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Shaktism

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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I think Dasam Granth or Sikhs are nearer to Shaktism. Keep in mind we dont have a definitive form of DG in complete form so anything is just a general idea about what might have been lost.

Godess Shakti known by the name of chandi in her fierce form is present with Sikhs as Bhagauti (Sri Sahib).
The purpose of charitropakhyan might have been to arouse for sexual intercourse.
Use of intoxicants is common among Nihung Dals.

All this instances are part of Tantric side of Shaktism.

Also Japji Sahib explains Godess Shakti as

'Eka maayi jugat viahi tin chele parvaan'

Mother Godess who brought Brahma Vishnu and Shiv to life as per Shaktism.

Mahakal Kalika refers to this mother Godess, which has both male and female attributes.


What do you think? How long are we going to deny that we are Hindus?
 

spnadmin

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roab1 ji

I pray you not get carried off with the sidestream discussions of the Dasam Granth in some quarters, where a case is made, for what are in the majority un-authenticated documents, by people who are using this "Shakti energy" theory.

That somehow Guru Gobind Singh, and/or his closest associates, were on their way to discovering the spiritual energy of Shakti. And that they were using Shakti in their poetry to arouse spirit, courage and morality in their forces. Some even go so far as to say that this Shakti potential is a major boon, an advantage of the DG over the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And they use akand path of DG to raise it up - the Shakti energy - in gurdwara - of course it is not something that the general sangat participates in.

Nothing could be ****her from the truth - Or to put it a different way - When you realize the Sat Nam - who needs Shakti?
 

spnadmin

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The best swami, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji will tell you that! And when I find the article that I lost from 2 years ago on this point, that explains how the allure of Shakti is grounded in pure egotism, I will post it.
 

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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I havent studied DG. If you have then did you find it tilting towards Godess? keep in mind the three main godesses, Laxmi Parvati and Sarswati are three forms of Mother Godess and Durga, Chandi, Kalika, Chandika and many more are forms of the three Godesses. I don't think it condemns the Godess as some of its supporters point out how different Gods are condemned in it. Also in most of old Sikh literature the Godess is involved during formation of Khalsa in one way or the other. For example, Mata Sundari being Godess, Godess granting sword to Guru Gobind Singh, Guruji invoking Godess, Godess appearing before him etc etc

Animal sacrifices by Nihung Dals and at Hazur Sahib is straight from Shaktism.
 

spnadmin

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raab1 ji

I admit that I am more than a little flustered by your reply. It would take many pages in this thread to give you a complete and informed response.


I havent studied DG. If you have then did you find it tilting towards Godess?

Yes there are many pages of verses in praise of Hindu devtas - Godesses included. To the extent that one does not accept these verses as the work of Guru Gobind Singh -- the references to Goddesses is of no importance to Sikhism.


keep in mind the three main godesses, Laxmi Parvati and Sarswati are three forms of Mother Godess and Durga, Chandi, Kalika, Chandika and many more are forms of the three Godesses.

I have it in mind frequently, especially when someone calls my attention to it. Please will you keep in mind that even in "Hindu" philosophy, Shakti is not a "mother Goddess" but represents a creative energy. To put it a different way - Shakti represents the feminine principle of creation, a life force. The mother goddess principle pre-dates the worship of Shakti and harks back to a more primitive phase of Indic civilization. Shakti worship replaced the worship of mother godesses. Once again, as a Sikh this is interesting because the study of religion is interesting. However it has no importance in my own practice of Sikhism.

The next paragraph contains some ideas that are seriously mistaken.


I don't think it condemns the Godess as some of its supporters point out how different Gods are condemned in it.

Sikh Gurus condemned no one. However they preached a message of liberation from the worship of devtas, and all that that worship entails.


Also in most of old Sikh literature the Godess is involved during formation of Khalsa in one way or the other.

I do not know what old Sikh literature you are referring to. However, much of that literature was written more than a century after the death of Guru Gobind Singh by individuals who were influenced by Brahminist philosophy. The poets of the court of Guru Gobind Singh ji, who wrote literature in his lifetime, included Hindus and Muslims. That is an interesting contrast -- because the Muslim poets would not be writing about the worship of goddesses. Yet they were not kicked out of court. This suggests that Guru Gobind Singh fostered a climate of literary creativity, be it Vedantic or Islamic in tone. But none of the writing of these poets was included by him in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and declared it our only living Guru. Bottom line: Goddesses have no significance in Sikhism.

For example, Mata Sundari being Godess,

This is the very first time anyone ever confessed that he thought that Mata Sundari was a Goddess. The very thought contradicts the central belief of Sikhism, Ik*oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa*o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.

It is beyond reason to think that Guru Gobind Singh switched canoes in mid-stream and become a idol worshiper or proponent of goddesses.

Godess granting sword to Guru Gobind Singh, Guruji invoking Godess, Godess appearing before him etc etc

A goddess did not grant a sword to Guru Gobind Singh, any more than the Lady of the Lake granted a sword to King Arthur in the story "King Arthur and the Knights of the Roundtable."

If you are referring to the sword of Durga, then you are tackling a very difficult concept in Sikhism, about which much can be said, and more should be written. I am not going to give a 45 minute lecture on this point. I only want to say that mention of "Durga" in Ardaas has become controversial, there are those who do not accept it, and there are even more who would argue that "Durga" should not be taken to mean the goddess, Durga." Sikhism is not the Kaleeka panth.

Animal sacrifices by Nihung Dals and at Hazur Sahib is straight from Shaktism.

That is correct. Animal sacrifices are straight out of Nihang Dals and Hazoori Sahib. Both traditions are sampardayas that are considered sanatan -- ie., heavily influenced by Brahminist beliefs. In the case of the Nihangs, whose origins are unknown, their rituals may even pre-date Guru Gobind Singh ji.
Thanks for allowing me to review for my own benefit. :}{}{}:
 

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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In the case of the Nihangs, whose origins are unknown, their rituals may even pre-date Guru Gobind Singh ji.
I am sorry but the nihungs are suppossed to originate from Guru Gobind Singhji. is there something i have missed?

And don't get confused by my observations, i am trying to see DG through Hindu Scriptures.

Shakti represents the feminine principle of creation, a life force. The mother goddess principle pre-dates the worship of Shakti and harks back to a more primitive phase of Indic civilization. Shakti worship replaced the worship of mother godesses. Once again, as a Sikh this is interesting because the study of religion is interesting. However it has no importance in my own practice of Sikhism.
Can you elborate if you dont mind. In my understanding Shakti would come from Mother Godess as one of its form.
 

spnadmin

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roab ji

If you are a Hindu - please do not interpret my comments as a slur of your faith. You have every right to understand the Vedas as you see fit.

My frustration comes from Sikhs who buy into some theories that Guru Nanak explicitly questioned.

The Nihangs did not originate with Guru Gobind Singh. Their jathas existed at least during his lifetime, and probably predate him. The nihangs were suicide squads who converted to Sikhism under the leadership of Baba Bahandur. They were among the first to join forces militarily with the 10th Guru in support of his cause against oppression.

If you are trying to understand DG from a Hindu perspective -- that is not necessarily a bad thing, because much if not most of it is infused with Vedantic philosophy. That is probably how it should be understood.

However, all of the chapters that praise the devtas, and that is most of the granth, are unlikely to be from the pen of Guru Gobind Singh, and they contradict the philosophy of Guru Nanak. It is hardly possible that the 10th Nanak would write anything that contradicted the Sikh Gurus who came before him. Though there are those who strive to show that he did. Dasam Granth is not Gurbani.

The "Dasam Granth" did not exist prior to 1902.
 

spnadmin

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roab1 ji

I did a little research and found the source I was referring to. The Nihangs - Akaalis - trace their history to the 6th Guru, Guru Hargobind Singh. Yes the practice Chandi worship. But as I previously noted, this is consistent with their sanatan philosophy.

Nihangs themselves report:

The Akalis (the soldiers of Immortal Being) came into existence during the tenure of Akali Guru Hargobind Sahib, when he created the Akal Boongah/Takht (the fort/throne of the Immortal Being) - the seat of Sikh temporal authority, built in 1606.

See this link,

Sanatan Sikhi - The Sanatan Sikhs
 

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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I am not a Hindu. This nihung theory (suicide squad and mughals) is totally new to me. I would really appreciate if you could write their history for me with sources or point me towards it. You can do this tommorow ji.

I am trying to see DG as a scripture on its own, without Guru Granth Sahib and see where it tries to lead.
 

spnadmin

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roab1 ji

I have one problem with your request -- there are no definitive sources to depend on to write the history of the Nihangs.

Here are a few reasons that make it difficult. Nihangs have written their own history -- and that tends over time to lead to a skewed account. Much of the history of the Nihangs is also based on the oral tradition -- stories told and handed down. That leads to more skew and distortion.


There is really no need for me to write a history of the Nihangs. I have posted a link. The history told by the author of Sarbloh -- who I believe is himself a Nihang.

Here is page 1 of the link on the Nihang- Akaalis in sanatan sikhism Sanatan Sikhi - The Sanatan Sikhs

You continue by clicking on Next in the lower right corner. It is several pages long.

There is another good history. Let me find it and post that link too.
 

spnadmin

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roab1 ji

Here is the other link. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sanatan-sikhism/5110-nihungs-nihangs-their-amazing-role-sikh.html

I would like to add some clarification. Sometimes you do read on the net that Guru Gobind Singh created the Nihangs. Or that they could not have been suicide squads because Sikhs do not believe in suicide.

This is an example of the kind of distortion that I am referring to. Nihang means "crocodile" and there are many references in Dasam Granth in which fierce warriors for a great moral cause are compared to crocodiles. That does not equal Guru Gobind Singh created the Nihangs.

In addition, according to some hisotry the "Nihang" warriors came to convert to Sikhism in 1699; obviously they were not Sikhs before they converted. .

Similarly Teja Singh himself traces the history of Nihangs to Guru Hargobind. So in history we have them as Sikhs during the time of the 6th Guru, and we have them as suicide squads before joining Guru Gobind Singh, only becoming Sikhs at the time of the 10th Guru.

Even today there are Nihangs who marry and those who do not. The real story is lost in the fog of war and history. So we take the part we like and run with it.
 
Oct 21, 2009
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All this instances are part of Tantric side of Shaktism.
Also Japji Sahib explains Godess Shakti as
'Eka maayi jugat viahi tin chele parvaan'
Mother Godess who brought Brahma Vishnu and Shiv to life as per Shaktism.
What do you think? How long are we going to deny that we are Hindus?
Dear roab1 ji,

I have quoted from the post to get some insight into the bani.The line quoted above is not indicative of that has been concluded. I give below the commentary of Dr. sahib sigh ji that can be treated as neutral source.

ArQ:- (lokW ivc ieh i^Awl Awm pRc`lq hY ik) iek`lI mwieAw (iksy) jugqI nwl pRsUq
hoeI qy prq`K qOr ’qy aus dy iqMn pu`qr jMm pey[ auhnW ivcoN iek (bRhmw) GrbwrI bx
igAw (Bwv, jIv-jMqW ƒ pYdw krn l`g ipAw), iek (ivSƒ) BMfwry dw mwlk bx igAw
(Bwv, jIvW ƒ irzk ApVwx dw kMm krn l`gw), Aqy ie`k (iSv) kcihrI lwauNdw hY (Bwv,
jIvW nUμ sMGwrdw hY)[


Thus according to Dr. Sahib Singh there is no involvement of 'shaktism'[ the meaning of which is not clear and the context in which it is being quoted is also not clear.l]

Guru ji is just reiterating that was in vogue and it is not getting any ratification by Guru Nanak that some Goddess was really engaged in the process giving Birth to the Trinity. It may be safely treated as an assumption only.
At many places Gurus have referred to many Hindu devas but it is just to make the bani meaningful for those who were acquainted with that kind of set up of deities. Guru ji is not ratifying the vedas/ Hindu scriptures and the things that are quoted in Bani.

This is the way that I understand and IMHO it is well accepted as well. If we do not go by principle we are bound to have many distortions that would creep in bani. If we presume that one mayi brought/created the three , we shall be accepting the theory of Avtaars and that is against sikhism. Sikhism rejects the very idea of Incarnation of God and Avtaarvaad.

I would not hesitate to say, " Where potential existence of Brahma, Siva and vishnu is referred to in sabad-guru, those deities have been described as being the creation of Karta- The Highest God and not that those Gods are in any way partners of god." I would re-iterate that the inclusion of those deities is to make the things simple for sikhs who were new to sikhi at that point of time when sikhi was being introduced and was in formative stages only.

There is no 'shakitism' involved in this. I shall be garteful if you could let me know the followings:

1. BTW what exactly do you mean by shaktism.? Kindly put in few words for our understanding.

2.Yes, the Term Bhaguati might have appeared in in bani at some places , of which I am not sure of. Please let us know where exactly the term Appears in Bani. [SGGS only and not in DG]
 
Last edited:

roab1

SPNer
Jul 1, 2009
133
229
ArQ:- (lokW ivc ieh i^Awl Awm pRc`lq hY ik) iek`lI mwieAw (iksy) jugqI nwl pRsUq
hoeI qy prq`K qOr ’qy aus dy iqMn pu`qr jMm pey[ auhnW ivcoN iek (bRhmw) GrbwrI bx
igAw (Bwv, jIv-jMqW ƒ pYdw krn l`g ipAw), iek (ivSƒ) BMfwry dw mwlk bx igAw
(Bwv, jIvW ƒ irzk ApVwx dw kMm krn l`gw), Aqy ie`k (iSv) kcihrI lwauNdw hY (Bwv,
jIvW nUμ sMGwrdw hY)[
Sorry but the explanation is unreadable.

1. BTW what exactly do you mean by shaktism.? Kindly put in few words for our understanding.
I mean the worship of Devi in form of Durga, Kalki, Chandika etc and getting power or aid in fighting evil.

Ram, Laxman, Krisna, Pandavs etc all did worship of devi and got power to fight evil in one way or the other.

If Bhagauti is Durga or it's visible form then obviously the 'Sword' is that visible devi who assists in fighting evil. So logically Sikhs are in long line of power gainers through Devi in fighting evil after Ram, Pandavs etc.

Worship of devi as supreme power is 'Shaktism' and has a sinsiter side involving sexual rituals, in that sense 'Charitropakhyan' resembles sexual stories relating to Gods in 'Puranas'. While the Gods fall in the trap of lust ego in Puranas, Guru Gobind Singh is immune in Charitropakhyan.

2.Yes, the Term Bhaguati might have appeared in in bani at some places , of which I am not sure of. Please let us know where exactly the term Appears in Bani. [SGGS only and not in DG]
I am trying to see the path set out by DG only. I dont want Guru Granth Sahib in this journey. You see, if you follow any of the Guru - lets say Guru Har Rai or Guru Tegh Bahadur or Guru Gobind Singh, you still end up following Guru Nanak. If a totally un-knowing person who has no knowledge about Sikhi is presented teachings of Guru Tegh Bahadur and later on showed Guru Nanaks teachings, he would not find any difference.

Now i am trying to shut my mind to SGGS and read only DG, and then we shall see. Makes sense?
 
Oct 21, 2009
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895
India
I think Dasam Granth or Sikhs are nearer to Shaktism. Keep in mind we dont have a definitive form of DG in complete form so anything is just a general idea about what might have been lost.

Godess Shakti known by the name of chandi in her fierce form is present with Sikhs as Bhagauti (Sri Sahib).
The purpose of charitropakhyan might have been to arouse for sexual intercourse.
Use of intoxicants is common among Nihung Dals.

All this instances are part of Tantric side of Shaktism.

Also Japji Sahib explains Godess Shakti as

'Eka maayi jugat viahi tin chele parvaan'

Mother Godess who brought Brahma Vishnu and Shiv to life as per Shaktism.

Mahakal Kalika refers to this mother Godess, which has both male and female attributes.


What do you think? How long are we going to deny that we are Hindus?
Thanks roab1 ji for your reply. Since you want to carry on with DG only , I withdraw my participation from this thread.
But I shall reply to your query.

Sikhs were born to save Hindus so they were never Hindus and shall never be Hindus.I remember a book that my friends had advised me to read but I could not go through as I could not get it. It is called as :

HUM HINDU NAHIN
 

spnadmin

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I have this reaction.

If the conversation is going to move in the direction of Mata Sundari being an incarnation of any Hindu devta - Shakti or otherwise - then the thread will be split. The issues regarding incarnations of Shakti will be moved to Interfaith Dialogs under Hinduism. Parts about Dasam Granth can stay.

In all the uproard of Professor Darshan Singh's supposed slander of the Guru Granth -- this idea never surfaced. Mata Sundari as incarnation of Shakti. Why is that not a slander of Mata Sundari who thought herself a sant-siphai.

But I am serious. If this conversation wanders into a Brahminist direction it will be split. Brahminist arguments will be moved.
 

spnadmin

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Could you present the literature?
I have heard this before but don't know where it comes from.

I have not seen the literature on this either. I think it comes from discussions on two other Sikhi forums on the Internet where Sikhism is reinvented every day -- There we can view a mystical cone of thought raised around the conversations of a small, tight circle of cyber-mahants who cook up a massala of these notions on a daily basis.
 

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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I think it appears in suraj prakash granth and many others i don't remember names of, keep in mind they were written decades after 1708. What i think is after the Mughal power had been vanquished from Punjab by Sikhs, Hindus started seeing Guru Gobind Singh with Durga or Shakti. Most of present day Punjab, Haryana & Himachal were areas where Devi puja was the religion. In Hindu religion the balance between Good and Evil is always set correct by Shakti. During Mughal period the balance was set correct by Khalsa Guru Gobind Singh. So they started connecting Guru Gobind Singh (modern annihilator of Evil) with Shakti (the traditional annihilator of Evil). Just as Durga came to aid or took form to save ancient Hindus from rakshashas in satyug, they started preaching Khalsa was form of Durga in kalyug to save them from Rakshashas (mughals) in kalyug.
 

spnadmin

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I think it appears in suraj prakash granth and many others i don't remember names of, keep in mind they were written decades after 1708. What i think is after the Mughal power had been vanquished from Punjab by Sikhs, Hindus started seeing Guru Gobind Singh with Durga or Shakti. Most of present day Punjab, Haryana & Himachal were areas where Devi puja was the religion. In Hindu religion the balance between Good and Evil is always set correct by Shakti. During Mughal period the balance was set correct by Khalsa Guru Gobind Singh. So they started connecting Guru Gobind Singh (modern annihilator of Evil) with Shakti (the traditional annihilator of Evil). Just as Durga came to aid or took form to save ancient Hindus from rakshashas in satyug, they started preaching Khalsa was form of Durga in kalyug to save them from Rakshashas (mughals) in kalyug.

roab1 ji

Thanks. I will check the Suraj Partap. From a logical point of view your answer makes sense. We just need to find the background on this.

When we do it will help me put some things into perspective also. As there is no reason to equate Guru Gobind Singh with Shakti -- he could balance the forces of good and evil on his own without help from anyother than the Satguru that dwelt within him.

I did not mention previously. Your idea of simply going through "Dasam Granth" as if with the eyes of a Vedantic scholar is an excellent strategy. It should help clarify many many themes and images getting to the bottom of the chapters' messages. Using a set of fresh eyes we might be able to sharpen our focus. :welcome:

It will make it easier in the end to discard the notion that Dasam Pita was trying to teach by using Vedic metaphors. There no evidence that he wrote any of it -- as evidence exists for Aad Granth. There is therefore no way to validate the granth as his bani. By taking your approach it can actually lead to a clear sense of the agenda for binding those books together to begin with as if they were "Sikh scriptures."
 

roab1

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Jul 1, 2009
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The ropeway between Anandpur sahib and Shrine of Naina Devi (another form of Durga) is almost complete and will be opened soon. This is a great step in taking Sikhs back to their roots. Khalsa will now be able to visit their mother who blessed Guru Gobind Singh to form a fighting force for protection of Hindus. The ropeway, announced during 300 years of Khalsa celebration, will serve as Expressway for Sikhs to go back to where they came from.

This ropeway is another proof that Sikhs are followers of Durga and are a sect of Shaktism, although they have grown quite strong. But in reality Sikhism as a fresh religion is weaning and Sikhs are reverting to Hinduism en masse. The belief system of Sikhs is purely Hindu now. They have only different appearances than Hindus but beliefs are similar.

HUM HINDU NAHIN
Then why are Sikhs building ropeways between the birth place of Khalsa and the shrine of Naina Devi? Sikhs are Hindus. Life would be much easier if truth is accepted although it is a hard pill to swallow.
 

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