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Self Me and Sikhi

Discussion in 'Blogs' started by Ishna, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    My friend said to me the other day that he feels sorry for me having not taken the time to learn about sciences like cosmology and biology in detail. He said, to be fair, he's had a lot of free time to learn about such things. I said I've spent my free time learning about "God" and religion. Then he asked me what I've learned. And I couldn't answer him until I'd had a good think about it

    And then when I did finally answer him (the following day) I said that Sikhi had taught me the following:

    • To seek contentment
    • An attitude of acceptance and positivity
    • Focus on kindness
    • Be honest and generous

    Then he asked me some questions about Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and I said it was hard to talk about, because it's 1429 pages of poetry.

    I thought I'd read some out to him so he could get a sense of it for himself. But there are concepts you have to define first before the poetry makes sense!

    Then I realised that my definitions of the concepts are probably not the same as most other Sikhs. When I read Gurbani, I use a framework of pre-defined concepts for things like Naam, Hukam, Shabad. How do I know my definitions are the right ones? It's important, because ultimately it impacts on the meaning of the bani.

    The only answer I can give myself is to test those definitions in reality.

    But even our experience of reality is subjective, so...
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Gurbani is like a prism and a gem mine. With time, persistence, studying and practicing in real life, we are abl;e to see this prism from different angles which adds to our perspective and in the same way, we discover our gems within.

    This is the reason our Gurus named us Sikhs.We are always learning, unlearning and relearning which is the beauty of life itself.

    Isn't this LIVING itself??!!
     
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  4. khalasa

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    One can learn religion and sciences why the friends are up set on learning about religion?
     
  5. Ishna

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    Hello Khalasa Ji, Sat Sri Akaal

    Welcome to SPN. :)

    He wasn't upset about it, he was being arrogant. But I can't explain the taste of an apple to him; he has to taste it for himself. Meanwhile, because he hasn't tasted it, he assumes the apple must taste like cardboard.

    For sure, religion and science should both be learned. Happily, Sikhi is not 'at odds' with science like some other religions are, particular the Abrahamic ones.

    Gurfateh
    Ishna
     
  6. vaulakh

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    Like any other religion sikhi is an IRRATIONAL religion-it is at odds with science.It is based on falsified history to idealize sikh gurus,like followers of any other religion do for their prophets/gods.Religions have been used for political,social,and economical exploitation of people for centuries;and sikhi is no different.At its inception,it was nothing more than 'business model' by khatris for their personal gains.Definition of a martyrdom has been modified to such an extent that even those who died in their personal feuds have been tagged as martyrs.
     
  7. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Sat Sri Akaal

    I agree with you to an extent - religion is inherently irrational. But I do disagree with most of your post.

    Sikhi is a sound philosophy, much moreso than what I've found in other religions I've investigated. Where other religions are 95% religion, superstition and mythology, Sikhi is 95% philosophy.

    Sikhi was definitely not founded 'by kharis for their personal gain'. Guru Nanak came out staying that religion is baloney and proceeded to teach people a new way of thinking (a philosophy).

    Gurfateh

    PS I remember you now.
     
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    #6 Ishna, Jul 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
  8. Original

    Original
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    We're all guilty of flawed thinking [irrational] because our brains evolved to win others round to our point of view - whether or not reasoning is logical. Confirmation bias is just one of many flaws in our thinking. Our irrational nature is very difficult to explain, for example, I come home to find my wife in an unaccommodating disposition with the milkman who's reputed to have a way with women, how do I react ? The operative word for decision making in this case will be "faith", typical scenario of confirmation bias. And, yes, religion is, "as a result" of irrationality of the mind. But because evolution favoured it, is why we've got it.
     
  9. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Ishna Ji...

    i like your list...for such a question i think you did well with your answer...what you listed are things that would transform the world in second if adopted by more and more people..

    i've been asked similar questions in my office...like "whats the main thing you get out of your religion...why is it that you're fascinated by it"

    and my answer has often been

    "my religion/path teaches me that i don;t need to spend the whole of my life sitting on beliefs and wait till after i die to know and see/experience God/the creative force, and understand what creation is etc etc....that i actually have the tools to replace beliefs with proof...seen and heard first hand by myself...whilst alive and kicking...in the 'now'...in the present'...

    for someone that spent many years reading books on the 'unexplained' 'lost civilisations' 'aliens' etc etc...i was so excited to learn that i could be a living explorer myself :)

    God Bless
     
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  10. vaulakh

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    Ishna ji ssa,
    Sikhi ,indeed, was started as business by self -proclaimed sikh gurus who all happened to be khatris,despite dozens of other ethno-social groups were living in Punjab,including the erudite ones like brahmins and banias.To understand what was real purpose of sikhi, one has to take in account all the social and economical factors which were prevalent in punjab at that time. Khatris/arora/batra(these are ethnically interelated and to this date intermarry ) and banias were major traders/businessmen in that era.They were educated like brahmins who were priests and scholar of ancient hindu traditions.Rest of groups like jats/jatts,kambojs,tarkhans,saini and schedule castes were utterly illiterate and were susceptible to be manipulated in name of god.Brahmins were making good money in name of religion ,so khatris took the idea to exploit illiterate people of punjab -they started a sect with which we now call sikhi.Following are facts associated with corruption and hypocrisy in sikhi since times of its inception:
    1.Sikhi-one of biggest corruption scandal in history of punjab:After guruship got started ,gurus and their families become affluent.Though you will not found a verse in SGGS that GOD NEEDS MONEY,but THESE SIKH GURUS NEEDED IT.To show respect to these self-proclaimed gurus,illiterate masses would offer a small monetary gift(called matha tekna/offering) or grains -that was REAL INTENTION TO START THIS SECT.Why would they ALLOW PEOPLE FOR 'math tekna',if they were free from greed? Amount of wealth, accumulated overs the centuries, was huge,to such an extent that 10 guru lived in a large castle(still present in anandpur) ;while most allmost all of their disciples lived in mud-brick houses.Thus,sikhi only improved lives of sikh gurus and their families ! And there were feuds between various family members of these gurus throughout history to own guruship/business.To expand the the profit ,5th guru started a masand system in which he appointed priests for the distant locations .These masands were generally khatris and they would trasmit a part of offerings to guru.In other words,these masands were frachises of gurughar/guru's house.With passage of time these masands became more and more independent and hoarded wealth like their masters and took complete control of gurudwars,until 20th century when they were killed in a revolt against their corruption and debauchery;hundreds died in those small battles.This led to creation of SGPC to bring accountability to gurudwaras. But, is SGPC a completely accountable? how much money goes into the pocket of sgpc employees is debatable and nobody knows .In their greed ,sikh gurus started the tradition of offering/matha tekna -which of course is not pre-requisite to get favours of waheguru.
    Apart from corruption,polygamy by some of the sikh gurus depicts their hypocritical nature, who preached refrainment from lust.
    2.Lack of merit while awarding guruship: Sikhs have been brainwashed to portray gurus as honest but the way guruship was handed down in itself a mockery of concept of equality of all humans,and it becomes more relevant in modern democrartic society where we strive for equality.The way guruship was kept among khatri families even when there were erudite groups like banias and brahmins is a prime example of hypocritical and dishonest nature of sikh gurus.Even 1st guru considered a khatris as his successor because he/2nd guru was immensely servile to the guru.Is servitude a criteria to appoint a guru? Families of gurus remained engaged in the feuds like rabid dogs throughout these centuries to control the business-so called guruship.These feuds are linked to FAKE MARTYRDOM STORIES being SOLD by biased sikh historians.
    3.Fake martyrdom stories: We have told over and over again each year that how sikh guru sacrificed their lives for HUMANITY!!! To any rational person who believes in EVIDENCE ,these fabricated stories may be intensely repulsive.NONE of SIKH GURU SACRIFICED HIS LIFE FOR HUMANITY .They were either executed under justice system of mughal government or they (and their families) died protecting their own(so called gurughar/guru's house) family assets/wealth and guruship.9TH guru was charged with coercion and extortion and his uncle Ram Rai was witness to gurus wrongdoings.Please notice that justice system came to India through islam,though in modern world islamic justice system is obsolete but it was best in those times .Before islam the word 'justice' had no meaning in indian sub-continent.But these biased thugs- so called sikh historians- with utter disregard for evidence have brainwashed illiterate or literate(who are disinclined to look for
    evidence) masses to believe that 9th guru sacrificed his LIFE TO SAVE HINDUISM and ISLAM WAS EVIL.Actually,10th guru in dasam granth proclaimed that his gather sacrificed his life for hindu faith.That unfounded claim is nothing more than a lie ,which has been commemorated over the centuries.
    5TH guru who was taken as political prisoner,and a khatri officer in mughal government named chandu shah who was refused his daughter's hand(for marriage with guru's son) by guru was witness against him.so,even 5th guru got the title of martyr!!!
    And,10th guru and their family sacrificed their lives-for what? Humanity? He and his family was killed by wazir khan-mughal governer of punjab-and pahari rajas(small kings of shivalik hills of modern himachal pardesh).Actually,feud started 10 years before 1699 when 10th guru was living lavish,aristocratic life style and he refused to lend an elephant to a pahari raja.Their feud led them to a small battle in which guru's disciples with the help of shia muslims (disciples of pir budhu shah) faught against hindu pahari rajas.These pahari rajas were never at ease with sikh guru ,thus, they provocated the wazir khan by projecting guru as political threat to the mughal empire.Wazir khan started campaign against guru and forced him to leave castle.Guru in turn pleaded for safety of his family by signing a treaty which was broken by mughals(and pahari rajas) and they captured and killed his sons.Guru fled punjab as he did not have enough support and made an alliance with bhadur shah -son of aurangzeb who had died before the time guru reached delhi.Guru helped(by providing him with soldiers) bahadur shah to lauch a campaign against his brother who was being helped by hindu rajputs of rajasthan/gujrat.In return bahadur shah gifted a jewelled scarf worth 60,000 rupees(probably,would be billions if projected to contemporary economy).Guru demanded hading the wazir khan over to him but bhadur shah refused .Thus,guru who moved further south in to modern maharashtra state and stayed there untill he was
    assassinated by wazir khan's men-2 pathans.In nutshell,where do you find the evidence backing the biased sikh history that 10th guru too sacrificed life for humanity?? He and his family died as CONSEQUENCE OF A POLITICAL FEUD!!!!whether islam has to do with anything with fake sikh history where we are told hindus were being forcefully converted ?? If yes ,then why 10th guru made alliance with aurangzeb and then with his son bhadur shah,who were both muslims ??? Why were so many hindu officers who were working in mughal government and were never forced to convert? why certain ethno-scoial groups(like bania) never converted to islam?? If it was war of religions ,then why did hindu pahari rajas took side of mughals against sikhs who we are told were fighting for hindus ?Truth is that islam was never forced the way biased sikh historians describe to CONCEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT SIKH GURUS. It took centuries for islam to spread across punjab and there were several factors.Most converted under the influence of sufi saints like sheikh farid whose verses were also incorporated in sggs.Some converted to avoid jizya-a tax on non-believers.Others converted to gain favours in mughal government .Smallest fraction would have converted by force or those captured in wars.As far as 10th guru is concerned,he had done nothing good for humanity.He was an aristocrat and pronounced himself as padeshah(persian word means greatest king)and used to wear feather on turban which is symbol of aristocratic persian life style.How can a saint/guru be a padeshah/greatest king and live a lavish life like a billionaire of modern world!!!!So,10th guru tried his best to save himself, his family,and his business/guruship by making alliance with mughals;but he failed -and what happened is nothing but what a mightier king do to a weaker one.


    4.Military history of sikhism and conversion to sikhism:Sikh apologist always tell us that it was war against evil-islam.But they completely ignore the economical and social factors while eulogising the heroics of sikh soldiers.Why did 10th sikh guru left punjab? Because he did not have protection.In other words,he was not very popular as sikhism was not widespread in his times.10th guru was not respected by masses the way he is today.After battle of mukutsar ,jatt soldiers of malwa stalked him to get their pay as they were mercenaries not devouts of the guru.Even choudhary kapura brar(a jatt)-appointed by mughal government- refused to lend his castle to 10th guru.And today jatts-like islamic jihadis- are most ardent devouts of same guru who was not ideal
    to them in his lifetime or they were more faithful to mughal government.Mass conversion to sikhism started after death of 10th guru ,during reign of banda singh bhadur who PROMISED TO GIVE AUTHORITY OF ARRABLE LAND TO INDIVIDUAL JATT/JAT FARMERS WHO BEFORE BANDA SINGH WERE UNDER HEAVY
    TAXATION BY MUGHAL GOVERNMENT!!!Thus,this economical incentive was initial reason for conversion.In social hierarchy,majhbis/schedule castes(untouchable in those times) used to work under jatts in their farms,thus,consequently they converted too.Third fraction-tarkhans/carpenters-also converted and between 1700 and 1750 sikhs gained partial freedom and by 1800 they emerged as powerful 12 sovereign units called misls ,which were eventually united by ranjit singh as sikh empire.These misls used to fight against each other -in other words sikh millitary history was motivated by economical freedom and propelled by political motives.

    Do you think people converted because they were impressed by sikh philosophy ,especially almost all of them were illiterate? To go to a guru/pandit/baba/pir etc for blessing for good health/economical or social(like birth of son) gains is cultural trait in punjab since time unknown.For instance,in those times life expectancy was around 35,thus,people would pay obeisance to these men of god even for simplest of ailments like fever.As far as sikh philosophy is concerned,it is combination of elements of hinduism and islam.48% of granth sahib is written by bhatts-hindu brahmins who were poets.Most of things guru nanak said already existed in vedas or quran. SGGS is a book of poetry,some of the verses may be relevant to modern world some are obsolete and some order you to be servile to the guru.Sikhism is a business model in which sggs is merely a bait-it is offerings which are relevant,intially,to gurus and masands and nowadays to sgpc or another gurudwara parbandak committe.
     
  11. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    interesting read Vaulakh (major sarcasm here) :)

    can't speak for you...but many things in SGGS Ji have become reality in my life...therefore i have absolutely no reason to doubt it lol...

    people should base their opinions of a religion/path on what they experience whilst living and breathing that it...have you lived it? breathed it? what did you find? have you tried anything that is requested of a sikh?

    god bless ji...
     
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  12. Ishna

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    Vaulakh, we have argued intensely in the past, and I don't want to relive that with you.

    This blog (being my personal blog on this site) is more for positive discussions than hard talk or debate. If you want to continue, please take it to the main forum. It doesn't contribute anything here.

    Thanks
    Ishna
     
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  13. Original

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    Dear VAulakh

    Thank you for the article !

    I must confess, I didn't read it in full because the irrational mind just wouldn't have it - sorry ! The mind is averse in letting go of something so fundamental and true albeit a delusion to jo public - Sikhi.

    I am a Sikh. History helps us to establish our identity, helps us to orientate ourselves in finding our bearings on being adrift on an endless and featureless sea of time; with history we can establish where we are , and who we are as social animals in the vast expanse of the universe. Conversely, with globalisation encroaching is social identity necessary?

    Every writer has an agenda [including information] and audience, your article however, whilst the former is pretty much lopsided, the latter, um - is questionable ! Nevertheless, you're here, what's next ?

    Thanks, your article confirms the diversity in Akal Purakh's creation, believers and non believers are at the end of the day human beings - says, Bhagat Kabir "ek noor sa sub jagat oop'jaya kaun bhalla ko manda" [translation: our common ancestor is one from whence we're all born, who's good n who's bad then?].

    Opinion

    Turn adversity into opportunity
    tragedy into triumph
    misfortune into fortune, and
    remove disaster from hereinafter.

    Join the gang at SPN and have your say !

    Turn your thinking mode into feeling mode; what must it been like for the 10th master to have lost his entire family save the mata ji's? Regardless of fact n figures, from a humanitarian perspective, Gobind's cause n concern must fall on some ears, no? Yes, on those who "feel" [subjective and objective from justice perspective].

    If an axe is to be grinded, let it be with sex n race to determine who we are as habitat species of Northern India [from cave to save humanity ideology]?

    Take care
     
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  14. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod
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    ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਚੋਰ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਗਲਵਢ ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਲੁ ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
    ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥
    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
    ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
    ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥

    [japji Sahib, Pauri 18]
     
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