Stories: Hard To Believe

[Ksingh1985]

Im new so i apologize if this is in the wrong forum or this topic has been discussed already. But i have a question. I always here these stories about our gurus and its very difficult to believe, espically in this time. For example:
"One morning when the Guru was sitting in meditation, the demon rolled down a large pathar (boulder) from the hilltop, with the intention of killing the Guru. The boulder came rolling down and when it touched the Guru’s body, it melted like wax. The Guru kept on meditating unhurt and undisturbed. Thinking that the Guru had been killed, the demon came down and was taken aback to see the Guru deep in meditation. In a fit of anger, he tried to push the boulder with his right foot, but as the pathar had already melted like wax, his foot got embedded in it"

This story seems hard to believe. Im i missing something. To me this is an perfect example of science vs religion. It impoosible to turn a boulder into wax. Your input is greatly appreciated, thank you

 

[spnadmin]

Ksingh 1985 ji

Thanks for the link. Here it is, posted for everyone else. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Tibet_Quotes

This is from an article, "Guru Nanak in Tibet" at the SikhiWiki site, and is a wonderful summary of the Tibetan memory of Guru Nanak in his udasi to Tibet, and the Buddhist viewpoint of his life and contributions.

The actual story you report is a sakhi or life sketch told by the Tibetan Lamas. Here is the story in its entirety. It is actually written as part of a travelogue intended to give the traveler a sense of the folklore that surrounds holy places in Tibet.

A Gurdwara Revered by Lamas too

Nestled deep in the Himalayas, about 25 km from the town of Leh, is the Gurdwara, Pathar Sahib. The Gurdwara was built in 1517 to commemorate the visit of Guru Nanak Dev. It is believed that Guru Nanak Dev reached Leh via Sikkim, Nepal, Tibet and Yarkhand. The place is revered by both the local lamas and Sikh sangat. Currently the Army is looking after the gurdwara.

As per a legend, there lived a wicked demon who terrorised the people in the area where the gurdwara is situated. The people prayed to the Almighty for help. It is said that Guru Nanak heard their woes and came to their aid. He settled down on the bank of the river below the hill where the wicked demon lived. The Guru blessed the people with sermons and became popular in the area. The locals called him Nanak Lama. The demon got into rage and decided to kill Guru Nanak Dev.

One morning when the Guru was sitting in meditation, the demon rolled down a large pathar (boulder) from the hilltop, with the intention of killing the Guru. The boulder came rolling down and when it touched the Guru’s body, it melted like wax. The Guru kept on meditating unhurt and undisturbed. Thinking that the Guru had been killed, the demon came down and was taken aback to see the Guru deep in meditation. In a fit of anger, he tried to push the boulder with his right foot, but as the pathar had already melted like wax, his foot got embedded in it. On seeing this, demon realised his own powerlessness as compared with the spiritual powers of the great Guru. He fell at the feet of Guru Nanak Dev and begged for forgiveness. Guru Sahib advised him to get rid of his wicked ways and asked him to lead a life of a noble person. This changed the life of the demon, who gave up evil deeds and started serving the people.

Guru Nanak Dev thereafter continued his holy journey towards Srinagar via Kargil. The pathar pushed down by the demon, with the imprint of the body of Guru Nanak Dev as also the foot imprint of the demon, is at present lying in Gurdwara Pathar Sahib. It is said that since the visit of Guru Sahib (in 1517) to 1965, the local lamas held pathar sacred and offered prayers to it.

To visit the gurdwara, one can take, a flight to Leh from New Delhi and stay in a hotel at Leh. As Leh is located at a high altitude, one can have breathing problems due to the paucity of oxygen. Visitors are advised to consult their doctors before embarking on this journey. The 25-km road from Leh to the Gurdwara Pathar Sahib is in good condition. Visitors can go by bus or taxi. The Gurdwara Sahib is located next to the road.

(By Surinder Kaur Bains

My reaction.There is historical support that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, and that he made a positive impression on the lamas. We should respect the right of Tibetans to believe this story, but it has no standing within the Sikh religion, as Sikhs do not subscribe to demons. So the question about religion versus science has no context here.

Here is the similar version from the Janamsakhi. It is posted on Sikhnet in the children's section http://www.sikhnet.com/audio/guru-nanak-and-boulder It shares some important parallels with the story of the Tibetan demon....I do not want at this time to say whose Janamskahi this originates from, or if it is originally told by Bhai Bala. I am not sure.

Once Guru Nanak, Bala and Mardana were traveling and Mardana was feeling very thirsty. It was very hot out and they had been walking for such a long time. They just arrived at a place where a greedy man lived. He had a well and everyone in the area needed the water to wash themselves, the grow food, to drink. He would charge them money for using the well.

Guru Nanak sent Mardana to get some water from the well. When Mardana got to the top of the hill he asked the man, "Can I have some water? My friends and I are very thirsty." The man said, "You have to pay. If you don't pay you can't have any water." Mardana said, "We don't have any money sir, we just need water." The man said, "If you don't have money, than you can't have any."

So Mardana came down and told the Guru what the man had said. Guru ji said, "Go again and tell him you are asking in the Name of God." So Mardana did and again the man refused. Mardana again came back and told Guru ji what happened. Guru ji said, "We must give a person three chances to do what is right. Go again and ask him in the Name of God to share some water with us." So Mardana asked him, "Please sir, share some water. I ask you again in the Name of God. I'm sure if you share God will bless you." The man said, "I don't care! If you don't have money, go away. Stop bothering me."

Three chances had been up. They were thirsty and hot. Guru ji said, "Do not worry. God always takes care of us." He got a small stick and dug it in the ground. It was amazing! A spring of pure, clear, refreshing water came up. Everyone was really happy. They all drank what they needed to and other people also came to have some of this spring water. The man on top of the hill, saw this. He looked in his own well, it was drying up. The water was going from his well to the spring down there where all the people are. He became furious.

Near by there was a huge rock, a boulder. He mustered all him might, and with great effort he managed to tip it over. He wanted to crush Guru Nanak. The boulder rolled down the hill gaining speed as it went. Everyone got out of the way... everyone except Guru Nanak. The huge boulder was going to run right over him and destroy him. Mardana cried, "Guru ji, please get out of the way, the boulder is coming right for you! Come, please!" But Guru Nanak just meditated where he was. He calmly reached his one hand out to stop the huge boulder. Mardana didn't want to see his beloved master killed, "Guru ji, I beg you, get out of the way!"

Then the huge rock met with Guru Nanak's hand. It stopped right in it's place. Guru Nanak's hand left an imprint in the hard stone as if it was made out of soft clay. The man saw how Guru ji had stopped the boulder as if it was nothing. He realized that what he had done and ran down to ask forgiveness. He bowed to the Guru and begged to be taught how to live in a more spiritual way. Everyone was amazed of the power of God. The people had fresh water they didn't have to pay for. The boulder had stopped in it's tracks and the man had changed his ways. From then on he was a generous, sharing and kind man. Whatever God made is for all of us. It's always best to share what we have and take care of each other.

Now once again, I don't see this as a question of religion versus science. I see it more as a matter of truth versus fiction. The janamsakhi falls into a group of life sketches in which Guru Nanak is made to look a miracle worker. But Guruji himself rejected miracles in his bani in many places, and there are other sakhis which contradict the "miracle" working image of Guru Nanak. All of this makes for a good conversation.

The janamsakhi are a slippery slope. There are several collections of them and they are inconsistent with each other. Some can be validated because they match what Guruji relates in his hymns in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Others are likely to be pure fiction, told to make ordinary things and places seem full of holiness. And the motivation may be to collect money and tribute from pilgrims who travel to the site of the "miracle." We have a thread on janamsakhi and the difficulties that scholars have encountered with them.

Janam-Sakhis: The FABEL-ous Cultural Heritage
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/34418-janam-sakhis-fabel-ous-cultural-heritage.html

I have uploaded an excellent scholarly work on this subject as a pdf file. See the attachment.

 

[spnadmin]

Note on Bhai Bala.

The janamsakhi by Bhai Bala were at one time believed to be the first account of Guru Nanak's life, written in 1540. Later scholars disputed this,

...the Bhai Bala janam sakhi had an immense influence over determining what is generally accepted as the authoritative account of Guru Nanak Dev’s life. This work concentrates on the Guru’s udasis and it became very popular. The writer claims to be Bala Sandhu, and the Guru’s companion on the long journeys, he also says that Guru Angad asked him to write the stories in Samvrat 1592. However, some inconsistencies have led historians to the conclusion that another writer took the name of Bhai Bala and this writer was strongly influenced by the Handiali sect. The problem with this janam sakhi is that the language used was not spoken at the time of Guru Nanak or Guru Angad, but was developed at least a hundred years later; at several places, expressions like “Waheguru ji ki Fateh” are used, but these came in only during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). All this makes scholars believe that the Bhai Bala janam sakhi was written in the early part of the 18th century.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/34418-janam-sakhis-fabel-ous-cultural-heritage.html

Truth or fiction?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

FICTION is always very interesting...that is why FICTION BOOKS outsell FACTUAL books by about 10 to 1 !! The Harry Potter books is an example...

2. Most Important is this FICTION is NOT written by the GURUS....the GURUS wrote the SGGS/GURBANI..so if you want to know what the GURU SAYS..FIRSTHAND..read the SGGS.
IF one wants to see what Diivine Message the GURUs Have brought us..read the SGGS..if one wants to be entertained...then go ahead and read Bhai Bala Janamsakhi, Sau sakhi, Bhai Vir Singhs Chamatkaars, Suraj parksh, etc etc etc etc..THOUSANDS of such sakhis and tales abound.. YOU WILL NOT NEED any dictionaries..any explanatory notes, any Darpans...and steeks.....just rudimentary knowledge of the language used to write them...and I can vouch they are way more "entertaining" than GURBANI...which may indeed be quite "boring" even to the uninitiated...as a DIAMOND needs a Jeweller to be "known" but any fool can judge/buy the ordinary CRYSTAL in a China Shop !! Diamonds need decades of EXPERTISE and experience....any Tom and Harry cna open a Crystal shop and begin selling shining glass beads....Simple as THAT. There is no question of science vs religion etc becasue this is NEITHER SCIENCE nor RELIGION (GURMATT). Gurmatt firmly rooted in HUKM RAZAII Challanna...HIS HUKM is SUPREME..no miracles, no going against Nature, laws of Physics, Science etc GRAVITY works on ALL..NO SIKH GURU would ever try and make stones FLY ( other may make Elephants fly)..simply becasue the Law of GRAVITY is in HIS HUKM..and the SIKH GURU would never go against that !!!NO SIKH GURU would walk on WATER..or make stones FLOAT...or make rivers flow UPWARDS...because that is NOT in His HUKM... RAIN ALWAYS FALLS from the SKY to the EARTH....and thats exactly how the SIKH GURU would say and Follow....what is so great IF one SIKH GURU does make RAIN GO UPWARDS...or WALK on water for an hour or a day..or Make stones float !! WHAT WOULD THAT PROVE ?? NOTHING. PERIOD. Except show that the SIKH GURU wants to CHALLENGE the CREATOR....show He is special ??? DIVINE ?? His MESSENGER ??

You see, the SIKH GURU is PARAS....the "special substance" that Makes OTHERS INTO PARAS. A "Paras" that Makes IRON into GOLD...is common...any ordinary magician can do that...BUT to CREATE PARAS INTO PARAS ?? ONLY the SIKH GURU can do that. HOW ??

GURU NANAK FACED the TYRANTS...His SIKHS faced tyrants equally.
Guru Angad faced up to Humanyun and his drawn sword !! fearlessly...
Guru Arjun Ji sat on the Hot Plate..His SIKHS also sat on similar hot plates, got boiled in cauldrons..as HAPPILY as the GURU...look at Bhai Mati Singh being sawed alive..Bhai sati Dass being burnt ALIVE...Bhai Dyala being BOILED ALIVE...HAPPILY and with compelte PEACE as in TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH. The GURU never let out any complaint..neither di his SIKHS..one PARAS created so many PARAS..not jsut "golden objects"...
GURU GOBIND SINGH made the KHANDEY BATTEH DEE PAHUL...the PANJ CREATED the Very SAME PAHUL !!! GURU Gobind Singh ji scarificed his everything..same did so many THOUSANDS of SIKHS..fearlessly...happily....contented in HIS HUKM....at PEACE ....
Chotteh Sahibzadehs martyred at age 5 and 7..Bhai Harkeerat Singh martyred VOLUNTARILY at age 7 in PUBLIC with the Singhs of Baba Banda Singh bahadur in DELHI.
The MIRACLES of the SIKH GURUS....created..continue to happen...daily...1708-1850.....1850-1890....1919...1942....1947....1984...and WILL CONTINUE UNABATED...because they are in HIS HUKM...in perfect TUNE with His Nature..His Laws...Sikhs dont celebrate "martyrdom" by killing an innocent animal that ahs no choice..is bound hand and foot...stunned and cut up in "HIS NAME"...the SIKH OFFERS HIS OWN LIFE....Baba Banda Singh had the BEATING HEART of his TODDLER SON cut OUT and stuffed into his mouth...not a word of anger..not a word of complaint...just ACCEPTANCE of HIS HUKM....Hukm Razaii Challnna !!! A Huge HORDE of marauding barbarians surround the one storey mud house of Chamkaur...hundreds of thousands against just 40 hungry weary sikhs.... SIKH GURUS didnt make the SUN STOP dead in the SKY...they THANKED HIM that the Day has been spent in HIS HUKM..and may the NIGHT also be spent in HIS HUKM..and the FRESH DAY as well !!..to FIGHT as well as they can under the circumstances..for HIS VICTORY His FATEH...not theirs...because they are also HIS....not theirs.

Lest people say that was ..."long ago".....the 21 SIKHS repeated the same at SARAGHARREE in AFGHANISTAN BORDER in BRITISH TIME !! 21 brave sikhs against THOUSANDS !!!...and then once again in 1984...Operation Bluestar.....in AMRITSAR just 26 years ago !!! The PARAS of the GURU is still making more PARASes....and will continue to do so..THAT is the REALITY of GURMATT...and SCIENCE has absolutley NOTHING to say about this !!!!

 

[Randip Singh]

Sorry but this is hard to believe. ome points to note:

• The Guru's did no miracles
• The Guru's did not meet demons
• Bhai Gurdas contemporary of the Guru's recorded no such fantastical events.
• Most Sakhi's are written in the 19th Century and are more fiction than fact.

Remember, we are talking about our Guru here. Our teacher. Not Charles Xavier of the X-men!!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

It is rather ."hard to believe"...that a CONFIRMED Murderer who has built up a facade of fake religiousness for decades, and behind thta Mask of Divinity actually brutally murdered hundreds of innocent people..would suddenly and dramatically CHANGE overnight !!
BUT that did happen..and if you like you can call it a "miracle"..and MY GURU JI certainly performed those types of miracles (if you call it that )...Read Guru Jis own handwritten testimony to that..OOJAL Keha chilkanna...OH your white Robes and Radiant face sshines so brightly...BUT WITHIN is a Heart as Black as COAL !! Sajjan the THUGGH (Cult of murderers and blood sacrificers, human sacrificers, cannibals, blood drinkers ) saw that his Fake facade was ripped apart and he immediately dropped t his knees before Guru nanak ji and decided that from that day on he would be just plain Simple SAJJAN and DROP his "THUGGH" SURNAME !!

2. People..plain ordinary people..farmers, halwaiis...dhobis, water carriers...etc etc people who had become so used to SLAVERY and abject poverty and took consolation in Karma...bad karma in previous lives...etc etc Blah Blah Blah...who opened their MOUTHS to receive the "holy spit" of the Muslim Oppressor..who tied twigs and branches to their backsides to sweep away their "unholy steps" lest the high brhamin might be polluted by the dust of their feet....the DOWNTRODDEN MASSES for THOUSAND YEARS....10 full centuries....were TRANSFORMED within a FEW DECADES into the MOST Viable Fighting Machine the world has yet to see....the person who had never lifted a kitchen knife began to weild the sword that terrified the traiend professional mughal soldier...the Water carrier that began to see ALL as FRIEND and NONE as his ENEMY...now that is a MIRACLE ( if you like to call it that )...the RAG TAG Masses into the KHALSA that RULED the Land of the Five Rivers..that flew its Nishan Sahib on the RED FORT at Delhi..that SEALED the Borders at Derrah Khyber for ever..the Khlasa that fought with such valour that even its enemies called them DOGS that fight like LIONS !!! Isnt that a miracle ?? isnt that a bit hard to beleive ??
BUT all of that is REAL....110% REAL and testified to as REAL..not fiction...not imagination...not tall tales.. Anandpur Sahib is real....Chamkaur is real. Walls of Sirhind is REAL...Chaparr Chhirree is REAL...700 singhs kissing DEATH in Delhi with Banda Singh is REAL...Saragharrhee is REAL..Darbar sahib 1984 is REAL !!

Just turn on your U-TUBE and you can see lots of magicians..even Religious Babas and Holy Men performing acts "hard to beleive"...like turning water to Wine..turning ashes to Diamonds..making chairs overturn by themsleves...and we all go like WAH WAH..so clever...how did he do that ?? How did sai Baba make ash into diamons..how did that baba make tea out of plain water...how did that Brahmgyani stop water flowing out of a bottomless cup ?? so common....

But Thermopyle...Saragharee..Chamkaur..Sirhind...Ops Bluestar 1984...??? very very RARE EVENTS..only the likes of REAL miracle men can perform..and on HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in real life..Those are miracles.Fakes can only show slight of Hand..hidden chemicals to make changes to other chemicals...but we find those interesting..simply becasue we are simple minded folks.with simple pleasurers and the tricksters KNOW that !!!