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Tejwant Singh

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Shaheediyan,

Guru Fateh.

Lets follow the KIS ( Keep it simple) doctrine. We all know Ik Ong Kaar as explained in Mool Mantar is:-

Nirbhau= Fearless (only absence of fear breeds love).
Nirvair= Having ill will towards none.

How can Ik Ong Kaar be a destroyer as you claim He/She/It to be?

Regards

Tejwant
 

Shaheediyan

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Jun 10, 2006
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Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh||

Dear Tejwant Singh Ji,

I am happy to KIS with you.

Vaheguru being Nirbhau and Nirvair does not contradict the fact that he creates, sustains and destroys creation.

We can not even begin to fathom the use of these words in context to Par-braham, by no means, is this ustat supposed to give Parm-atama human characteristics, it is supposed to show the learners that Vaheguru is unfathomable.

If he destroys, why does it need to be out of fear or hate? If he destroys, he does so because it is his will, nature destroys, it doesn't do it out of hate or fear...

In Mul Mantar we learn that Vaheguru is Akaal - beyond time, beyond death... meaning his creation is under kaal - time/death, as per his will. It is the image of immortality therefore clearly tells us that he is the master of mortality - eventual destruction.

The aim is to understand we cannot fathom or understand the play of Vaheguru through our ant like intellect.

Who destroys sin?

Who destroys darkness?

Who destroys ignorenance?

Who destroys ego?

Who destroys death?


Shah-e-Shahaan-Shah Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji tells us:

ਸਰਬ ਪਾਲਕ ਸਰਬ ਘਾਲਕ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਪੁਨਿ ਕਾਲ ॥

Thou art the Creator Sustainer, Inspirer and Destroyer of all.


In life, it is only our mind that seeks to blind us, our soul allows us to see clearly - Vaheguru is Nirgun and Sargun - He exists outside of his creation and within... it's not for us to fathom his power, but to submit to his will.
 

spnadmin

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My meager responses to some questions posed above.

Who destroys sin?

So far, no one. If anyone has tried it hasn't worked.

Who destroys darkness?
Same as in item 1.

Who destroys ignorenance?
Supposedly Vishnu. :roll:

Who destroys ego?
Misunderstanding of Bani. Egotism must be "Burned away" through simran and meditation on bani, with Guru's grace.

Who destroys death?
Unfortunately death is still hanging around (cycle of life and death) -- save for the blessed who threw themselves at the lotus feet of Waheguru and their papers were torn up.

God is always cheerful!
 

Shaheediyan

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Jun 10, 2006
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Dear Aad Bhenji,

Vaheguru is the destroyer of all these things, as you most likely repeat and do vichaar on every morning whilst reciting NITNEM:

As an example - the 10th King of Kings says:

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੰ ਸਰੂਪੇ ਕੁਕਰਮੰ ਪ੍ਰਣਾਸੀ ॥
Salutation to Thee O Generosity-Embodiment Lord! Salutation to Thee O Sins-Destroyer Lord!

ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਸਰਬ ਭੰਜਨ ਆਦਿ ਰੂਪ ਅਸੂਤ ॥
Thou, the Unborn Primal Entity, art the Destroyer of all egocentric people.

"Who destroys death?
Unfortunately death is still hanging around (cycle of life and death) -- save for the blessed who threw themselves at the lotus feet of Waheguru and their papers were torn up."

ਭਵ ਭੰਜਨ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਅਰਿ ਗੰਜਨ ਹੈਂ ॥
O Lord! Thou art the destroyer of the cycle of transmigration. O Lord! Thou art the conqueror of enemies.


The main problem here seems to be our very limited understanding of these terms, which is why we think the God, as a destructive force is contradictory to God being a merciful, creative, compassionate force - 10th King of Kings says:

ਸਰਬ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਹਰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਦਯਾਲ ਅਦੇ੍ਵਖ ॥
He is Creator and Destroyer of all, He is without malice and Merciful to all.

The Lord is all things and he is within and without...

To finish:

ਸਰਬੰ ਹੰਤਾ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਗੰਤਾ ॥
Thou art the Destroyer of all. Thou art the Goer to all.
 

simpy

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Mar 28, 2006
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"We all know Ik Ong Kaar as explained in Mool Mantar is:-

Nirbhau= Fearless (only absence of fear breeds love).
Nirvair= Having ill will towards none.

How can Ik Ong Kaar be a destroyer"

Respected Tejwant Ji,

First HE IS BEING STATED AS " KARTA PURKH " the only doer.

Then Guru Ji clearify it even more by saying HE IS WITHOUT FEAR AND ENIMITY. The purpose here seems very clear. Guru Ji wants us to know ALL IS DONE BY HIM, THROUGH HIM, UNDER HIS ORDER. BUT HE IS NOT DOING ANYTHING UNDER ANY PRESSURE of hate or fear. GURBANI tells us "HE IS POORAN ANAND, SEHAJ".

THINK Respected Tejwant ji think, think about it under the context of TUK:

kar kar karna likh le jah, aape bij aape hi khah ....


me neech takes it like this- GOD MATERILIZES OUR THOUGHTS( jo jo mann di dharti ch manukh beejdaa hai, Waheguru reward us with the same kind of crop)

When He is referred as a Destroyer, he is also reffered as 'the Creator'-- in all "the KARTA", WHO IS NOT SEPERATE FROM HIS CREATION. So even by being a Destroyer, GUESS WHAT IS BEING DONE BY HIM??? ALL.

HE IS ALL, HE IS DOING ALL, HE IS IN ALL. SO EVEN WHEN THE PROCESS OF DESTRUCTION IS GOING ON- WHAT IS HAPPENING?


humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
 

Tejwant Singh

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Respected Tejwant Ji,

First HE IS BEING STATED AS " KARTA PURKH " the only doer.

Then Guru Ji clearify it even more by saying HE IS WITHOUT FEAR AND ENIMITY. The purpose here seems very clear. Guru Ji wants us to know ALL IS DONE BY HIM, THROUGH HIM, UNDER HIS ORDER. BUT HE IS NOT DOING ANYTHING UNDER ANY PRESSURE of hate or fear. GURBANI tells us "HE IS POORAN ANAND, SEHAJ".

THINK Respected Tejwant ji think, think about it under the context of TUK:

kar kar karna likh le jah, aape bij aape hi khah ....


me neech takes it like this- GOD MATERILIZES OUR THOUGHTS( jo jo mann di dharti ch manukh beejdaa hai, Waheguru reward us with the same kind of crop)

When He is referred as a Destroyer, he is also reffered as 'the Creator'-- in all the KARTA, WHO IS NOT SEPERATE FROM HIS CREATION. So even by being a Destroyer, GUESS WHAT IS BEING DONE BY HIM???


humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

Surinder Kaur ji,

You are making the same mistake as Shaheediyan I am a afriad. You are contradicting yourself. If you accept IK ONG KAAR as ALL LOVING- SANS FEAR- NO RANCOR towads any one the way He/She/it is described in Mool Mantar then how can he be the opposite too? We humans live in duality. IK ONG KAAR is sans duality.

To be a destoryer is negative. Our VAHAGURU is not negative. VAHEGURU is always cheerful. We have to come out of the Hinduism way of thinking where God is a deity personified. Nothing like that in Sikhi.

Tejwant

Ps:- One request. Just express your viewpoint in agreement or in disagreement, allow others to think. Your urging them to think... think may indicate to the reader that it is your assumption that others do not think as sharply as you do.:)
 
Jul 13, 2004
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Veer ji,

While reading your post, only thing came to my mind, and thought of writing here. I do not think that Guru Gobind Singh ji had any animosity towards anyone in the battle-field while killing mughals. To me, it sounds like He may be having the same emotion as someone gets while cutting a rotten part (of own body), or perhaps even a good part. Inspite of everything during His life, still He was eager to settle down for a harmonius surroundings.

Perhaps similar to it is a father-son relation.

Bhull Chukk maaf ji.

Regards.
 

Shaheediyan

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Jun 10, 2006
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Thank you Surinder Kaur Bhenji, you clearly understand Guru Ji's intentions.

Arvind Ji, you are right, our Holy Guru's had no vair, how could they, they represented the pure light of God.

Like I said, destruction should not be only seen as negative as Tejwant Ji suggests, for the destruction of our ignorance, which only Vaheguru can give, is a form of apaar kirpa, it is this destruction we pray for everyday, destruction of this darkness, we do nothing, all is his will, we act and live within his will, yet at times, think we understand or above his will.

Somethings are better understood or learnt through experience rather than discussion, I was blessed enough to learn kirtan of this most beautiful shabd by Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj in the sublime Sri Raag - the experience of Guru Ji's beautiful raag and shabd fills one with understanding of Vaheguru's all encompassing nature - he does all, he is all, without fear, without hate.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु दूजा २ ॥
Sirīrāg mehlā 1 gẖar ḏūjā 2.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Second House:

ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਆਪਿ ਰਸੁ ਆਪੇ ਰਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ
आपे रसीआ आपि रसु आपे रावणहारु ॥
Āpė rasī­ā āp ras āpė ravaṇhār.
He Himself is the Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Enjoyment. He Himself is the Ravisher of all.

ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਚੋਲੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਜ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
आपे होवै चोलड़ा आपे सेज भतारु ॥१॥
Āpė hovai cẖolṛā āpė sėj bẖaṯār. ||1||
He Himself is the Bride in her dress, He Himself is the Bridegroom on the bed. ||1||

ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
रंगि रता मेरा साहिबु रवि रहिआ भरपूरि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Rang raṯā mėrā sāhib rav rahi­ā bẖarpūr. ||1|| rahā­o.
My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ
आपे माछी मछुली आपे पाणी जालु ॥
Āpė mācẖẖī macẖẖulī āpė pāṇī jāl.
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥
आपे जाल मणकड़ा आपे अंदरि लालु ॥२॥
Āpė jāl maṇkaṛā āpė anḏar lāl. ||2||
He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

ਆਪੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਰੰਗੁਲਾ ਸਖੀਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ
आपे बहु बिधि रंगुला सखीए मेरा लालु ॥
Āpė baho biḏẖ rangulā sakẖī­ė mėrā lāl.
He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

ਨਿਤ ਰਵੈ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਦੇਖੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਹਾਲੁ ॥੩॥
नित रवै सोहागणी देखु हमारा हालु ॥३॥
Niṯ ravai sohāgaṇī ḏėkẖ hamārā hāl. ||3||
He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਤੂ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਤੂ ਹੰਸੁ
प्रणवै नानकु बेनती तू सरवरु तू हंसु ॥
Paraṇvai Nānak bėnṯī ṯū sarvar ṯū hans.
Prays Nanak, please hear my prayer: You are the pool, and You are the soul-swan.

ਕਉਲੁ ਤੂ ਹੈ ਕਵੀਆ ਤੂ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਗਸੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥
कउलु तू है कवीआ तू है आपे वेखि विगसु ॥४॥२५॥
Ka­ul ṯū hai kavī­ā ṯū hai āpė vėkẖ vigas. ||4||25||
You are the lotus flower of the day and You are the water-lily of the night. You Yourself behold them, and blossom forth in bliss. ||4||25||
 
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spnadmin

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;)Respected friends

The pot boils, which is why this is an interesting discussion, because of perspectives on the meaning of the word "destroyer" in the context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Some research: Granth Sahib dev ji mentions the word Destroyer 218 times. Breakdown: Destroyer of pain 85 times; of fear 68 times; of sin 46 times; of suffering 11 times; of sorrow 10 times; of demons 8 times; of darkness 1 time.

The numbers will add up to more than 218 because Waheguru is sometimes referred to as a destroyer of 2 of these conditions in the same verse.

Context is important because in each verse God is not THE DESTROYER but the destroyer of something specific, and in each case that specific condition is a negative state of the human condition. In other words, the negatives of life are taken away by Waheguru. And we know how this comes about -- through simran and gur prasaad (maybe too simplistic).

Only once is Waheguru referred to as a Creator and Destroyer (without a specific negative condition mentioned) in Siri Guru Granth Sahib. This is, if memory serves me correctly, in Japuji Sahib. And because He is the Architect of Destiny we have to consider creation and destruction as part of a grand design. Our opinion is not important.

So the point advanced by VaheguruSeekr is more 'what kind of destroyer are we talking about here?' The Abrahamic Destroyer - I am a vengeful god, my will be done! Humans must appease me. The Vedantic Destroyer - dancing through cycles of creation and destruction, inventing and dismantling creation, but always an abstraction. Not mindful of human suffering - but beyond all of that! Humans just have to adjust. Or something uniquely different. Note that Waheguru never goes on a destructive rampage as we find in other religious belief systems. He is neither dualistic nor personified.

I tend to side with VaheguruSeekr in this debate. Maybe I will change my mind. For now, whenever Waheguru is destroying something he is making it possible to remove a negative condition.

Great discussion.
 

simpy

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Mar 28, 2006
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Surinder Kaur ji,

You are making the same mistake as Shaheediyan I am a afriad. You are contradicting yourself. If you accept IK ONG KAAR as ALL LOVING- SANS FEAR- NO RANCOR towads any one the way He/She/it is described in Mool Mantar then how can he be the opposite too? We humans live in duality. IK ONG KAAR is sans duality.

To be a destoryer is negative. Our VAHAGURU is not negative. VAHEGURU is always cheerful. We have to come out of the Hinduism way of thinking where God is a deity personified. Nothing like that in Sikhi.

Tejwant

Ps:- One request. Just express your viewpoint in agreement or in disagreement, allow others to think. Your urging them to think... think may indicate to the reader that it is your assumption that others do not think as sharply as you do.:)


Respected Tejwant Ji,

one has to contemplate/think over the matter to understand it. Sharply or not sharply- we are thinking to understand Guru Ji's Word- GURU JI IS PROVIDING EVERYBODY THEIR SHARE TEJWANT JI....

anyways again something for all of us to explore-

WHEN SOMETHING IS CREATED- HOW IT HAPPENS????- SOMETHING IS DESTROYED/DEFORMED!!!!!!!!

ATMA TA AMAR HAI- na ghatni hai na wadhni hai na marni hai- SACH HAI

all that is creation or destruction is actually deformation, isn't it........
kar kar vaikhey nadar nihaal....

Vaheguru ji is always cheerful in ANAND, SAHAJ, POORAN...... there is no question of two opposites, as there is none. If one says HE IS ONLY CREATING -that is opposition to the other part of it, as HE IS GOBINDEY MUKANDEY UDAAREY APAAREY HAREEAN KAREEAN NIRNAAME AKAAMEY............ GURU SAHIB SAYS HE IS KARTA, KAARAN, KARAN, KAREEM.

there is no negative or positive- IT IS ALL SACH

just adding my neech little understanding.

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
 

Shaheediyan

SPNer
Jun 10, 2006
66
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I think this discussion can only progress if participants first of all give us their interpretation these tuks, which in my opinion, give clear understanding to this subject, beofre anyone mentions that these are metaphors, that's fine if they see it at that level, but kindly explain what they are metaphors for:

Ik sansaaree, ik bhandaaree, ik laa-ay deeban.
Jiv tis bhaavai, tivai chalaavai, jiv havai phurmaan.
Oh vaykahi, onaa nadar na aavai, buhutaa ayho vidaan.

and

Gur eesar, gur gorakh barmaa, gur paarbatee maa-ee.

Vaheguru

 

Randip Singh

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Re: Sikh...Islam...

i belived there is only one god who made every thing , only man made reglion to suit him self jesus was son of god who was send to die for our sins through his blood we can be forgiven
he teach us how we should live our lives if we all folow his teaching there will be no war between man kind there will be no greed

If that were the case then why did Christians launch Crusades (Wars) to capture the Holy lands and kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Jews?

Jesus is not the only son of God we are all sons and daughters of God.

I am sorry to say, but your kind of narrow Christian thinking has led to countless wars. In your narrow Christian world there is no room for Mohammed, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Nanak. In Sikhism there is room for them all. The inability to accept other religions is at the heart of all the Semitic (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) texts and is an intollerance that hasled to much bloodshed over the years.

Sorry my friend, your thinking is flawed because historical events say otherwise.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Re: Sikh...Islam...

If that were the case then why did Christians launch Crusades (Wars) to capture the Holy lands and kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Jews?

Jesus is not the only son of God we are all sons and daughters of God.

I am sorry to say, but your kind of narrow Christian thinking has led to countless wars. In your narrow Christian world there is no room for Mohammed, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Nanak. In Sikhism there is room for them all. The inability to accept other religions is at the heart of all the Semitic (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) texts and is an intollerance that hasled to much bloodshed over the years.

Sorry my friend, your thinking is flawed because historical events say otherwise.


Talking about"narrow thinking"...this is how the Little Napoleans in our country's Govt try to force feed "islamic teachings" down everybodys throats
Malaysia is a SECULAR country..with 70% Muslim and 30% Non Muslim population...Lim Kit Siang is the Opposition Leader in Parlaiament.
The "Banana Leaf restaurants mentioned are South Indian Hindu owned eating places and they usually place pictures of Laksmi, Krishan Ram Chander etc on their walls....
Subject: FW: JAWI: Little Napoleons



Read on ....







by Lim Kit Siang
___________________

(Parliament, Thursday): The Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad
Badawi must stop the "Little Napoleons" in JAWI from imposing a "reign
of terror" with their lack of understanding of the Merdeka social
contract and contempt for the constitutional rights of all Malaysians,
creating inter-religious tension and setting back inter-racial harmony
and nation-building.

I refer to the multi-agency raid led by JAWI (Jabatan Agama Islam
Wilayah Persekutuan) to the eating shops in Lorong Maarof, Kuala
Lumpur on Tuesday, 26th June 2007, at about 11.30 a.m., particularly
an Indian restaurant and a mamak restaurant.

When the raid was made on the Indian restaurant, an eye-witness had
emailed the following account:

"I was sitting in the banana leaf shop this morning having a roti and
a coffee when a group of JAWI officers entered the premises. 10
officers to be exact, into this little shop. They spent a good 20
minutes going through the place (and it is a small place!) and finally
one officer writes out a writ and gives it to the cashier. They then
left. Curious, I asked the cashier what that was all about and he
replied that they were not allowed to have their little altars and
pictures of their deities in their shop "because otherwise, Muslims
cannot come into their shops" . What utter nonsense! Are we still
living in the Malaysiathat is so "famed" for its "religious
tolerance"?? The shop is not a mamak shop. It is an Indian Banana leaf
shop. Why would it be surprising that they should have signs of their
religious beliefs in their own space? I didnt think that sort of thing
was illegal (please correct me if I am wrong). What is wrong with this
picture?


Will it come down to the point when my Muslim friends should
not visit my home just because I have a cross or a chinese altar
there? PLEASE!

"Better yet, I discovered as I was leaving , that the JAWI personnel
had targetted the other 3 banana leaf shops along that row of old
shops. There were at least 4 nos of vans for the officers , ALL double
parked on the main road and causing an inconvenience to the other
road users. Is there a separate set of laws that govern these people?
Notwithstanding the fact that they are trampling all over the
definition of religious tolerance in this country, they also flaunt
the general laws of the land. This makes me really angry and sad about
the state of our country.


"I now find it difficult to speak up for Malaysia when there are
arguments comparing Malaysia to other countries. It is sad that we
can have the once world tallest building and still think like we came
out of the jungle yesterday."
Last night, I received an email from another public-spirited Malaysian
who visited Lorong Maarof to check on the complaint. This is the
account her email after the visit:

"I dropped by the two Indian restaurants at Lorong Maarof this
afternoon to chat with the workers and to verify what exactly
happened. The Star and another paper were already there yesterday,
they said.

"I looked at the summons issued to Aiswari restaurant: The raid was
done by the Bahagian Hub Halal of JAKIM, together with officials from
other agencies, including JAWI, KPDN and HEP (? must be Kementerian P
or D (not clear) Dalam Negeri; don't know what HEP is) and DBKL. 10 of
them came into the shop, but the cashier said there were about 15
others milling outside the streets.

"According to the summons, the officers came because of a complaint


(choice of berkala/aduan/susulan). 4 jenis kesalahan were written down:

1. bukan pemegang sijil halal JAKIM (this means their halal logo is
from some other source?)

2. arahan tidak boleh menggunakan logo halal dan perbahasan dalam premis (??)


3. Sita?? - ayat ayat Qur'an di buat oleh JAWI?? (four framed ayats,
2 big, 2 small were taken away)

4. tiada pekerja Muslim - NO MUSLIM EMPLOYEES...(? cashier and all workers are Muslim)



"The cashier who seems to be in charge was quite agitated, esp about
the Muslim workers and halal meat served. He is an Indian (national)
Muslim, showed the JAKIM ppl his passport with his Muslim name and all
the 7 workers there were Muslim and so is the owner. The raiders
questioned the "halal" ness of the food served and took the halal
certs issued by the meat suppliers. Said he and the workers and owner
are all Muslim so why shd they serve non-halal meat and chicken.

" They also took away all the ayat Qur'an, but I can't figure out what
the offence is - ayat Qur'an dibuat oleh JAWI??? Maybe they allege
this is not a genuine Halal Muslim place, so they have no right to
display ayat Qur'an?


"At the corner restaurant where my friend's niece ( the writer of the
original email) was eating, they inspected the place, checked the
meat to see if its halal, took pictures, took the halal certificate,
and questioned why they have pictures of Hindu gods and candle on the
mantlepiece behind the cashier when they serve Muslim customers. The
guy said he told the JAKIM people the meat served is halal and showed
him their halal cert from the supplier. Two other restaurants were
closed.

"These seem to be neighbourhood hangouts and people of all races were
there when I stopped by at 3 pm. If indeed they were doing the rounds
to check on halal certification, why the heavy handed approach and
comments and actions on display of religious symbols. (oh Ganesh was
still very much there today on the wall, but the ayat Qur'an remains
missing in the other place) My niece's friend said it was very
intimidating to have 10 officials walking around, taking pictures,
asking questions, picking up food... and in these days of Lina Joy,
Revathi, Subashini, Sharmala, it all points out to the same motive.


"How come every time women complain about husbands not paying nafkah, or
not appearing in court, the courts keep saying they do not have
enough enforcement officers to serve summons on errant
husbands/fathers, but plenty of enforcement officers to go on khalwat
and halal raids..."


This morning before coming to Parliament, together with DAP MPs Chong
Eng (Bukit Mertajam) and Fong Po Kuan (Batu Gajah) and DAP Selangor
state secretary Lau Weng San, I visited these two Lorong Maarof
restaurants, and verified the complaints and the facts that had been
given in the two emails as true and accurate.

At the corner Indian restaurant, the JAWI-led raid team took away the
"halal" sign and served a notice of its infringements, which I have
yet to have sight as the owner was not in.
I understand that this is not an isolated case but such raids and
offensive and insensitive remarks about the display of Hindu religious
symbols in Indian restaurants had taken place in other parts of Kuala
Lumpur.

The Prime Minister should cause an immediate investigation into the
JAWI-led raids in utter disregard of the rights and sensitivities of
non-Muslim Malaysian businesses and to suspend the errant officers
from JAWI and other agencies like JAKIM.

(28/6/2007)

Gyani jarnail Singh
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Only one way to survive is to sell NON HALAL food like the chinese shops. Business will be lessened but survival can still remain in good locations. Muslims don't really care these days on the non-halal issues especially the youngsters.
This way, neither will they be forced to bring down their altars nor subject to Jakim or HALAL raids.
 
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spnadmin

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The God of Abraham is a "vengeful" god. And so dangerous. Look on his face (i.e., a metaphor for daring to authenticate his reality) at your mortal peril! Hence no graven images. Only a few in the abrahamic tradition were given permission to face him directly. Remember in the earliest years christians were Jews who were self-proclaimed followers of christ. The work-around for early christians was to view Jesus as the son of the Father, to bring the fearful Yahweh down to earth so that a message of compassion and mercy would be possible. This message was needed to rescue the peoples of Israel and Judea from political corruption, from the religous tyranny of the Romans, and the indifference of their own religious caste system. Although early christians saw Jesus as the son of God, the idea that he was an Incarnation of God, comes later in the tradition.

The abrahamic tradition is grounded in the following ethical foundation: In this tradition we know a virtuous person because they have chosen the path of virtue. A virtuous man will sacrifice his own son if it is the command of God. Obedience to HIM is the first virtue. There are no detours. There is no room for compromise or argument because virtue cannot be seen as something that is more or less. I hope these observations shed some light on why the laws of Halal, and the other abuses and exercises of moral authority by muslims, christians, or others, described on this thread, are as they are. And why they are not likely to go away.

And a final editorial comment. Sikhism is the first religion to preach tolerance as a matter of constant virtue even when tolerance leads to personal misfortune. Was there a religion before Sikhism that rose up in arms to protect the religious beliefs of others in history?
 
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Randip Singh

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The God of Abraham is a "vengeful" god. And so dangerous. Look on his face (i.e., a metaphor for daring to authenticate his reality) at your mortal peril! Hence no graven images. Only a few in the abrahamic tradition were given permission to face him directly. Remember in the earliest years christians were Jews who were self-proclaimed followers of christ. The work-around for early christians was to view Jesus as the son of the Father, to bring the fearful Yahweh down to earth so that a message of compassion and mercy would be possible. This message was needed to rescue the peoples of Israel and Judea from political corruption, from the religous tyranny of the Romans, and the indifference of their own religious caste system. Although early christians saw Jesus as the son of God, the idea that he was an Incarnation of God, comes later in the tradition.

The abrahamic tradition is grounded in the following ethical foundation: In this tradition we know a virtuous person because they have chosen the path of virtue. A virtuous man will sacrifice his own son if it is the command of God. Obedience to HIM is the first virtue. There are no detours. There is no room for compromise or argument because virtue cannot be seen as something that is more or less. I hope these observations shed some light on why the laws of Halal, and the other abuses and exercises of moral authority by muslims, christians, or others, described on this thread, are as they are. And why they are not likely to go away.

And a final editorial comment. Sikhism is the first religion to preach tolerance as a matter of constant virtue even when tolerance leads to personal misfortune. Was there a religion before Sikhism that rose up in arms to protect the religious beliefs of others in history?

Interesting you say God of Abraham....I still have a problem with God asking Abraham to kill his only son as a test........? Ok I can understand God telling Abraham .." Go forth and send your son to fight in a battle to protect the meek and poor" or "Go forth and send your son forward to sacrifice himself so that thousands may live".....but as a test? .....
 

spnadmin

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Randip ji

Say more -- Did I get it wrong? or Are you asking what's up with the God of Abraham? Can't tell from your comments.

Abraham was commanded by God to show his submission to God's will. As a reward for his obedience he received another promise of a numerous seed and abundant prosperity. 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God tempted Abraham, and said to him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, [here] I [am]. 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thy only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will name to thee. (Genesis).

You are not the only person who is confused. In my quick attempt to reply and edit I found this:

The near sacrifice of Isaac is one of the most challenging, and perhaps ethically troublesome, parts of the Bible. According to Josephus, Isaac was 25 years old at the time of the sacrifice or Akedah, while the Talmudic sages teach that Isaac was 37. In either case, Isaac was a fully grown man, old enough to prevent the elderly Abraham (who was 125 or 137 years old) from tying him up had he wanted to resist. The narrative now turns to Isaac. To his "only son" (22:2, 12) Abraham gave all he had, and dismissed his other sons, as Abraham himself had been dismissed by Terah after Terah had given his territory to Nahor. Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And if you want to read something that will make you wonder, read this article. The author of God: A Biography says Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. -- Beliefnet.com

BTW I did some research regarding a question asked earlier about the prayers said during a halal and/or kosher slaughter. As often happens, there is more to it than one thinks. If anyone is interested, I will post what I found/discovered/was told. Will hold onto it if no one is interested in this question any longer.

Thanks
 

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