Dasam Granth Miter Pyare Nu

Discussion in 'Dasam Granth' started by Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon

    Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon Writer SPNer

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    This composition is sung in Gurdwaras by ragis and kirtanias as kirtan.

    We have been told that Miter Pyare Nu depicts a prayer Guru Gobind Singh ji made to God during his moments alone in the jungles of Machiwara.

    We have also been told that the terms “Miter Pyara” (my beloved friend) refers to “God” and that the “tenth Guru is narrating his solitary situation in Machiwara after the final battle of Chamkaur.”

    Pictures such as the following, showing Guru Gobind Singh ji resting alone on the floor, barefooted, and injured are normally found printed with verses from MitarPyare Nu. The four verses of this composition are said to describe this situation.

    ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਨੂੰ ਹਾਲ ਮੁਰੀਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਕਹਿਣਾ ॥

    ਤੁਧੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਰਜਾਈਆਂ ਦਾ ਓਢਣ ਨਾਗ ਨਿਵਾਸਾਂ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਣਾ ॥

    ਸੂਲ ਸੁਰਾਹੀ ਖੰਜਰੁ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਬਿੰਗ ਕਸਾਈਆਂ ਦਾ ਸਹਿਣਾ ॥

    ਯਾਰੜੇ ਦਾ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸੱਥਰੁ ਚੰਗਾ ਭੱਠ ਖੇੜਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣਾ ॥੧॥੧॥

    Mitar Pyare Nu Haal Murida Da Kehna.

    Tudh Ben Rog Rajayean Da Odhan Naag Nivasa Dey Rehna.

    Sool Surahee Khanjar Pyala Bingg Kasayean Da Sehna.

    [Yarera Da Sanu Sathar Changa Bhath Kheriaya Da Rehna.

    WHERE IS MITER PYARE NU FROM

    Miter Pyare Nu is titled ਖਿਆਲ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥ (Khyaal Patshahi 10) which translates as “The Thoughts of the 10th Master.”

    The composition is NOT from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGS).

    It is found on page 709 of the Dasam Granth (DG). In Taksalee Gutkas, the composition is listed as one of the 10 Shabads of a compostion titled “Shabad Hazare” which literally means “shabads equivalent of one thousand shabads. The connotation is that reading one “shabad” from “shabad hazare” gives one the benefit equal to reading one thousand other shabads.

    Miter Pyare Nu is one such “shabad.” Reading it will be equivalent to reading 1,000 other shabads.

    It can also be found in the Amrit Kirtan book under the title Khyaal Patshahi 10 without reference to the DG.

    We know that the DG contains compositions that are lifted from three major sources – the Markandey Puran, Shiv Puran and Sri Mad Bhagvat Puran.

    Such lifting is acknowledged by the three main authors: Poets Syam, Raam and Nul. This acknowledgement can be found at the end of each composition. Poet Syam’s and Ram’s name as the writers appear as individual writers at 165 pages of DG and as co-writers at 15 pages of DG, suggesting that they worked together.

    There are other sources of the DG’s compositions and one of them is classical folklore.

    A critical examination of the meanings of the composition Miter Pyare Nu is thus required to enable us to trace its origins.



    DAMODAR, WARIS SHAH AND THE STORY OF HEER RANJHA

    Damodar (1550s) was a classical poet of Punjab. He is the first person to compose the folklore legend of Heer Ranjha.

    The opening lines of Damodar’s story are telling of his passion towards the tale of Heer Ranjha. “Damodar is my name, Gulati is my caste. I came to the fiefdom of the Sial (neighbouring Jhang Village). My heart, using its discretion, led me to spend my days there, and write this Kissa.”

    Waris Shah ਵਾਰਿਸਸ਼ਾਹ (1722–1798) was a Punjabi Sufi poet of Chishti order, renowned for his contribution to Punjabi literature.

    He is best known for his seminal poem Heer Ranjha, which in essence is a re-write based on the traditional folk tale of Heer and her lover Ranjha as conceptualized by Damodar.

    He is not the only one to have done so. Poets Muqbal and Charag Awan are others who have re-written Damodar’s Heer Ranjha into modern language.



    THE CHARACTERS OF DAMODAR AND WARIS SHAH’S FOLKLORE

    The primary character of Varas Shah’s (and Damodar’s) Kissa (folklore) is a young female named Heer, belonging to Siaal fiefdom, who is the daughter of a man named Chuchak.

    The secondary character is a young male named Dheedo, belonging to Ranjha Caste who is a resident of Takhat Hazare.

    Heer and Dheedo Ranjha are lovers whose relationship is bitterly opposed by her parents and relatives.

    As part of their design to prevent Heer from continuing her romantic liason with Dheedo Ranjha, she is forcibly married to a wealthy resident of Gangpur, of the Kherey Caste. This village, located in the district of Jhang, still stands today as Gangpur Kherey-an Da.

    Heer is forcibly married, but her yearning mind (khyaal) is depicted by a poet as follows:

    Mitar Pyare Nu – To my beloved friend.

    Haal Mureeda Da Kehna. – I say my pitiful condition as your devoted one .

    Tudh Ben – Without you / separated from you / taken away from you.

    Rog Rajayeean da Odhen – The fine/rich bed covers & sheets (of my wealthy home) are a suffering bearing disease (rog).

    Naag Nivasa de Rehna – I am living in the company of poisonous serpents.

    Sool Surahi – The decanter (pot) of liquor (served to me) is in reality a spear.

    Khanjar Pyala – The liqour glass is a dagger.

    Bingg – fat removing hollow heated metal rod that is inserted into the back of an animal while alive. The protruding half is heated under a flame. The heat travels through the rod and allows the fat from within the animal’s body melt and pour out throw its hollow design.

    Kasayeean da Sehna – I have to bear the pain of the Bingg inserted into me by butchers.

    Yarrey da sanu sathar changa – In my sweet lover’s company a bare bed is better.

    Bhath Kherey-an da rehna – living within the Khere household has become unbearable / painful – akin to being kept burning in a furnace.



    QUESTIONS APLENTY

    Sikhs who believe that the composition is:

    1. composed by Guru Gobind Singh ji,
    2. depicts his mental /spiritual condition in the jungles of Machiwara after Chamkaur and that;
    3. Miter Pyare Nu is fit for singing as spiritual kirtan in the sanggat and presence of SGGS ji;
    need to think hard over the following SEVEN questions.



    ONE: Would Guru Gobind Singh ji use vocabulary that is contained in Miter Pyare Nu?

    Why would our Guru use words such as Odhen (Bedding), Naag (Serpents), Surahi (Liqour pot/decanter), Pyala (Liquor Goblet), Kasayee (Butcher), Binggg (hollow metal rod poked into an alive animal’s behind); Sathar (bare bed or sleeping on the floor); Bhath (large hot furnace)’; and Kherey ( a caste of people)?



    TWO: Would Guru ji paint such a painful /ugly picture of his situation?

    His father Guru Teg Bahadur ji was beheaded in Delhi and Guruji’s head was brought and delivered to the young Guru Gobind Singh ji. He did not complain to God or to anybody.

    Guru ji’s eldest Sahibzada Baba Ajeet Singh died before his own eyes. He did NOT cry out to God in agony. Instead he sent the second one Baba Jujhar Singh to die in the same battle.

    His younger Sahibzadey were brutally executed and his mother would pass on within hours of such brutality. Guru Gobind Singh ji never uttered any words of complaint to God.

    Why would he chose to do so in Machiwara? And that, too, by using such questionable vocabulary?



    THREE: What context or situation was Guruji in to use such words as contained in Miter Pyare Nu?

    In all the sacrifices that Guru Gobind Singh ji endured, he NEVER ONCE depicted his life as akin to “living with serpents, suffering the pain of butchers, being tortured with a Bingg or being in a hot furnace – even when faced with the ultimate of sacrifices of his parents, four children and beloved Khalsa in the battle fields. Why would he do so in Mahicawara?



    FOUR: What is the depiction of Guru ji’s state of mind should one attribute the verses of Miter Pyare Nu to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.?

    The verses of this composition are clear that the subject/writer of the composition is in tremendous pain, agony and unbearable suffering. The degree of pain brings about a mind set of complaint and distress. There is also a feeling of being deserted that comes out of the verses.

    Can such EVER be the state of mind of our Guruji?



    FIVE: What is the overall resultant emotive state of the reader?

    The pain and agony of the verses is powerful that it gets transferred to the reader. The reader or listener cringes and gets into a state of distress. Is this the emotion that Guru Gobind Singh wanted Sikhs to have regarding his stay in Machiwara (If indeed he wrote this composition)?



    SIX: Is the narrative of Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s behaviour (as suggested by Miter Pyare Nu – one of pain, distress, agony and complaint) comparable to the behaviour of Guru Arjun Ji and Guru Teg Bahadur Ji?

    Guru Arjun Patshah sat on a hot plate, was boiled in a couldron, had hot sand poured over his body in unspeakable and continuous torture for three nights in a row. He eventually gave his life for his cause.

    Are there any shabads in the SGGS suggesting that Guru Ji complained, was in distress, pain, or agony?

    Alternatively, is there any other record suggesting such, given that there were many spiritual people of that time who witnessed the horrendous tortures that Guru ji endured as an epitome of peace?

    The following messages written by Guru Arjun ji are available in the SGGS.

    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

    ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੀਠਾ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 392

    Asa M: 5. Aath Peher Nikat Kar Janay. Prabh Ka Keea Meetha Manay.

    I consider God to be within me every minute. All that He does, I acceptin sweet compliance.



    ਆਸਾ ਘਰੁ ੭ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

    ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਤ ਧਿਆਈ ॥ ਸੰਗੀ ਸਾਥੀ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਾਂਗੈ ॥੨॥੪੨॥੯੩॥

    Asa M: 5. Har Ka Naam Ridey Nit Dhiayee. Sangee Sathee Sagal Taree. 1 Gur Mere Sang Sdaa Hai Naley. Simar Simar Tis Sda Smalay. 1. Rahao. Tera Keea Meetha Lagey. Har Naam Padarath Nanak Mangey (SGGS, 394)

    God, You are with me ALWAYS. Your doing is considered sweet.

    Similarly, Guru Teg Bahadur sat cross-legged with calm in Chandni Chowk as he waited for the executioner’s sword to take his life with a single swing.

    Is there any shabad in the SGGS, or any record elsewhere, that suggests that the ninth Guru had any complaints, was in distress, in agony or in pain?

    Three other Sikhs suffered horrendous deaths with the ninth Guru – Bhai ji’s Dyala, Satee Daas and Matee Daas ji. Is there even a single narration of them being in distress, agony, pain and hence complained ?

    Surely Guru Gobind Singh Patshah was aware of the courage, peace, calm and sacrifice of his own ancestors.

    And Guru Gobind Singh ji is ALIVE, in Machiwara.



    SEVEN: How do we apply the verses of Miter Pyare Nu as being said by the tenth Guru to God?

    Tudh Ben means “separated from you”. Are we saying Guru Gobind Singh ji is saying there is “No God in Machiwara?” Or that Guru ji got “separated from God in Machiwara”? Or that God deserted Guru Gobind Singh ji in Machiwara? Or that someone “took Guruji away from God forcibly”?

    In the shabad above, Guru Arjun ji is saying ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ (Gur Merey Sang Sdaa Hai Nalley) meaning God, You are with me ALWAYS. And here we have Guru Gobind Singh ji supposedly saying “God why have You deserted me”?

    The principle of SGGS is:

    ਤੂੰ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ਜਿਥੈ ਹਉ ਜਾਈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

    Tu Sabhnee Thaeen, Jithey Haon Jayee. GGS 438.

    You exist at ALL locations that I go.



    ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤੂ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ॥

    Jeh Dekha Tu Sabhnee Thaee GGS 1052.

    You exist at ALL locations.

    ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਖਾ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ਤਾ ਭਉ ਕੇਹਾ ਕਾੜਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

    Tu Mera Rakha Sabhnee Thaee Ta Bhau KEha Kaara Jio GGS 103.

    You Protect me at ALL locations, so why would I fear or worry?



    is Mahiwara out of the parameter of Sabhnee Thaeee (all locations), that Guru Gobind Singh feels deserted by God to the point that he says “Tudh Ben Rog ….” I am a suffering diseased being..”?

    Rog Rajayeea Da Odhen means The fine/ rich bed covers are a disease / suffering. What fine rich bed covers could “Guruji” be reffering to? And what disease?

    Naag Niwasa Dey Rehna means “Life is in the company of poisonous serpents”. Who are the serpents and which serpents is “Guru ji” refffering to?

    Sool Surahi Khanjar Pyala means “The decanter / pot of liquor is a spear, the liquor glass /goblet is a dagger.”

    What is being referred to by using the paraphernalia of drunkenness – a state condemned in the SGGS?

    Bingg Kasayeean da Sehna means – enduring the torture of a fat removing hollow heated metal rod? What metal rod, and what torture is “Guru ji” talking about? Who inserted the Bingg into whom?

    Yarrey da sanu sathar changa. In my Lover’s company I prefer a bare bed? What are the connotations when someone attributes such stuff to any Guru?

    Bhath Khereyan de Rehna means “Living with the Kherey has become unbearable.” Which Kherey is Guru Gobind Singh Ji referring to? When and why was he ever in the company of any Kherey? There is no mention of any Kherey in the life and times of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Even if he was, why would he condemn a whole group of people based on their caste?


    MAKING SENSE OF MITER PYARE NU

    Going by the meanings of the four verses of this composition Miter Pyare Nu, it becomes clear that is is NOT composed by Guru Gobind Singh ji under any circumstances.

    This is because Guru ji was never in a situation of agony and complaint ever. Even in the most difficult of situations, all our Gurus were always an epitome of peace and calm within the Hukm and Rzaa of God. They were always in Chardee Klaa. And they were NEVER in complaint.

    It is clear that the origin of Miter Pyare Nuis folklore; as conceptualized by poets Damodar and Waris Shah.

    Inspired by such folklore, a poet has coined the verses to depict the pain, agony and distress that filled the heart and mind of Heer as a result of forcible separation from her illicit lover Dheedo Ranjha.

    Her pangs of separation and tormented self that are caused by her marriage against her wishes into the Kherey family is captured in Miter Pyare Nu. In her Khyaals (imaginations), Heer has come to despise the Kherey family.

    It is to Heer that the fine/ rich bed covers given to her in her rich Kheyrey in-laws are seen as a disease / suffering (Rog Rajayeea Da Odhen).

    It is Heer who prefers a bare bed so long as she get to be in her separated lover Ranjha’s company (Yarrey Da Sanu Sathar Changa).

    It is Heer that feels staying with the Kherey family is to live in the company of poisonous serpents (Naag Niwasa Dey Rehna).

    It is Heer who is enduring the torture that is akin to the torture of a fat removing hollow heated metal rod (Bingg Kasayeean da Sehna).

    It is Heer who being served liquor in the rich in laws home; sees even the intoxicants as pain and suffering (Sool Surahi Khanjar Pyala – the decanter / pot of liquor is a spear, the liquor glass /goblet is a dagger).

    It is Heer who has reason to say that her forced marriage into the Kherey family has become unbearable (Bhath Khereyan de Rehna “Living with the Kherey has become torturous.”)



    CONCLUSIONS

    How, why and under what circumstances this composition managed to make its way into the Dasam Granth, into Taksali Gutkas, Amrit Kirtan and began to be sung as Kirtan by ragis and kirtanias in our Gurdwaras IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SGGS is the key question.

    It also begs another question: Have we Sikhs been so gullible to have been singing and listening to Heer’s agonising cries to her lover Dheedo Ranjha presented to us as “spiritual kirtan” in our Gurdwaras – all because someone fraudulently stamped the words “Patshahi 10” above the composition?

    How was it possible to commit such a cruel deception upon Sikhs seeking solace in Kirtan in the company of the SGGS? How was it possible to declare Heer Ranja song as “shabad hazare” – equivalent of singing / reciting 1,000 other shabads?

    The adulterated title of this composition says “Khayaal Patshahi 10.” Who has the capacity to step into the mind of our Great Guru and figure out his thoughts and his imaginations (Khyaal)? And then decide that his thoughts are indeed disturbed, painful, agonizing, distress filled and overflowing with complaint?

    Didn’t we come across this verse in the SGGS:

    ਉਲਾਹਨੋ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ ਮਨ ਮੀਠ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਕੀਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

    Ulahno Mein Kahu Na Deyo. Mun Meeth Tuharo Keeo. SGGS 978

    I have no complaints to You. My mind accepts at sweet all that You do, God.

    It is in verses of SGGS such as these that the actual Khyaals of our Gurus is to be found.

    One can suppose Miter Pyare Nu (and there are many other deceptions waiting to be exposed) is what happens when ragis and kirtanias sing without knowing the meanings of what they sing and sanggat sit and sway their heads and get moved to tears, because they too don’t know what they are hearing.

    Will Sikhs have the courage to say NO MORE Miter Pyare Nu in our Kirtan, in our Gurdwaras disguised as spiritual message?

    WHAT DOES MITER PYARE NU SAY ABOUT DASAM GRANTH?

    For one thing it shows that the DG is an utterly adulterated collection of compositions from a variety of sources.

    Apart from stuff that found it way into the DG from the Markandey Puran, Shiv Puran. Shansarnama, Sri Mudh Bhagvat Puran etc, it is clear that folklore depicting illicit romantic liaisons, too, have found its way into the pages of DG.

    Secondly, Miter Pyare Nu lays bare the conspiracy that the DG is the work of elements who are bent on corrupting the spirituality of Sikhi.

    As if corrupting it with compositions from rejected scriptures was not enough, the elements resorted to romaticised folklore; leading the way perhaps to the inclusion of some 600 pages of erotica.

    Thirdly, Miter Pyare Nu lays bare the crippling inability of some of our ragis, kirtenias and parcharaks to see through the conspiracy that is the DG.

    Is such blindness going to put Guru Gobind Singh ji’s khyaals on par with those whose thoughts and imaginations are depraved?

    Finally, Miter Pyare Nu is provides one more reason to a mountain of other reasons why Sikhs should reject attempts to bring compositions of the DG (other than the three sanctioned by the SRM) into our katha and kirtan in the presence of the SGGS.
     
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  3. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh SPNer

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    ONE: Would Guru Gobind Singh ji use vocabulary that is contained in Miter Pyare Nu?

    Why would our Guru use words such as Odhen (Bedding), Naag (Serpents), Surahi (Liqour pot/decanter), Pyala (Liquor Goblet), Kasayee (Butcher), Binggg (hollow metal rod poked into an alive animal’s behind); Sathar (bare bed or sleeping on the floor); Bhath (large hot furnace)’; and Kherey ( a caste of people)?



    Sir ,whats wrong with this vocabulary ?
     
  4. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur

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    Excellent exposition. The short answer is, like much of what I have read in DG, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wouldn’t write these things.
     
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  5. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    Ik onkar to all !

    Great to see you here Doctor Ji! I saw your video about Dasam Granth and have made some comments on it on this very forum. Your great supporter with the title of "Gyani" did offer an explanation on some of my points towards your video, but if you get a chance please look and respond to it. It would be great to discuss that directly with yourself.



    Khiyal is also a style of musical performance, in which a poem can be sung/recited.


    Some works of DG are, and those that are, are clearly noted in the endings as being from particular sources. Even these are written in Guru Sahib own unique style.


    The poets Syam and Ram had a place in the formation of certain works according to Mehma Parkash. But they were not the actual authors of the works their names appear in.


    This is again corroborated by Mehma Parkash.


    Absolutely. Life is a big never question.

    I do have one for you before i carry on. Is this post made by you, based on the works/thoughts of Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala? He wrote someting similiar a year or so ago. I had wanted to discuss it with him on Facebook where he had posted it, but he blocked me after my first post/question.



    What is it about these words that make them look out of place?

    Bedding, serpents, liquor etc all appear in SGGS.


    Who says it's a ugly picture? The picture to me is one of never-ending vishvash in the Creator. One of love and dedication to the primal Purkh.


    The situation was that even though Guru Sahib was alone, he was by himself, he was as dedicated to the charan of Sri Kaal Purkh

    Guru Sahib's mind is one of love and acceptance. Guru Sahib is saying this existence in Macchiwara jungle is so beautiful to me, yet that life filled with luxuries without you is one full of pain to me.


    Well that is really subjective isn't it. It all depends on the mind of the reader. If the reader is full of vikaar and shanka then that is reflected in the emotional state of the reader.


    Complaint? maybe you need to research this further DKS. This shabad is not one of complaint, but love and devotion.

    Just as Guru Arjan Patshah says sitting on the hot tavi: " tera kia meetha lage." (although some from the Missionary School think that Guru Arjan Patshah fainted sitting on the hot tavi.


    "Tudh Bin" means "without you".

    "separated from you" in terms of gurbani is written by "vichhora" and this word and similiar come up many times in SGGS.


    "Right so first you write "Tudh Ben means “separated from you" and now you are writing that "Tudh Ben Rog ….” I am a suffering diseased being.."


    That doesn't make sense. Look at what you have written.


    Luxury without Guru Sahib's beloved Sri Akaal Purkh.




    Luxury without Guru Sahib's beloved Sri Akaal Purkh.



    Luxury without Guru Sahib's beloved Sri Akaal Purkh.




    Drunkenness? I think you need to reaxamine the the whole shabad again. try and understand descriptive writing, metaphors etc.


    "bing" also means "crooked" or "bent" and in this case it means a butchers hook. The same hook that a butcher will hang the animal on to make it easier to process. Who would spend hours removing fat from an animals rectum of all places, when butchers can remove the same much easily and quichly by hanging it fro ma hook and removing its skin?



    The same connotations that Guru Nanak Dev Ji used in SGGS to compare the soul to a woman and her beloved to Sri Paramatma.


    "Bhath" also means furnace. Guru Sahib is describing the heat of a furnace as a metaphor for being away from Sri Antarjami.


    Very easily. Guru Gobind Singh wrote it himself and it was included in DG.


    Thats not true, only those which Guru Gobind Singh used are mentioned in the ending of the chapters. Plus the work by Guru Sahibs own hand is an abridged version.


    Well lets go back to your initial assessment of this subject. From my understanding the two people in this relationship were both singlew and wished to marry but the family did not let it happen. How is that illicit?


    A false conspracy to all. But there are some who beleive that world is flat, there is some kind of inside job on 9-11, and some new world order thing going on.



    Which "rejected scriptures" have been corrupting Sikhs ?

    What about SGGS quoting those same "rejected scriptures" for some purpose of higher learning?


    I don't think the crippling inability in confined to these raagis you speak of.



    Sir, there is nothing wrong with it. Unless you want to claim that Guru Granth Sahib should not contain these words either.
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    sorry this does not make sense to me, at what point is Guru without God that he would know what that would feel like?
     
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  7. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Mentor SPNer

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    I am wondering when we have authenticated complete revelations written and installed by our own Guru's time and by our own Guru, why should we run and waste time on un-authenticated books written hundreds of years after our tenth Guru left.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  8. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    Guru Sahib isn't without "God." I'm a little worried that you even ask this question. You seem to be taking it as a literal reference. Guru Sahib saying "tudh bina" meaning "without you" as a term of shardha.

    I think you already know this.


    Hundreds of years? Does Guru Granth Sahib tell you to tell and spread lies?

    Yet you were not so forthcoming when I asked what proof you had to claim that Guru Granth Sahib was installed as Guru by Guru Gobind Singh.

    And what of those practices that are not contained in Guru Granth Shaib ie 5 K's, khande ki pahul, aagya bhe akal ki....these are not authenticated by Gurus anywhere, so why are we still holding onto these ?
     
  9. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    I have no agenda. I am an SPNer. My action on this forum is to think, learn, share, discuss and evolve. What can I do if you have a problem with that? I am only asking questions. You are responding with hysterics.
     
  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    me, no I don't know anything, I like to keep it that way, everything changes, so knowing everything is pretty pointless.

    The narrative points towards a deep longing for something that is lost, so it is not just a literal reference but the entire theme
     
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  11. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Mentor SPNer

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    May be you have more authenticity. Please tell when was that assembled and called Sri Dasam Granth and also sahib
    So you are disputing on installing SGGS by Guru Gobind Singh. You mean instead he installed Sri Dasam Granth as guru or did he left unfinished job on Dera and Baba and so called sant.
     
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  12. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    You have already these answers from me. I know that you understood those answers. I know because you couldnt respond to those questions in a gentlemanly manner. What can I do if you refuse to accept or understand those answers?



    See what I mean? I never said this directly or indirectly. I asked you a question. You couldn't answer.



    And here is where I know that you understood my answer. You have gone off an a tangent with your "baba" and "DG" phobia.
     
  13. Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon

    Dr Karminder Singh Dhillon Writer SPNer

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    Words are always neutral. So there can be nothing wrong with just words alone.

    For instance, the following words:

    Ghoree (Female horse); Bhug (Genitals); Jeebh (Tongue); Dayee (inserted); Sau Baar (one hundred times); Turat (immediately; Rog (disease); Kateyo (cured); Baed (medicine man); Upchaar (treatment).

    So what’s wrong with the above words? What;s wrong with the vocabulary? Answer: Nothing.

    Now when we use these words and string them into a couplet; this is what results:

    Dohra. Ya Ghoree Ko Bhug Bikhay, Jeeb Dayee Sau Baar.

    Turat Rog Hamaro Kateyo, Suno Baed Upchaar.

    Meaning: I inserted my tongue into the genitals of the female horse one hundred times. Listen, O medicine man, with this treatment my disease was cured in an instant.

    Now we ask the same question: So what is wrong with the same words that are now strung into a Dohra (couplet)?

    Now if someone asked the question “Who is the “I” ? Who is the “Author?”

    The answer would be “Where is this couplet coming from”

    The answer is that the above Dohra is coming from the Dasam Granth. It is contained on Page 899 of The Dasam Granth. The translation is taken from Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi’s Teeka of Dasam Granth, Vol 4, Page 242.

    The claim by the believers of Dasam Granth is that the author of Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

    So now, I would like to ask you “ Sir, What is wrong with the words?” and “Sir what is wrong with the Dohra?” and “Sir, what is wrong with the claim that the author of the above filth is ……….”?

    Apply the same argument to Miter Pyare Nu and you will get the answers to your questions.
     
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  14. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod Writer SPNer

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    What about these lines from Slok M:9? How would these be looked upon, in this context? (Complaint/distress/suffering?)

    ਬਲੁ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਬੰਧਨ ਪਰੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਤ ਉਪਾਇ ॥
    My strength is exhausted, and I am in bondage; I cannot do anything at all.


    ਸੰਗ ਸਖਾ ਸਭਿ ਤਜਿ ਗਏ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਨਿਬਹਿਓ ਸਾਥਿ ॥
    My associates and companions have all deserted me; no one remains with me

    53 of 58 Salok Mahalla 9, Page 1429
     
  15. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod Writer SPNer

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    I tried looking for the source of these poetic lines, couldn't find the lines anywhere in here:

    English eBook The Love of Hir and Ranjha (Waris Shah)

    Unfortunately I cannot read the original (urdu?). Is there any link to the source so I can verify?

    [AoG]
     
  16. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod Writer SPNer

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    Which poet? Is this present in Damodar's writing or Waris Shah?

    I couldn't find it here. Am I looking in the wrong place? Where's the source?



     
  17. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh SPNer

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    "Apply the same argument to Miter Pyare Nu" ??

    how can same argument applies to Miter pyare nu ? kindly explain!
     

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