To What Degree Should You Believe In Mahapuresh? Or Should You Believe At All?

[susan]

I wanted to hear from anyone who has ever done Sangat or Sewa for a Mahapuresh ( Sant )
Are they truly what people claim or is it just wishful thinking.
I am truly confused,I could use some insight.

 

[sadhu]

originally posted by care for sikhi in another thread

A saint is in whose presence the formless descends and becomes a presence…through whom you can have a look at the ****hest star…through whom you can have a feeling of God himself…through whose words silence speaks, and through whose eyes the infinite peeks at you. And if you hold his hand, you will suddenly see: the hand is his, but not only his—God is holding your hand through him. \he is a vehicle, a bamboo flute on the lips of the infinite. He gives form to the formless, he is the embodiment of the formless.

You have to be very open and vulnerable, only then will you be able to feel a Master. Don’t go to a Master with a negative attitude, otherwise you will never reach him. The very negative attitude will not allow his vibe to reach you. The negative attitude will not allow you to move into the same wavelength in which he lives. Hence trust is needed. Hence love is needed. Otherwise you will go empty and you will come empty—and when you will come empty you will say, ‘This is not the real master. I went empty and I have come empty.’ If you are not open and the Master is not real, nothing will happen; and you will know it, and you will know it certainly, that this is not for you, that this is not he man you are seeking. But be open—because if you are open, only then can you know whether he is true or not. If you are closed, sooner or later you will become a victim of somebody who is a pseudo-Master-because pseudo-Masters try to convince you argumentatively.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/125-who-is-a-saint-or-master.html

The real Masters are very paradoxical, very contradictory. They are as contradictory as life itself, because they embody life. They are the inconsistent as God himself, because they embody god. They are not logical, they are very illogical—because they are super-logical, because they are bringing something which cannot be grasped thru logic.

In the closeness of a real Master you will feel you are closed to an abyss…but if you open--only then. If you are not open, you will become a victim to some pseudo-person who can convince you, who can talk you in, who can seduce you in. For example, if you are greedy he will talk about greed. He will tell you how much you are going to gain out of meditation, the prayer. He will persuade your greed, how much you are going to have in heaven if you follow him. He will promise you much. A true Master never promises anything. In fact he shatters you completely—your greed, your desire, you idea of becoming somebody, being somebody—he shatters all in all. A real master is a rock against which your boat is completely shattered…your whole mind is shattered. He drives you crazy; he does not argue. His argument is more of him being than his words.

But we are greedy. We live through greed, we are afraid, full of fear—somebody gives us consolation, we become victims. A real Master is not a consolation, he is not a solace. He is, in fact, death to you. He kills you, he destroys you, he is very destructive…but creativity is possible only when the old is destroyed. When the old ceases to be, the new can enter in.

I have heard a beautiful anecdote. Meditate over it….

The letter from Sean to his old, old mother was heartening.
‘Dear mother,’ he wrote, ‘I am sending you some pills that a witch doctor gave me an dif you take one, it will take years of your life.’
He came home a few weeks later and there was a beautiful young woman outside his house rocking a pram in which a baby lay sucking a bottle.
‘Where’s my mother?’ he asked
‘Arrah, don’t be silly,’ she said. ‘I’m you mother and these pills were marvelous.’
‘Imagine!’ said Sean. ‘One pill, and you are as beautiful as anyone could be—and what’s more, you were able to have a baby. Lord, but they were powerful!’
‘You madman!’ she cried. ‘That’s not a baby, that’s your father. He took two;’

Avoid greed—otherwise you will take two pills. And there are many people who are selling things like that. Witch doctors….

A Master is not here to fulfill your greed, he is here to destroy your greed. Because once greed is destroyed, you become available to yourself. If you are greedy you are n3ever available to yourself. Greed becomes desire, desire becomes projection in the future. And you are always wandering somewhere in the future; you are never here now. Greed takes you away from yourself: greed has to be destroyed.

A Master never promises you anything—but only in the presence of a Master something becomes possible he will not tell you: ‘I will take death away from you’, or ‘You will become immortal’. He is not giving you nectar, elixir, ambrosia. Of course, being with a Master one become immortal—but not that he makes you immortal. He simply takes you deep into the existence of death.

Just look at it: He takes you deep into the experience of death. That is what deep meditation is all about—a death experience. And when you have known your death, watched it, suddenly you realized you are separate from it. It happens, but it never happens to you. It happens on the periphery, it never reaches to the center. It happens to the body, it never happens to you And the body is nothing but your abode. You have changed many bodies, and you will change many more—but you are immortal. But a real Master does not promise it. He delivers it one day, but there is no promise for it. If you are seeking one state where fear will dissolve, some state where your greed will be fulfilled, some state where you will be titillated constantly with pleasure, paradise, then you are bound to become a victim of some pseudo-person.
When you come to a living Saint/Master, deep down something in you wants to bow down. It is not that you are going to do a certain formality—if you are doing , it is meaningless. But something really down in your spirit, deep in your spirit, deep in your center, wants to bow down. The bowing to a Master is no more ritualistic. It is alive, it is meaningful, it is not an empty gesture. But you can just go on bowing down to anybody, because you have been taught to bow down—then it is useless. Try to see the difference. When something is born into you out of of your spontaneity, then it is true. When you have to do something as a duty, it is untrue. ‘Duty’ is a dirty word. If something is born out of love, good. If something is born out of duty, avoid it, never do it—because that is dangerous. If you learn the ways of duty too much, you will forget they ways of love. Duty is against love. Duty is false substitute for love.

 

[susan]

Thank you Sadhu Ji
You pretty much summed up what I am suffering right now. I have been blessed to the point where I have done Sangat and Sewa for a Mahapuresh. I feel I am being mentally destroyed right now so much so that I do not want to associate with this Mahapuresh anymore. I do not understand him or what is happening to me.
Do I continue this path or do I just let it go?

 

[spnadmin]

susan ji

You are asking the question, Should you continue the path or let it go? You say you are feeling mentally destroyed?

Does this feel like death of your ego into a more blissful state of consciousness? Or does it feel like death of your ego for the benefit of another human being?

How much bliss do you feel? Can you describe your progression of spiritual development to have been hard early in your practice and getting to the point where you are more at ease with yourself and at ease within yourself? Or are you miserable?

Consider yourself fortunate if you can admit to being miserable. It means that you can still make independent judgments about your subjective experiences and are not yet a robot. Just a few questions and issues for you to ponder.

 

[sadhu]

susan

You pretty much summed up what I am suffering right now. I have been blessed to the point where I have done Sangat and Sewa for a Mahapuresh. I feel I am being mentally destroyed right now so much so that I do not want to associate with this Mahapuresh anymore. I do not understand him or what is happening to me.
Do I continue this path or do I just let it go?

On one side you say that you are blessed, on another side you say that you dont want to associate with your mahapurush. Both cannot happen at the same time, because if you feel blessed, if you feel lucky, if you feel the god flowing through that mahapurush, then you cannot say that you dont want to associate with him. Then you cannot say that you are confused.

Please tell us more clearly what do you mean, when you say that you dont understand your mahapurush.
Because i have never met him, i dont know him, i cannot say anything "for" or "against" your guru.

All i can say is that if one has a real thirst to taste the eternal, then his thirst will definitely take him to someone who is overflowing with the divine. True thirst can never be satiated by any false guru, because it is real. A real thirst can only be satiated by a real guru.
Yes, if the thirst is false, if the thirst is just on the surface of your intellect, if it is just a ripple in your consciousness, then many false gurus can make you satisfied with their words. But if the thirst is real, words wont satisfy you, concepts about god wont fullfill you, then it will be a do or die situation for you, and in such a situation you can never be tricked by a false guru. Because a false guru cannot satisfy a real thirst.
See if you are really thirsty for water, then you will never be satisfied by someone who does not have water in the first place, in his pitcher. Then You will definitely find someone, whose pitcher overflowing with water. Your very thirst will make you reach near that person. Your thirst wont let you rest, until you find water.

Can you name your mahapurush,or can you putt his picture here???

 

[Harpreet_Singh_]

susan ji

You are asking the question, Should you continue the path or let it go? You say you are feeling mentally destroyed?

Does this feel like death of your ego into a more blissful state of consciousness? Or does it feel like death of your ego for the benefit of another human being?

How much bliss do you feel? Can you describe your progression of spiritual development to have been hard early in your practice and getting to the point where you are more at ease with yourself and at ease within yourself? Or are you miserable?

Consider yourself fortunate if you can admit to being miserable. It means that you can still make independent judgments about your subjective experiences and are not yet a robot. Just a few questions and issues for you to ponder.

Excellent, aadji.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

sadhu ji..
what good is his picture..or name...that would be idol worship ?/ no ??
It could be the same Guru and his wife living in the Himalayas...( in another thread )..who opens dasam duars in an instant...does his pic exist ?? just wondering...MY MAHANPURASH is the Only PURAKH in Japjhi sahib..AKAL PURAKH...visible through the Gurbani of SGGS...and He is FORMLESS and no pics exist:happy:

 

[sadhu]

gyani ji

It could be the same Guru and his wife living in the Himalayas...( in another thread )..who opens dasam duars in an instant...does his pic exist ??

May be... hehe

But just wondering, did you experience your mahapurukh, or your akal purukh?

 

[spnadmin]

This is not a joking matter -- and it is another occasion for a warning for you. Please go go back and read the terms of service sahdu ji.

Reminder

Guidelines for Comparative Studies:

Whilst SPN encourages positive interfaith dialogue and exercises in comparative religion, we do not accept direct or indirect attacks on the individuality of Sikhism. Any posts deemed to be doing so will be removed from the forum without notice.

The Guru Granth Sahib is the ultimate authority of the Sikhs. Any abuse or disrespect towards it in any form – directly or implied, will not be tolerated. Ridicule of the Sikh Religion, Sikh Scriptures, 5Ks or of the Khalsa will not be allowed and removed from forums without notice.

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[susan]

I appreciate everyone's comments. Before I met this Mahapuresh (whom I prefer not to mention) I never woke up in the morning or went to bed thinking of the Almighty. Now I have such a thirst for it that I can't live without it. Perhaps like aad002 Ji mentioned I am having a breakdown of my ego. Some days I feel I don't need him for anything then I find myself running after him on my worst days.
Sorry if I am not expressing myself in enough detail,but alot of what I feel I can't explain in words. And Sadhu Ji thank you for making me realize that the thirst I have my Mahapuresh does quench. My ego gets in my way alot of times. I am very vulnerable when it comes to him,this I am not used to because generally in life I am not. So I guess I am fighting an unbeatable battle.

 

[sadhu]

susan...

No doubt the path is hard, but when you will reach your destination, you will never regret your desicion of walking this hard path. Its not easy to walk on this path, and it is good that it is hard. Because "Easy things come easy and they go easy,"...
To attain god cannot be easy, it cannot be a cheap affair, because it is the ultimate attainment. Nothing is left out after this. Every thing is attained after this, because everything exists in god.

Now dont rest untill you attain.

 

[spnadmin]

forum members, all respected,

I am moving this thread to Interfaith Dialogs because it is not really about Sikhs, Sikhi, Sikhism. Thank you for your patience.

 

[susan]

You are totally right. I have received this advice before that it's not easy to reach God. You have to get through the storm before the calm. I guess it's easier to just give up. But now i know I can't. Thank you Sadhu Ji.
This really is just the beginning for me,who knows what else life will bring my way. Each event God brings to me I should embraced and be grateful.This is a test of my faith, is how I should look at it.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Sabd Guru on Saint;

While you may not always get what you want, you will always get what you expect! Surprisingly, the power of belief and expectation work just as effectively on your feelings of self-doubt and limitation as they do on your thoughts of success and achievement. Think thoughts of defeat or failure and you are bound to be discouraged;

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੈ ਕਪਟੁ ਵਸੈ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਕਹਾਹਿ ॥ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਅੰਤਿ ਗਏ ਪਛੁਤਾਹਿ ॥ ਅਨੇਕ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਜਤਨ ਕਰੈ ਤਾ ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ਜਿਸੁ ਨਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਈ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਂ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੈ ਸੋਈ ॥

Hirḏai jinĥ kai kapat vasai bāhrahu sanṯ kahāhi. Ŧarisnā mūl na cẖuk¬ī anṯ ga¬ė pacẖẖuṯāhi. Anėk ṯirath jė jaṯan karai ṯā anṯar kī ha¬umai kaḏė na jā¬ė. Jis nar kī ḏubiḏẖā na jā¬ė ḏẖaram rā¬ė ṯis ḏė¬ė sajā¬ė. Karam hovai so¬ī jan pā¬ė gurmukẖ būjẖai ko¬ī. Nānak vicẖahu ha¬umai mārė ṯāʼn har bẖėtai so¬ī.

Those whose hearts are filled with hypocrisy, who are called saints only for their outward show - their desires are never satisfied, and they depart grieving in the end. Although one may bathe at many places of pilgrimage, still, his ego never departs. That man, whose sense of duality does not depart - the Righteous Judge shall punish him. That humble being, unto whom God showers Its Mercy, obtains It; how few are the Guru willed who understand Akal Purkh. O Nanak, if one conquers his ego within, then he comes to meet the Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 491

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਤੁਟੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨ ਭਰਮਾ ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਇਆਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੰਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜਨੁ ਸੋਈ ॥

Jab lag ṯutai nāhī man bẖarmā ṯab lag mukaṯ na ko¬ī. Kaho Nānak ḏa¬i¬āl su¬āmī sanṯ bẖagaṯ jan so¬ī.

As long as the doubts of the mind are not removed, liberation is not found. Says Nanak, he alone is a Saint, a devotee, and a humble servant of the Akal Purkh, to whom the Akal Purkh is merciful. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 680-5

A saint is known by his humility, ethics, actions and qualities not by his religious dress or form. He has subjugated his lower instincts, developed virtues, and remembers God in thought, spirit word and deed. He is unattached and has conquered three qualities of Maya and accepts God’s Will and is above empty rituals. He sees every one with one eye, sees God in all. Guru Arhan in Raag Asa;

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੀਠਾ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੇ ਸਭ ਕੀ ਪਗ ਛਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੰਤ ਰਹਤ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਉਆ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਘ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੁਖ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਨ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥ ਸੂਰਬੀਰ ਬਚਨ ਕੇ ਬਲੀ ॥ ਕਉਲਾ ਬਪੁਰੀ ਸੰਤੀ ਛਲੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਬਾਛਹਿ ਸੁਰਦੇਵ ॥ ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸੁ ਸਫਲ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥ ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ਮੋਹਿ ਸੰਤਹ ਟਹਲ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਣਤਾਸਿ ॥

Āṯẖ pahar nikat kar jānai. Parabẖ kā kī▫ā mīṯẖā mānai. Ėk nām sanṯan āḏẖār. Ho▫e rahe sabẖ kī pag cẖẖār. Sanṯ rahaṯ sunhu mere bẖā▫ī. U▫ā kī mahimā kathan na jā▫ī. varṯaṇ jā kai keval nām. Anaḏ rūp kīrṯan bisrām. Miṯar saṯar jā kai ek samānai Parabẖ apune bin avar na jānai. Kot kot agẖ kataṇhārā. Ḏukẖ ḏūr karan jī▫a ke ḏāṯārā. Sūrbīr bacẖan ke balī. Ka▫ulā bapurī sanṯī cẖẖalī. Ŧā kā sang bācẖẖėh surḏev. Amogẖ ḏaras safal jā kī sev. Kar joṛ Nānak kare arḏās. Mohi sanṯėh tahal ḏījai guṇṯās

Twenty-four hours a day, he knows the Akal Purkh to be near at hand; he surrenders to the Sweet Will of God. The One Name is the Support of the Saints; they remain the dust of the feet of all. Listen, to the way of life of the Saints, O my Siblings of Destiny; their praises cannot be described. Their occupation is the Name of the Akal Purkh. The Praise of the God, the embodiment of bliss, is their rest. Friends and enemies are one and the same to them. They know of no other than God. They erase millions upon millions of sins. They dispel suffering; they are givers of the life of the soul. They are so brave; they are men of their word. The Saints have enticed Maya herself. Their company is cherished even by the gods and the angels. Blessed is their Darshan, and fruitful is their service. With his palms pressed together, Nanak offers his prayer: O Akal Purkh, Treasure of Excellence, please bless me with the service of the Saints.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI

 

[susan]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge VSgrewal48895. I have alot to learn.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

You are Welcome Susan

Virinder

 

[seeker3k]

Dear Susan ji,

The question is who is Mahapursh? Is he the one that many people of the public say he is mahapursh? If one need seva from his disciples then he is not mahapurh, he only a pursh. Be aware of him. As it state over and over in GGS and so many other holy books that the answer to one’s questions are inside not out side. There is no book Idol or a person that can give you the peace or the answers. Ultimately it will be you who have to go in side and find the answers and be at peach. We huams feel good to do the seva and worship that mahapush will have blessing on us. That is totally wrong. There are many cheets out there pretending to be mahapursh. In the end they will deceive you and leave you all broken up. As in my experience all so called mahapursh will not anser your question. They will talk in round about way. If one insist they will say they do not argue about about the faith. If any mahapush ask you to keep coming to their ashram that will be the sign that he is fake. Real Mahapush will don’t want to keep coming to him. By going to his ashram we are contributing to his popularity. That way many other will be attracted to him just because they can see he have 1000s followers, there fore her must be real mahapursh. If mahapursh will not talk one on one then he is not worth it.

As for the reply to vsgrewl.
He claim that there are very few who can know akal purkh, what he is saying is that there are mahapursh out there. According to the bani in GGS. Now the question is how can be know who is and who is not. This is where LOGIC comes in. Read in GGS and other holy books. And use your logic. As bani says over and over do not believe blindly.
Seeker3k@gmail.com

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

When we go to SCHOOL...the teachers TEACH US.
Then we GO OUT..and NEVER RETURN ( back to School that is..)
Which "TEACHER" wants his students to keep on returning... (and paying him fees ??)The FAKE one.

Successful "TEACHERS"..make "SUCCESSFUL STUDENTS"....
SGGS is the One and ONLY SUCCESSFUL MAHAPURSH. no other needed.....except for weak students..who take extra "tuition"...but then these too PASS and move on...IF you cant pass/move on..and the mahanpursh wants you by his side..make your own conclusion...either he is wanting..or you are ??
THe GREATEST NUMBER OF MAHANPURASH ever in one place is in the SGGS. Learn from their experiences of meeting AKAL PURAKH...once you have an ENCYCLOPEDIA...who needs a simple "primer" ABC - A for Apple !!:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice::ice:

 

[spnadmin]

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