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Hard Talk Sikhi versus Khalsa

ManSinha

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Dec 29, 2019
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Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa! Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!!

I come from a family of Bandai Sikhs who came to Bombay after Partition in 1947. Growing up in the metropolis I have had the chance to meet and intermingle with Keshadhari Sikhs who have adopted practices that are shunned upon and clean shaven Sehajdhari individuals who recite the Japji, Rehiras and Kirtan Sohila religiously and bow their heads only to Guru Granth Sahib. After emigrating to the US almost three decades ago - I have run into many individuals who are disillusioned with their own faith and want to learn more about Sikhi but are hesitant to accept the tenets of the Khalsa. Even in some local Gurdwaras - only Keshdhari individuals are allowed into management. Is this fair?

The way I personally see it - choosing to be a Khalsa - yes it a personal choice that every one makes - it cannot be foisted or forced - brings one the special grace of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj - "Haun Khalse Kao, Khalsa Mero" and yet I feel that accepting the Sehajdhari individuals will in the long run lead to the Quam increasing in size and importance as the message spreads. Having done a bit of comparative religion study - outside of Sanatan Dharma and Vedanta - Sikhism is the only religion that is straightforward and endeavors to bring each individual along without any exclusions.

Let us posit a hypothetical scenario - if a thousand individuals want to chant Waheguru and learn about Japji and Jaap but are hesitant to embrace the tenets of Khalsa - should we turn them away? Should it be all or nothing?

I would like respectful comments preferably backed up by why the individual is reasoning thus - not mere rants or outbursts
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,

To be Sikh is beginning on the path, and Khalsa is a final achieved way. This who choose to be righteous always will taken this path. Though every human feels to be right in one's own way, but guide is Gurus Bani, that is philosphy, on which dharma or disciple is given a test of righteousness.

Initiation shall lead to sooner or later as Khalsa. If it is not there then learning or preaching is an issue.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

Sikhilove1

Writer
SPNer
Aug 14, 2019
64
13
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa! Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!!

I come from a family of Bandai Sikhs who came to Bombay after Partition in 1947. Growing up in the metropolis I have had the chance to meet and intermingle with Keshadhari Sikhs who have adopted practices that are shunned upon and clean shaven Sehajdhari individuals who recite the Japji, Rehiras and Kirtan Sohila religiously and bow their heads only to Guru Granth Sahib. After emigrating to the US almost three decades ago - I have run into many individuals who are disillusioned with their own faith and want to learn more about Sikhi but are hesitant to accept the tenets of the Khalsa. Even in some local Gurdwaras - only Keshdhari individuals are allowed into management. Is this fair?

The way I personally see it - choosing to be a Khalsa - yes it a personal choice that every one makes - it cannot be foisted or forced - brings one the special grace of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj - "Haun Khalse Kao, Khalsa Mero" and yet I feel that accepting the Sehajdhari individuals will in the long run lead to the Quam increasing in size and importance as the message spreads. Having done a bit of comparative religion study - outside of Sanatan Dharma and Vedanta - Sikhism is the only religion that is straightforward and endeavors to bring each individual along without any exclusions.

Let us posit a hypothetical scenario - if a thousand individuals want to chant Waheguru and learn about Japji and Jaap but are hesitant to embrace the tenets of Khalsa - should we turn them away? Should it be all or nothing?

I would like respectful comments preferably backed up by why the individual is reasoning thus - not mere rants or outbursts
The Khalsa isn’t just us here on earth. Expand your heart, it’s the residents of Sachkandh, Nanak, the Gurus who live eternally, bhagats on other planets, other realms. We as humans tend to fall into ego believing the universe revolves around us and that we are all there is. That’s far from the case.

There are bhagats who have never looked at the Gurus teachings, and yet have learned tenets of Truth through experience, and listening to the Truth within.
 

ManSinha

SPNer
Dec 29, 2019
6
2
50
Sikhlove 1 - ji
That is not the purpose of discussion on this thread. I too recite like many individuals daily "Lakh patalla pataal Lakh agaasa agaas......."
So, no I do not have the geocentric view that is espoused in some other belief systems
I am merely referring to a situation we have currently and would like opinions on that - the philosophy of the brahmand can be a topic of another thread
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,

Khalsa is a thought, speech and action. And Roop for some as an identity. One may choose.

During times it becomes important and one can not deny. Times have forms and one has to adhere mandate of those times and not as a ritual.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
5,769
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Should it be all or nothing?
but it is not all or nothing, how many of those that follow the tenets are following badly translated or badly understood aspects of Sikhism? Sikhism should be a journey that is free and open to everyone to proceed at their own pace and understanding. Being in possession of all 5 K's is no guarantee or confirmation of anything.
 

ManSinha

SPNer
Dec 29, 2019
6
2
50
Well Harry - I have done some theology comparisons and your point about translations is well taken. For example if you look at the KJV, NIV, ASV etc there are nuanced differences. But for some of us the original guru's bani still makes sense if one understands hindi or punjabi. Of course Guru Gobind Singh is a class apart having written in so many languages. I think the pertinent point in your post (according to me) is "should be" but is it? I have found those that are not Amritdhari shunned by those who are. I have found Sehajdhari's excluded from leadership positions and discussions by the Keshdhari's - does this not create a schism in the Qu'am?
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Well Harry - I have done some theology comparisons and your point about translations is well taken. For example if you look at the KJV, NIV, ASV etc there are nuanced differences.
Nuanced differences does not cover the enormous chasm between outlooks and opinions in Sikhism. Should we eat meat?, are we going to be reborn? is God going to change the very fabric of life because of an Ardass?, these are just a few of the many questions that divide us.

What we do know is that Sikhism started life as a pragmatic, practical way of life that shunned all superstition, ritual and outward show of spirituality, yet go to any Gurudwara, and these are embraced fully.


I have found those that are not Amritdhari shunned by those who are. I have found Sehajdhari's excluded from leadership positions and discussions by the Keshdhari's - does this not create a schism in the Qu'am?

With respect the world is a big place, the situation is actually reversed in some Gurudwaras, with the management being all monas.

I guess you see a man in a turban, you see a fellow Sikh, which is where the statement
should we turn them away?
comes from.

Who is we? what authority does this 'we' have to turn anyone away? by we do you mean those that display the 5 k's? Uhm sorry but looking like a Sikh is no guarantee of being a Sikh, and looking like a Sikh gives no power in accepting people or turning them away.

To me a Sikh is simply someone that lives in consonance with the world and treats others as they would expect to be treated.
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal.

When the system is driven as per Gurmatt principles and choice of leader is with those principles. Rehat Maryada for sikh leader shall be reasonable to the choice of food they have, for eg leader having non veg, co leaders create problem, attending functions and participating in friends religion functions, co leaders have problem. So few hypocrites are left on top, those who can make dual drama of public and personal life can only opt to be a Sikh Leader. Than he may do any play.

Why leaders are not emerging in India and Punjab there shall be change inmleadership after every 2 years. Either we are not giving training to youth for higher functions or Sakats dont allow youth to come forward and challenge there leadership.

They want to remain as best for public. Change and growth is life , sticking to operative power is against laws of Nature, it will stale and foul.

Is there any Rehat for leadership. How many Sikh can be chosen as a leader while adhering principles. How youth can be trained for participation in leadership. Or systems need a review to choose a leader, where any human can caste vote.

Why to kerb voters???

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 

ManSinha

SPNer
Dec 29, 2019
6
2
50
Nuanced differences does not cover the enormous chasm between outlooks and opinions in Sikhism. Should we eat meat?, are we going to be reborn? is God going to change the very fabric of life because of an Ardass?, these are just a few of the many questions that divide us.
But is any of that relevant? "Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth" -

To those who raise these issues - I have a simple question - quote me the lines from Guru Sahib that supports that position. If they cannot then they should withdraw gracefully.

As regards the question of Ardaas and doing of Paath for obtaining some material benefit - I have provided my viewpoint in another thread. I am of the opinion that it is a matter between the Sikh and her/his Guru and no one else. I have asked for a lot many things in life. I believe that I have been given what I needed but not everything I wanted. There is a difference.

Who is we? what authority does this 'we' have to turn anyone away? by we do you mean those that display the 5 k's? Uhm sorry but looking like a Sikh is no guarantee of being a Sikh, and looking like a Sikh gives no power in accepting people or turning them away.
And that is exactly the question I am putting forth? What gives anyone the right to turn another away from Sikhi? The Guru-Sahibaan welcomed any and all without reservation. Why have we as a community strayed from that?
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
SPNer
Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal.

Issue is mixed. Personal Religious and Political.

At personal level all can follow Guru Granth Sahib

At religious level all can go to Sikh shrines irrespective of caste creed gender etc or other discrimination

Third is (religious and social) politics, which is to protect rights and policies of followers. Now there is a Kerb, where practitioner of followers are required. ie Where purity of thoughts Mental elevation and physical practices are also required.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given this form for meta physical identification.

Discussion is of 1st 2nd or 3rd point.

Hope if it is for 3rd than querry is resolved. Policy implementer has to be self adherent first at Mental and Physical level both than only 1 and 2 will work.

At 1st and 2nd level there is no bias and at 3rd level bias and fundamentals are required but the way recruit done at sociol political level will govern the philosophy.

So its question of leadership.

One may have kept thought but if not implemented what is use. Khalsa is fun and love of Sacrifice for others, for elevated living.
 
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Harry Haller

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Jan 31, 2011
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But is any of that relevant? "Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru Maneyo Granth" -
sure it is, you have to first define Sikh, who is a Sikh? the one that does not eat meat? the one that believes in reincarnation? the one that spends a fortune on his daughters wedding and ensures it is to the same caste?

To those who raise these issues - I have a simple question - quote me the lines from Guru Sahib that supports that position. If they cannot then they should withdraw gracefully.
This is impossible and hugely dangerous, The SGGS was never meant to be quoted from by way of single lines or even a few lines, the message is contained in each shabad in its entirety, quoting a few lines to back up an argument does not show the context of the entire shabad, it is misleading and self serving, back in the day, years ago, in a debate such as this, we would back up our arguents with entire shabads, and then our translation of the entire shabad, not relying on available translations as people do.

As regards the question of Ardaas and doing of Paath for obtaining some material benefit - I have provided my viewpoint in another thread. I am of the opinion that it is a matter between the Sikh and her/his Guru and no one else. I have asked for a lot many things in life. I believe that I have been given what I needed but not everything I wanted. There is a difference.
Then why is not smoking and drinking a matter between the Sikh and the Guru? I consider it quite blasphemous to ask the Guru for anything, if the Guru wanted you to have something, surely he would give it to you, asking and praying and begging the Guru are the actions of a spoiled child, especially given that a central message in Sikhism is to view all situations and circumstances equally, pain, pleasure, sadness, happiness, its all pretty much the same once you get down to it, nice, bad, its all subjective.

And that is exactly the question I am putting forth? What gives anyone the right to turn another away from Sikhi? The Guru-Sahibaan welcomed any and all without reservation. Why have we as a community strayed from that?
because we are not Sikhs anymore, we just look like them, or at least some of us do. Sikhism is now concerned only with the look, and the perception, I cannot remember the last time I talked to a Sikh who I felt embodied the higher ideals of Sikhism.
 

ManSinha

SPNer
Dec 29, 2019
6
2
50
sure it is, you have to first define Sikh, who is a Sikh? the one that does not eat meat? the one that believes in reincarnation? the one that spends a fortune on his daughters wedding and ensures it is to the same caste?
Back to the original - where is any of this spelt out in the one message that is incontrovertible for those that call themselves a Sikh?

This is impossible and hugely dangerous, The SGGS was never meant to be quoted from by way of single lines or even a few lines, the message is contained in each shabad in its entirety, quoting a few lines to back up an argument does not show the context of the entire shabad, it is misleading and self serving, back in the day, years ago, in a debate such as this, we would back up our arguents with entire shabads, and then our translation of the entire shabad, not relying on available translations as people do.
When I said "lines" I meant anything - from a few paragraphs to the entire bani such as Sukhmani

Then why is not smoking and drinking a matter between the Sikh and the Guru? I consider it quite blasphemous to ask the Guru for anything, if the Guru wanted you to have something, surely he would give it to you, asking and praying and begging the Guru are the actions of a spoiled child, especially given that a central message in Sikhism is to view all situations and circumstances equally, pain, pleasure, sadness, happiness, its all pretty much the same once you get down to it, nice, bad, its all subjective.
There are actually references in the Guru Granth Sahib to those - I can quote you the relevant bani - also while you may consider asking blasphemous - there is no harm - in fact the bani says as much "Do-ay kar jodh maango ik daana" -
Frankly what you state is an opinion - I would like to see that backed by actual bani that says so - I am personally imperfect and hence I ask - however I ask the Universe - Waheguru - I do not see an issue with that

because we are not Sikhs anymore, we just look like them, or at least some of us do. Sikhism is now concerned only with the look, and the perception, I cannot remember the last time I talked to a Sikh who I felt embodied the higher ideals of Sikhism.
I would tend to agree with that statement in many ways - the question remains - what are the solutions. What can a single / small group of individuals do to recover what is perhaps the easiest and most straightforward path to the Almighty
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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⁷would tend to agree with that statement in many ways - the question remains - what are the solutions. What can a single / small group of individuals do to recover what is perhaps the easiest and most straightforward path to the Almighty

Only solution is aware people shall simplify and spends on buildings and rituals, work on spiritual education and practice.

Concern was Sikh and Khalsa which is already addressed.

Without spiritual education and training right spirit of human action and behaviour can not be transformed by default it Carrie's animal instincts which can only be tamed by getting blessing of CREATOR along with his or her own effort. This is achieved by followance of PATH.

If the purpose of Gurudwara and Seeker remains to get Parsad or Langar or Resolve problems and desire. And not the TRUTH awareness, help anyone with food, medical aid, anyway, but the first help is transformation. Connecting to SELF. for help of others.

Else life is.lost in discussion arguements for intellectuals and in false passions for ignorant.

SERVICE for a cause will be missing to lead a elevated life.

For Start or Beginners Try to serve others regularly for five minutes regularly as required by others without demand of money or other interest as Nature has given even wealth to us, as a human body.

I promise to give food to someone, but fail in regularity, it is difficult, to develop habit to serve.

Great are transformed who serves.

Later the event can be enlarged.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 
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Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Back to the original - where is any of this spelt out in the one message that is incontrovertible for those that call themselves a Sikh?
Please clarify 'one message'

When I said "lines" I meant anything - from a few paragraphs to the entire bani such as Sukhmani
too little and too much, I think an entire shabad is adequate personally.
There are actually references in the Guru Granth Sahib to those - I can quote you the relevant bani - also while you may consider asking blasphemous - there is no harm - in fact the bani says as much "Do-ay kar jodh maango ik daana" -
could you please reference "Do-ay kar jodh maango ik daana", thank you

Frankly what you state is an opinion
of course, and it is no different for you, yours is also just an opinion.
I would like to see that backed by actual bani that says so - I am personally imperfect and hence I ask - however I ask the Universe - Waheguru - I do not see an issue with that
We are different people, I accept whatever comes my way quite indifferently, its all an adventure, I would not dream of asking the Universe for anything, for a start it has nothing to offer me.

let us set some common ground before we proceed, what facets of Sikhism do you hold dear, and to you are undeniably what a Sikh is?
 

Dalvinder Singh Grewal

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Jan 3, 2010
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Sikh vs Khalsa is an interesting debate. It was indeed needed to clear the confusion. Sikhs are those who follow teachings of the Gurus, maybe any Guru. There were Nanakpnthis who once dominated Bihar (half of it), Bengal, Orissa, Sindh. Banerji now prefers to call them Other Sikhs because they are not mainstream Sikhs. Then they are Sikhs of 6th and 9th Guru e.g., Sikligars, Wanjaras, Satnamis, Badnoris etc which the mainstream Sikhs consider undeveloped Sikhs. Then we have 10th Guru Sikhs most of whom call them as Khalsas and mainstream Sikhs and follow the rituals started thereafter. not necessarily they follow teachings of other Gurus. They have been in power during Baba Banda Singh, Misls and Maharaj Ranjit Singh's times and they call themselves as Mainstream Sikhs and dominate with an intention to negate the others. If we consider all Sikhs they are around 15 crores as of now in a conservative estimate out of this around 2 crores now account themselves as Sikhs per the population surveys. Out of these again all are not Khalsas. This excludes Sehjdharis as well. At the most, it is odd 10-12 lakhs who project themselves as Khalsas. Most of them are the offsprings of the powerful, the ones connected with Gurwaras e.g., Granthis, kirtnias, Babas etc. Losing out 13 crores and considering themselves as true Sikhs has affected the significance of the Sikhs. in the Vote Raj 15 crores are quite a number to project themselves at the national scene but the few dominators do not allow this for their benefits and give this cry of Sikhs and Khalsa. This must end. All the Sikhs belong to Sikhism hence be considered equal, maybe some follow all tenants and some follow a few but have faith in the Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib. We have to together united if we wasnt to exist. United we stand divided we fall.
 

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