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Controversial Raagmala - Is It Really Part Of Gurbani?

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Controversial Raagmala - Is It Really Part Of Gurbani?

swarn bains

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sggs is a divine book, the only one of its kind in this universe. it cannot be rewritten by anyone. it cannot be copied. and yet there are people who want to take part of it out because they do not understand it. they do not even read it. harkeerat jee you said you saw raag maala in the hand written copy. some scholar says (i want to see it but it should not have raag maala in it) what a sad story and mental acknowledgement. God bless all including those who want to mess with sggs
 

ActsOfGod

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i asked you two questions.
first your identity. you did not answer. second the number and the names of writers of sggs. you did not answer.
How is my identity relevant to the issue of raagmala?

I don't know what point you are trying to make regarding the number of writers in SGGS. Again, how is it relevant to raagmala?

Who is the writer of raagmala? Do you know?
 

ActsOfGod

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sggs is a divine book,
SGGS is most definitely not a 'book'. Swarnbains, you have betrayed yourself and exposed your level of misunderstanding.

the only one of its kind in this universe. it cannot be rewritten by anyone. it cannot be copied. and yet there are people who want to take part of it out because they do not understand it. they do not even read it.
How do you know that I don't read it? What an absurd claim.

As for understanding, you have shown your distinct lack of understanding for the basics of Sikh philosophy. Which leads me to ask, who are you really Mr. Swarn Bains?

harkeerat jee you said you saw raag maala in the hand written copy. some scholar says (i want to see it but it should not have raag maala in it) what a sad story and mental acknowledgement. God bless all including those who want to mess with sggs
I have asked you before not to make inaccurate statements. I am not a scholar. And I never said that SGGS should not have raagmala in it.

Just because it appears in a hand written copy of the bir does not automatically make it authentic. We know that people tried to make alterations right from the start, for example Bhai Banno's bir had variations which he introduced.


The truth is:

1- you don't know who authored raagmala.
2. you cannot definitively prove that it is Gurbani
3. you cannot logically and rationally explain the inconsistencies

And so you resort to rudeness and passive aggressive tactics.

[AoG]
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Swarn Ji you asked us to explain what we thought the spiritual meaning is of Ragmaala... and a few of us responded. However, aside from a translation very similar to the others, you have not actually explained what you think the actual spiritual meaning of it is. I am interested to know what you think it's saying... what do you think the spiritual message is?
 

swarn bains

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At he end of every stanza it finishes saying that all are the sons of God. in nut shell it says all are the sons of God.
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Come one there is more to it than that. Gurbani says not just are we children of God, but that in essence, we ARE God.

Please explain to me, what you think the significance of using music as metaphor in Ragmaala, and how that relates to the spiritual?
 

swarn bains

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music draws attention. it attracts the mind. it makes the person to concentrate on what the music is about. so the music in gurbani is a tool to draw your mind towards God devotionally. it creates devotion. rest rests on the individual how much effort one puts.
yes you are God. only difference that this body forgets that you are God. gurbani reminds one that you can become God again by merging in God. the essence of sikh religion is GURU. the entire sggs emphasizes to learn from the guru and them merge in the guru. the guru is God
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ, ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ ॥

Guru is mother, the father, the master and transcendent Lord.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਖਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਬੰਧਿਪ ਸਹੋਦਰਾ ॥

Guru is a friend the destroyer of ignorance, a relative and a brother.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਨਿਰੋਧਰਾ ॥

Guru is the bestowal, the teacher of God’s name. Guru’s lesson is distinct.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਬੁਧਿ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਾਰਸ ਪਰਸ ਪਰਾ ॥

Guru is the image of peace truth and intellect. Guru is the touchstone that transforms.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੋਵਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਮਜਨੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਾ ॥

Guru is a shrine, pool of nectar; to attain guru’s divine knowledge is beyond imagination.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਪ ਹਰਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਵਿਤ ਕਰਾ ॥

Guru is the Creator, the destroyer of sins; Guru purifies the sinners.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਉਧਰਾ ॥


Guru exists from the beginning, for a long time, for ages. Reciting God through guru’s teaching attains salvation.

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹਮ ਮੂੜ ਪਾਪੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰਾ ॥

O God; unite me with the guru by your grace; that I the sinner swim across holding on to him

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਰਾ ॥੧॥

Guru the true guru the God the transcendent Lord the guru; Nanak prays and pays his regard to guru the God. ||1||

ਏਹੁ ਸਲੋਕੁ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪੜਣਾ ॥

it comes twice page 250 and 262. forgive me for the inequities.
 

swarn bains

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harkeerat jee, join me on gurbani wichar. it will be very kind and nice of you. s s a
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Swarn Ji,
What I meant was... why the use of references to music specifically in Ragmaala... that is to say, why go into such detail about sons of rags etc, if the end message is simply everyone are his sons?
The way it's written speaks of much deeper insight than simply saying we are all children of God. I wanted you to explain what you think that deeper message is. (Since you asked us all to do so)
 

swarn bains

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why not u explain it, u must be more dedicated, smarter than me , but my mind is going towards gurbani wichar
 

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Dear All

Beautiful dialogue going on, particularly the fact that both Swarn Ji n Harkiran Kaur Ji have acknowledged that it is "we" who are God and not some random entity living behind the clouds. If that'd be the case than it follows:

God>Guru>Shabd>Sound>Music>Bani - [Note: Bani being an intelliagable expression].

Is it then any wonder why the Bani is in musical form and not a narrative ? There are only 77 pages of SGGSJ that are not in Raag, Raagmala therefore, forms an integral part of SGGSJ. The mystical numbering has a mystical ring to it, only insofar, conceptualisation of the ontological in the predicate sense of the word. That is to say, creators signature is numerically coded and not literally signed, pretty much like Da Vinci's Code.

Everything is Music. A writer uses words, which have an agreed meaning you can look up in the dictionary; an artist portrays images that derive from what he has actually seen in the external world; but a composer assembles sounds which, prima facie, are meaningless. You can't look up a particular chord or melodic phrase in a dictionary; you can't translate cosmic symphony into ordinary language or find out from it what a tree looks like. You can only become music yourself for you are the "music".

There is a difference between spiritually deciphering and intellectually analysing Gurbani. At a basic level this is somewhat nuanced, but at a more advanced level within the vernacular of the field, the advanced adept should be able to appropriately diagnose who is who and at what level by reference to, not so much of the omission or the failure to interpret Gurbani, but by the adept's own self awareness, exalted state of being.

Spiritual adepts whose inner hearing is in tuned to the celestial sound are forever silenced, thus, says Nanak,

ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Translation: music is my guru - in the sound of music is my consciousness soaked. Nanak is said to be "adios amigos" - meaning out of time n space.

ਸਬਦੁ = sound = word = is music, that is ANHAD SHABD. So when it is written that ਸਭੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਗੰਨ ਕੇ [1430 SGGSJ]; Translation; all are children of music, meaning SHABD; think of it being as the body a field of invisible vibrations or frequencies - musical notes on a violin string, Nanak singing, Bala n Mardana playing the tune.

Swarn Ji, I quite enjoyed your post #68, bar, music is Bani n not tool. However, the Guru [instrument] has expressed it in a form containing 1430 pages - let us enjoy for your Gurmukhi skill is commendable.

Thank you - time for my morning jog !

Au Revoir

 

Harkiran Kaur

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Google cymatics if you'd like to see how simple sound can create complex objects out of thin air!
Here:
 

swarn bains

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you must be a highly educated person. by the way why is sggs written music that also in classical music. why the summation in rag mala is also in music. i was wondering if you could put your own perspective , your own feeling please
 

Harkiran Kaur

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you must be a highly educated person. by the way why is sggs written music that also in classical music. why the summation in rag mala is also in music. i was wondering if you could put your own perspective , your own feeling please
Put most simply, music is the language of the soul... it's the way that we can reach that part of us which we can't normally reach. I saw a video once of a baby, hardly a few months old. The baby was completely happy and smiling at his Mother who started to sing to him. Even though the baby did not understand the lyrics or meaning of the song, the melody itself conveyed the message, as the baby started to show tears. When the song was done, he stopped... these were not tears of fear etc. They were pure emotion, that came from somewhere beyond that little baby body or infant mind. Somewhere deeper that understood the sad message in the music.

Sikh scholars have surmised that Gurbani, meant to be sung, is much more than the words and the meaning contained within those words. It's poetry... with certain timing and certain rhymes. The sounds of reciting Gurbani can affect us in it's own right, without ever even knowing the meaning of what's being sung. The vibrations of those sounds etc. As you could see in the above video how mere sound (and they were only using single discrete frequencies which can actually create complex forms - some of which look eerily similar to skeletal forms of animals) so it's easy to understand how sound of Gurbani could evoke complex forms within us - the vibrations, can actually alter us, arranging our very being into new more complex forms- not at the macro level, but at the very base level of our physical being..to do what? I believe it's adjusting the radio dial so to speak, so we can tune into what exists beyond this. Tune into the truth about who we are... I think the sounds / vibrations of reciting Gurbani (and Gurmantar - Waheguru), just as much as the words or meanings, are working to open dasam dwar on micro cellular level.
 

swarn bains

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wonderful. we need such lessons and discussions. it is the future of man kind if they are not stuck to their own mind. thank u for the wonderful discourse madam
 

ravneet_sb

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Sat Sri Akaal,

There are many computer lannguages/ programe etc

and former versions scientific language C, COBOL, JAVA etc

and basic version like machine language, binary codes 0 and 1

and beyond 0 1

there is one impulse response yes code is 1 no code is 0

Till one doesn't respond to "1" it's "0"

Ultimate is "ONE"

So do all the tunes source is "ONE" rest is children

"Breath" is the common source of "Communication" for all humans

All languages are children of "Breath"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji Ki Fateh
 

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Sat Sri Akaal,

There are many computer lannguages/ programe etc

and former versions scientific language C, COBOL, JAVA etc

and basic version like machine language, binary codes 0 and 1

and beyond 0 1

there is one impulse response yes code is 1 no code is 0

Till one doesn't respond to "1" it's "0"

Ultimate is "ONE"

So do all the tunes source is "ONE" rest is children

"Breath" is the common source of "Communication" for all humans

All languages are children of "Breath"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji Ki Fateh
...well defined ! Concluding salok of JJS says, thus, "pavan guru, pani pita, mata dharat mahat" [oxygen is guru......], and Guru in Sikhism is both synonymously and actually , God. Dig deep and you'll find "anhad shabd" [celestrial sound], which is the B n E of all there is, there was and shall be [meaning, ad sat jugad sat...]. Just as "time" is measured in seconds, mins...days, wks, mnths, etc so is "sound" captured [particularly, gurbani] in "pads" [breath].

Well done, beautifully articulated !
 

swarn bains

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Rag maala is taking a different twist
let us see if the binary numbers can solve this riddle
ਪੰਨਾ 647

ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ

The divine persons speak the sacred discourse that is common to all

ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਭਉ ਕਰੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ

The guru-willed who listens intently realizes himself

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ

By guru’s grace, one becomes humble and the mind conquers the mind

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੈ ਗਿਆਨੈ

Those who do not have faith in the mind; how can they speak divine wisdom O Nanak
 

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