BlazinSikh
SPNer
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
Personally it is in no one's right to decide who dies or live, this is all under Waheguru hukam, on what happens. If someone was meant to die then they would die, if someone was meant to live then they would live. My personal view is if someone commits a disgusting crime, which makes one feel that death should be the punishment, i would say NO! reason for this is:
1) My believe is no one has the right to decide who is to die and live, except Waheguru Ji.
2) I believe death is a easy way out of anything, the person who commits a crime would have not learned anything, or the crime they have committed.
3) Just as Waheguru Ji has mercy upon us, we should should also show mercy upon others, a person especially a Sikh/human who carries anger/wrath is not really a Sikh/human.
4) The greatest punishment to give to anyone is to remove all freedom, when they have no freedom they will suffer from within.
These are just my view...
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
Personally it is in no one's right to decide who dies or live, this is all under Waheguru hukam, on what happens. If someone was meant to die then they would die, if someone was meant to live then they would live. My personal view is if someone commits a disgusting crime, which makes one feel that death should be the punishment, i would say NO! reason for this is:
1) My believe is no one has the right to decide who is to die and live, except Waheguru Ji.
2) I believe death is a easy way out of anything, the person who commits a crime would have not learned anything, or the crime they have committed.
3) Just as Waheguru Ji has mercy upon us, we should should also show mercy upon others, a person especially a Sikh/human who carries anger/wrath is not really a Sikh/human.
4) The greatest punishment to give to anyone is to remove all freedom, when they have no freedom they will suffer from within.
These are just my view...
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
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Majority of sikhs demand death penalty for 1984 culprits.
BlazinSikh
SPNer
That is true, even though I would never know the pain of the victims of 1984, I still believe fightin' fire with fire will do nothing but cause a bigger fire.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
Personally I am very much against of death penalty.We are not the one who can decide who can live or have to die (who are we, same as other ) .What if today someone is hanged or something but if tomorrow we got to know that person was innocent THEN WHAT. Can we bring the person back? No. Then how we can allowed to kill someone. Person who are judges they are not God, they can be in pressure or something-2-2-2-2, then how is their decisions can be right or fair.
Second thing if anyone does the crime then death penalty is very easy way for them to escape, let them suffer so much so each moment can remind them what they have done.
Second thing if anyone does the crime then death penalty is very easy way for them to escape, let them suffer so much so each moment can remind them what they have done.
I have mixed views on this matter !
As a sikh, I know that forgiving, encouraging, rehabilitation..etc.. is more of the attitude compared to a straight death penalty.
If Only my sikhi was the determining and deciding factor in handing out punishments, then the death penalty wouldn't be on the list!!
However, if I let my emotions do the deciding then I end up doing a U-Turn!
As a person and knowing that there are some very nasty people out there that I just could not forgive, then I would 'demand' death !!
I know it sounds harsh, but it's a harsh reaction for a harsh crime.
Let's say, the recent saudi who raped and killed his little 5 year old !!
If I were a judge, how could I send him for rehabilitation ?
what if I were the judge for Saddam or Osama ??
My only option would be to kill them myself or get them killed !!
I'm sorry if I offended, but certain peoples action make it difficult to know that you have let them live on and continue living.
As a sikh, I know that forgiving, encouraging, rehabilitation..etc.. is more of the attitude compared to a straight death penalty.
If Only my sikhi was the determining and deciding factor in handing out punishments, then the death penalty wouldn't be on the list!!
However, if I let my emotions do the deciding then I end up doing a U-Turn!
As a person and knowing that there are some very nasty people out there that I just could not forgive, then I would 'demand' death !!
I know it sounds harsh, but it's a harsh reaction for a harsh crime.
Let's say, the recent saudi who raped and killed his little 5 year old !!
If I were a judge, how could I send him for rehabilitation ?
what if I were the judge for Saddam or Osama ??
My only option would be to kill them myself or get them killed !!
I'm sorry if I offended, but certain peoples action make it difficult to know that you have let them live on and continue living.
Awakeand Singh
SPNer
- Jan 9, 2012
- 78
- 107
Indeed, the killing of Indira Gandhi caused a much bigger fire, the effects of which are still being suffered. For those who were in favor of the assassination, do you think it was justified by the organized pogroms which followed, and their resultant toll of death and injury?
I agree that the rehabilitation of the murderer is the preferred course of action. But, is this always practical? We speak of death being an easy way out, and letting the person live and suffer instead. Who says he/she will be remorseful? Many people serve long prison terms for murder and have no regret at all for their actions - even many years afterward. prison, as it exists today in most places, not only fails to rehabilitate the criminal, but more often teaches him/her new criminal skills - confirming and further strengthening the criminal identity.
We say that human beings have no right to judge others nor take the lives of others. By extension this should also include the murderer! Can it not be argued that one who pre-meditatively takes the life of another has forfeited his/her right to life as well?
I'm not proposing solutions of my own; merely widening a question that has been with us since forever, and contains many, many facets and ramifications.
aristotle
SPNer
Death penalty is direct barbarism. Moreover, if you go through the people administered death penalty in India, you would perhaps think it is only the Sikhs, Muslims and Christians who perform heinous crimes..
Let me give you a couple of examples...
*Sikh Genocide 1984: Sentenced to death on seven counts, mass murderer Kishori Lal’s released cleared by Indian State
(Feb 13 2012)
Kishori Lal, a former butcher who stayed in east Delhi’s Trilokpuri, had been accused of killing victims in the neighborhood. He had been sentenced to death seven times by the lower courts. The Supreme Court, later, commuted them to life terms. Kishori Lal was among 25 people, convicted by city courts for offences connected to the 1984 genocidal violence against the Sikhs.
To a large extent persons responsible for brutally murdering and burning Sikh alive, have enjoyed impunity, and there were just few exceptional counts of convictions, such as that of Kishori Lal.
As per news reports dated February 12, 2012, acting on the recommendations of the state Sentence Review Board (SRB), Lieutenant-Governor of Delhi (L-G) Tejinder Khanna recently commuted the sentence of Kishori Lal and 14 other life convicts to give them a chance to “reform and rehabilitate themselves”.
(Source: http://www.sikhsiyasat.net/2012/02/13/kishori-lal-set-to-be-released/)
* Indira Gandhi Killers To Be Hanged Friday
(December 01, 1988)
Two Sikhs condemned to death in the assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi will be hanged Friday, Indian officials said here tonight.
The decision follows the rejection of their motions for clemency by President Ramaswami Venkataraman and his dimissal of further appeals on their behalf by their attorneys last week.
------
Vrinda Grover, a lawyer and womens' activist recently said, " Men from minority communities make up a disproportionate number of death row inmates. In the Indian context, a review of crime that warrants capital punishment reveals the discriminatory way in which such laws are selectively and arbitrarily applied to disadvantaged communities, religious and ethnic minorities." (Source: http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...lty-is-a-deterrent-to-rape/article4236020.ece)
Let me give you a couple of examples...
*Sikh Genocide 1984: Sentenced to death on seven counts, mass murderer Kishori Lal’s released cleared by Indian State
(Feb 13 2012)
Kishori Lal, a former butcher who stayed in east Delhi’s Trilokpuri, had been accused of killing victims in the neighborhood. He had been sentenced to death seven times by the lower courts. The Supreme Court, later, commuted them to life terms. Kishori Lal was among 25 people, convicted by city courts for offences connected to the 1984 genocidal violence against the Sikhs.
To a large extent persons responsible for brutally murdering and burning Sikh alive, have enjoyed impunity, and there were just few exceptional counts of convictions, such as that of Kishori Lal.
As per news reports dated February 12, 2012, acting on the recommendations of the state Sentence Review Board (SRB), Lieutenant-Governor of Delhi (L-G) Tejinder Khanna recently commuted the sentence of Kishori Lal and 14 other life convicts to give them a chance to “reform and rehabilitate themselves”.
(Source: http://www.sikhsiyasat.net/2012/02/13/kishori-lal-set-to-be-released/)
* Indira Gandhi Killers To Be Hanged Friday
(December 01, 1988)
Two Sikhs condemned to death in the assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi will be hanged Friday, Indian officials said here tonight.
The decision follows the rejection of their motions for clemency by President Ramaswami Venkataraman and his dimissal of further appeals on their behalf by their attorneys last week.
------
Vrinda Grover, a lawyer and womens' activist recently said, " Men from minority communities make up a disproportionate number of death row inmates. In the Indian context, a review of crime that warrants capital punishment reveals the discriminatory way in which such laws are selectively and arbitrarily applied to disadvantaged communities, religious and ethnic minorities." (Source: http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...lty-is-a-deterrent-to-rape/article4236020.ece)
TigerStyleZ
SPNer
As a Sikh every Soul has deserved a second chance, but what is if the person killed another person, didn´t they knew what they did? I mean - behind every deed there is an thinking. And we Sikhs , are taught to draw the Sword if injusticed is done! All our Gurus ... look how they martyrd themselfs ! Until Guru Gobind SIngh ji , who himself created Khalsa... And how did we make justice? Fighting and killing... And here applies the same... the death penality is the same - the human who was unjust, unfair , should be taken justice from.
Furthermore , if you dont give death penality the culprit still is imprisoned for all his life - isnt that unjust as well?
Furthermore , if you dont give death penality the culprit still is imprisoned for all his life - isnt that unjust as well?
- Jan 31, 2011
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BlazinSikhji
Some thoughts
Waheguruji, in my opinion, has no interest in who lives or dies. This type of personalisation belongs to the Abramahic religions. Waheguruji, Creator, makes the rules, we play within them, death is all around us, Creation is constantly renewing, dying, being born.
I think the only reason for death is not to punish the criminal, but to remove them from society permanently in order to save innocent people from suffering.
Again, it is my belief that Creator shows no mercy, shows no favours, has no anger, no wrath, does not reward, does not punish. There must be laws, and those laws must be upheld without anger or wrath. A society that upholds its laws calmly and with grace to protect the innocent, the downtrodden, the raped, the killed, by removing criminals permanently, in my view, is fully within Sikhism.
Oh I disagree, a greater punishment would be to torture them daily. Again, in my view this is not about the greatest punishment, it is about the removal of criminals from society, permanently. It does not have to be linked with suffering, revenge, anger, it needs to be surgical, it needs to have a point greater than punishment.
However, the death of those that are innocent is a powerful argument against the death penalty, for that I can offer no response.
Some thoughts
Waheguruji, in my opinion, has no interest in who lives or dies. This type of personalisation belongs to the Abramahic religions. Waheguruji, Creator, makes the rules, we play within them, death is all around us, Creation is constantly renewing, dying, being born.
I think the only reason for death is not to punish the criminal, but to remove them from society permanently in order to save innocent people from suffering.
Again, it is my belief that Creator shows no mercy, shows no favours, has no anger, no wrath, does not reward, does not punish. There must be laws, and those laws must be upheld without anger or wrath. A society that upholds its laws calmly and with grace to protect the innocent, the downtrodden, the raped, the killed, by removing criminals permanently, in my view, is fully within Sikhism.
Oh I disagree, a greater punishment would be to torture them daily. Again, in my view this is not about the greatest punishment, it is about the removal of criminals from society, permanently. It does not have to be linked with suffering, revenge, anger, it needs to be surgical, it needs to have a point greater than punishment.
However, the death of those that are innocent is a powerful argument against the death penalty, for that I can offer no response.
SaintSoldier1699
SPNer
This is a tough one.
Having failed prison policies which do not reform prisoners is a missed opportunity to help those that want to help themselves to change for the better. I know of some new prisons run under private companies who are making a change in this area and have become successful in retraining and also, getting external employers to outsource their work to re-skilled prisoners.
Back in the day I read somewhere that prisoners were made to do infrastructure work ie build roads, rail tracks, buildings, mining etc so at least there is some payback to society rather than killing I guess.
One event in Sikh history that I have heard alternate stories on is in regards to when Guru Gobind Singh Ji removed the masand system. Did he really punish them to death? If so, then this shows the Guru was a supporter of the death penalty.
Another example, I also have heard people raising the point that during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule there were no death penalties? Then some call justice by killing is a puratan way of doing things?
Thoughts on these would be a great insight from those much wiser than me.
There just seems to be too much ying yang depending on what the current Sikh agenda is, ie in regards to Bhai Rajoana majority wanted to abolish the death penalty, then same people wanted death penalty for the Delhi rapists?
Having failed prison policies which do not reform prisoners is a missed opportunity to help those that want to help themselves to change for the better. I know of some new prisons run under private companies who are making a change in this area and have become successful in retraining and also, getting external employers to outsource their work to re-skilled prisoners.
Back in the day I read somewhere that prisoners were made to do infrastructure work ie build roads, rail tracks, buildings, mining etc so at least there is some payback to society rather than killing I guess.
One event in Sikh history that I have heard alternate stories on is in regards to when Guru Gobind Singh Ji removed the masand system. Did he really punish them to death? If so, then this shows the Guru was a supporter of the death penalty.
Another example, I also have heard people raising the point that during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule there were no death penalties? Then some call justice by killing is a puratan way of doing things?
Thoughts on these would be a great insight from those much wiser than me.
There just seems to be too much ying yang depending on what the current Sikh agenda is, ie in regards to Bhai Rajoana majority wanted to abolish the death penalty, then same people wanted death penalty for the Delhi rapists?
Awakeand Singh
SPNer
- Jan 9, 2012
- 78
- 107
For those who support the idea of lifetime prison sentences, is it fair to society to demand that they pay for the upkeep of a killer for as long as he/she will live?!
Yes, because it costs much less than the death penalty which requires many appeals. And more important, the guilty is reminded daily of his/ her atrocities.
Lastly, and the most important thing is that just in case the person is not-guilty and found so eventually with the help of new technology and DNA tests, we have saved one more life from going to the gallows for naught.
A true sikh gurmukh sees no difference in dukh and sukh. The gurmukh accepts them equally as dictated by his divine hukam.
However, If some psycho takes away the life of a close one, then this will leave me to endure the most painful dukh.
Most of us would demand life punishment or death sentence for this psycho in order that we may be able to handle this painful dukh.
But this is what differentiates me from the gurmukh that I should try and be, this lack of ability to eradicate duality enabling me to handle dukh and sukh on equal par !!
It's this weakness that is the reason that gives a strong desire for revenge and life/death punishment.
Just goes to show,that being a sikh is a lifetime of a challenge !
I can imagine that every time one feels that they may be closer to being gurmukh then the steps just get further away.
It gives the sikh something to live and aim for, otherwise what will one do once they have attained full gurmukh status ?
However, If some psycho takes away the life of a close one, then this will leave me to endure the most painful dukh.
Most of us would demand life punishment or death sentence for this psycho in order that we may be able to handle this painful dukh.
But this is what differentiates me from the gurmukh that I should try and be, this lack of ability to eradicate duality enabling me to handle dukh and sukh on equal par !!
It's this weakness that is the reason that gives a strong desire for revenge and life/death punishment.
Just goes to show,that being a sikh is a lifetime of a challenge !
I can imagine that every time one feels that they may be closer to being gurmukh then the steps just get further away.
It gives the sikh something to live and aim for, otherwise what will one do once they have attained full gurmukh status ?
BlazinSikh
SPNer
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
Mr Harry Haller Ji,
Giving my thought on your first thought, what you say i partly agree, but if Waheguru Ji does not care on who lives and dies, why would he give us another opportunity to live life again?
On your second thoughts, my idea would be if you want to remove a criminal away from innocent people, sending them to a prison far away from a city/town would be a best idea.
On your third thought, i do agree with, but i still believe Waheguru Ji shows mercy, but not on any random Joe, my thoughts would be a Sikh who follows Waheguru Ji Law/Command/Hukam.
Lastly on your last thought, i'm kinda changing my view on what i believe should be a punishment. My new view on a punishment should be to do the opposite of what a criminal enjoys. What i mean by this is that there are some people out there in this world who enjoy not having freedom, there are some people in this world who enjoy being tortured, and pain. So i think what a punishment should be whatever pains one.
Sorry for the late reply, and thank you to those who have replied back (even though this is not even a thread that i had started, still thank you)
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
- Jan 31, 2011
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I do not believe that Creator does
BlazinSikh
SPNer
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
If you're trying to say convert (or whatever word suites you) the wrong to right, then i completely agree with you 100%.
If you're trying to say convert (or whatever word suites you) the wrong to right, then i completely agree with you 100%.
- Feb 28, 2010
- 53
- 73
What about cases of gang rapes of 6 year olds.. Would U still hold the same belief?
- Jan 31, 2011
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the death penalty issue only raises itself for crimes proven and of suffiicient magnitude, and even then must be carried out with compassion.
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