Gurus The Gurus' Wives?

[spnadmin]

JimRinX ji

Mennonites are cool people. You know that Amish people fall into that lineage of faith, however the Amish are extremely orthodox and literal in their interpretation of the Bible. At one point a group of Mennonites broke out to form the modern congregations. Today they occupy a spectrum in terms of how "plain" or "fancy" they may be. However, their message is one of advocacy for the downtrodden and they work diligently to improve the lot of people who live in the poorest areas, city and countryside. Yes, you are right. They preach kindness and service. I really do not know very much about their religious beliefs, but do know they are social activists and find their own bliss in doing for others.

 

[Randip Singh]

Randip ji
Yes, you are quite right; a Sikh, or any other believer/adherent to the concepts ('Laws'?) of Dharma and Karma, is; if they are true to themselves, and therefore to others; always going to be a self-less person, concerned more with the wellbeing of others, than that of themselves; as WE know that if everyone practices these beliefs with equal fervor, no one will want for anything - all will know peace and harmoniousness.
I was in no way implying that a Sikh - Gurus Wife, or humble cobbler - would 'seek' Mukhti; that's why I appologized for being so immodest as to even mention the idea that I might have been fortunate (and cursed!) enough to have done so (I only say what I do to try and help others; not to 'brag', as spometimes they ask, you know); I just think that a Guru would have a Happier and more fulfilling marriage, if his Wife had achieved that level of enlightenment!
See? I was just being compassionate! I wouldn't want to see an unhappily married Guru, after all!
Narayanjot ji
I know what you're saying! That's because I've not only been reading what you quote me, but also because I read 'An Introduction to Sikhism', and was very, very impressed by the Beauty of it all.
It's odd, you know; I was just waiting in line to eat at a kind of Baptist Gurdwara, and there was a guy SHOUTING 'Fire and Brimstone' - then he began to eulogize about how those who don't want to tick off Jesus NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE!
On the other hand, I know a Mennonite Pastor who is just the opposite; and he likes to make jokes about people like the 'shouter', and how they've strayed from the path.
I told him that theres 'reincarnation' in John 3:1-16; for though most Christians only focus on the last bit - the "He whosoever believeth in Me, will (go to Heaven) - the previous bits certainly sound like an explaination of Birth, in Water (repeatedly, even), followed - if you've achieved an ambiguous sounding goal (WE know what THAT is) - by 'Birth, in Spirit'.
I may 'convert' (their biggest fear!) them yet!
Yes, yes, WE do have a point; those of us whose beliefs are derived from the Dharma!

According to science we are reincarnated whether we like it or not. Our molecules will go on to form something else. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but simply changes form.

As for Karma, that is simply Newtons Law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I wasn't thinking you implied anything about the Guru's wife, I was merely asking the question whether it matters whether the Guru's wife achieved Mukhti? For a lot of us we wander through life alone and when we meet the right person we feel complete. It feels like we have achieved Mukhti? Maybe that was the case for the Guru's.

Maybe that is why Guru Nanak placed so much emphasis on the life of a householder? Maybe that is what makes us complete?

Any views?

 

[JimRinX]

Randip ji
Many views! Firstly; I did not think you were criticising me - though I did think that Roger ji was taking some heat, so I was coming to his defense; as I, like many people from less wealthy parts of the world, think the whole 'mail order bride' thing is wrong, and I thought he'd 'touched a nerve'.
Next: You sound JUST LIKE ME! Applying Newtons Laws - or, in my case, Maxwells Thermodynamics, to the concepts of Karma and Reincarnation! I've always said that the Samsara Realm (that of Physical Form - or, the 'Birth, in Water' - versus the 'Birth, in Spirit' {once we've achieved True Enlightenment'}, to quote John 3:something or the other) is a 'Bi-Polar Array'; and I've always argued with Atheist Scientists Types that The Soul, The Clear Light, The (fill in the blank) is no more unlikely, just because it cannot be seen or meassured, than is the fact that I cannot 'see' the force that prevents me from 'seeing' the electromagnetic force field that prevents me from forcing the North Poles of two magnets together; as it is also this very same force that prevents my fingers, which are mostly nothingness, from passing right through this keyboard!
As far as the Gurus Wife, it's as I said; could any Husband and Wife truly be 'soul mates' if they were not 'like souls'?
I do, if only because I'm getting older, and have been being kept out of the dating scene (due to the Pill that I was forced to go back on, after quiting them to switch to bhang - for my Chronic Pain), also think that we are not, as you say, "complete" without that special someone in our lives! Gurus, too!
I hope this stirs some thought!
Best regards, JimRinX!

 

[roab1]

Yes they were mukt. All Sikhs were mukt. Khalsa is not only mukt from jeevan but 'karma' too. Theory of Karma does not affect Khalsa and Khalsa does not have to account for his/her life on earth. or actions. However keep in mind in present times all Sikhs/Khalsa are not jeevan mukt, and there is no way to know who is Khalsa. I would say every Sikh before upto Banda Bahadur execution is mukt. I might be wrong and there is no way to know the actual number. In present times only a few sikhs would be mukt but you can never know really. And it does not matter. Another Sikh being mukt or not mukt doesnt help your case or jeevan. And besides Guru Granth Sahib has no wife so i wouldnt worry much as i am not living in times of Ten gurus. We are celebrating 40 days recitation of Gurbani in honour of '40 Mukte' of 'Muktsar'. Lets hope i get mukt too, but you will never know, or anybody else, so should it matter?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Re: JEEWAK MUKATi Mr ROGER
Pl Accept my Divine Greetings,
Going thru various interesting postings on the subject I would like to share my views as under
As a matter of fact JEEWAN MUKATi and MOKSHA ,these are to different states.JEEWAN MUKATi is not a state of liberation from the cycle of Births whereas MOKSHA referes to the state of liberation from the Birth cycles.
In Sikh Philosophy JEEWAN MUKATi is state wherein a person remains detatched from the effects of wordly affairs and the conditions of being JEEWANMUKATi are well stated in the following quotes of Gurbaani
QUOTE 1
"PRABH KI AGAYA ATAM HITAWE<JEEWAN KUKATi SOU KAHAWE
TAESAA HARAKHu TAESAA USu SOGu,SADA ANANDuTAH NAHI BIOGu
TAESAA SWARANu TAESI USu MAATI,TAESA AMRITu TAESI BIKHu KHAATI
TAESAA MAANu TAESAA ABHIMAANu,TAESAA RANKu TAESAA RAAJAANu
JO WARTAE SAI JAGATi,NANAK UHu PURAKHu KAHIE JEEWAN MUKATi "pp275SGGSJi

QUOTE 2
"HARKHu SOGu JAA KAE NAHI BAEREE MEET SAMANi,
KAHu NANAK SUNi RE MANAA MUKATi TAHi TAE JAANi pp1427 SGGSJi
{The English words have been written as per Gurmukhi script of SGGS Ji}

Now there may be many persons to have attained the above state by the GRACE of SATiGURU Ji.
In view of above consideration it is obvios that the wives of our GURs must have attained the above state and this has been demostrated by them in period of their times

Thus the STATE of JEEWAN MUKATi is not the heighest State in SIKHi.The heighest state in Sikhi is to remain to be connected with SATi GURU all the times. In this respect the view of ARVIND SINGH Ji is fully appreciated.

Now coming to the State of MOKSHA,it is rarest of the rarest phenomenon and this can
happen with any being other than Human being,.Whereas JEEWAN MUKATi is State related to Human beings only
With Regards
Prakas S Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

Now coming to the State of MOKSHA,it is rarest of the rarest phenomenon and this can
happen with any being other than Human being,.Whereas JEEWAN MUKATi is State related to Human beings only
With Regards
Prakas S Bagga

Prakas S Bagga ji

This is a moderation question. Many argue that Moksha and mukhti are essentially the same thing, or 2 words that suggest the same thing - liberation. However you seem to be saying that moksha applies to the rare being, but not the human being; and mukhti applies only to human beings. Would you add to your explanation and elaborate to how they are different? Thank you.

And would you also post complete shabads in Gurmukhi and English with the Ang number so that other forum members can interact more with you.

 

[spnadmin]

I have posted one of the shabads accordingly for forum members. The shabad refers to prabh kee aagiaa aatham hitaavai, and it describes the detachment experienced by the jivan mukhta. In this shabad the jivan mukhta is not separated from God.

The shabad is from Sukhmani Sahib and is on Ang 275


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਆਤਮ ਹਿਤਾਵੈ ॥
prabh kee aagiaa aatham hithaavai ||
One who, in his soul, loves the Will of God,


ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਸੋਊ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
jeevan mukath sooo kehaavai ||
is said to be Jivan Mukta - liberated while yet alive.

ਤੈਸਾ ਹਰਖੁ ਤੈਸਾ ਉਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
thaisaa harakh thaisaa ous sog ||
As is joy, so is sorrow to him.

ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਤਹ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਓਗੁ ॥
sadhaa anandh theh nehee bioug ||
He is in eternal bliss, and is not separated from God.


ਤੈਸਾ ਸੁਵਰਨੁ ਤੈਸੀ ਉਸੁ ਮਾਟੀ ॥
thaisaa suvaran thaisee ous maattee ||
As is gold, so is dust to him.


ਤੈਸਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤੈਸੀ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਟੀ ॥
thaisaa anmrith thaisee bikh khaattee ||
As is ambrosial nectar, so is bitter poison to him.


ਤੈਸਾ ਮਾਨੁ ਤੈਸਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
thaisaa maan thaisaa abhimaan ||
As is honor, so is dishonor.


ਤੈਸਾ ਰੰਕੁ ਤੈਸਾ ਰਾਜਾਨੁ ॥
thaisaa rank thaisaa raajaan ||
As is the beggar, so is the king.


ਜੋ ਵਰਤਾਏ ਸਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥
jo varathaaeae saaee jugath ||
Whatever God ordains, that is his way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੭॥
naanak ouhu purakh keheeai jeevan mukath ||7||
O Nanak, that being is known as Jivan Mukta. ||7||

The aunkar in the transliteration is missing from the copy. If you so wish I will dutifully put them in one by one.

 

[spnadmin]

The second is on Ang 1427 and is by Guru Teg Bahadur ji.. I have copied the saloka in question from a longer passage by Guruji.



ਹਰਖੁ ਸੋਗੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਨਹੀ ਬੈਰੀ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥
harakh sog jaa kai nehee bairee meeth samaan ||
One who is not affected by pleasure or pain, who looks upon friend and enemy alike


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਤੈ ਜਾਨਿ ॥੧੫॥
kahu naanak sun rae manaa mukath thaahi thai jaan ||15||
- says Nanak, listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated. ||15||


Saloka 29 is also interesting in the context of the discussion


ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਭਜੈ ਰੂਪ ਰਾਮ ਤਿਹ ਜਾਨੁ ॥
jo praanee nis dhin bhajai roop raam thih jaan ||
That mortal who meditates and vibrates upon the Lord night and day - know him to be the embodiment of the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੀ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੨੯॥
har jan har anthar nehee naanak saachee maan ||29||
There is no difference between the Lord and the humble servant of the Lord; O Nanak, know this as true. ||29||