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Sunny Leone Should Be Excommunicated?

vaulakh

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Dec 18, 2012
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lol

I'm sorry brother, I don't mean to offend, but your words remind me of the President of Iran who said once while visiting the US, "There are no gays in Iran, we don't have this phenomenon" and I couldn't help myself!

I can categorically tell you that lesbianism is not a result of sexual abuse. It is a valid sexual orientation for many women that they are born with, not chosen or conditioned by later experiences.

Lesbianism is not a mental disorder. If you read peer-reviewed studies in sexuality, you will see that it is the way nature makes some women. Homosexuality can also be found in the animal kingdom.

BTW Sikhi is fortunate to be probably the ony religion on earth which doesn't explicitly refer to homosexuality at all in its sacred scriptures, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, so pray tell me where this prejudice towards homosexuals is coming from? It certainly isn't from Sikhi.
Unfortunately,you distracted the attention from main topic-'mysogynistic male control freaks'.It is clear from social research that MOST women opt for LESBIAN orientation due to physical or mental abuse by men,one cannot deny that unless one is stubborn.Regarding natural tendency for being a lesbian,research is controversial,because all genes regulating our behaviour have NOT been identified yet.We cannot definitely say at moment that whether some women are born to be lesbians or the enviornmental factors(including abuse)lead to lesbian orientation through epigenetic changes or some undiscovered phenomenan.
 
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spnadmin

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You know you are on an Internet forum when someone

  1. Thinks they will never be asked to back something up with facts or logic.
  2. Believes one opinion is as good as another... and therefore doesn't have to back something up with facts or logic.
  3. If he/she is asked to back something up, ignores the request and just ladles it on thicker and thicker. EVentually the other side will get bored or tired and give up.

Something a political science professor colleague used to tell all of us a lunch, often: Never admit you are wrong. Never back off. Just bore deeper and keep your opinions up there in front. Actually she lost her audience eventually, but it took years. Here are some examples of what I am talking about:

  • Most pornstars join the pornographic industry because of their avaricious nature or they are addicted to drugs.
  • It is clear from social research that MOST women opt for LESBIAN orientation due to physical or mental abuse by men,one cannot deny that unless one is stubborn.
  • Moreover polygamy is common in western countries,
  • sexual morality is irrelevant to these girls.
  • their number will increase in future as Sikhs in western countries are abandoning their culture but consider themselves more civilized by adapting western way of life.

And then there is this one: "Unfortunately,you distracted the attention from main topic-'mysogynistic male control freaks'"

That is when member plays moderator. When that happens you are surely on an Internet forum. No, "mysogynistic male control freaks" is not the main topic. So let's go back to the main topic.
 

Ishna

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I haven't missed your post in the other thread and I will get to it.

As for the rest of your comments here, James Bond himself will have to answer on my behalf because I can't stop laughing. lol
 

Luckysingh

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Dec 4, 2011
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harry haller is a typical stupid westerner.
Mr vaulakh, you seem to have a real problem and personal issue with westerners!!
You seem to think that all we do is have extra marital affairs, watch and participate in porn, orgies and women that get abused or raped become lesbians !!
So how do you explain gay men ? Were they bullied in school playgrounds by the tougher girls from the opposite sex ???? (Because we have so many cases of little boys being victimised by girls with barbie dolls!)

I can only think of TWO Explanations for your very isolated and crazy views-

1) You have been watching the wrong movies and the wrong adult channels ( there is way more far eastern porn!!)
2) You have most likely been DENIED a VISA to come over to the west and so you are blaming not just the authorities but anything to do with the west in order to DEAL with YOUR REJECTION !!
(PLEASE NOTE- REJECTION can lead to many personality disorders and phobias!!- I highly recommend you seek medical attention and counselling)
 

Randip Singh

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It is your ego that offends you,because in your biography you have written that you are proud to be westerner.Please read CAREFULLY my reply to your post in The Current State of Sikhism in the West and notice that I do realize social problems in Punjab,as I concluded that if situation is bad in Punjab it is worse in west,as per results from social research.

Regarding your concept of 'mysogynistic male control freaks',I would say they are much more common in west as studies show that every 1 in 4 women in west experience domestic violence as consequence high divorce rate and many of these victims opt for LESBIAN orientation.Research has shown that LESBIANISM is mainly a consequence of domestic violence or egotism(extreme feminism),thus, it is not natural but a mental disorder.In general lesbians are not found in Punjab,only exceptional cases may be there.
Comments aside (which I think are not based on any fact), your tone and manner of writing is not very polite. I suggest you address
people with more respect.:angryyoungsingh:
 

japjisahib04

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Can any learn member define what is the definition of prostitution as per gurbani. Please not from the Rehat Maryada.

Gurbani is guiding that anyone who dies with thought of women at last moment, gets reincarnated as prostitute. The issue “Is prostitute a Joon or Profession?”.
2) If someone still comes back into Manukhi Joon (prostitute) by remembering woman, then there shouldn’t be any problem in doing so, because at the end of the day Gurbani advocates that Manukhi joon is supreme joon. If we can come back to supreme joon by remembering woman and escape the 84 Lakh joon cycle, then what is the problem in doing so?
3) As per gurbani even prostitute (Ganika) can get one to one with Akal Purakh. If prostitute can also attain salvation, then what is the problem in coming back as Prostitute? At least we are saved from becoming animals or tree?

Is their any historical evidence what was the profession of Ganika and why guru sahib have used Ganika in gurbani?. Is gurbani referring 'ganika' only to ladies?

I would love to receive comments from learned members?

best regards
sahni
 

aristotle

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I'll quote the meaning of Ganika as provided in the Mahankosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Ji Nabha.

ਗਨਕਾ - ganakā - गनका
ਸੰ. ਗਣਿਕਾ. ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ- ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ. ਕੰਚਨੀ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਗਣਿਕਾ. ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਦੋ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ. ਇੱਕ ਪਿੰਗਲਾ, ਜੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਦੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਸੀ. ਇੱਕ ਰਾਤ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਕਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ. ਅੱਧੀ ਰਾਤ ਵੀਤਣ ਪੁਰ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਤਾਵਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਿ ਜੇ ਇਤਨਾ ਧ੍ਯਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਵੱਲ ਜੋੜਦੀ, ਤਦ ਕੇਹਾ ਉੱਤਮ ਫਲ ਹੁੰਦਾ. ਉਸੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਸਭ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਛੱਡਕੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਪਰਾਇਣ ਹੋਈ ਅਤੇ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿਤਾਇਆ. ਇਸੇ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਨੂੰ ਦੱਤਾਤ੍ਰੇਯ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਲਪਿਆ ਸੀ.
"ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਲੁਭਤੁ ਕੁੰਚਰੁ ਗਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ." (ਕੇਦਾ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ).
ਦੂਜੀ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਉਹ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਾਧੂ ਨੇ ਤੋਤਾ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਮ ਸਿਖਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਉਹ ਨਾਮਅਭ੍ਯਾਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੱਗਕੇ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਹੋ ਗਈ. "ਗਨਿਕਾ ਉਧਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਕਹੈ ਤੋਤ." (ਬਸੰ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੫) "ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਗਨਕਾ ਸੀ ਉਧਰੀ." (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੯) ਦੇਖੋ ਗਨਿਕਾ.
ਗਣਿਕਾ - ganikā - गणिका
ਸੰ. ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ- ਗਣ (ਬਹੁਤ) ਪਤੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ. ਬਹੁਤਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ. ਵੇਸ਼੍ਯਾ. ਕੰਚਨੀ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਗਨਕਾ। ੨. ਹਥਣੀ. ਗਜੀ. ਅਨੇਕ ਹਾਥੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਹ ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ ਹੈ
Now coming to your questions,
If someone still comes back into Manukhi Joon (prostitute) by remembering woman, then there shouldn’t be any problem in doing so, because at the end of the day Gurbani advocates that Manukhi joon is supreme joon. If we can come back to supreme joon by remembering woman and escape the 84 Lakh joon cycle, then what is the problem in doing so?
Japjishaib04 Ji,

History has it that the door is never closed for anyone in Sikhism. There is always room for repentance and reconciliation. The example of Ganika as you quoted precisely proves that. But for a start the offender has to accept his/her mistakes and offences in the first place.
Sikhism has always been a religion of love and peace.
But aw I said, the onus always lies with the offender to begin with.
 

japjisahib04

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I'll quote the meaning of Ganika as provided in the Mahankosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Ji Nabha.
Aristotle Jee

In both cases quoted, it is the female gender who is targeted. Does it mean Gurmat also discriminate with the gender? The pankti referred, ' "ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਗਨਕਾ ਸੀ ਉਧਰੀ." If we limit our understanding by focusing 'ਗਨਕਾ' as merely a lady having affair with several man, than what about Islam which permits a man to have four wife officially and as many as 62 mistresses. Does it mean, man remains pious having relation with more than one lady and lady becomes unpious having relation with more than a man. Further Gurmat does not reject sensuality and speaks of the purification and refinement of desire, it does not reject bhogi, the pleasure seeker. Indeed the divine is seen as the bhogi among bhogis. Further when I can sell or donate my kidney, eyes etc which gives me relief or to other then what is wrong in selling other parts.

In my understanding, Ganika does not represent a name or just refers to a woman but guru sahib is referring to someone who has sold off his conscience and definition of prostitute as per gurbani is the one who has sold off his conscience and not a lady who by profession earns money.

Can anyone quote a pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forbidding relation with more than one lady or man.

I would love to hear comments from other learned members.

Best regrds
sahni
 

aristotle

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In my understanding, Ganika does not represent a name or just refers to a woman but guru sahib is referring to someone who has sold off his conscience and definition of prostitute as per gurbani is the one who has sold off his conscience and not a lady who by profession earns money.
I agree here somewhat. Gurmat does not discriminate on basis of gender.
Should male prostitutes be given a free hand; are the males who sleep with those prostitutes any better?
My answer is no.

Further when I can sell or donate my kidney, eyes etc which gives me relief or to other then what is wrong in selling other parts.
There are specific organ donation laws and are strongly implemented in most of the countries. You cannot 'donate' your vital organs just out of free will while alive except in special circumstances when legally permissible.
Moreover, simple because the word 'selling' is used both for selling organs in black market and for prostitution, you can't equate the two. People don't 'donate' their genitals when they visit a brothel. :D
That's way out of meaning. Please don't drag meanings this way.

what about Islam which permits a man to have four wife officially and as many as 62 mistresses.
Well, you have quoted Islam which explicitly permits polygamy in some forms. The Qur'an and Hadiths have clear mentions on this fact.
Can you find a parallel permission anywhere in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj or the Sikh Rehat Maryada??

Can anyone quote a pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji forbidding relation with more than one lady or man.
Well, I would like to reverse the question. Can you point a single time Polygyny/polygamy/polyandry is encouraged in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj?
Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is not a cookbook of do's and dont's unlike other the texts of other religious or spiritual groups you may refer to.

Moreover, Sikhs as good citizens ought to follow the law of the land. Polygamy is not allowed (except for special legal accommodations for religions like Islam, where it is 'permitted' in religious laws) in most of the countries by law. In many countries, even prostitution and pornography(in various forms; filming, viewing, possessing or distributing) may not be permitted.

The Sikh Rehat Maryada encourages monogamy and being faithful towards one's partner, as well as prohibiting intercourse with a person other than one's spouse,
Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.
Chapter XI, Article XVIII, p
He who regards another man's daughter as his own daughter, regards another man's wife as his mother, has coition with his own wife alone, he alone is a truly disciplined Sikh of the Guru. A Sikh woman shall likewise keep within the confines of conjugal rectitude.
Chapter X, Article XVI, p
The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
4. Using tobacco.
Chapter XIII, Article XXIV
Sometimes all we have to do is put our thinking caps on. Morality does not solely derive from religion, societal norms and mental faculties of a person have a lot to do with this topic.
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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I agree here somewhat. Gurmat does not discriminate on basis of gender. Should male prostitutes be given a free hand; are the males who sleep with those prostitutes any better? My answer is no.
First of all who are the prostitutes and what is the definition of prostitute? According to recent surveys almost 98% of male and female make multiple relationship? And as per Maskin Sahib remaining two percent if don't make multiple relationship it does not they didn't want out of social obligation, morality but because they didn't get the chance. Then why are we living double standard and targeting the one(prostitute) who are only coming up as help for those who were not able to develop relationship.[/QUOTE]

There are specific organ donation laws and are strongly implemented in most of the countries. You cannot 'donate' your vital organs just out of free will while alive except in special circumstances when legally permissible.

Moreover, simple because the word 'selling' is used both for selling organs in black market and for prostitution, you can't equate the two. People don't 'donate' their genitals when they visit a brothel. :D That's way out of meaning. Please don't drag meanings this way.
Blood which is creates and takes care for all organs is officially sold and my point was different.

Well, I would like to reverse the question. Can you point a single time Polygyny/polygamy/polyandry is encouraged in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj?
I am not able to find a single pankti which forbids me to have multiple relationship. What is there is excess of everything is bad.


Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is not a cookbook of do's and dont's unlike other the texts of other religious or spiritual groups you may refer to.
Aristotle jee

Over here I don't agree with. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of instruction guiding us how to be truthful. Please check page No.16 from line 14 onwards in addition to enquiring utility of fasting, idol worshipping, intoxicant, tobacco and hundreds of other rituals.

best regards
sahni
 

spnadmin

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Here is the last paragraph from the very first comment in this thread "Should Sunny Leone be Excommunicated?

In any case, shouldn't people like this be excommunicated formaly from Sikhi rather than people like Kala Afghana? I mean, Ok, if she wants to be a pornstar, that is fine, but why is she claiming to be a Sikh? Has she taken Amrit? does she wear the 5k's? At best she is an apostate Sikh?
The thread starter, Randip Singh ji, respected forum leader, was not taking a personal position on this but asking some key questions. They are questions that lead to some very thorny issues.

1. What makes a Sikh?

2. Does excommunication mean the same thing in Sikhi as in another religion like Roman Catholicism?

3. How does the decision to mark one person for excommunication hold up, when other people committing the same offense never come to the attention of the panth?

3a. Should the Singhs who buy and watch pornography be held to the same level of moral accountability? Guru Nanak actually held men who took prostitutes to a higher level of moral accountability.

4. Is excommunication a matter of stripping one of one's religious affiliation, or is it more like shunning, wherein one is deprived of pangat and sangat until one receives a tankhah, carries it out, and asks for atonement?

5. What difference does it make to deprive Sunny Leone of pangat and sangat? Does it make me a better person? Does it bring me closer to Ik Oan Kar?

6. Does Ik Oan Kar reside within Sunny Leone, or not until she accepts a tankha and seeks attonement? And gets it?

7. If Sunny Leone is deprived of pangat and sangat, is the panth better for it?

8. How would the practice of Sikhi by Sikhs change in fundamental ways by punishment of Sunny Leone? Joginder Singh was excommunicated; Sikhs still read Rozana Spokesman.

9. This is a notorious case that will not die. Why does the sexuality of a woman acquire international notoriety? Why on the other hand is it the theological arguments of a man that achieve the same level of international notoriety? I am wondering about proportionality of moral outrage, not so much about equal treatment of sexes.

10. When Maharajah Ranjit Singh received a tankhah (in his case it was a sound whipping) for his dalliances with a dancing girl, he brought her into his household of wives and concubines. If my memory is correct - Gyani ji please correct me - this was the same woman who came to sati when he died. Does our high regard for the greater achievements of Maharaja ji outweigh our concern for kaam, or sati? Or did his humble acceptance of punishment make Sikhs more forgiving? Sunny Leone would not be "on his same level." Or would she?
 

aristotle

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First of all who are the prostitutes and what is the
definition of prostitute?
According to Merriam Webster dictionary,
prostitute
noun
1 a : a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money : *****
b : a male who engages in sexual and especially homosexual practices for money
2 : a person (as a writer or painter) who deliberately debases his or her talents (as for money)
Blood which is creates and takes care for all organs is
officially sold and my point was different.
Blood is not 'officially sold', only the costs incurred at its preservation in bloodbanks are recovered. Anyways I think you want to make another point on this. Please state what.

Aristotle jee
Over here I don't agree with. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
is full of instruction guiding us how to be truthful.
Please check page No.16 from line 14 onwards in
addition to utility of fasting, idol worshipping and
hundreds of other rituals.
Well, I don't think so. Seeing Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj as a list of instructions will be highly erroneous. There is no doubt in my mind that Gurbani urges the Sikhs to think and decide for themselves rather than dictating a set of laws.
There are certain theological points, ike you mentioned fasting and idol worshipping et cetera, where Gurbani is absolutely clear and explicit, but there too there isn't binding, there is no such concept in Gurmat where personal discretion is not evoked.
Guru Sahib is not a holy book, that is what the whole concept is about.
 

aristotle

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1. What makes a Sikh?
Regarding the matter at hand, I don't think we should go by mere definitions. In fact, each time we give a definition, we shut a number of people out of that definition, which may not always be fair.

2. Does excommunication mean the same thing in Sikhi as in another religion like Roman Catholicism?

3. How does the decision to mark one person for excommunication hold up, when other people committing the same offense never come to the attention of the panth?

3a. Should the Singh who buy and watch pornography be held to the same level of moral accountability? Guru Nanak actually held men who took prostitutes to a higher level of moral accountability.
Well, the Papal decisions in the medieval times regarding excommunication were no different from those by our Jathedars in the present times, tinted with political colours and the cause of confusion among the believer masses. I don't think those who make such decisions themselves take them any seriously.

4. Is excommunication a matter of stripping one of one's religious affiliation, or is it more like shunning, wherein one is deprived of pangat and sangat until one receives a tankhah, carries it out, and asks for atonement?
I think it is more like a social embarrasment encouraging a person to take responsibility for his/her doings and seek repentance for them.

5. What difference does it make to deprive Sunny Leone of pangat and sangat? Does it make me a better person? Does it bring me closer to Ik Oan Kar?
Well, I doubt if Sunny considers herself a Sikh anyways, although there is a tendency among pornstars to come clean as having 'accepted' God into their lives as they near their retirement. There have been numerous such cases and fake religious conversions, they are nothing but an eyewash.

6. Does Ik Oan Kar reside within Sunny Leone, or not until she accepts a tankha and seeks attonement? And gets it?

7. If Sunny Leone is deprived of pangat and sangat, is the panth better for it?

8. How would the practice of Sikhi by Sikhs change in fundamental ways by punishment of Sunny Leone? Joginder Singh was excommunicated; Sikhs still read Rozana Spokesman.
Well, it all boils down again to a simple question, 'Is Sunny Leone, or whatever is her real name, a Sikh?' I don't hink a person should be extended the privilege of being called a Sikh just by the virtue of her being born into a Sikh family. I don't think there is any clause of segregation of someone in any way in Sikhism, it does however at the same time, condemn immoral acts.

10. When Maharajah Ranjit Singh received a tankhah (in his case it was a sound whipping) for his dalliances with a dancing girl, he brought her into his household of wives and concubines. If my memory is correct - Gyani ji please correct me - this was the same woman who came to sati when he died. Does our high regard for the greater achievements of Maharaja ji outweigh our concern for kaam, or sati? Or did his humble acceptance of punishment make Sikhs more forgiving? Sunny Leone would not be "on his same level." Or would she?
Maharajah Ranjit Singh was a good king, he initiated a number of sociopolitical reforms and is praised for them. But does that automatically qualify him of being held in regard in Sikh circles? I don't think so.
IMO Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur was the only 'King' in history who represented the Khalsa Raj.
Ranjit Singh was no different to other contemporary emperors in matters of sociality, he had a number of wives and concubines, and enjoyed the luxuries of a King's life, knowing at the same time that someone somewhere would be dying of starvation in his own kingdom.
Moreover, Sikh religious leaders had quite a spine at that time, that was precisely what made Ranjit's indictment before the Akal Takht Sahib possible. Laws, religious or political, are as good as the enforcers want them to be.
 

japjisahib04

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Jan 22, 2005
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prostitute noun
1 a : a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money : *****
b : a male who engages in sexual and especially homosexual practices for money
2 : a person (as a writer or painter) who deliberately debases his or her talents (as for money).
Our dear bapu asaram had gifted two flats to Shilpi in exchange for sex. Does she come under that definition? Wherever there is multiple relationship there is always exchange of favors either through gift, arranging job or something else.

best regards
sahni
 

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