General Sikh Philosophy Vs Religion, And The Eternal Soul

[Original]

So my friend (the same friend from my Me and Sikhi post) said the other day, "I don't understand the whole Holy Spirit thing."

My friend listens to a lot of atheist podcasts and YouTube shows, and they are usually arguing against Christians. Hence his grumbling about the Holy Spirit.

I have no theological knowledge about the Holy Spirit. I have only studied Christianity at a surface level. But I do know about my personal experiences with spirituality.

So I suggested they where talking about that spiritual feeling you get sometimes, the fire that ignites and motivates and warms you from the inside out, that gives you strength to face challenges in the best way you can, makes you strive to be a great person because that is how this overwhelming feeling needs to be released - in acts of kindness. It draws you in to read Gurbani, and when the poetry strikes a particularly resounding chord inside you, the feeling flares and you are consumed with the beauty and radiance of it. In that moment you can only breathe, "Wow."

I asked if he was familiar with this feeling. He looked at me like I was a bit nutty and asked me how I know it's not due to something I ate. *rolls eyes* Then he asked me if it was like the feeling of awe.

I said yes, it's quite similar to the feeling of awe, but the difference is that this spiritual feeling is highly motivational and opens you up to more of the same. You carry it with you for longer. The awe you might feel by looking at the stars or a breathtaking landscape is fantastic and inspiring, but the spiritual feeling burns deep in the self and causes you to act with virtue and kindness, even while doing the smallest of things.

By that time, I'd lost his interest. I kinda feel sorry for people who don't get to experience this feeling, or who aren't able to appreciate it due to their intellectualism. Maybe he needs to eat some Gurbani.

Dear Ishna

Know this that we're all searchers, some have found, some still searching. What you are today your parents weren't yesterday, and, what their parents were, they were not and it goes all the way back to the beginning of time. Baba Nanak Ji comes along [amongst other enlighteners, of course], he sees all this and says, "wait, they've missed the plot. The real reason for being born human has been sidetracked altogether. These humans will never get out of the cycle of birth, death, rebirth if they continue this kind of existence and the soul will remain a prisoner of the physical [body] forever. O' my god cried Nanak, they've made attachments with the physical world for the soul's real home is sach khand [pauri 34 to 37 japjisahib]. What to do ?".

And, what Nanak did is in "practice" a "philosophy" [Sikh] but is in actual fact, for the record [academic classifications by conventional recoginition] categorised as a system of belief [religion]. Why ? Simply put, Nanak's Ikonkar by convention could not be proved or disapproved via emperical observation or rational analysis for objectivity testing. Academic world recognises Nanak's way of life as a system of belief dependent purely on subjectivity [personal experience] that is to say, Nanak could not bring his Ikonkar to the science lab for experimentation nor for theoretical reasoning because Ikonkar is "non-matter", the study of which is undertaken within the branch of philosophy as metaphysics. For it be classed as philosophy, we've to confirm the existence of Ikonkar through argumentation, debate and discussion for an objective determination, but since that is not possible through the scientific method and is confined solely wholly to revelation n intuition it is treated as a matter of "faith" [subjective] and not a matter of knowledge [objective].

The veering off track was to give you a little bit of philosophy and religion so that you're better placed to understand your own faith and the disposition of your dear friend.

What am I talking about ? Consider the following -

Once, a young girl like you ran into the woods for adventure play and behold, saw a man chipping away with chisel n hammer into this huge block of limestone.
"What are you looking for ?" asked the young girl,
"Come back another day" answered the stonecutter. The girl hesitantly, coz reply was too dry, wanders off and returns to the same spot few days later, when, "O' my god, a horse" exclaimed the girl on seeing what was once a huge block of limestone is now carved out to be a beautiful horse ! Looking up at the statue the girl remarked, "you knew the horse was in the rock all the time".

The moral of it is "potential", the stonecutter saw the potential in the Rock and brought the horse to the "actual" state of being. Similarly, Nanak the stonecutter sees the potential in humans [nam] and then demonstrates through a code of conduct to carve the potential to the actual [original you, good, beautiful and just] for the final "eternal" you. The never dying spiritual you - Kaur you the eternal nam.

How do you know your friend hasn't found the eternal, meaning you, and is just, living in the "moment" of eternity ? It's probably you who is searching and the search is within and not without.

The key to everything is "love" - check out verse 1412 when Nanak says, "want to play with me, the game of love, eh?" Yeah, "come prepared girl"

Believe in your own self because it is within yourself that "satnam" lives. Satnam will reveal itself to you when the riddle of the self is solved. Do the things good people do and the law abiding citizens conform to. Your friend will see the beauty, the spiritual Ishna, who has a rich history [first ape who walked upright - "Lucy Kaur"] and is morally an upright individual. Let your friend's love for you n yours for him be culminated from mere physical into spiritual - satnam waheguru ji.

Enjoy the moments - take care !

PS - try n read "philosopher's stone" which I did a while back and remember, Sikhi is "love". Thrush out discrimination about who is a believer or non believer, at the end of the day we're all one - Chaz a meditator, Harry a gladiator, great, both created by One. Get on to do what you're here to do - find your true self ! Beautiful journey - trust me - we're all on it albeit separate carriages in the one train, from potential to eternal.

As part of my seva I'm in India working to better the lives of the destitute of rural Punjab [pind's]. I arrange religious excursions for schools so as to put them in touch with moral, spiritual and social values. I wrote for the girls something very meaningful and personal to build their unique character and personality - have a read, an extract -

"....I'm strong n sensible. I understand fellow beings and make allowances for their shortfalls, weaknesses and behaviours in general, for their behaviours are about them and not me......."

 

[Ishna]

Original Ji

I appreciate so much in your post. I need to do some more reading about the line between philosophy and religion, because it seems to me that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji presents a philosophy rather than a religion. If we draw two columns and write down the parts of Gurbani that present a 'religion' and the parts that present a 'philosophy', I think the scale will tip towards the latter.

But isn't religion the outer packaging for an internal philosophy, anyway?

You touched on some points in your post that are at odds with my understanding at this point in time.

1. The birth/death/rebirth cycle is experienced in this life as we change as people. Sachkhand is likewise able to be experienced in this life. I do not understand it to be an afterlife. Please let me know if I misunderstood you.

2. "... through the scientific method and is confined solely wholly to revelation n intuition ..." What do you mean by 'revelation'?

3. "...demonstrates through a code of conduct to carve the potential to the actual [original you, good, beautiful and just] for the final "eternal" you." There is no eternal me. The original me is the Akaal. There is only You. When people talk about looking within and finding their true self, their soul that will go to sachkhand, it just makes me think they are yet to let go of duality and their sense of self, their haumai.

Please forgive me for any mistakes.

 

[chazSingh]

ahh the 'eternal you'...so gurbani says...know thyself and you will know Waheguru....

tuhee tuhee...you only...only you...no other..only waheguru

i am only because of my Ego...Ego dissolves...and there is only Him...

 

[Original]

I appreciate so much in your post. I need to do some more reading about the line between philosophy and religion, because it seems to me that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji presents a philosophy rather than a religion. If we draw two columns and write down the parts of Gurbani that present a 'religion' and the parts that present a 'philosophy', I think the scale will tip towards the latter.

By convention Sikh is a religion [ideology] - when you fill out statutory forms what do you tick as a religion/faith?

Have a read, "understanding Sikhism" - I did that a while back and see whether your able to digest. Another way of looking at it is you n your friend, that is to say, you might be living and doing all the things which married couples do but yet your not recognised as husband and wife by law [convention]. In other words, just as we have rules for playing netball so do we have rules for classifying information, systems, ideologies, and so on. Sikh within the meaning of the term faith has been certified as a religion

These are academic definitions; what does that mean ? It means, where, philosophy seeks "truth" by argument and reason [objective], religion, seeks "truth" by revelation and intuition [subjective]. And, since Nanak's "Ikonkar" cannot be proved as you can with the moon by pointing at it, it follows that the latter, religion, offers, through the faith of the individual revelations of a phenomena and intuition of something which is inaccessible to our senses [empirical] and our mind [rational]. Philosopher's have accepted Nanak's Ikonkar as a bridge [faith] between reason and experience.

In terms of its practical application, yes, it is very much a philosophical arrangement of ideas.

1. The birth/death/rebirth cycle is experienced in this life as we change as people. Sachkhand is likewise able to be experienced in this life. I do not understand it to be an afterlife. Please let me know if I misunderstood you.

Who said an afterlife ? Guru Nanak describes between pauri 34 - 37 the spiritual journey of the soul [the kind of experiences Chaz talk about]. Now remember, Nanak was born into a system that believed in "reincarnation" [his parents were Hindu] and he fought tooth n nail to counter that and as a result offered an alternative [Sikh] to break free from the fetters of the 84 lakh joon [reincarnation]. He succeeded. Of course, in light of evolution we see things differently, at Nanak's time they didn't. Homo sapiens brains hadn't advanced as species to understand the workings of evolution then, but do today.

The beautiful feature of Sikhi, which you'll come to understand is - the eternal soul - the never dying you where the body disintegrates into the 5 elements but the soul lives on.

2. "... through the scientific method and is confined solely wholly to revelation n intuition ..." What do you mean by 'revelation'?

Some things revealed to you, say by the universe, in special ways, more commonly referred to as synchronistic, which defies the laws of science. Read up on synchronistic and I guarantee you, you'd want more.

3. "...demonstrates through a code of conduct to carve the potential to the actual [original you, good, beautiful and just] for the final "eternal" you." There is no eternal me. The original me is the Akaal. There is only You. When people talk about looking within and finding their true self, their soul that will go to sachkhand, it just makes me think they are yet to let go of duality and their sense of self, their haumai.

There is the eternal you - the "kaur" - the kaur melts into the pot of Akal Purakh, a divine name [nam] is recommended by gur ghar thus, "nanak ka ghar keval nam". When you listen to the daily ardass , it says "....nam daan" , what does it tell you ? Its egging you on to come forward, which you have, that's why I'm talking you and that's why you aren't playing around with your cosmetic toolkit to look pretty coz someone is pulling you and that someone is, Waheguru, and that someone is sitting deep within you, who doesn't care who you bed with, sit with, eat with, in fact doesn't care what you do as long as you don't hurt another. And, he is capsuled in "kaur singh".

 

[Ishna]

Original Ji, is the 'eternal soul' you speak of unique for each individual? Do I have an eternal soul, and you have an eternal soul, and Harry and Chaz have their own souls, too?

Because, to my mind, that establishes a duality, an eternal separateness/distinction between things (the souls) and the Akaal Purakh. We become preoccupied with the fate of our eternal soul. The preoccupation should be about removing the haumai, the illusion of separateness that we perceive due to our human condition, and realise right here, right now, that there is nothing except the Akaal Purakh. There is no eternal unique soul. The core of me is exactly the same as the core of you and every other thing in the entire universe. It is all You, it is all Akaal, it is all divine.

We don't need to even think about anything like a 'soul'. We only need to think about the Ik Onkar.

 

[Harry Haller]

If I do, I want a refund

 

[chazSingh]

Original Ji, is the 'eternal soul' you speak of unique for each individual? Do I have an eternal soul, and you have an eternal soul, and Harry and Chaz have their own souls, too?

Because, to my mind, that establishes a duality, an eternal separateness/distinction between things (the souls) and the Akaal Purakh. We become preoccupied with the fate of our eternal soul. The preoccupation should be about removing the haumai, the illusion of separateness that we perceive due to our human condition, and realise right here, right now, that there is nothing except the Akaal Purakh. There is no eternal unique soul. The core of me is exactly the same as the core of you and every other thing in the entire universe. It is all You, it is all Akaal, it is all divine.

We don't need to even think about anything like a 'soul'. We only need to think about the Ik Onkar.

like it or not...we are in a dualistic world...the mere fact that you are thinking about ik onkar provides that bridge and space between 'you' and 'ik onkar'

right up until the point where the ego dissolves, that separateness will always exist...the many will always appear from the one...

whilst we are flying through creations...no two waves are the same on the ocean...even though in reality all waves are the same (water)...
i don't think there is any harm in aknowledging that you are a unique wave...that is longing to take merge back into the ocean...

just my opinion..

god bless

 

[Original]

Original Ji, is the 'eternal soul' you speak of unique for each individual? Do I have an eternal soul, and you have an eternal soul, and Harry and Chaz have their own souls, too?

Because, to my mind, that establishes a duality, an eternal separateness/distinction between things (the souls) and the Akaal Purakh. We become preoccupied with the fate of our eternal soul. The preoccupation should be about removing the haumai, the illusion of separateness that we perceive due to our human condition, and realise right here, right now, that there is nothing except the Akaal Purakh. There is no eternal unique soul. The core of me is exactly the same as the core of you and every other thing in the entire universe. It is all You, it is all Akaal, it is all divine.

We don't need to even think about anything like a 'soul'. We only need to think about the Ik Onkar.

Dear Ishna,

First n foremost, very succiently written - I like it - thank you !

Original Ji, is the 'eternal soul' you speak of unique for each individual? Do I have an eternal soul, and you have an eternal soul, and Harry and Chaz have their own souls, too?

Get a big mirror and have a look at your face, then let the mirror drop on to the floor and smash. Now have a look at the broken pieces, you can still see your face in all the broken pieces. Similarly, the soul is but a broken piece of the big mirror, the big mirror being God. And, since God is eternal, soul a part thereof, means soul is eternal. We are the souls, just as you are the precious gem of your dear mother, so are we the precious souls of God. Sikh sees this as sepoaration from the one. For example, take you, umbilical cord cut from your mother - mother n child separated is what underpins Sikh thought.

At the end of the day it's our ancestors thought process, you don't have to buy into it, create your own and live happily ever after.

Because, to my mind, that establishes a duality, an eternal separateness/distinction between things (the souls) and the Akaal Purakh. We become preoccupied with the fate of our eternal soul. The preoccupation should be about removing the haumai, the illusion of separateness that we perceive due to our human condition, and realise right here, right now, that there is nothing except the Akaal Purakh. There is no eternal unique soul. The core of me is exactly the same as the core of you and every other thing in the entire universe. It is all You, it is all Akaal, it is all divine.

Following on from what I said above, that you are the soul, can you find another Ishna [face in the mirror] in the universe ? No, there is only 1 you [subjective, unique] part of the whole formless face [objective]. Gur Ghar have called it sargun n nirgun respectively. Moreover, it is only through the sargun you become the nirgun - consciousness. Yes, you're right, you n AP is one, on the one hand you knowing it to be true and on the other Chaz experiencing it to be true. And, this is what Sikhi spiritual is all about - gobind milan ki teri varyia [time to meet god, or become 1 in this dual world].

Whatever you do, don't let your thought process get bogged down with prehistoric jargon - from complex bring it to simple form, like you did above "you n AP".

Goodnight & Godbless

 

[Ishna]

Original Ji

Thank you again for your thoughts. Your posts are really enjoyable.

A few people have tried to explain to me the same concept you're trying to explain now. Maybe I'm just not getting it, or not explaining my own perspective thoroughly enough.

I guess where I differ at the moment is that I'm not sold on the 'universal consciousness' idea. My perspective is that the subjective 'me', my consciousness, is an emergent property of my physical condition - the state of being a human. I don't know what Akaal Purakh is, exactly, but I feel it is beyond even the idea of 'consciousness'. It seems anthropocentric (human-based) to assume our human experience of consciousness is equal to the Akaal.

When Chaz Ji mentioned the wave idea above, it was definitely food for though. There is no actual difference between the wave and the ocean - it's the same stuff but in a momentarily different form. When the wave rolls back into the ocean, you cannot distinguish that wave from the ocean it returned to.

Similarly, when I die, when my wave rolls back into the ocean, there is nothing of what was me left, no soul, no consciousness, no memory. At best, if we use the 'Akaal is a dreamer and we are dream-characters' metaphor, our memories and experiences enrich Akaal Purakh - but ultimately those memories and experiences are not mine or ours, they are AP's. Gurbani makes it clear that there is really nothing except AP.

However, I am interested to hear more about the nirgun and sargun concepts, if you (and other members) have time, please. Is it the same idea as the wave and the ocean?

Thanks

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Similarly, when I die, when my wave rolls back into the ocean, there is nothing of what was me left, no soul, no consciousness, no memory

As per Sikhi it depends , there are two cases

case 1

ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
By true actions, the True Lord is met, and the Guru's Teachings are found.
ਸੋ ਨਰੁ ਜੰਮੈ ਨਾ ਮਰੈ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
Then, they are not subject to birth and death; they do not come and go in reincarnation.


Case 2

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ
The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.
ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥
Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||



http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=19&english=t&id=808#l808

 

[Original]

You touched on some points in your post that are at odds with my understanding at this point in time.

Don't worry, you're still young ! such are the characterstics of life, what you didn't understand few years back you do today, similarly, what you don't understand of my reasoning and explanating today, you will when the time is right. That is what we mean by evolution. What the original brain of the human once was, that is, small has now developed and enlarged [evolution].

Thank you again for your thoughts. Your posts are really enjoyable.

the operative word here is "enjoyable" - what does it mean ! I'll let you play with it, but from what I want to say is, this you enjoying my posts is "something" which touches the chord with your "something". This something is your inner constitution, say consciousness, which to date science is seeking to understand biologically. It has always been a source of mystery, which both the philosophers and the scientists have succeeded in demystifying to a degree, but still it slips through any net they try n cast with words. Gur Ghar has referred to it as chetna, which is synonmous and interchangeable with the word "soul".

Let us probe "enjoy" a little further, We can summarily construct a premise, "pleasure a state of being is an active part of enjoying". Gur Ghar's philosophy starts from here, that is, "hey soul, seeking pleasures [a state of being, which 75% of jo public does] here n there and then if you're lucky moving on to the next state, happiness [a state which remainder 24% of jo public pursues], thinking this is it, my home, great I love it, but wait, your true state is the next one, "bliss" [anand, which the 1% attempts]. This state of being Gur Ghar refers to as the chautha pad and it this chutha pad, which does "not" emerge from the activity of a kilogram of nerve cells [brain] but is independent of it. It is this state which reamins a mystery to the intellect [manmukh] but a home to thegurmukh [believer].

A few people have tried to explain to me the same concept you're trying to explain now. Maybe I'm just not getting it, or not explaining my own perspective thoroughly enough.

Don't worry, slowly but surely it will begin to make sense, besides, lot of it is technical jargon if you ask me - real sikh is love n live without books n thing. Our ancestral past is a classic example - we're uneducated illiterate kool n deadly lot, ploughing the fields and living in hukam - who needs rescue squad with this hocus pocus intellectual diarrhea [joke]

I guess where I differ at the moment is that I'm not sold on the 'universal consciousness' idea. My perspective is that the subjective 'me', my consciousness, is an emergent property of my physical condition - the state of being a human. I don't know what Akaal Purakh is, exactly, but I feel it is beyond even the idea of 'consciousness'. It seems anthropocentric (human-based) to assume our human experience of consciousness is equal to the Akaal.

Brother H is the expert on "universal consonance" - visit his camp. Once you've identified consciousness, I suggest you get it patent protected, that'll be my camp and since I'm on the eve of retiring, invoice will be manageable.

When Chaz Ji mentioned the wave idea above, it was definitely food for though. There is no actual difference between the wave and the ocean - it's the same stuff but in a momentarily different form. When the wave rolls back into the ocean, you cannot distinguish that wave from the ocean it returned to.

You're getting close !

Similarly, when I die, when my wave rolls back into the ocean, there is nothing of what was me left, no soul, no consciousness, no memory. At best, if we use the 'Akaal is a dreamer and we are dream-characters' metaphor, our memories and experiences enrich Akaal Purakh - but ultimately those memories and experiences are not mine or ours, they are AP's. Gurbani makes it clear that there is really nothing except AP.

You never die. Your guru's died for you so that you can live for ever [spiritual] that is the short n curly of Sikhism. Go back n reread page 1412 - what is Baba Nanak saying, "you want to play girl - come prepared coz I'll take you to your true home and never let you return to this world of you me, this n that, right n wrong, etc etc". This kilogram of nerve cells let it go says Nanak.

However, I am interested to hear more about the nirgun and sargun concepts, if you (and other members) have time, please. Is it the same idea as the wave and the ocean?

You are sargun, you are nirgun - time will bring it around to show you, "have faith" says Nanak - "faith is to believe what you don't see, the reward of this faith is to see what you believe" saint Augustine
Take care -
Ciao

 

[chazSingh]

ishna ji,

you wrote something really interesting here:

' It seems anthropocentric (human-based) to assume our human experience of consciousness is equal to the Akaal'

What if consciousness has no limits in what it can be?
what if it is infinite...
what if consciousness in the human experience becomes limited because it is attached and working through the limitations of our 5 senses? imprisoned so to speak from it's true might...

and what if through the teachings of Guru Ji, you were able to release that stranglehold a little and let consciousness 'breathe' a little more..?

what if consciousness was no longer just confined to the 5 senses of this human physical body and came to know that it is indeed infinite? what would that feel like? what would we come to know as the attachment is loosened?

just some thoughts...

 

[Ishna]

Thank you both for your input. I'm still not comfortable with the consciousness part. Perhaps I'll put that aside just for a moment.

Just as an aside, I was chatting with a Hindu friend today, and told him that several people have tried to explain what Original is trying to explain to me, now. I showed him some bits of the dialogue here. He suggested that my point of view seems like traditional 'Advaita' and Original's seems like Vishishtadvaita Vedanta.

Wikipedia says: "VishishtAdvaita (literally "Advaita with uniqueness; qualifications") is a non-dualistic school of Vedanta philosophy. It is non-dualism of the qualified whole, in which Brahman alone exists, but is characterized by multiplicity."

Is this what you're describing, Original Ji? If so, I can understand it more per the above.

For contrast, Advaita Vedanta: "Advaita (not-two in Sanskrit) refers to the recognition that the true Self, Atman, is the same as the highest Reality, Brahman."

Does Gurbani reflect either of the above Hindu schools of thought, or something entirely unique?

 

[Ishna]

You never die. Your guru's died for you so that you can live for ever [spiritual] that is the short n curly of Sikhism.

Wait, I thought is was Christ who died for me. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the above reflects Sikhi at all. You've really lost me now.

 

[japjisahib04]

The beautiful feature of Sikhi, which you'll come to understand is - the eternal soul - the never dying you where the body disintegrates into the 5 elements but the soul liv,es on.

It is normally believed that God injects soul within four to six weeks/four month (90 days) in the womb once the baby takes a shape and after allotted number of breaths ends and person dies soul leaves the body. Let us see how in a state of transcedent guru sahib says, 'ਇਸੁ ਪਾਨੀ ਤੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਤੂ ਘਰਿਆ ॥ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਾ ਲੇ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਕਰਿਆ ॥ SGGS.913-7 – Our body consists of cells and after the egg is fertilized, cells start multiplying as per laws of nature which converts into tissues and then these tissues takes shape of our organs.

Now the question is whether anything is injected from outside, guru sahib says, 'ਕਾਇਆ ਬਹੁ ਖੰਡ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਆਇਬੋ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਜਾਇਬੋ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਦੁਹਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.695.14 – by searching innumerable holes of body and nine doors, i found nothing from outside enters into the womb and nothing leaves the body at the time of death. Thus logically the life starts immediately as soon as the one strand of DNA from a sperm enters into the ovum and combines with the one strand of DNA in it. As per laws of nature after fourteen fifteen weeks heart start pumping. It is simple logic when all laws of natures combines heart start pumping like a girl when she reaches the age of 11/12 years periods starts in the procession in body formation these period starts and nothing comes from outside to start these periods. Now the question is whether in our body and/or in it reflection of fifth element the ether is soul. Guru sahib says, 'ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲੁ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥ Like the reflection in the picture, if we are spiritually alive this reflection is there otherwise we are dead and now I see there is no such thing which comes and go but spiritual knowledge.SGGS.16.

Now the final question is, who merges with the God and whether anyone goes into the cycle of reincarnation. Gurbani says, 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥ so it is satguru dee matt which is so called soul while living and it is laws of nature.SGGS.797 and cloning has dispelled the doubt of soul. And the one who focus his manh at, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ - in this aava gavan every moment he yells like a dog, conspire and for them this cycle never comes to end, this logically while living and not after physical death. To clarify further what is aava gavan as per gurmat, ''ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਦੀਆ ਸੋਚਿ ਤਿਨ ਆਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਲਪਟਾਣਾ॥੩॥ sggs.882.19.

 

[chazSingh]

Ho

It is normally believed that God injects soul within four to six weeks/four month (90 days) in the womb once the baby takes a shape and after allotted number of breaths ends and person dies soul leaves the body. Let us see how in a state of transcedent guru sahib says, 'ਇਸੁ ਪਾਨੀ ਤੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਤੂ ਘਰਿਆ ॥ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਾ ਲੇ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਕਰਿਆ ॥ SGGS.913-7 – Our body consists of cells and after the egg is fertilized, cells start multiplying as per laws of nature which converts into tissues and then these tissues takes shape of our organs.

Now the question is whether anything is injected from outside, guru sahib says, 'ਕਾਇਆ ਬਹੁ ਖੰਡ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਆਇਬੋ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਜਾਇਬੋ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਦੁਹਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.695.14 – by searching innumerable holes of body and nine doors, i found nothing from outside enters into the womb and nothing leaves the body at the time of death. Thus logically the life starts immediately as soon as the one strand of DNA from a sperm enters into the ovum and combines with the one strand of DNA in it. As per laws of nature after fourteen fifteen weeks heart start pumping. It is simple logic when all laws of natures combines heart start pumping like a girl when she reaches the age of 11/12 years periods starts in the procession in body formation these period starts and nothing comes from outside to start these periods. Now the question is whether in our body and/or in it reflection of fifth element the ether is soul. Guru sahib says, 'ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲੁ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥ Like the reflection in the picture, if we are spiritually alive this reflection is there otherwise we are dead and now I see there is no such thing which comes and go but spiritual knowledge.SGGS.16.

Now the final question is, who merges with the God and whether anyone goes into the cycle of reincarnation. Gurbani says, 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥ so it is satguru dee matt which is so called soul while living and it is laws of nature.SGGS.797 and cloning has dispelled the doubt of soul. And the one who focus his manh at, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ - in this aava gavan every moment he yells like a dog, conspire and for them this cycle never comes to end, this logically while living and not after physical death. To clarify further what is aava gavan as per gurmat, ''ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਏਹੋ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਦੀਆ ਸੋਚਿ ਤਿਨ ਆਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਲਪਟਾਣਾ॥੩॥ sggs.882.19.

how has cloning dispelled the doubt of the soul? which documentary was this in?

also, a couple of personal question if i may ask...what do you think personally what happens to you at moment of death? and what will happen to your attained spiritual knowledge at moment of death? you can PM me if you want to.

we should forget about asking what comes in and comes out...to think like this is to be confined by the 3 dimensions of space that the physical belongs to...you're still thinking of distance and the space between it...

from my short journey into the spiritual i realized pretty quickly to throw away the limits of the 3 dimensions....nothing can be understood or comprehended if we limit our vision to just that
it really made me question everything...and now i know anything is possible...no limits...no limits at all

 

[Original]

Dear Ishna

Wait, I thought is was Christ who died for me. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the above reflects Sikhi at all. You've really lost me now.

I'm sorry ! What I meant was the sacrifices our gurus [Arjun n Teg Bahadur], the sahib jadda's, the countless Sikhs had made to give us here this beautiful life.

Sikhi is to love n live - walk the path to aspire others. Hate no one, but be forgiving, loving, caring n sharing. Discriminate against no one, whether he'd be from Mars or Pluto. Learn to coexist amongst the homogeneous members of society n show your true colour as a Sikh Girl, hold self-esteem, respect, dignity and above all moral uprightness as high as Everest. And, make religious your journey with who ever takes your fancy.

Take care

 

[Original]

Thank you both for your input. I'm still not comfortable with the consciousness part. Perhaps I'll put that aside just for a moment.

Just as an aside, I was chatting with a Hindu friend today, and told him that several people have tried to explain what Original is trying to explain to me, now. I showed him some bits of the dialogue here. He suggested that my point of view seems like traditional 'Advaita' and Original's seems like Vishishtadvaita Vedanta.

Wikipedia says: "VishishtAdvaita (literally "Advaita with uniqueness; qualifications") is a non-dualistic school of Vedanta philosophy. It is non-dualism of the qualified whole, in which Brahman alone exists, but is characterized by multiplicity."

Is this what you're describing, Original Ji? If so, I can understand it more per the above.

For contrast, Advaita Vedanta: "Advaita (not-two in Sanskrit) refers to the recognition that the true Self, Atman, is the same as the highest Reality, Brahman."

Does Gurbani reflect either of the above Hindu schools of thought, or something entirely unique?

The only thing mama n papa taught me was love n live and God'll be looking for you my son. How true !

Young lady, I've learnt so much from SPN which I hadn't known before, but otherwise for me, fully fed home sikhology. If I was to trace my Sikhi roots, whatever they'd be, I'd say from the beginning of time I'm the ape that first walked.

Good luck to Christians, Muslims, Hindus and all other respectful faiths, me for better or worse is Singh da King - always has been and always will be. Even if God came down n offered me all the virtue n wisdom in his camp, I'd probably say, no thanks - me n Jeeto kool as a cucumber, let us be.

I try n stay clear of mix n match religions who's who n what's what etc...too busy looking good and not missing out on life.

Whatever I write, I write first n foremost as a Sikh. My knowledge is extensive because from young age I had to take to the streets [martial arts] to fend for myself, kin n kind against the brutal English society of then UK-1960's. I went n read philosophy n law at uni, had a smashing time as a young n handsome Punjabi Munda, graduating n post- graduating in law and then practicing. At 57, I travelled and experienced so much which I share with you all as my own as a family. The only thing I've kept close to my heart
is what was entrusted to me by grand grand grand grand grand n grand all the way back to when it was first spooken "waheguru".

Good luck to Vedanta, kanta or shanta for I know them not - the words contained in the 1430 or 1429 pages of SGGSJ is what my bay'bay Ji [grandmother] passed on to me which I've passed on to my children n grand children. These words are eternal for they came before time n they will remain after time.

It is not he or she that should occupy your mind but "me", who I am, where am I going, what usefulness am I to the rest of creation, how can leave planet earth a wee bit better than I found it. You're a beautiful and knowledgeable mind, dispense with suspicion n doubt and embrace chardi kala - your true purpose will spring forth.

I have to close for the eve - I'm out with the boys tnite !
Love you - take care !

 

[japjisahib04]

Chaz Ji.

I only expect that you debate in a civil manner and discuss somethings in depth. We are not here to score point and or behave with grudge. If I referred to some channel, it means I believed their logic. This time I will answer your question but next time I will keep in my mind 'saakat sang n keejiey dooron jaeyee bhag.

how has cloning dispelled the doubt of the soul? which documentary was this in?

If I accept your perception of carried forward karma then with advent of cloning two different bodies with same soul are repaying their debt. Double punishment.

what do you think personally what happens to you at moment of death? and what will happen to your attained spiritual knowledge at moment of death? you can PM me if you want to.

Are you referring to spiritual or physical death?

we should forget about asking what comes in and comes out...to think like this is to be confined by the 3 dimensions of space that the physical belongs to...you're still thinking of distance and the space between it.

I am only translating the gurbani. If you want to ignore the divine message that is up to you.

I try to understand gurbani by contemplating on special attention paid by our guru on rahao pankti.

 

[chazSingh]

Aah japji ji.

You,re line of thinking is if some physical body is cloned...the same soul then occupies both bodies?. Interesting...


Physical death....would be good to learn what you think might happen to you after death based in your reading of gurbani.

My reference to 3 dimensions comes from the directive given by guru ji...Guru ji tells us...'you fools stop looking on the inside...god is within you'.

If we stick to only 3 dimensions ecisting...then god /our soul will be pretty cramped sitting there between my organs...I wouldn't wish that on anyone...so sometimes just contemplating this I have to remove all limitation and think what exists within me is enfless...infinite...many many dimensions...Nothing needs to come in or out...it's all in there..

Just some thoughts ji...