Sahni ji,
Guru Fateh.
Very well said and thanks so much for your input. I agree with you in many aspects. Let's see what the viewpoint of notanotherloginplease is. He/she in the post below contradicts him/herself.
Originally Posted by notanotherloginplease
Apologies if I have cited an anti gurmatt sakhi according to you. But I dont find it anti gurmatt. It would be right to say that I have cited sakhi which has never proved to be happened in reality. In that case I apologize. But still it wont change the intention behind his sakhi, which I guess everybody can understand. Changing bani with your own 'matt' is forbidden or not considered right. I think thats what we can call anti gurmatt.
Please let me know if you are Ok with changing bani. I am not.
Let's take this one by one what is in bold written by him.
It would be right to say that I have cited sakhi which has never proved to be happened in reality.
If the above Sakhi did not happen in reality with which I happen to agree with, then his latter comment,
Please let me know if you are Ok with changing bani. I am not. contradicts the former one.
If the Sakhi did not happen, then no one has changed any part of the Gurbani. Period. End of discussion. He/she has answered his/her own question. Nothing took place according to his first statement.
We can not take these Sakhis on their face value to prove our point in the interaction and mind you, I do not blame notanotherloginplease for quoting this Sakhi because it has been quoted by so called Sikh Scholars in their Kathas, Keertan/Kathas quite often to argue their senseless point as you very well said in your own post.
We all misspell Gurbani, Words in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji larivaar are changed unintentionally, we skip some words in the same manner all the times while reading Gurbani loudly or silently. To make mistake is a human nature and especially it is understandable for us Sikhs when we make mistakes intentionally or unintentionally as long as we learn from them. Sikhi is all about learning,unlearning and relearning daily.
Secondly, Ik Ong Kaar is not vengeful, punisher as the gods of Abrahamic religions and others are. Moolmantar shows us that. If we understand it properly, Nirvair, Nirbhau Ik Ong Kaar teaches us through our Gurus that we should become conversationalists which will make us cultivate internal manifestation within others rather than the external impositions as the dogmas of the other religions command their honchos to dictate that to the followers.
Thanks to our visionary Gurus, we do not have any Pope/Popa in our way of life called Sikhi. Each of us is responsible to carry the Sikhi torch lit in a responsible manner.
Now coming back to the topic of discussion. I asked some questions to notanotherloginplease and they are worth repeating here in order to deepen/widen our thought process in Sikhi. I will answer them myself for more clarification.
1. What does Ghumar (Potter) mean in Hindu religion?
In Hinduism, a potter- Ghumar is a low caste person who will never hop scotch to any higher caste no matter how many reincarnations he/she goes through, the latter belief, the Hindus believe in fervently because a Brahmin will always be reincarnated as a Brahmin not as a potter/Ghumar.
Let me also add one more thing. This is the reason Sikhi acknowledges reincarnation but cultivates internal manifestation in these fervent believers that if you follow a Sikhi Path, then you will get rid of this silly belief. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is filled with these examples and encouragements to get rid of this belief. Acknowledgement of some belief in other religions is not an acceptance in Sikhi
2. What does Ghumar-Potter mean in Islam and the two other Abrahamic religions?
Having explained the meaning of Ghumar-potter in Hinduism in which the person is a low caste reject, let's delve what it means in the Abrahamic religions of which Islam is part and parcel of.
Potter means God in all 3 Abrahamic religions, unlike some low caste reject like in Hinduism who shall remain at the bottom of the totem pole of hierarchy.
The Torah or OT, the Jewish Scripture, The New Testament NT, The Holy Bible- The Christian scripture and The Holy Koran- The Muslim Scripture are filled with the verses singing praises of The Potter- Ghumar.
3. Does it mean the same thing in the above 2?
Answered above in 2.
4. Who is the Shabad addressed to by Guru Nanak, Hindus or to the Muslims?
This beautiful Shabad is addressed to the Muslims on page 466 in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. And the more important thing which we should always keep in mind is that this Shabad was penned by Guru Nanak a couple of centuries before this so called Sakhi supposed to had had taken place.
Sahni ji,I am sure you are aware with the help of your great Gurmat wisdom that this Shabad was addressed to the Muslims for whom Ghumar- The Potter is God and not to the Hindus for whom Ghumar- Potter is a low caste reject and shall remain so no matter how many births and deaths the potter goes through.
Now, allow me to request you to share your vast Gurmat wisdom with us.
Based on the above, would your understanding of the Shabad and the nonexistence/existence of the Ram Rai Sakhi change?
Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh