Controversial Told DAD That Meat Is NOT Forbidden, And He Gets ANGRY!

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gurbani Anusaar: What is Meat ? Meat Eating in Sikhism - Part 2 - YouTube

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Once a Goat has eaten the GRASS..what keeps on GROWING ?? grass or Goat ??
Once man eats Goat...what keeps growing ?? Goat or man ?? THE ATMA KEEPS GROWING....no one can KILL atma...end of argument. ( Goat killed grass BODY ( NOT its ATMA)...same thing man did to Goat....he killed the bODY..and the Atma keeps on LIVING...

The GROWING one is LIFE...JEEV..the one that stopped growing is lifeless..the SOUL/ATMA keeps on LIVING..so whats the FUSS ABOUT >?? Can anybody KILL the ATMA ?? If any one KILLS the ATMA..then maybe there is some argument...otherwise its NO ISSUE.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Gyani ji,
That line of reasoning is limited to the warrior's duty on the battlefield. Where has basically done everything to stay off, but now finds himself forced to fight his elders, his cousins and his guru. When one is forced to kill conscious beings.

That's the reasoning Krishan ji gives Arjun, when he starts having doubts on the battlefield. Krishan ji reminds him of his duty as a warrior, and tells him to step up to the plate and fight, and defeat his relatives who had taken away Arjun's kingdom and wife, everything he owned. Krishan ji says the Atma never dies, so it's a non-issue, whether you kill them or not. It is your duty as a warrior to do so.

Now the line of reasoning in Guru Granth Sahib is that:
1. There is are differences between goat and grass and one of them is: Goat is conscious and experiences pain and suffering due to it being aware of its own pain and suffering.

3. It is wrong to kill humans. why? because they are conscious creatures. It is wrong to kill conscious creatures.

4. It is wrong to kill goats because they are conscious creatures.

When all peaceful means have failed only then it is right to draw the sword. Here we are going straight to killing without any peaceful methods.

 

[bairaagi]

I want to add one point here : Eat whatever you wish but don't argue with you father over something he has believed throughout his life . This is difficult for anyone to change his belief in such age. It will hurt his sentiments.

Imagine when you will be 60 year old and your son comes to you that he want to marry a boy because it is natural and there are many animals in nature which are bisexual and similar logics. How will it feel to you ? Will you change your mind or think from open mind ?

 

[Harry Haller]

I want to add one point here : Eat whatever you wish but don't argue with you father over something he has believed throughout his life . This is difficult for anyone to change his belief in such age. It will hurt his sentiments.

Imagine when you will be 60 year old and your son comes to you that he want to marry a boy because it is natural and there are many animals in nature which are bisexual and similar logics. How will it feel to you ? Will you change your mind or think from open mind ?

The problem with our culture is that over a certain age, people are expected to stop learning. I cannot see the sense in this personally, I look forward to being proved wrong, it means I have learnt something new.

I could not care less if my son decided to marry a boy. The traditional line of thinking would be

1. What will people say
2. What will people say
3. What will people say
4. I will have no grandchildren
5. What will people say
6. Oh well if it makes him happy, fine, but he is a selfish pig

when it should be
1. Oh well, to hell with what people say, as long as he is happy and healthy, and his partner makes him happy, I will integrate this into my life, and if people have a problem with it, that is up to them. Maybe I can bring them closer to Guruji now that they are settled.

 

[BhagatSingh]

The problem with our culture is that over a certain age,

Really Harry ji? Your culture is the same as that of someone in Gurgaon? Where is Gurgaon? :sippingcoffeemunda:

people are expected to stop learning. I cannot see the sense in this personally, I look forward to being proved wrong [sounds good hehe], it means I have learnt something new.

This is not true of Indian/Dharmic culture. People often become highly spiritual, start going to gurudwaras every morning, start reciting bani everyday, participate in satsangs, etc. I stayed with a family whose grandmother was going through Professor Sahib Singh's teeka and we would sometimes discuss it. My aunt, a math professor learned French as she got old, good enough to teach it. She learned to speak better English. Her only wish now is that she isn't able to do doctors in mathematics! My uncles invite doctors to their home , give them space to make their medicine and provide seva to them. Couple times a week they will sit with this doctor, who is always very spiritual advanced, and listen to what he has to say about health, medicine, foods, spirituality, etc. In addition, they have to keep up with new knowledge of commodities at their work, constantly learning.

(Now there are gender differences here. For men opportunities are few later in life. they work till a higher age and die sooner, they don't get the privilege of having time for other things. Very little choice with their lifestyle since a whole family depends on them. Women on the other hand, with the advent of washing machines and microwaves, either work less to very little. They have the time and the 7 years higher life span and less risk of fatal diseases, and less exposed to dangerous situations, to go into further studies at old age.)

I could not care less if my son decided to marry a boy.

Now learning has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Those are societal pressures, biological pressures and mental conditioning. Your environment is missing the first and last. I don't know if you have children, it doesn't matter. Say if you didn't want to have children, then your environment is also missing the biological pressure. Many parents want to see their grandchildren before they die.

So it's actually very easy for you to say what you did. I'm not so sure it would be easy if you were born and raised in Gurgaon, and lived there all your life.

 

[Harry Haller]

Really Harry ji? Your culture is the same as that of someone in Gurgaon? Where is Gurgaon?

Gurgaon, as everyone knows, is situated 4.3 light years away on the planet Glaxon.

Women on the other hand, with the advent of washing machines and microwaves, either work less to very little.

I will hide this from my wife, as she likes you and considers you highly enightened

I have no children, only a stepson

 

[bairaagi]

My answer was keeping my experience with my dad. I once had argument with my dad over similar useless trivial issues and it hurt him very bad . He got depressed and lost health . it took him 6 months to recover after medical treatment and my surrender to my dad's will.
After certain age people start behaving like Ziddi bachha (at least in India).

 

[BhagatSingh]

It's a noble thing you did. Noble is a dead word in modern times but that type of action keeps it alive. kaurhug

 

[kds1980]

Gyani ji,
That line of reasoning is limited to the warrior's duty on the battlefield. Where has basically done everything to stay off, but now finds himself forced to fight his elders, his cousins and his guru. When one is forced to kill conscious beings.

That's the reasoning Krishan ji gives Arjun, when he starts having doubts on the battlefield. Krishan ji reminds him of his duty as a warrior, and tells him to step up to the plate and fight, and defeat his relatives who had taken away Arjun's kingdom and wife, everything he owned. Krishan ji says the Atma never dies, so it's a non-issue, whether you kill them or not. It is your duty as a warrior to do so.

Now the line of reasoning in Guru Granth Sahib is that:
1. There is are differences between goat and grass and one of them is: Goat is conscious and experiences pain and suffering due to it being aware of its own pain and suffering.

3. It is wrong to kill humans. why? because they are conscious creatures. It is wrong to kill conscious creatures.

4. It is wrong to kill goats because they are conscious creatures.

When all peaceful means have failed only then it is right to draw the sword. Here we are going straight to killing without any peaceful methods.

For Humans to survive on earth they need to kill concious creatures .It is just they kill them directly or indirectly.For example to grow crops you need to clear land and kill all the small animals ,insects birds so your crops grow

 

[BhagatSingh]

In understand that.
Agriculture came around 10000 bc. At that time ancient humans also worshipped animals, birds and plants, so their mentality towards other life is slightly different than ours. They saw themselves as children in mother nature's lap. Or perhaps they saw the spirit of all life and saw it as sacred. Before that we hunted, with pretty much with the same sort of reverence for what we hunted.

This is far from how we see things today. We see ourselves as the controller of a machine, nature. As something separate from it, and as something which (not who) we can control and manipulate. The nature machine is lesser than who we are. We are it's rulers (or at least trying to be, in a few years you will see conversation on how to control weather that is... if it hasn't begun already...).

So although the modern and ancient both clear land and kill, they do it in different ways, with different mind sets and intent. And I am sure you understand that the intent and mindset can influence whether an action is right or wrong.

 

[kds1980]

In understand that.
Agriculture came around 10000 bc. At that time ancient humans also worshipped animals, birds and plants, so their mentality towards other life is slightly different than ours. They saw themselves as children in mother nature's lap. Or perhaps they saw the spirit of all life and saw it as sacred. Before that we hunted, with pretty much with the same sort of reverence for what we hunted.

This is far from how we see things today. We see ourselves as the controller of a machine, nature. As something separate from it, and as something which (not who) we can control and manipulate. The nature machine is lesser than who we are. We are it's rulers (or at least trying to be, in a few years you will see conversation on how to control weather that is... if it hasn't begun already...).

So although the modern and ancient both clear land and kill, they do it in different ways, with different mind sets and intent. And I am sure you understand that the intent and mindset can influence whether an action is right or wrong.

These type of arguments are just please the mind.

1) If a person castrate a male calf and force it to plough and pull the load then whether the intent of person ir right or wrong?

2) When a person ties a cow in Diary and force it to produce maximum milk then is the intent right or wrong?.

Since the start of human civilizations we humans have been using animals for our benefits and to obtain these benefit we give them suffering.The products we get them from animals are milk , meat , wool , power , leather etc.Now the problem is many people can't see blood , so they just attack meat. .They just please their mind by thinking that only meat gives animals suffering,. If you point them that leather also causes killing animals they just simply say leather is obtained from dead animals ignoring the fact that 90% + leather comes from killed animals.

Human civilization cannot sustain without using animals .So
Human civilization > animal usage > animal killing.This is the way God/nature has created it

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ok I'm glad to have someone debate with good thoughts, than copying pasting articles or illogical arguments. I appreciate it.

One point of clarification. We can separate these two 1. use and 2. killing.

These type of arguments are just please the mind.

1) If a person castrate a male calf and force it to plough and pull the load then whether the intent of person ir right or wrong?

2) When a person ties a cow in Diary and force it to produce maximum milk then is the intent right or wrong?.

That is neither right nor wrong. That's a trade. The animal is given protection (and safe environment and shelter) and food. In trade for it's labour and reproductive rights. The human caretaker is defending it from predatory animals and diseases. While it helps the caretaker with work and provides other services, transport, milk, eggs, etc.

The products we get them from animals are milk , meat , wool , power , leather etc.

Except for meat and leather, I would say the others are good trades. To obtain meat you need to kill the animal. To kill someone without their consent, permission is what Bhagat Kabir Das ji terms as Jor (use of force) Julam (tyranny). Killing a conscious creature is simply wrong!

Now the problem is many people can't see blood , so they just attack meat. .They just please their mind by thinking that only meat gives animals suffering,. If you point them that leather also causes killing animals they just simply say leather is obtained from dead animals ignoring the fact that 90% + leather comes from killed animals.

In other words they are blind. They don't recognize the leather in their clothes and instruments. But we are also blind if we don't see that killing conscious beings is a wrong action, adharam!

Human civilization cannot sustain without using animals .So
Human civilization > animal usage This is the way God/nature has created it

> animal killing. I'll remove this from there. The above is fine.

Animal killing with the kind of mind set we have is not dharmic. It only leads to things like factory farming, where the animal suffers even more in dirty cramped conditions. We have gone past speculation that the mindset of human thinking he/she is the controller of nature is harmful. We now KNOW this because we have clear evidence for it.

 

[kds1980]

Ok I'm glad to have someone debate with good thoughts, than copying pasting articles or illogical arguments. I appreciate it.

One point of clarification. We can separate these two 1. use and 2. killing.


That is neither right nor wrong. That's a trade. The animal is given protection (and safe environment and shelter) and food. In trade for it's labour and reproductive rights. The human caretaker is defending it from predatory animals and diseases. While it helps the caretaker with work and provides other services, transport, milk, eggs, etc.

What kind of logic is this .Trade is between 2 consenting parties and not where one is using force on others for their own benefit .Have you seen double standard in your argument? Castration is O.K but killing is not.How many males on this earth will give consent to be castrated in trade of protection? And if we go by your logic then Slavery and child labour is also not wrong . people should be bought from from poor parts to do menial jobs in return of good food .clothes, shelter and anybody can say that it is just a trade we are providing them much more what they use to get

Except for meat and leather, I would say the others are good trades. To obtain meat you need to kill the animal. To kill someone without their consent, permission is what Bhagat Kabir Das ji terms as Jor (use of force) Julam (tyranny). Killing a conscious creature is simply wrong!

Again you are wrong all other usage also require animals to be killed.No economy on earth can take the load of useless domesticated animals .Cows are prime examples in India.They are not killed for meat but used for milk and as result millions of surplus useless cows .These cows are burden on economy ,menace to people and results in illegal cow trade to Bangladesh by smugglers which also gives these cows inhumane sufferings .People just please their mind that they are not killing cows, but by hook or crook they just want to get rid of them.The only solution is to kill these cows in humane way.there is no other solution

Animal killing with the kind of mind set we have is not dharmic. It only leads to things like factory farming, where the animal suffers even more in dirty cramped conditions. We have gone past speculation that the mindset of human thinking he/she is the controller of nature is harmful. We now KNOW this because we have clear evidence for it.

Again double standard.You called milk, wool , eggs as trade but for meat you mentioned factory farming .Why not make against factory farming for all these

 

[kds1980]

On your trade argument ,do you know 10 million male buffalo calves are intentionally killed by
farmers because they can't afford to feed milk to them.So now meat industry has approached
mother buffalo as she already trade milk and don't care whether her calf is killed or not ,that she can give her male calves to them and they will raise it for 12 months and then slaughter it lollollollol

 

[BhagatSingh]

What kind of logic is this .Trade is between 2 consenting parties and not where one is using force on others for their own benefit .Have you seen double standard in your argument? Castration is O.K but killing is not.How many males on this earth will give consent to be castrated in trade of protection?

Well males do not make compliant domesticated animals. But as a male I can understand this so I will say this is probably not what I would ask for from a human caretaker. lol

I won't entertain anything off-topic of killing animals.

Again you are wrong all other usage also require animals to be killed.No economy on earth can take the load of useless domesticated animals. Cows are prime examples in India.They are not killed for meat but used for milk and as result millions of surplus useless cows.

Kdsji , that's a big issue I agree with. Reduction in milk producing cows would be a good idea.

These cows are burden on economy ,menace to people and results in illegal cow trade to Bangladesh by smugglers which also gives these cows inhumane sufferings .People just please their mind that they are not killing cows, but by hook or crook they just want to get rid of them.The only solution is to kill these cows in humane way.there is no other solution

Yeah it's horrible. Immense amounts of suffering is created for the animal and ourselves. The solution is not to kill them but have less being born, to a number that is manageable.

Again double standard.You called milk, wool , eggs as trade but for meat you mentioned factory farming .Why not make against factory farming for all these

No I mentioned factory farming as a problematic practice something stemming from the world view that sees humans as the controllers of nature. I think factory farming animals for anything whether milk, wool or eggs is problematic.

If I may also throw out a solution to these issues. The reason why we have more cows than necessary, factory farming, etc is also because of our own population, 7 Billion folks. We need more resources to support it, moe cows, more factories, etc. This number will double in the next 5 decades. We will than have a lot more problems than factory farming and a surplus of useless cows. We will run out of fossil fuels, coal, space to live, more pollution... the solution to many of these problems is controlling our own birth rate.

I still maintain it is morally wrong to kill a conscious being, whether it be a human or an animal. You did a good job of outlining the issues which don't have to do with killing but create suffering for the animal in other ways. I thank you for that.


---------------------

On your trade argument ,do you know 10 million male buffalo calves are intentionally killed by


farmers because they can't afford to feed milk to them.So now meat industry has approached
mother buffalo as she already trade milk and don't care whether her calf is killed or not ,that she can give her male calves to them and they will raise it for 12 months and then slaughter it lol lol lol lol

That is no laughing matter.
It stems from a worldview irreverent of nature, like I explained before. I disapprove of the modern USE of animals. I don't think they ought to be used at all. I hope that makes my position more clear. Seeing only the USE in something is harmful for our own mental health and health of other beings.

 

[kds1980]

Well males do not make compliant domesticated animals. But as a male I can understand this so I will say this is probably not what I would ask for from a human caretaker. lol

Well Aliens may take human males and force them lol

Kdsji , that's a big issue I agree with. Reduction in milk producing cows would be a good idea.
Yeah it's horrible. Immense amounts of suffering is created for the animal and ourselves. The solution is not to kill them but have less being born, to a number that is manageable.

That is not possible.A cow need to give birth to calf to produce milk .A cow may end up giving birth to 10 calves ,from which 8 survives .So population of cows keep increasing .If you give them birth control they will stop producing milk

No I mentioned factory farming as a problematic practice something stemming from the world view that sees humans as the controllers of nature. I think factory farming animals for anything whether milk, wool or eggs is problematic.

If I may also throw out a solution to these issues. The reason why we have more cows than necessary, factory farming, etc is also because of our own population, 7 Billion folks. We need more resources to support it, moe cows, more factories, etc. This number will double in the next 5 decades. We will than have a lot more problems than factory farming and a surplus of useless cows. We will run out of fossil fuels, coal, space to live, more pollution... the solution to many of these problems is controlling our own birth rate.

I still maintain it is morally wrong to kill a conscious being, whether it be a human or an animal. You did a good job of outlining the issues which don't have to do with killing but create suffering for the animal in other ways. I thank you for that.

7 billion? how much resources are consumed by developed countries? what is their population? Population do plays role but if human population is decreased and their lifestyle goes up then they do consume more resources .The other impractical solution is revert to old ages and live like them .Canada , Russia, Australia still have plenty of land .people can try give up their urban style and purchase small piece of land and do farming without giving animal suffering Good luck if anybody do this icecreammunda

 

[BhagatSingh]

Lol@ aliens. Singhs ain't gona let it happen!

You are right. Maybe we ought to stop drinking milk or eating yogurt and cheese. But I think more research is needed comparing birth and death rates. And seeing at what quantity of milk production can we ensure the least suffering etc. That is beyond the scope of this discussion or even any discussion of our level. That is the job of the government and scientists who study those fields.

Yeah high standard of living is actually more of the issue (*cough*western nations*cough*) than population but population feeds into it more than anything else. Listen to this comedy by Bill Burr. He is hilarious!

Now
Do you have anything to say on killing of animals on the dharam level?


Bill Burr - Animals, People, Population Control & Women - YouTube

 

[onkarsinghk]

First of all im a 25 year old MONA that eats meat, and my dad has been case dhari AMRIT vegetarian for 20 years, who KEEPS TELLING ME TO STOP MEAT.

So yeah I told my father about the FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH ARTICLE (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html) which basicly Proves that Meat is neither forbidden or recomended, and the same for Veg foods.

And my father got angry... and was hardly letting me finish sentences. Saying meat is wrong bla bla bla! It was like he was so fanatical about his current beleif, that I said to him i think you are getting angry (and also a victim of KROHD/rage) because you have thought your beleifs to be RIGHT for SO LONG (20 years) that if you find out otherwise now, your AHANKAAR does not want to risk any chance of believing it to be true.

He went further with scare mongering tactics like "You will see when you die and you are reincarnated as a animal etc".

Even when im telling him the quote from Nanak:
"The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat."

And he keeps trying to change the meaning of the quote to fit his agenda (convert me to vegetarism. Where as im saying that neither DIET is recommended in the GGSJ)

--
Also I WILL stop meat WHEN I WANT TO, and NOT because my DAD keeps telling me to, because of his silly history.

- For example when he was 24 years old (NON AMRIT) He slapped my mother for eating meat (BTW THEY BOTH ATE MEAT BEFORE THEY GOT MARRIED, BUT AFTER MY DAD TURNED RELIGOUS, AND THEN TRIED FORCING IT UPON MY MUM)
- He also started hitting my mum because she let her MUSLIM (non religious) friend in the house

BUT the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI promotes PEACE and LOVE to ALL the HUMAN RACE, not ignorent predujices like this (when the muslim friend wasnt even {censored}in religious)

ALSO GGSJ says:
"Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

So how can you treat a muslim with disrespect (falseness) when the MUSLIM is made from following the KORAN.
DAMN I HATE HYPOCREATES or HALF EDUCATED PEOPLE on SIKHI SHOVING THEIR BELIVES DOWN MY THROAT

Dear

Sikhism is not allowing killing living beings. Human being need to be kind towards living beings.

Kabir khoob kahana kheechri ja meh amrit loan, hera roti karanay gala katavay kaon.
Asankh gal vadh hatiya kamahe, asankh papi pap kar jahe.


We sometime say Halal not allowed but jhataka allowed, but murder happen in both ways. We should refrain from unnecessary wrong deeds. God has provided all for survival. In fact non veg is not allowed in gurdwaras also.

Human beings' normal tendency is that he want to do whatever he like. Religions have do's and don't. Drinkng is also one of it. Nihangs justify taking shardai and give quotes of past but I could not find respected gursikhs in my life saying in favour of killed meat.

Also try to see life style of those who practice religion rather than just preaching, do maximum jaap(gur satgur ka jo sikh akhhaye....). You will find maximum of those will not be taking non veg. By killing living being, we show others that afterall we don't mind killings.

Due to some natural cycle, we should not justify our intentional killings.



Regards

Onkar Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

is Slavery considered a "trade" ? Abraham Lincoln banned this..BUT the Slave owners did provide safe heaven.shelter, food, clothings etc to the slaves in return for labour...Even Today PUNJAB has thousands of such BANDHUS...slaves...