community is a challenge for the people of this century.

In the 60s, in the US, it was civil rights marches led by Martin Luther King. In the 70s, women fought for equality. In these times, we are faced with the equality of LGBT people. God must challenge ppl this way for a reason.

If someone feels their destiny may include gender reassignment, who are we to mess with that destiny.

OK, hopping off the soap box. As you were! :)

Nam Jiwan
 

WWW

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Jun 25, 2011
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??? I think you have completely misunderstood me. It is the code on those chromosomes that determines our predisposition to so many things including gender dissociation disorder. Environment plays a role in whether those genes are switched on or off and how they are translated from what I have read.

Ok. Does mutilating the genitalia change the persons chromosomes? Kind of back to square one. I wouldn't doubt that their is a genetic cause, or at least predisposition to this type of disorder, but again, what are you really fixing by giving them a "*****" of sorts... the fact is that the OP would still be a woman. The OP came in asking for opinions, and its my opinion that she should not do this. Over the long term, what kind of life is this? However, I am not a psychiatrist, and I do not know the OP, so my opinion is not based on her personally but on gender switching in general. I find the practice unethical, and destructive, but, again, im not a shrink.

This is not a small decision, its an absolutely huge decision, and I would suggest to the OP to only do this if she has completely exhausted her other alternatives and thoroughly discussed this with her psychiatrist.
 

Kaylee

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May 23, 2013
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Sorry for reviving this thread. I was wondering how the Sikh deal with transexuality and came across this thread. I'm quite happy with most of the repsonses, though I think I can add some information.

Gender comes in many, many variants, not just male or female. I do believe that you cannot change your gender, but it is hard to determine someones, or even your own gender. Determining what chromosomes you have or looking between your legs wont work. At least one in 500 people are born with a gender that does not match with their genitals. Those people are transgender. It is important to remember that they were born transgender and did not choose to be so.

The OP already made very clear that he is male. He did not choose to be male. Becuase of his body, his parents wrongfully determined that he is a girl and decided to raise him as a girl. Now that everyone around him thinks he is a girl, he plays along with the lie, pretending he is a girl.

If the OP would decide to transition, he would not change his gender. He would stay a boy. However, he would stop pretending that he is not a boy. He would stop lying about his gender. Transition is a social process, in which the OP learns to live as the gender he was born with and the people around him start to treat him as the boy he is.

I would strongly suggest that the OP goes into transition. Though he should choose which steps to take when carefully, as transitioning can be very expensive. It is impossible how anyone would react and he could possible be thrown onto the streets, just for telling that he does not want to lie anymore. If that happens, he needs to be able to support himself.

I strongly suggest transition, because living a lie is hard and depressing. And even more, because a lie is not worth living. That is the main reason why many transgenders have considered, attempted or committed suicide. Considering this, transitioning is not much of a choice.

Neelum, how are you doing? What path did you choose? I hope that your family is supportive and helps you on the path that you inevitably have to take.
 

Brother Onam

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I remember there was a man a few years ago who thought himself a lizard. He not only had his tongue surgically split in two, he tattooed green scales all over his body and had metal ball-bearings and ridges inserted under his skin to create a crest on his head and reptilian brows.
I guess to some this would be a beautiful and admirable way of somebody liberating themselves to be who they truly feel themselves to be.
There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body, and that the way to undo this mistake is to mangle oneself through frankenstein surgery to vaguely approximate a female's body.
I genuinely feel for the original poster of this topic, and anyone else struggling with this issue, but to think that radical "corrective" surgery and recieving some scientific {censored}tail of hormones from the opposite sex is simply twisted. Whatever the cause of such deep-seated identity problems, I can't believe it is a mistake of the Creator which is then left to us to remedy by surgery; this will yield a freak, not unlike the "lizard-man".
Michael Jackson, until his late forties, with thinning, greying hair and arthritis, was convinced he was a young white boy who never grew up, like his idol, Peter Pan. This might have been fun when he was 12, but, as we have seen, became ever more disturbing as he manifested and acted out these psychoses as he became a middle-aged man.
I'm not sure what the answer is to these complicated emotions, but I know what the answer is not: attempting to undo the work of the Creator and Lifegiver, and correct His/Her error by giving into, and embracing, and celebrating this aberration.
Immersing oneself in the Holy Naam is the first purpose of life.
 

spnadmin

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SPN permits a wide range of opinions on almost any topic to be posted. Internet forums are after all a place where we should be able to meet and discuss points of view.

Sometimes opinions are supported by the current research on a topic of discussion. Sometimes they are not. Transgenderism is one of those topics. There is research that contradicts the idea that sexual re-assignment is perverse. I encourage all to seek out those studies. It is too easy for a topic that contradicts the values of individuals or groups to turn into a shouting match.

An example. Some people seeking sexual assignment today are not undoing the "work of the Creator." At birth their sexual identity was unclear; their sexual organs were not fully developed. Sometimes surgeons decide, often without input from parents, to "assign" a gender to the newborn and operate on the infant. This procedure is called "normalizing surgery" when performed on a child. The surgeon decided whether the infant was to be a girl or a boy. Later there is psychological confusion when the infant matures into an adult. Female hormones in a male body, or vice versa. In those cases the "work" of a surgeon, a mortal, is being undone, not the work of the Creator. So lets tread carefully on this subject.

This is a thread warning.


Thank you!
 
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Harry Haller

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I remember there was a man a few years ago who thought himself a lizard. He not only had his tongue surgically split in two, he tattooed green scales all over his body and had metal ball-bearings and ridges inserted under his skin to create a crest on his head and reptilian brows.
I guess to some this would be a beautiful and admirable way of somebody liberating themselves to be who they truly feel themselves to be.

The man concerned has a BA in philosophy, maybe we should summon him to this forum so that he can expain himself to you, as far as I know, he is not a Sikh, so is not under any obligation to keep his body intact, it is a free world, I would guess that there is some commercial angle to his attitude, either way, I would wager I would probably get more sense out of him in a conversation than a lot of normal looking people.

There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body, and that the way to undo this mistake is to mangle oneself through frankenstein surgery to vaguely approximate a female's body.

Interesting thought, so I suppose you are against all surgery, medicine, treatments, as the Lord of the heavens does not make mistakes, so we should let it be, I mean how dare people try and change the divine will.

I genuinely feel for the original poster of this topic, and anyone else struggling with this issue, but to think that radical "corrective" surgery and recieving some scientific {censored}tail of hormones from the opposite sex is simply twisted.

Hmm as twisted as heart transplants? lung transplants? bypass surgery? where would you draw the line?

Whatever the cause of such deep-seated identity problems, I can't believe it is a mistake of the Creator which is then left to us to remedy by surgery; this will yield a freak, not unlike the "lizard-man".

I do not see much Sikh compassion in the above, just bigotry and hatred, freak is quite a strong word. This is from the camp that we should all take what we were given and make the best of it, hole in the heart? no problem, it is not a mistake, cataracts? oh bad luck there, we must not interfere with the will of the Lord, better get used to darkness!

I'm not sure what the answer is to these complicated emotions, but I know what the answer is not: attempting to undo the work of the Creator and Lifegiver, and correct His/Her error by giving into, and embracing, and celebrating this aberration.
Immersing oneself in the Holy Naam is the first purpose of life.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Oh you seem very sure indeed, twisted, freak, aberration, I think you have chosen your words carefully, do tell me how the use of these words confirms your own immersion into the Holy Naam? Also, your definition of Holy Naam would be most interesting.
 

Tejwant Singh

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There are others, I'm told, who think that the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body,

Brother Onam ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no interest in going inside your head to see where these kinds of thoughts come from and for what reason?

Out of all your post only the above in bold aroused my curiosity.(The verb To Arouse is not used in any sexual connotation)

Why do you have nipples being a man?

Are they on your body for breastfeeding or for piercing, or both?

Or as you eloquently put it: the Lord of heavens and earth has made a mistake and accidentally put a female soul in a man's body.

Is the above a mistake by the Lord of the Heavens?

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
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Brother Onam

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Gurfateh!
I appreciate the clarification; I was really speaking of a total reversal of gender. If somebody is indeed born with anatomically mixed gender, certainly this is an obvious fluke of nature with its own complications. The olympic runner Castor (last name?) from South Africa was a recent example. After much controversy as to whether she was indeed female, it was determined she was mainly female, but with, I guess, some extra male hormones or something.
 

Kaylee

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May 23, 2013
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When people encounter someone who behaves in a way that they do not understand, there are 3 common ways, that I have encountered, in which they react:

  • They accept your differences, but do nut understand how to treat you with those differences. How they treat you is based on what they do know, that you're human. So they treat you as a human, with respect and dignity. I'm rather lucky that my friends and colleagues are in this category.
  • They want to understand why you are different. They dissect your live to get to know this and treat you as a lab rat, forgetting that you are also human.
  • They are frightened by you being different. They do not want to respect your differences, but instead want to destroy you. Either by pretending that you do not exist, by ridiculing you, by making your life miserable or worse, by murder.
Unfortunately most people fall into the last category. And unfortunately, transgender people are brutally murdered, a lot. If you are curious, here is a list with dates, names, locations and how they were murdered: http://www.transgenderdor.org/statistics. This year, I'm in the organization for one of the cities remembering their deaths. Some people use their religion to justify their hatred. I find that unfaithful.


It is estimated that 1 in 500 are born transgender: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html. That implies that 12 million transgenders are walking on this earth. If you consider all the hatred they risk by transitioning, then maybe you can imagine how absolutely horrible it must be to live without transitioning.


Science tends to be much more focused on finding theories that are practical, than theories that are true. For example, Newton's laws are used a lot, despite that it has been proven that they are incorrect. They are used because they are practical. They give good and useful result in practice.



You can argue whether a Female-to-Male transgender is truly male. However assuming that it is, is just practical. It makes it much easier to understand such person. He cannot behave like a normal girl, because he is not a girl. He can pretend he is and quite definitely already learned how to do that, but he can never truly be female. He can also not be lesbian, because his girlfriend would expect a girl, which he is not. Yes, that means that if he likes girls, he is hetero.



For those who want to learn more about transsexuality and transgenderism, see: http://lynnconway.com
 

Brother Onam

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Dear SPNadmin,
please, I'm just curious why my comment was deleted. I was merely saying that I myself was unqualified to enter higher realms. I was not saying anything about others. Just curious.
Praise be to Waheguru
 

Inderjeet Kaur

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My thoughts. We know that the female and male brains are constructed and function quite differently. I think it is not stretching credulity to suggest that at some developmental stage a male brain might develop in a female body or vice versa. I have known quite a few transagendered people and they seemed perfectly genuine to me.
 

Brother Onam

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Harry ji,

I believe this is Asa, 5th mehl.

ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹੁ ਕਿਰਮ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਉ ਇਹੈ ਮਨੋਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥੨॥
Dhaeiaa Karahu Kiram Apunae Ko Eihai Manorathh Suaao ||2||


Please, be kind to me - I am just a worm. This is my object and purpose. ||2||
18632 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੧
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#



ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਮਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Than Dhhan Thaeraa Thoon Prabh Maeraa Hamarai Vas Kishh Naahi ||


My body and wealth are Yours; You are my God - nothing is in my power.
18633 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੧
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#


ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਰਹਣਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Jio Jio Raakhehi Thio Thio Rehanaa Thaeraa Dheeaa Khaahi ||3||


As You keep me, so do I live; I eat what You give me. ||3||
18634 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੨
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#


ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਾਟੈ ਮਜਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਧੂਰਿ ॥
Janam Janam Kae Kilavikh Kaattai Majan Har Jan Dhhoor ||


The sins of countless incarnations are washed away, by bathing in the dust of the Lord's humble servants.
18635 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੨
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev

http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#


ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰਮ ਭਉ ਨਾਸੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩੯॥
Bhaae Bhagath Bharam Bho Naasai Har Naanak Sadhaa Hajoor ||4||4||139||


By loving devotional worship, doubt and fear depart; O Nanak, the Lord is Ever-present. ||4||4||139||
18636 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੩
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev



I had spoken of myself as a homeless dog (which is unfortunately true), who had been kicked out of heavenly realms, and my comment was deleted. I was simply inquiring if 'insults' to oneself were also considered inappropriate.


Maybe we are being too delicate here. Much respect to SPNadmin still, O
http://searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/406/line/18632#
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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Harry ji,

I believe this is Asa, 5th mehl.

ਦਇਆ ਕਰਹੁ ਕਿਰਮ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਉ ਇਹੈ ਮਨੋਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ ॥੨॥
Dhaeiaa Karahu Kiram Apunae Ko Eihai Manorathh Suaao ||2||


Please, be kind to me - I am just a worm. This is my object and purpose. ||2||
18632 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੧
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev





ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਮਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Than Dhhan Thaeraa Thoon Prabh Maeraa Hamarai Vas Kishh Naahi ||


My body and wealth are Yours; You are my God - nothing is in my power.
18633 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੧
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev




ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਰਹਣਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Jio Jio Raakhehi Thio Thio Rehanaa Thaeraa Dheeaa Khaahi ||3||


As You keep me, so do I live; I eat what You give me. ||3||
18634 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੨
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev




ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਕਾਟੈ ਮਜਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਧੂਰਿ ॥
Janam Janam Kae Kilavikh Kaattai Majan Har Jan Dhhoor ||


The sins of countless incarnations are washed away, by bathing in the dust of the Lord's humble servants.
18635 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੨
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev




ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰਮ ਭਉ ਨਾਸੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩੯॥
Bhaae Bhagath Bharam Bho Naasai Har Naanak Sadhaa Hajoor ||4||4||139||


By loving devotional worship, doubt and fear depart; O Nanak, the Lord is Ever-present. ||4||4||139||
18636 ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੦੬ ਪੰ. ੩
Raag Asa Guru Arjan Dev



I had spoken of myself as a homeless dog (which is unfortunately true), who had been kicked out of heavenly realms, and my comment was deleted. I was simply inquiring if 'insults' to oneself were also considered inappropriate.


Maybe we are being too delicate here. Much respect to SPNadmin still, O

Brother Omanji

I read the above as leaning towards humility, I am not sure what it has to do with the subject, I guess you are referring to the deleted post, I cannot help you with that unfortunately, but I guess somewhere it breached TOS.

I guess insults are insults whether they are directed towards the self or not, being described as a worm as above I do not think is an insult, more a gesture of humility, I am sorry to hear you are homeless, is there anything that can be done about this? I do not know how the system works in US, but have you taken any advice? is there not a Gurdwara local to you that can put you up? Can we do anything to help?
 
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