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Simran And Sikhi (Karminder Singh Dhillon)

chazSingh

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A very few of us do real simran, majority of us just join the loud chantings like brahmanical rites. Simran is remembering him and try to dive in the ocean of guru's words to get some enlightening ideas and power

Just some questions Ji...

how do you go about Remembering God?
Are the enlightening ideas or power given to us? or do we try to get them ourselves?

When people lose their memory due to an accident... various methods are used to try and get the person to remember the knowledge they have lost..

reading past stories...visiting places the person once visited....etc etc...
Its not the method that is called 'Remembering'
the actual remembering occurs seemingly spontaniously from 'within', and the person says "wow, this is who i really am, this is me, this is my life....i Remember now"

How many of us have had this Simran, this awakening to the truth? how many remember what we have forgotten?

until this Grace is bestowed upon us by Waheguru...all we can do is truthful deeds, and focus some of our dhiaan/Attention on Shabad...and hopefully the shabad guides our consciousness to complete knowledge truth and full experience of the truth which we have forgotton...
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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A very few of us do real simran, majority of us just join the loud chantings like brahmanical rites. Simran is remembering him and try to dive in the ocean of guru's words to get some enlightening ideas and power


Roop Ji..Back in the old days...when pen and paper were real luxuries...people had to make do with their MEMORY...then came papaer and pencil..and people gave up some of their "MEMORY" replaced by PAPER...secretaries had to write down word for word..then came SHORTHAND...etc etc etc..."MEMORY" became a bad word...better keep ones BRAIN UNUSED !!

I remember the early days of Computers...we had a blinking CURSOR..and a BLACK SCREEN....each "Command" was TYPED in letter by letter..a dot missing....and the entire Humpty Dumpty would crash tot he floor !! A Missing/torn tiny hole and a thousand perfect cards stacked would STOP dead...People MEMORISED short cuts..Commands..!!!

TODAY..we click a mouse click..and everything si AUTOMATED..Drivers, Installers, everything gets done...no more Commands and cursors blinking on blank screens..just the OK Button !!

THATS how SIMRAN has morphed in Sikhism..early ON..Sikhs beginning with GURU NANAK JI..."MEMORISED"...fully...each WORD was constantly in MEMORY...PRACTISE practise and more practise...thats why their FACES SHONE...GLOWED...

UNLIKE todays ZOMBIE SIKHS...whose listless faces..tell the whole story...all they do is PRESS START..and then wait for the OK Button. Task COMPLETED. What happened in between ?? who cares...its all nitty gritty...Early people LISTENED....GURU NANAK JI and Bhai mardana SPOKE a whole lot more than any Ragis/Parcharaks today...and the people LISTENED..real GOOD...and thats why they CHANGED...SAJJAN THUGGH just LISTENED to ONE SHABAD..and he Transformed from a serial killer to a good HUMAN BEING...ZOMBIE SIKHS have THOUSANDS of HOURS of MP3 Files of Shabads, kathas, whatever..on their IPads, ThinkPads, whatever...BUT they NEVER LISTEN..not really !! Just Imagine what Sajjan Thuggh would be IF he had an IPAD with 2 TB HDD full of GURU NANAK JIS SHABADS !!! I have come across ZOMBIE SIKHS constantly PLUGGED EARS...but USELESS HUMANS..cheater, liars, fraudsters..drug lords, drug carriers, insurance fraudsters...name it SIKHS have IT..

I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.

RAGIS..in matching turbans and shiny clothes (Sajjan Thuggh..OOJal keha chilkanna !!) bigger and bigger Mahaan Kirtan darbars..SHOW CASED KIRTAN PERFORMANCES..Kathas CDs DVds by the ZILLION..thousands upon thousands of AKHAND PAATHS being RUN like TV SERIALS that never end...Naam rass darbars, nagar Kirtans, Naam japp sessions, chantings, head shakings, arms up in the air nam sessions..you name it ZOMBIE SIKHS have it...

its ALL AUTOMATED. ROBOTICS IN ACTION.
 

chazSingh

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I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.


Giani Ji,

Just because he is the first for the 5.30am naam japp session doesnt mean all his daily actions are going to be 100% honest and truthful...

He is probably putting the effort into his naam japna, because he knows his shortfalls and seeks Guru Ji's help to overcome his lifelong bad habits...

old habbits die hard...sometimes the greatest surrender and distruction of the Ego is when one falls to his feet and accepts that certain things he is unable to overcome by himself (Ego)

(I hope in his internal dialogue with God, that this is his reason for the naam japna or whatever else he does to cleanse himself)

I do my Simran in the early hours because not because i deem myself as a good sikh, but because I Know i have serious bad habits and am strung like a puppet by the 5 thieves....i cry out to Guru Ji to ferry me across this terryfying world ocean...

of course in the meantime, the world will look upon me with eyes of judgement and say "look at him, he does his amrit vela, but he still does this that and the other...and he calls himseld a good sikh, pathetic"

But i know the judgement isnt from guru ji, and day by day the light He shines internally is cleaning me bit by bit

:) (A smiling zombie sikh - who seeks to be awoken)
 
Nov 14, 2008
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This has been a time of learning and spiritual growth for me. I have some new learnings and beliefs as a result of this inquiry and your very generous dialogue with me. Sikhi is way deeper than I had ever comprehended.

I have learned that there is no "one right way". There are multiples approaches and each person does what makes sense to him or her, and what resonates with them the most. At the end of the day, it's not about following protocol as much as it's about the real connection with the Creator. Since we are all individuals, the many and myriad ways in which we connect to our Beloved will also be as individual as we are. There is no one "right" way that can be used as a formula, or recipe.

Sikhi is all about love. We can see from any love story that the lover and beloved don't need anyone to tell them how to connect with each other. Even if the whole world is against them, still they go to meet each other. Sikhi is the ultimate Love story. We are all born with this innate sense inside us, we can all tune it to that love.

I have been asking about how to do it, because I was concerned that I might be doing it wrong. In fact I was doing it wrong. But not cause I was following one prescription and not the other. In fact, Guru Sahib didn't give a procedure, and that should have been a clue.

This at once makes it sooooo compelling and just about the most difficult thing. Because there's nobody in your way. And because you're going to have to put in some real work, some real effort here. Following a recipe is easy, execution of steps 1 through n is easy. But actually building everything from scratch, that's a real challenge. It completely frees you from any and all burdens, but at the same time everything is up to you. Because everything really *is* up to you.

Thank you everyone.

Guru Fateh!


thanks for lovely post , i enjoyed reading it !! blessings
 

ActsOfGod

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I personally know one such Zombie Sikh..epitome of Spirituality...constantly Gutka in hand..rosarie being twiddled in other hand...mumbling waheguru waheguru..he even answers the phone by chanting Waheguru instead of Hello..and then you should see how he callously announces pay cuts of his workers.."You came late 10 minutes..Cut $4....hey you..you didnt come at all..day pay cut....hey you..you were snoozing at your post..$10 cut...hey you..uniform dirty cut $7..end of MONTH..each fellow gets paid only about 50%...hook or crook..he squeezes 50% each month..so easily and while ferring Mala and reading Sukhmani Sahib..with his eyes (and listening to same via earphones)..24/7 !! He takes NO PRISONERS..meaning no EXCUSES..dont care if you fell..your car had an accidnet..you were mugged..your wife died..NO EXCUSES..just PAY CUT !! In the early Morning Gurdwara 5.30 am DARKNESS NAAM JAPP SESSION..he is always the FIRST.

Bhul chuk maaf karni ji, but the above sounds very judgmental of the person in question. Whatever his shortcomings, surely we are not in a position to weigh and measure his actions and judge him?

Reading the above reminded me of the story of Scrooge. Everyone always considered him a miser, and he himself believed that he was financially successful because he always pinched pennies. But the real truth was that he was financially successful because he worked hard, kept meticulous records, and invested wisely with good rates of return. It had nothing to do with being miserly -- that was just a red herring.

Even in the story above, I see a similar reflection. I notice a few things about the individual. He is the first in the Gurudwara at 5:30am, that tells you something about a person. It's not easy to get up that early and consistently be at the Gurudwara. In point of fact it's actually very, very difficult. This person is very disciplined. He had probably learned at some point or another in his life that self-discipline is important. Perhaps his parents taught him or he learned in school. In any case, he has made it a part of his life, and he does consider spirituality to be important (however he defines it according to his understanding). Otherwise he would not be the first at the Gurudwara every morning at 5:30am.

Yes, perhaps he might be making it about significance and he may be wrapped up in ego (but aren't we all?)

I think he's very strict with his workers because he's equally hard on himself. It's his worldview and how he believes things are to be. I believe he treats everyone in the same way. From his filter/lens, it's self-discipline, and that's how you succeed.

Personally, I know a lot of ex-military people who are similar and everything is about discipline. Even after leaving the military, they are always punctual for meetings (to the minute). It has become their identity.

I don't think he's a bad person at all. I just think he has a different rule set than you or I. But that doesn't mean he's not doing the right thing as per his spirituality. Yes, if I want to judge I could say he needs to ditch the rosary/mala, but then when in my life have I been first to Gurudwara at 5:3am in the morning. I can tell you the answer: never. So if we get down to mud-slinging, who is the "better" Sikh here? In Guru's eyes, there is no judgement.

Even when the Tenth King composed Tav Prasad Savaiye, he observed all the ignorance and blind rituals that the world was performing which were total garbage and completely useless, but he never once judged the people practicing those rituals. He observed it and penned it down in the Bani, which we all recite today, but not once did he judge. I find that so humbling that it makes me want to weep.

I believe we need to exercise more compassion in our lives.

Guru Fateh!
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Bhul chuk maaf karni ji, but the above sounds very judgmental of the person in question. Whatever his shortcomings, surely we are not in a position to weigh and measure his actions and judge him?

Reading the above reminded me of the story of Scrooge. Everyone always considered him a miser, and he himself believed that he was financially successful because he always pinched pennies. But the real truth was that he was financially successful because he worked hard, kept meticulous records, and invested wisely with good rates of return. It had nothing to do with being miserly -- that was just a red herring.

Even in the story above, I see a similar reflection. I notice a few things about the individual. He is the first in the Gurudwara at 5:30am, that tells you something about a person. It's not easy to get up that early and consistently be at the Gurudwara. In point of fact it's actually very, very difficult. This person is very disciplined. He had probably learned at some point or another in his life that self-discipline is important. Perhaps his parents taught him or he learned in school. In any case, he has made it a part of his life, and he does consider spirituality to be important (however he defines it according to his understanding). Otherwise he would not be the first at the Gurudwara every morning at 5:30am.

Yes, perhaps he might be making it about significance and he may be wrapped up in ego (but aren't we all?)

I think he's very strict with his workers because he's equally hard on himself. It's his worldview and how he believes things are to be. I believe he treats everyone in the same way. From his filter/lens, it's self-discipline, and that's how you succeed.

Personally, I know a lot of ex-military people who are similar and everything is about discipline. Even after leaving the military, they are always punctual for meetings (to the minute). It has become their identity.

I don't think he's a bad person at all. I just think he has a different rule set than you or I. But that doesn't mean he's not doing the right thing as per his spirituality. Yes, if I want to judge I could say he needs to ditch the rosary/mala, but then when in my life have I been first to Gurudwara at 5:3am in the morning. I can tell you the answer: never. So if we get down to mud-slinging, who is the "better" Sikh here? In Guru's eyes, there is no judgement.

Even when the Tenth King composed Tav Prasad Savaiye, he observed all the ignorance and blind rituals that the world was performing which were total garbage and completely useless, but he never once judged the people practicing those rituals. He observed it and penned it down in the Bani, which we all recite today, but not once did he judge. I find that so humbling that it makes me want to weep.

I believe we need to exercise more compassion in our lives.

Guru Fateh!

Really and truly well said Jios. A beautiful post by a beautiful Sikh.
I am not judging this person ( as a matter of interest he is also one of my earliest and most able Gurbani students and now a good friend of the family and we come and go to each others homes most of the time..)..I just pointed out the different facets a person can posess..and what we all "see" could be "right/wrong/maybe/???". Yes ..i taught him the discipline..and he has become better than me....( maybe I am "jealous" he beats me to the first past the pole (Nishan sahib I mean..)??? that could be the reaosn i mentioned it ?? maybe ?? or that he keeps the gutka and mala and earphones plugged IN....I also tried to stop him breaking the fresh flowers off their stalks to matha tek daily (Paatee torreh maalnni...patee pattee JEEO...) but had no effect on his daily habit...although as amatter of habit, he never does anything without asking my opinion/gurmatt viewpoint first thing...and i give it freely..

Thank you for the input jios..you have renewed my faith as many posters do it on a daily basis on SPN...that real SIKHI and Gurmatt are flourishing !!

Regards

Guru fateh.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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When Sikhs descend into Rituals and lip syncing...we begin to LOVE such songs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Hj0IEW_fQ#t=23

This Yamla jatt singer is LONGING for Guru nanak jis RETURN...and most Sikhs will say...wow..what a wonderful song..so full of love..BUT its actually GOING AGAINST EVERY SINGLE THING that Guru ji taught us when HE did come here in 1469...and He has LEFT us HIS LEGACY in the SGGS...but we refuse to beleive in the SGGS..and BEG GOD to send back Guru nanak in HUMAN FORM...so many such songs..AAVeehen Baba nanaka..is another famous one..

Please read what a writer ahs to say...( In Punjabi) But with quotes from SGGS as to WHAT Guru nanak ji ORDERED us to do..and what we really do...WHAT would Guru nanak ji say..IF he were to enter our GURDWARAS...sit down with us in Langgar..attend our WEDDINGS...would HE "RECOGNISE" his SIKHS..or see a whole lot of SAJJAN THUGGHS...a GURU who had told the DANCING GIRLS sent by Raja Shivnabh to "NOT DANCE" as He was not entertained by such...what would he say when he sees his Sikhs at WEDDING PARTIES ??..alcohol flowing like the River Ganges..even elderly sikhs drunk and flirting with the dancing girls..sikh ladies half naked...etc etc etc..is this where "SIMRAN: leads us towards ?? Mere LIP SYNC would do that...certainly.

Read the Punjabi article here:

http://www.khalsanews.org/newspics/... Nov 13 Satguru Nanak aaja - TS Dupalpuri.htm
 
Oct 21, 2009
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[
Originally posted By Ishna
Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV

1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).
.
Even the Punjabi uses the word 'jap' in this passage which translates to "meditate, repeat" and not "chant"
Hi Sis,
I have gone through your post and thank you for sharing your interpretation.
With your permission , that I presume would be graciously granted, I am tempted to write the meaning of 'Jap' as the translators have given.

I have no doubt that you would be aware of the following.

You may kindly refer to the ‘Angs’ that are give below.
To make the post comprehensive and self contained, given below are the meanings assigned by Sant Singh Khalsa and Prof Sahib Singh ji in regard to 'Simran' and 'Dhayana' as well.

Simran/ Simar and Variants related

Sant Singh khalasa........ Simran....... Page 749
Sahib Singh.............. Meditation.... Page 749

Jap and its variants related
Sant Singh Khalsa ...... Chant and meditate.... Page 761, 762, 775
Sahib Singh....... Jap... Page 761,762,775

Sant Singh Khalsa Chant Page 773
sahib singh Jap Page 773
Dhayana and Variants related
Sant Singh Khalsa ..... Meditate...... Page 760, 776
Sahib Singh......... Jap..... Page 760,776

Sant Singh Khalsa ..... Meditate..... Page 777
Sahib Singh..... Simran........ Page 777

The only idea was to to look at as to how the translators have used the various expressions and as to how Jap, simran and dhyana have an over lapping pattern in so far as their usage and meaning is concerned.

The second idea was to emphasize that the word ‘waheguru’ has been used at various places in Sikh Rehat Maryada that is ancilriical document for all of us and sikhs and the Learned author have emphasized that the term ‘waheguru’ finds little place in Guru Granth and probably should not be used. He has almost discarded this term indirectly. Buit it is is very well accepted by all sikhs whether Khalsa or even sehajdharis.

The term ‘waheguru’ has a customary meaning for Sikhs and is about 500 years old. It is well ingrained in all of us. Even if it does not find extensive usage in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the customs and old traditions that would guide us to take 'waheguru, as the only term For Name of God/Creator. The term is of significance to all of us.

The word ‘waheguru’ to Sikhs is like word ‘Allah’ to Muslims.Old customs and conventions cannot be disregarded. It is that principle that is used and employed while enacting various laws and statutes.

You should forgive me if you find some inconvenience in reading the table that I could not properly present/draw.
Let us give rest to discussion as I have to give a suitable reply to the article [given at Post no. 1 in the thread.]
Please feel free to raise your doubts that would be properly attended to in due course in future.
All errors mine.
 
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Ishna

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Taranjeet ji, Im a little bit confused by your reply, but thanks for your reply. I wasn't arguing over the term 'Waheguru'. I was just making an observation.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Comparative reasoning...
The Ninety Nine Attributes of Allah


In the Holy Qur’an, we read the following verses:
Allah: There is no god but He; His are the Greatest Names. (20:8)
Say: Call upon Allah or call upon the Beneficent God (al-Rahman); whichever you call upon, He has the Greatest Names." (Qur’an, 17:110)
To Allah belong the Greatest Names; therefore, call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His Names..." (Qur’an, 7:180)
In order to familiarize ourselves with Allah's Attributes, we have to consult the Holy Qur’an, traditions, or even common-sense. On page 220 of his Book of Unity (of Allah), Shaikh Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn Babawayh al-Qummi al-Saduq quotes Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq quoting his forefathers quoting the Messenger of Allah saying,
"There are ninety-nine Attributes, one hundred minus one, of Allah; whoever counts them will enter Paradise." He is also quoted saying that whoever learns these Attributes by heart and comprehends their meanings (and acts upon it) will enter Paradise. One should be familiar with the meanings and implications of these names, not just with their count. Nobody can sufficiently be acquainted with the Attributes of Allah as He Himself says in 73:20: "He knows that you cannot (sufficiently) count Him (His Attributes)."

A tradition says, "Derive your manners from the Attributes of Allah." Allah has willed to show His servant His Attributes which collectively describe Him without His Name being a separate part thereof, even though He is not identical to them in essence.
On page 112, Vol. 1, the renown scholar al-Kulaini al-Razi cites Hisham ibn al-Hakam saying that when he once asked Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq about Allah's Attributes and their derivation, as well as the derivation of the word "Allah," the Imam said to him, "O Hisham! The proper noun `Allah' is derived from `ilah;' the Creator requires the existence of creation [to testify to His being its Creator]. This is a noun, not an adjective.
Anyone who worships a name without worshipping what the name stands for is actually committing kufr, apostasy; in reality, he does not worship anything at all. One who worships the name and the meaning is also committing kufr, for he will be worshipping two. Only one who worships the meaning without the name is in line with the concept of Tawhid (Unity of God). Have you understood all of this, O Hisham?"
He answered him in the affirmative, requesting him to provide more explanations, whereupon the Imam said, "There are ninety-nine Attributes of Allah. Had each Attribute been the same as it describes, each one of them would have been a god by itself. But `Allah' is the meaning one deducts once he becomes familiar with all these Attributes. They all, O Hisham, in their collective sense, are not the same as He Himself. Bread is something you eat. Water is something you drink. A garment is something you put on. And fire is something that burns.



Similarly /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH WAH WAH WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio... Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...

This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...
 
Oct 21, 2009
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Similarly /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH WAH WAH WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio... Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...

First of all let me thank you for allowing me to enter into a discussion on the subject that you intend to touch. It is really my privilege and sole prerogative.It is a blessing in disguise. I am giving below Two shabads that may be helpful in this discussion.I shall not discuss the shabads as the meanings are given. I am afraid, if you permit to state, that the exercise would be purely academic only.
Please guide me if I go astray. Your guidance is necessary for me and I hope you will kindly extend. Also forgive me for my words as I have a very limited Vocabulary.

Shabad deals with the Kirtam naam that you have stated [descriptive attributive] name. I agree with you that waheguru is a kirtam Naam.

1. But how to remember the Lord if we do not know 'Sacha Naam' or 'Nirmal Naam' and other names used for the same terms and expressions till we have attained the stage of realization of the Sacha Naam that is not Kirtam Naam.?

2. How do you reconcile of not Japping 'waheguru' as per SRM? Kindly guide us ,Sir.and I shall be very grateful.


1 Ang 1135
Fourth Mehl:
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ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਨਣੇ ॥
That is Your True Congregation, Lord, where the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are heard.
ਸਾਈ = ਉਹੀ {ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ}। ਜਿਤੁ = ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ। ਕੀਰਤਿ = ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ। ਸੁਨਣੇ = ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਏ।
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਉਹੀ ਇਕੱਠ) ਤੇਰੀ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ (ਅਖਵਾ ਸਕਦਾ) ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ, ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਨਾ ਤਿਨ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰੇਵਹ ਨਿਤ ਚਰਣੇ ॥੧॥
The minds of those who listen to the Lord's Name are drenched with bliss; I worship their feet continually. ||1||
ਭੀਨਾ = ਭਿੱਜ ਗਿਆ। ਤਿਨ ਚਰਣੇ = ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨ। ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰੇਵਹ = ਅਸੀਂ ਸੇਵੀਏ, ਮੈਂ ਸੇਵਾਂ ॥੧॥
(ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਹੈ (ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕ ਕੇ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ (ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵਿਚ) ਭਿੱਜ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਮੈਂ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਨੀ (ਆਪਣੀ) ਸੁਭਾਗਤਾ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹਾਂ ॥੧॥

ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ ਤਰਣੇ ॥
Meditating on the Lord, the Life of the World, the mortals cross over.
ਜਗ ਜੀਵਨੁ = ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। ਧਿਆਇ = ਸਿਮਰ ਕੇ। ਤਰਣੇ = (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ) ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘੀਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਹਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇਤੁ ਗਨਣੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Your Names are so many, they are countless, O Lord. This tongue of mine cannot even count them. ||1||Pause||
ਅਸੰਖ = ਅਣ-ਗਿਣਤ {ਸੰਖਿਆ = ਗਿਣਤੀ}। ਹਰਿ = ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! ਜਿਹਵਾ = ਜੀਭ। ਇਤੁ = ਇਸ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਜਿਹਵਾ ਇਤੁ = ਇਸ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ॥੧॥
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਣੇ ਹੋਏ) ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਹਨ ਅਣਗਿਣਤ ਹਨ, ਇਸ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਲੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਣੇ ॥
O GurSikhs, chant the Lord's Name, and sing the Praises of the Lord. Take the Guru's Teachings, and meditate on the Lord.
ਗੁਰਸਿਖ = ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖੋ! ਲੇ = ਲੈ ਕੇ।
ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖੋ! ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰਿਆ ਕਰੋ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਗਾਵਿਆ ਕਰੋ, ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿਆ ਕਰੋ।

ਜੋ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੇਰਾ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖ ਘਣੇ ॥੨॥
Whoever listens to the Guru's Teachings - that humble being receives countless comforts and pleasures from the Lord. ||2||
ਕੇਰਾ = ਦਾ। ਘਣੇ = ਬਹੁਤ ॥੨॥
ਹੇ ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖੋ! ਜਿਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ (ਸਰਧਾ ਨਾਲ) ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁਖ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨॥

ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਵੰਸੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਮਾਤਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨ ਜਣੇ ॥
Blessed is the ancestry, blessed is the father, and blessed is that mother who gave birth to this humble servant.
ਧੰਨੁ = ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲਾ। ਵੰਸੁ = ਕੁਲ, ਖ਼ਾਨਦਾਨ। ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ ਨੇ। ਜਨ = ਭਗਤ। ਜਣੇ = ਜੰਮੇ, ਜਨਮ ਦਿੱਤਾ।
ਭਾਗਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਕੁਲ, ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਪਿਉ ਤੇ ਧੰਨ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਮਾਂ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਭਗਤ-ਜਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਨਮ ਦਿੱਤਾ।

ਜਿਨ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੇ ਸਾਚੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬਣੇ ॥੩॥
Those who meditate on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and morsel of food - those humble servants of the Lord look beautiful in the True Court of the Lord. ||3||
ਜਿਨ = ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ {ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। 'ਜਿਨਿ' {ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ}। ਸਾਸਿ = (ਹਰੇਕ) ਸਾਹ ਨਾਲ। ਗਿਰਾਸਿ = (ਹਰੇਕ) ਗਿਰਾਹੀ ਨਾਲ। ਸੇ = ਉਹ {ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। ਸਾਚੀ = ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੀ। ਬਣੇ = ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲੇ ਹੋਏ ॥੩॥
ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਰੇਕ ਸਾਹ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਗਿਰਾਹੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਸੋਭਾ ਵਾਲੇ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੩॥

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਗਮ ਨਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਰਣੇ ॥
O Lord, Har, Har, Your Names are profound and infinite; Your devotees cherish them deep within.
ਅਗਮ = ਅਪਹੁੰਚ। ਧਰਣੇ = ਰੱਖੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ।
ਹੇ ਹਰੀ! (ਤੇਰੇ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ) ਤੇਰੇ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਹਨ, ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਹ ਨਾਮ ਆਪਣੇ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਵਣੇ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
Servant Nanak has obtained the wisdom of the Guru's Teachings; meditating on the Lord, Har, Har, he crosses over to the other side. ||4||3||7||
ਜਨਿ = ਜਨ ਨੇ, (ਜਿਸ) ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇ। ਪਾਰਿ ਪਵਣੇ = ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਿਸ ਜਿਸ ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਮੱਤ ਉਤੇ ਤੁਰ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥



2. GIven below is a second shabad that states there is another kind of Naam that is made by Him.


Ang 463
ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ ॥ He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name.
ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥ Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.
ਦਾਤਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਸਿ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥ You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.
ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੋਈ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇ ਲੈਸਹਿ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਕਵਾਉ ॥ You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.
ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥੧॥ Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||

3. Both the shabads are relevant to the discussion.

This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...

1.Respected Gyani ji, we do not know who might have attained Brahmgyan and how many might have got Supreme state of merging into Naam or Sabad or shabad. I have no idea about this.

2. I have already given my stand about the term 'waheguru' and I find it so beautiful that I cannot describe. It is the most beautiful thing that has happened to me


3.The initiative for getting passage to Pakistan [for visit to Gurudwara] can be initiated through respective Governments of Your country and my country or for that matter each and every country where sikhs reside.One should make efforts to do this after all you and we constitute the Panth.
 
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Comparative reasoning...
The Ninety Nine Attributes of Allah


In the Holy Qur’an, we read the following verses:
Allah: There is no god but He; His are the Greatest Names. (20:8)
Say: Call upon Allah or call upon the Beneficent God (al-Rahman); whichever you call upon, He has the Greatest Names." (Qur’an, 17:110)
To Allah belong the Greatest Names; therefore, call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His Names..." (Qur’an, 7:180)
In order to familiarize ourselves with Allah's Attributes, we have to consult the Holy Qur’an, traditions, or even common-sense. On page 220 of his Book of Unity (of Allah), Shaikh Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn Babawayh al-Qummi al-Saduq quotes Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq quoting his forefathers quoting the Messenger of Allah saying,
"There are ninety-nine Attributes, one hundred minus one, of Allah; whoever counts them will enter Paradise." He is also quoted saying that whoever learns these Attributes by heart and comprehends their meanings (and acts upon it) will enter Paradise. One should be familiar with the meanings and implications of these names, not just with their count. Nobody can sufficiently be acquainted with the Attributes of Allah as He Himself says in 73:20: "He knows that you cannot (sufficiently) count Him (His Attributes)."

A tradition says, "Derive your manners from the Attributes of Allah." Allah has willed to show His servant His Attributes which collectively describe Him without His Name being a separate part thereof, even though He is not identical to them in essence.
On page 112, Vol. 1, the renown scholar al-Kulaini al-Razi cites Hisham ibn al-Hakam saying that when he once asked Imam Ja`fer al-Sadiq about Allah's Attributes and their derivation, as well as the derivation of the word "Allah," the Imam said to him, "O Hisham! The proper noun `Allah' is derived from `ilah;' the Creator requires the existence of creation [to testify to His being its Creator]. This is a noun, not an adjective.
Anyone who worships a name without worshipping what the name stands for is actually committing kufr, apostasy; in reality, he does not worship anything at all. One who worships the name and the meaning is also committing kufr, for he will be worshipping two. Only one who worships the meaning without the name is in line with the concept of Tawhid (Unity of God). Have you understood all of this, O Hisham?"
He answered him in the affirmative, requesting him to provide more explanations, whereupon the Imam said, "There are ninety-nine Attributes of Allah. Had each Attribute been the same as it describes, each one of them would have been a god by itself. But `Allah' is the meaning one deducts once he becomes familiar with all these Attributes. They all, O Hisham, in their collective sense, are not the same as He Himself. Bread is something you eat. Water is something you drink. A garment is something you put on. And fire is something that burns.



Similarly /hari/Raam/Govind/Narayan/ETC ETC ETC are DESCRIPTIVE ATTRIBUTES and once we GET that..we EXCLAIM>>>WAH WAH WAH WAHGURU....How GREAT YOU TRULY ARE !! Waheguru waheguru wahe jio... Now similar to Hisham in the above context..a Sikh who "worships" the WORD WAHEGURU..is actually peforming an utterly useless act. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji describes way way MORE than just 99 attributes of THE CREATOR...and we SIKHS are supposed to IMBIBE those in our Daily Lives to CHANGE...TRANSFORM..into BETTER HUMANS...rather than waste hours daily LIP SYNCING...

This si the Basic reason why the MILLIONS of Wahegur Chants/Nitnems/Ardasses/Akhand paaths/Kirtan Darbars/Mahan Katha samagams /Nagar Kiratns etc etc have not achieved ANYTHING...not even succeeded in allowing FREE Passage to nanakanna sahib !! after 65 YEARS of such...

Respected Gyani ji,
Before I start writing I fully appreciate your view point except for the name 'waheguru'.I do not know why you have appreciated my post. It was given to fortify your statements.
Yes, it is true that it is through Bani that we can get Naam and there is no other way. Kirtam Naam is meant to increase our concentration and focus so that we get the naam by practicing Bani only.

Coming to your above statement that is colored, states that God has limited attributes . I think this statement goes against sikh philosophy. Our 'waheguru' has no limits. He is infinite hence unfathomable. His attributes and virtues cannot be counted.
With this I close this chapter. I stand convinced that Naam can be obtained only thru. Bani. I might have hurt you in the process and I entreat your forgiveness. Kindly forgive me. I never meant to disrespect you.

Your logic, except for the above i.e 99 attributes , is perfectly alright and I appreciate your view point , again I seek your forgiveness which you will grant taking me as an obstinate son. I take your leave now......
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Respected Gyani ji,
Before I start writing I fully appreciate your view point except for the name 'waheguru'.I do not know why you have appreciated my post. It was given to fortify your statements.
Yes, it is true that it is through Bani that we can get Naam and there is no other way. Kirtam Naam is meant to increase our concentration and focus so that we get the naam by practicing Bani only.

Coming to your above statement that is colored, states that God has limited attributes . I think this statement goes against sikh philosophy. Our 'waheguru' has no limits. He is infinite hence unfathomable. His attributes and virtues cannot be counted.
With this I close this chapter. I stand convinced that Naam can be obtained only thru. Bani. I might have hurt you in the process and I entreat your forgiveness. Kindly forgive me. I never meant to disrespect you.

Your logic, except for the above i.e 99 attributes , is perfectly alright and I appreciate your view point , again I seek your forgiveness which you will grant taking me as an obstinate son. I take your leave now......


Taranjeet Singh ji,

forget the thought that you hurt me. no way.
The above post is titled COMPARATIVE RELIGION...its NOT GURMATT...just for comparison...to stimulate the thought process.

Secondly you would have noticed that the SGGS calls the Muslim "KANNA" one eyed....and this "limited attributes" is one reason.The CREATOR is BEYOND LIMITS...beyond any counting..CORRECT.

Regards

Jarnail Singh
 

Harry Haller

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Gentlemen, (you know who you are), I would like to bring this thread up again as I feel the leading post makes an excellent point, as we have new blood who also find this topic interesting, we could make this an excellent return base for the topic of Simran, for any new points that may be apt,
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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my feelings, thoughts and experiences of Simran are somewhat explained on my Blog:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/blogs...rit-vela-blog-difficulties-joys.html#comments

If anyone is interested please read it...it contains many great links to further resources...

i don;t really have anything further to say...apart from

1. keep trying to live an honest life.
2. Keep trying to share your earning and time with the less fortunate
3. Keep immersing yourself in Gurbani and Gurmanter with 100% focus through daily life and daily actions and during Amrit Vela..

Let the beautiful vibration of Gurbani enrapture your mind, feel it flowing through you as you contemplate it's message, as you contemplate the greatness of the formless, and infinite, that exists within your very being...feel it...

He is right there...and within your reach...hold your arm out...He WILL come!


Gurbani is TRUE...i never used to believe it...but i do now...shaken and awoken by Guru Ji

Words Cannot describe the joy one receives when your doubts start to dissolve and Gurbani is proven to to be True by Waheguru Ji...wondrous, truely wondrous it is...

and my consciousness hasn't even skimmed the surface of the depth of this infinite ocean....very much excited, very focussed

very happy to be on the path
happy that others are already walking with me
happy that others are being inspired to also walk it
happy that others are questioning it, contemplating it and observing their doubts...

All is Grace, What else can i say...

peace and blessings of Waheguru Ji to the Sat Sangat
 

Harry Haller

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Chazji

Although some would say we are going round in circles, I would personally disagree, some of what you say resonates with me, and I feel some of what I have said has resonated with you, so the circles get smaller and smaller.

What would your thoughts be on the subject of the word Waheguru not being present in the SGGS, thus making every reference to that word in the middle of a shabad, in effect blasphemy?
 

chazSingh

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Feb 20, 2012
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Chazji

Although some would say we are going round in circles, I would personally disagree, some of what you say resonates with me, and I feel some of what I have said has resonated with you, so the circles get smaller and smaller.

What would your thoughts be on the subject of the word Waheguru not being present in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, thus making every reference to that word in the middle of a shabad, in effect blasphemy?

Who is it a Blasphemy to?

the people on this forum? my fellow sikhs around the world? to GOD? lol

If i am accepted into the arms of my Guru, and enveloped in the sights and sounds of his wondrous nature...and i have the word Waheguru on my mind in awe of his wonder...

then how can it be Blasphemy? lol God obviously didn't have an issue with it lol

His acceptance is all that matters...
then whatever you or anyone else thinks becomes meaningless my friend...

So recite, contemplate and soak in his love...and in his bani...

and when He takes you by the arm, scream out WAH, WAH....WAHE....WAHEGURU from the top of your voice...because that is what HE is WONDROUS...beyond description, dispeller of darkness!

over and out...good luck for the rest of this thread my friend :)

God Bless
 

Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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Who is it a Blasphemy to?

I would say that inserting words that are not present in shabads is a blasphemy, or more commonly known as Kachi bani, what is stopping me from inserting say the words 'lady gaga' into a shabad?

If i am accepted into the arms of my Guru, and enveloped in the sights and sounds of his wondrous nature...and i have the word Waheguru on my mind in awe of his wonder...

but neither waheguru nor lady gaga appear in the SGGS according to Mr Dhillon

then how can it be Blasphemy? God obviously didn't have an issue with it

now then as you have replied in this thread, I am assuming you have read the first post, this clearly states that the word waheguru is absent from the entirety of the SGGS, so if we are to understand that the SGGS is the word of God, then God clearly did have an issue with it, otherwise he would have included it....

His acceptance is all that matters...

well quite, but it appears the word has neither his acceptance nor his validation

then whatever you or anyone else thinks becomes meaningless my friend...

absolutely, my friend :)

So recite, contemplate and soak in his love...and in his bani...

once again, it is not his bani, anymore than lady gaga

and when He takes you by the arm, scream out WAH, WAH....WAHE....WAHEGURU from the top of your voice...because that is what HE is WONDROUS...beyond description, dispeller of darkness!

he might turn around and ask what are you saying, and ask where did you get this word, because it clearly is not from him..........
 

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