The only miracle that is in a Gurdwara is the saad sangat singing gurbani with understanding and devotion. Try ironing a silk cloth with a paper khanda placed behind and then let water drip in that area may work a miracle. Serdang has lots of birds which come into houses and they peck to eat (bow) to whatever they are perched on and naturally take a drink.
Pacific Miraculous Sign At Sikh Temple, Or . Is It Another Sign Of Sikh Gullibility With Miracles?
- Thread starter Chaan Pardesi
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WGKK ,WGKF
Saadh sangat g , Satguru Guru Granth Sahib g tey puran bharosa rakho g . Dasam Pathshah g dey bachna anusaar .SARI DUNIYAA KHUAAR HO RAHI HAI . JIS PRKAAR MACCHI (FISH) PATHAR CHAT KAY MURDI HAI THIK USI PRKAAR IS DUNIYA NEY SAHIB SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB G DI SHARAN VICH AAVEGI .(KHUAAR HOYE SAB MILAHANGEY , BACHHE SHARAN JO HOYE . RAAJ KAREGAA KHALSA ,AAKI RAHE NAA KOE . DHAN BHAAG SANGAT JINA NU DARSHAN DIDARE HOEY .JUST WAIT FOR WHILE WHEN WORLD POPULATION REACHED 8.5 BILLON 6 BILLON WILL BE VANISHED FROM THIS PLANET AND SATGURU G BRING SATYUGAA (10,000 YEARS) IN KALYUGAA .
NAAM JAPO, VANDH CCHAKKO TEY KIRAT KARO
WGKK ,WGKF
Saadh sangat g , Satguru Guru Granth Sahib g tey puran bharosa rakho g . Dasam Pathshah g dey bachna anusaar .SARI DUNIYAA KHUAAR HO RAHI HAI . JIS PRKAAR MACCHI (FISH) PATHAR CHAT KAY MURDI HAI THIK USI PRKAAR IS DUNIYA NEY SAHIB SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB G DI SHARAN VICH AAVEGI .(KHUAAR HOYE SAB MILAHANGEY , BACHHE SHARAN JO HOYE . RAAJ KAREGAA KHALSA ,AAKI RAHE NAA KOE . DHAN BHAAG SANGAT JINA NU DARSHAN DIDARE HOEY .JUST WAIT FOR WHILE WHEN WORLD POPULATION REACHED 8.5 BILLON 6 BILLON WILL BE VANISHED FROM THIS PLANET AND SATGURU G BRING SATYUGAA (10,000 YEARS) IN KALYUGAA .
NAAM JAPO, VANDH CCHAKKO TEY KIRAT KARO
WGKK ,WGKF
To start with I say welcome to my Wadde Bhai Paguman Singh Ji alias Hari Singh who now resides in Kiwiland.It was a pity I did not know where he was when I was there in November last year.We grew up almost together although he is older to me.Welcome to the SPN.
However, that said, I have explained like him the process of oxidation that can take place upon any item or material left starved of oxygen, exposed suddenly , esspecially pressed against a metal object and create an unseen impression upon the material; metal can also leave its iron deposits that when come into contact with water will create an impression in the depth of that stamped against it.Simple explanation.I have seen such in my own home at young age, as many from Malaysia will recall, the older generations used to leave their expensive cloths in iron or metal trunks, or called sandooks in Punjabi.Materials when taken out of these sandooks will have such impressions depending what they were heaved against while in there.
But comming back to the issue.My question is simple.WHY Serdang Gurduara , a relatively unknown place even to Sikhs living Malaysia?I have travelled extensively through out Malaysia, but Serdang Lama is not a place I have passed through or been to all these years.
I am intrigued why God/Guru Ji chose that place to show his miracle, when all life around us is his miralce?Ever wondered with the billions of people around us of various shades and colours, no one is the same as the next?That is his miracle.Why show such a small mircale, when he has shown the greatest unmatched mircale of taking Five heads from the down trodden and cowards and turned them into brave warriors capable of fighting mentally against all odds of life?
Has any one else heard...
Agger na hote Guru Gobind Singh Ji,
to sunat hoti sabh ki,
written by a muslim poet on his admission that not only India but the entire humanity east of India would been islamic if the small band of five warriors had not been created, by the single majestic master of miracles Guru Gobind Singh- who while walking the thorny paths of the lakhi jungles refers to that as the bed of roses; and says cry not what if four are martyred, thousands of my sons will live, and ensure jhoolte rahen Nishan panth maharaj ke throughout the world.That was his miracle- I would call a true miracle.From Zero, he created fIve , from Five arose the thousands and millions that were to be the changing factors of the history of a whole sub continent.That is the miracle we should be looking to and at.But many dont know of that miracle and the miraclous content of the Guru Granth sahib, but are willing to challenge that even in the presence of Guru Granth sahib and are prepared to say they saw a greater miracle happening upon the Guru Granth sahib?How can that be greater then the Guru Ji?
khopri after khopri was taken off their heads, they still uttered waheguru satnam,Banda singh bahadur had his sons' flesh put into his mouth and still uttered waheguru satnam and then millions more follwed simply to say satnam waheguru to their last ...was that not a miraclous journey?One Jesus Christ is said to have martyred died for the entire humanity, in Sikhism every one willingly sacrified for the entire universe and humanity...was that not a miracle...that our Sikhs did not allow the line of martyship to break down ..unlike jesus after him no one kept that....line going ?The Sikhs performed miracle, true miracles true to their salt and grit ...that is the miracles we should thrive upon ...not ...magical fantasicals ones...
If Guru Ji really intended a miracle, it that would been comparable to the taking of the Five heads and it would have been right in the centre of the Sikh panth somehwere where the whole world would have witnessed...not far away Serdang corner...
Something about that story that did not make sense is what one of the ladies says..she buys a garland of flowers to take to the Gurduara, but she is not dressed civilly to enter the Gurduara and comes away....if I know I am not dressed properly, would I still go the Gurduara and then come back ...???I know what I call such people, but perhaps I should not...
The miracle that we should seek is joining in the sangat to the Guru Granth sahib, creating unity in the Sikh panth and freeing it from derawad and sadhs and sants and empowering it to rise above the boundaries of India, not confined to some small forsaken state of khalistan.
That would be a miracle when the whole of Sikh jagat is enjoined in Unity and in one unison voice says, We are Sikhs of the Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib- indeed that would be the greatest miracle.A miracle worth working for and believing in ....not magical miracles...
By the way, any follow up news on what happened to this miracle story.If indeed it was miracle the khanda would have stayed PUT ...to this day..is it still there on the rumalla, as I understand it would wither away after few days or hours or with washing ...there is a lot silence since then ...is that on purpose or ....the miracle is no longer there now?
However as an after thought, if indeed those who beleive it was a miracle...how many of those have taken to take amrit now?What more convincing do you need. another miracle?Your taking amrit would be the miracle .....but the same ladies as I understand have short cut hairs...still.So what is miraclous about this or your commitent to this miracle?
ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.
Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,
London & Kuala Lumpur
Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe
swfw swrw ieiqhws dsqwr dw ey, vYrI sdw swnMU,vMgwrdy rhy
Gurcharan Singh Kulim,
Chigwell
However, that said, I have explained like him the process of oxidation that can take place upon any item or material left starved of oxygen, exposed suddenly , esspecially pressed against a metal object and create an unseen impression upon the material; metal can also leave its iron deposits that when come into contact with water will create an impression in the depth of that stamped against it.Simple explanation.I have seen such in my own home at young age, as many from Malaysia will recall, the older generations used to leave their expensive cloths in iron or metal trunks, or called sandooks in Punjabi.Materials when taken out of these sandooks will have such impressions depending what they were heaved against while in there.
But comming back to the issue.My question is simple.WHY Serdang Gurduara , a relatively unknown place even to Sikhs living Malaysia?I have travelled extensively through out Malaysia, but Serdang Lama is not a place I have passed through or been to all these years.
I am intrigued why God/Guru Ji chose that place to show his miracle, when all life around us is his miralce?Ever wondered with the billions of people around us of various shades and colours, no one is the same as the next?That is his miracle.Why show such a small mircale, when he has shown the greatest unmatched mircale of taking Five heads from the down trodden and cowards and turned them into brave warriors capable of fighting mentally against all odds of life?
Has any one else heard...
Agger na hote Guru Gobind Singh Ji,
to sunat hoti sabh ki,
written by a muslim poet on his admission that not only India but the entire humanity east of India would been islamic if the small band of five warriors had not been created, by the single majestic master of miracles Guru Gobind Singh- who while walking the thorny paths of the lakhi jungles refers to that as the bed of roses; and says cry not what if four are martyred, thousands of my sons will live, and ensure jhoolte rahen Nishan panth maharaj ke throughout the world.That was his miracle- I would call a true miracle.From Zero, he created fIve , from Five arose the thousands and millions that were to be the changing factors of the history of a whole sub continent.That is the miracle we should be looking to and at.But many dont know of that miracle and the miraclous content of the Guru Granth sahib, but are willing to challenge that even in the presence of Guru Granth sahib and are prepared to say they saw a greater miracle happening upon the Guru Granth sahib?How can that be greater then the Guru Ji?
khopri after khopri was taken off their heads, they still uttered waheguru satnam,Banda singh bahadur had his sons' flesh put into his mouth and still uttered waheguru satnam and then millions more follwed simply to say satnam waheguru to their last ...was that not a miraclous journey?One Jesus Christ is said to have martyred died for the entire humanity, in Sikhism every one willingly sacrified for the entire universe and humanity...was that not a miracle...that our Sikhs did not allow the line of martyship to break down ..unlike jesus after him no one kept that....line going ?The Sikhs performed miracle, true miracles true to their salt and grit ...that is the miracles we should thrive upon ...not ...magical fantasicals ones...
If Guru Ji really intended a miracle, it that would been comparable to the taking of the Five heads and it would have been right in the centre of the Sikh panth somehwere where the whole world would have witnessed...not far away Serdang corner...
Something about that story that did not make sense is what one of the ladies says..she buys a garland of flowers to take to the Gurduara, but she is not dressed civilly to enter the Gurduara and comes away....if I know I am not dressed properly, would I still go the Gurduara and then come back ...???I know what I call such people, but perhaps I should not...
The miracle that we should seek is joining in the sangat to the Guru Granth sahib, creating unity in the Sikh panth and freeing it from derawad and sadhs and sants and empowering it to rise above the boundaries of India, not confined to some small forsaken state of khalistan.
That would be a miracle when the whole of Sikh jagat is enjoined in Unity and in one unison voice says, We are Sikhs of the Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib- indeed that would be the greatest miracle.A miracle worth working for and believing in ....not magical miracles...
By the way, any follow up news on what happened to this miracle story.If indeed it was miracle the khanda would have stayed PUT ...to this day..is it still there on the rumalla, as I understand it would wither away after few days or hours or with washing ...there is a lot silence since then ...is that on purpose or ....the miracle is no longer there now?
However as an after thought, if indeed those who beleive it was a miracle...how many of those have taken to take amrit now?What more convincing do you need. another miracle?Your taking amrit would be the miracle .....but the same ladies as I understand have short cut hairs...still.So what is miraclous about this or your commitent to this miracle?
ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.
Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,
London & Kuala Lumpur
Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe
swfw swrw ieiqhws dsqwr dw ey, vYrI sdw swnMU,vMgwrdy rhy
Gurcharan Singh Kulim,
Chigwell
Chaan Ji wrote:
<><><><><><><><><><>But comming back to the issue.My question is simple.WHY Serdang Gurduara , a relatively unknown place even to Sikhs living Malaysia?I have travelled extensively through out Malaysia, but Serdang Lama is not a place I have passed through or been to all these years.><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Well Serdang Lama used to be a Bastion of SRM back in the 70's...then about 20 years ago new Granthi came in and stayed over along period..7 ++ years...in the beginning he was also a Rock Solid SRM guy...( i know because i used to meet him at KL Akhand paaths seminars jordmelas and at Sabha House..) BUT slowly and unperceptibly he got pulled aside from SRM..and began to give the ladies various "shabads" as cures for this and that..puchhan etc..and the maya began rolling in..(again I know becasue my neighbours in Batu caves used to go there for rehrass/diwan miles away....when the SELAYANG GURDWARA rehrass diwan etc was just 500 metres away !! REGULARLY week in and week out..) That Granthi is now a BABA in hs own right and has his own DERA in KL....a very established one and highly successful !!
ALL the "miracle" Gurdwaras are small pendu ones..mantin..pusing..kamunting..etc etc are NOT Major Gurdwaras at all. Many others that have old wells etc in their compounds are also trying to jump abroad the bandwagon..holy waters, amrit etc..there are some in the Ipoh area...and other hilly areas where water in wells is still relatively high table. I visited one such..it had a notice board stating that bathers with the Holy water from the Holy well are advised to NOT USE and shampoos/soaps. (apparently holy water and shampoos dont mix !)Somehow water has aspecial connection to holiness..IF its too expensive to build a sarovar..a well comes in handy....esp if its ancient to boot.
IN KL we have a few established BABAS..and some aspiring ones slowly picking up steam..some are old school types from India and others are highly educated local products...ALL lean on SGGS for "support" as they really DONT have a self created resource for all their cures/dhaggehs and puchhans etc. GURBANI is always made use (misuse) of....even IF not so openly !! Shows the INSECURITY of our people..manoball is daavna dol..shaky and Faith in SGGs is superficial..hence the fixation with the STAIN.
<><><><><><><><><><>But comming back to the issue.My question is simple.WHY Serdang Gurduara , a relatively unknown place even to Sikhs living Malaysia?I have travelled extensively through out Malaysia, but Serdang Lama is not a place I have passed through or been to all these years.><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Well Serdang Lama used to be a Bastion of SRM back in the 70's...then about 20 years ago new Granthi came in and stayed over along period..7 ++ years...in the beginning he was also a Rock Solid SRM guy...( i know because i used to meet him at KL Akhand paaths seminars jordmelas and at Sabha House..) BUT slowly and unperceptibly he got pulled aside from SRM..and began to give the ladies various "shabads" as cures for this and that..puchhan etc..and the maya began rolling in..(again I know becasue my neighbours in Batu caves used to go there for rehrass/diwan miles away....when the SELAYANG GURDWARA rehrass diwan etc was just 500 metres away !! REGULARLY week in and week out..) That Granthi is now a BABA in hs own right and has his own DERA in KL....a very established one and highly successful !!
ALL the "miracle" Gurdwaras are small pendu ones..mantin..pusing..kamunting..etc etc are NOT Major Gurdwaras at all. Many others that have old wells etc in their compounds are also trying to jump abroad the bandwagon..holy waters, amrit etc..there are some in the Ipoh area...and other hilly areas where water in wells is still relatively high table. I visited one such..it had a notice board stating that bathers with the Holy water from the Holy well are advised to NOT USE and shampoos/soaps. (apparently holy water and shampoos dont mix !)Somehow water has aspecial connection to holiness..IF its too expensive to build a sarovar..a well comes in handy....esp if its ancient to boot.
IN KL we have a few established BABAS..and some aspiring ones slowly picking up steam..some are old school types from India and others are highly educated local products...ALL lean on SGGS for "support" as they really DONT have a self created resource for all their cures/dhaggehs and puchhans etc. GURBANI is always made use (misuse) of....even IF not so openly !! Shows the INSECURITY of our people..manoball is daavna dol..shaky and Faith in SGGs is superficial..hence the fixation with the STAIN.
I don't believe in miracles, and as for Hemkund, I am sceptical about that too. I guess I am not a worthy enough Sikh.icecreammunda
Hemkunt sahib is the result of Sikhs imagination, and the desire for search some launched.It is not for sure the place or exactly a place related to Sikh Guru.It is ASSUMED to be the place by some.Please read the below on origins of hemkunt.
Ritual pilgrimage has no place in Sikhi as well...but ..there those who some mothers have had...and the it relates back to the gullible leading the gullible ....miracles, babas, mantra from shabds, or dhoov or dhage ect.....I have a hillarious story to share , from Malaysia about one baba situated in the hills around Ipoh.It goes back when I was uneducated, ignorant and just about to start learning about Sikhi....it was a fine example of the blind leading the blind...wah wah baba ji ....in the end he got even beaten up...because the mantra he gave someone not only did not work but the situation got worse and the disatisfied person came back and gave that baba ji a good hiding ...baba was not even able to save himself let alone save the stupid people falling for such idiotic stories and baba jis!!
http://www.sikhnet.com/oldsikhnet/HemkuntSahib/myth.htm
ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.
Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,
London & Kuala Lumpur
Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe
swfw swrw ieiqhws dsqwr dw ey, vYrI sdw swnMU,vMgwrdy rhy
Ritual pilgrimage has no place in Sikhi as well...but ..there those who some mothers have had...and the it relates back to the gullible leading the gullible ....miracles, babas, mantra from shabds, or dhoov or dhage ect.....I have a hillarious story to share , from Malaysia about one baba situated in the hills around Ipoh.It goes back when I was uneducated, ignorant and just about to start learning about Sikhi....it was a fine example of the blind leading the blind...wah wah baba ji ....in the end he got even beaten up...because the mantra he gave someone not only did not work but the situation got worse and the disatisfied person came back and gave that baba ji a good hiding ...baba was not even able to save himself let alone save the stupid people falling for such idiotic stories and baba jis!!
http://www.sikhnet.com/oldsikhnet/HemkuntSahib/myth.htm
ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.
Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,
London & Kuala Lumpur
Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe
swfw swrw ieiqhws dsqwr dw ey, vYrI sdw swnMU,vMgwrdy rhy
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whats the miracle at Humkunt * ( btw just for info..HemkunT with T at the end is a Mountain and same word ends with D is a Stove HemkunD) ?? I am at a loss too..???
Some Sikh babas derawadees etc offer these services too...albeit privately..only at kamunting is it openly practised...
Is this next on the Miracle Gurdwara menu ?? Notice the article doesnt mention SIKHISM..but it may real soon....just as miracle rumallah made us grab headlines..
http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/24exorcisma/Article/
Is this next on the Miracle Gurdwara menu ?? Notice the article doesnt mention SIKHISM..but it may real soon....just as miracle rumallah made us grab headlines..
http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/24exorcisma/Article/
I ask again. What the heck are we talking about? What is a MIRACLE? Once we've cleared that up, I can say whether I believe in them or not. japposatnamwaheguru:
Without a good definition anything can be classified as a miracle. Charming, but hardly useful.
YouTube - A Hundred Million Miracles
- Dec 21, 2010
- 3,384
- 5,689
Mai Harinder Kaur ji my definition and test of a miracle from a Sikhism perspective is very simple,
- An incident that even one of the Sikhs in the world considers not to be a miracle is not a miracle
- As a result I do not forecast any great chances of miracles in the present and future or miracles of the past
- Anything strange that one or many don't understand, is peculiar to one or many doesn't make it a miracle
- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji repeats to emphasize to its readers to not try to understand everything as creation is infinite
- This simple lack of understanding and the infiniteness of knowing, does not make a basis for classifying things, incidents and situations as miracles
A Sikh who follows every Word of Guru truly, the Living, Walking Khalsa is the only miracle we know. And the only miracle we want!
A miracle is when the impossible is believed happens.It’s when doctors have given up on a sick child and for no scientific reason, that child gets well or when you’re down to your last dollar, have piles of bills to be paid, and a check arrives in the mail from some unknown source. It can also a hurricane comes through a town and your house is left standing with desolation all around it.
Miracles take place everyday. Sometimes they’re very subtle and quiet, sweeping in like a touch on the face. Other times, it’s very evident and public. It doesn’t matter who you are, miracles can happen to anyone; if one cannot explain the course of nature or its secret of happening.Why do miracles take place? Some claim that it may be that God wants your attention!
However when you believe in God, you gain an awareness of Him. You see everything in a new light. He shows His great power through the trials and tribulations of life, through nature and science.That itself is a miracle, but few take noe of that.That is taken for granted. God is in the impossible business. What is a miracle? Someone once said, “Coincidence is when God wants to remain anonymous.” Well, miracles are when God reveals Himself. All glory and honor and praise belong to Him. Without Him there would be no miracles!
Miracles, today, are declared because of (1) the remission of an illness (2) the face of Jesus on a piece of toast and (3) "weeping statues" positioned under a leaky roof...or (4)finally the image of a khanda that seems to have appeared on a piece of cloth used to cover the Guru Granth sahib; after three elements meet, or an element exposed to another after a period of absence from it. There has not been one instance of what everyone would call a genuine miracle eg the crippled walking, the blind seeing, the dead getting up and asking for a coffee.
And interestingly, the so-called miracles always concern the human, not other species or phenomena. Why doesn't God reveal himself by making water run uphill? Something that can be experienced and witnessed? The concept of "miracle" is distinctly human, born of ignorance and refusal to engage in the real world. [/B]
In truth , the word miracle is most often used as a metaphor .However , different religions understand it differently.For the Christians, a miracle contains the gift of grace;and forgiveness is the home of miracles. Miracles fall like drops of healing rain from heaven on a dry and dusty world, where starved and thirsty creatures come to die.
But for a Sikh, the whole creation of life is a miracle of God.The truth is a miracle, the miraclous concept of unparralled shahidi and living to the core of the Gurus direction is a miracle.This is the real life miracle; that is continous and real.Sikhism does not approve of once a while miracles as understood by the muslims and the christians.Therefore any Sikh trying to understand miracle through that concept is not true to his or her Gurus direction and the Guru Granth sahib.
But why then miracles have such a large space in the Sikh mind and understanding?Because we have stories that Guru Nanak Ji went to Mecca and the ka'aba rotated each time the Gurus feet were turned into another direction.
We also have the story, that Guru Nanak Ji stopped the rock that Wali Kandhari pushed onto him, his hand print still remains on the rock, to prove the point and incident.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji removed fresh water with his arrow at a gurudwara Nagina Ghat in Nanded.
Guru Nanak Ji turned the bitter 'rithas' sweet for Bhai Mardana Ji.
These are only some of the "miracles" that Sikhs believe in, but hey, are they really miracles or true life incidents that were possible within the embodiments of the Gurus powers?I say they were true life incidents, not miracles at all.but who then claimed they were miracles?The blind, the mahants in control of our Gurduara for many generations turned us blind as well.
While we believe the above as miracles we forget the real miracles of Sikhi....Gurbani itself is a miracle. Gurus are a miracles. Guru ke sikh are miracles. Guru ke Panj piyare are miracles. 1699 Vaisakhi is a miracle. Baba Deep Singh ji fought with severe wound to almost cut off head, long after he was wounded and to the opoint of choice.
Bhai mati daas ji did jap ji sahib while getting sawed vertically in half. Bhai Taru Singh stayed alive 22 days after getting scalp removed. Baba Mani Singh ji did sukhmani sahib while getting cut into pieces. Guru Ke [Challi ]40 singhs at Chamkaur sahib fought against 2,200,000.
In recent times the battle of Saragarhi is a miracle when 22 Sikhs took on the might of the 20,000 waziris tribesmen ...and countless other miracles in the Sikh history contimnue .The count would be unending.
Real Miracle is called kautak in Punjabi.God himself is a Kautak.His entire rachna [creation] is a wholesome kautak.
However, when such" miracles" as the khanda happen, we must understand that people are mistake that for karamaat- karamaat means magical powers like the ridh sidh only a sudden creation of distraction ...once a while.
I believe if we can make Sikhs understand the difference between the concept of karamaat and kautak, perhaps Sikhs will understand the miracle of khanda has no value as it is only a karamaat and not the true mircale as kautak ..of the Creator; as such has no place in Sikhi.
According to the Gurbani the Sikhs call miracles and occult powers useless[karamat] and fruitless because they lead one away from God. As such the Sikhs have been strictly warned not to show any miracles and not to hanker after supernatural powers.
All that Sikhs ask for is the true name of the Creator and no miracle is considered greater than just remembering God and controlling one's mind in such a way as to feel satisfied. "To hanker after supernatural powers" says Guru Nanak "is pandering to low taste." When Guru Tegh Bahadur was asked to show miracles he only smiled and repeated the following hymns of Guru Ram Das:- "The desire to perform miracles is worldly and created ego, It is an obstacle in the way of repeating Lord's name that resides in my heart." The Guru did not show any miracles and only accepted to be beheaded. When Ram Rai, the son of the Guru Har Gobind, showed some miracles to Emperor Arungzeb at Delhi the Guru was extremely angry and refused to see his son for the whole of his life. In spite of the latter words repeated applications the Guru remained adamant and excommunicated his son. Baba Gurditta was so condemned at having shown a miracle that he dared not come before the Guru. Guru Nanak was asked to perform miracles when he visited the Sikhs and his reply was:- "I can do nothing against the laws of nature It is only He who can perform a miracle. For me the True Name is the miracle of miracles I know no other miracle." The Gurus never performed miracles to convince others of their spiritual superiority or occult powers and only said, "Miracles can delude only the fools."
As Emerson puts it: "Self-sacrifice is the real miracle out of which all the reported miracles flow."
Why were Ram Rai and his followers ostracised from the Sikh Panth by the Gurus, because he indulged in miracles.Therefore miracles have no place in the Sikh doctorine.
According to Sikhism, occult powers come naturally through concentration on The Nam. Miracles should not be performed at the bidding of or to prove the greatness of one's religion or to confirm the faith of people in a spiritual guide. Guru Ram Daas Ji says: "The desire to perform miracles is a worldly attachment and is an obstacle in the way of The Nam residing in our hearts."
So Khalsa ji with this little understanding I share with those committed to the panth and the Sikh Gurus to disassociate themselves from such worldy miracles.
The only true miracle is the NAM of Waheguru.
Miracles take place everyday. Sometimes they’re very subtle and quiet, sweeping in like a touch on the face. Other times, it’s very evident and public. It doesn’t matter who you are, miracles can happen to anyone; if one cannot explain the course of nature or its secret of happening.Why do miracles take place? Some claim that it may be that God wants your attention!
However when you believe in God, you gain an awareness of Him. You see everything in a new light. He shows His great power through the trials and tribulations of life, through nature and science.That itself is a miracle, but few take noe of that.That is taken for granted. God is in the impossible business. What is a miracle? Someone once said, “Coincidence is when God wants to remain anonymous.” Well, miracles are when God reveals Himself. All glory and honor and praise belong to Him. Without Him there would be no miracles!
Miracles, today, are declared because of (1) the remission of an illness (2) the face of Jesus on a piece of toast and (3) "weeping statues" positioned under a leaky roof...or (4)finally the image of a khanda that seems to have appeared on a piece of cloth used to cover the Guru Granth sahib; after three elements meet, or an element exposed to another after a period of absence from it. There has not been one instance of what everyone would call a genuine miracle eg the crippled walking, the blind seeing, the dead getting up and asking for a coffee.
And interestingly, the so-called miracles always concern the human, not other species or phenomena. Why doesn't God reveal himself by making water run uphill? Something that can be experienced and witnessed? The concept of "miracle" is distinctly human, born of ignorance and refusal to engage in the real world. [/B]
In truth , the word miracle is most often used as a metaphor .However , different religions understand it differently.For the Christians, a miracle contains the gift of grace;and forgiveness is the home of miracles. Miracles fall like drops of healing rain from heaven on a dry and dusty world, where starved and thirsty creatures come to die.
But for a Sikh, the whole creation of life is a miracle of God.The truth is a miracle, the miraclous concept of unparralled shahidi and living to the core of the Gurus direction is a miracle.This is the real life miracle; that is continous and real.Sikhism does not approve of once a while miracles as understood by the muslims and the christians.Therefore any Sikh trying to understand miracle through that concept is not true to his or her Gurus direction and the Guru Granth sahib.
But why then miracles have such a large space in the Sikh mind and understanding?Because we have stories that Guru Nanak Ji went to Mecca and the ka'aba rotated each time the Gurus feet were turned into another direction.
We also have the story, that Guru Nanak Ji stopped the rock that Wali Kandhari pushed onto him, his hand print still remains on the rock, to prove the point and incident.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji removed fresh water with his arrow at a gurudwara Nagina Ghat in Nanded.
Guru Nanak Ji turned the bitter 'rithas' sweet for Bhai Mardana Ji.
These are only some of the "miracles" that Sikhs believe in, but hey, are they really miracles or true life incidents that were possible within the embodiments of the Gurus powers?I say they were true life incidents, not miracles at all.but who then claimed they were miracles?The blind, the mahants in control of our Gurduara for many generations turned us blind as well.
While we believe the above as miracles we forget the real miracles of Sikhi....Gurbani itself is a miracle. Gurus are a miracles. Guru ke sikh are miracles. Guru ke Panj piyare are miracles. 1699 Vaisakhi is a miracle. Baba Deep Singh ji fought with severe wound to almost cut off head, long after he was wounded and to the opoint of choice.
Bhai mati daas ji did jap ji sahib while getting sawed vertically in half. Bhai Taru Singh stayed alive 22 days after getting scalp removed. Baba Mani Singh ji did sukhmani sahib while getting cut into pieces. Guru Ke [Challi ]40 singhs at Chamkaur sahib fought against 2,200,000.
In recent times the battle of Saragarhi is a miracle when 22 Sikhs took on the might of the 20,000 waziris tribesmen ...and countless other miracles in the Sikh history contimnue .The count would be unending.
Real Miracle is called kautak in Punjabi.God himself is a Kautak.His entire rachna [creation] is a wholesome kautak.
However, when such" miracles" as the khanda happen, we must understand that people are mistake that for karamaat- karamaat means magical powers like the ridh sidh only a sudden creation of distraction ...once a while.
I believe if we can make Sikhs understand the difference between the concept of karamaat and kautak, perhaps Sikhs will understand the miracle of khanda has no value as it is only a karamaat and not the true mircale as kautak ..of the Creator; as such has no place in Sikhi.
According to the Gurbani the Sikhs call miracles and occult powers useless[karamat] and fruitless because they lead one away from God. As such the Sikhs have been strictly warned not to show any miracles and not to hanker after supernatural powers.
All that Sikhs ask for is the true name of the Creator and no miracle is considered greater than just remembering God and controlling one's mind in such a way as to feel satisfied. "To hanker after supernatural powers" says Guru Nanak "is pandering to low taste." When Guru Tegh Bahadur was asked to show miracles he only smiled and repeated the following hymns of Guru Ram Das:- "The desire to perform miracles is worldly and created ego, It is an obstacle in the way of repeating Lord's name that resides in my heart." The Guru did not show any miracles and only accepted to be beheaded. When Ram Rai, the son of the Guru Har Gobind, showed some miracles to Emperor Arungzeb at Delhi the Guru was extremely angry and refused to see his son for the whole of his life. In spite of the latter words repeated applications the Guru remained adamant and excommunicated his son. Baba Gurditta was so condemned at having shown a miracle that he dared not come before the Guru. Guru Nanak was asked to perform miracles when he visited the Sikhs and his reply was:- "I can do nothing against the laws of nature It is only He who can perform a miracle. For me the True Name is the miracle of miracles I know no other miracle." The Gurus never performed miracles to convince others of their spiritual superiority or occult powers and only said, "Miracles can delude only the fools."
As Emerson puts it: "Self-sacrifice is the real miracle out of which all the reported miracles flow."
Why were Ram Rai and his followers ostracised from the Sikh Panth by the Gurus, because he indulged in miracles.Therefore miracles have no place in the Sikh doctorine.
According to Sikhism, occult powers come naturally through concentration on The Nam. Miracles should not be performed at the bidding of or to prove the greatness of one's religion or to confirm the faith of people in a spiritual guide. Guru Ram Daas Ji says: "The desire to perform miracles is a worldly attachment and is an obstacle in the way of The Nam residing in our hearts."
So Khalsa ji with this little understanding I share with those committed to the panth and the Sikh Gurus to disassociate themselves from such worldy miracles.
The only true miracle is the NAM of Waheguru.
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I was thinking the other day that people send out satellites and spaceships to try and peek what is beyond the Solar System. And we just need to repeat Naam, Waheguru, to feel the waves of the whole Universe. I can't describe it properly for I am not so receptive yet. But am trying 
- Dec 21, 2010
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Kanwaljit.Singh ji I want a little clarification about your wording as noted in the quoted text,
May I suggest to spnadmin ji that we may want to start a new thread as the "rumala thingy" is starting to fade in the background and a new concept of a fundamental one and only miracle for Sikhism has come to focus as I have feebly attempted to describe above.
Sat Sri Akal.
May I suggest to spnadmin ji that we may want to start a new thread as the "rumala thingy" is starting to fade in the background and a new concept of a fundamental one and only miracle for Sikhism has come to focus as I have feebly attempted to describe above.
Sat Sri Akal.
- Dec 21, 2010
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Hope that is what you were trying to describe, if it helps.I was thinking the other day that people send out satellites and spaceships to try and peek what is beyond the Solar System.
And we just need to repeat Naam, Waheguru, to feel the waves of the whole Universe.
I can't describe it properly for I am not so receptive yet. But am trying
- If you do you are blessed. It has been stated by some as
- Punjabi, "Naam khumari Nanakah, charih raveh din raat"
- That is we request as,
- "Guru Nanak, may I be intoxicated with the understanding of living in consonance with creation day and night"
- icecreammunda icecreamkudi japposatnamwaheguru:
mundahug kudihug
Sat Sri Akal.
Not time yet to close/split the thread. But I will keep an eye on things. We do have other threads on miracles in Sikhi. Maybe they need some freshening up.
p/s I am thinking that 50 percent of the topic is about the rumalla. But the other 50 percent is about gullibility. That probably explains why I am reluctant to split the thread or close it.
p/s I am thinking that 50 percent of the topic is about the rumalla. But the other 50 percent is about gullibility. That probably explains why I am reluctant to split the thread or close it.
- Nov 5, 2010
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Sat sri akaal,
"ignorance" causes "miracles"
huge effort is required to eradicate "ignorance"
one should put his energy on
health
"education"
food clothing shelter
there shall be concern about
preaching centres
"gurudwara's"
and
"preacher's" there education and practise
in punjab
in many gurudwara's
they don't know even proper spell of some words of "guru's bani"
and they are there as preacher's
or
granthi's
more centres cause more demand for preachers
reducing the quality of preacher's
it's obvious
organisation's which are working for the cause
one should contribute generously
other wise dera's no one can not stop
"ignorance" is "miracle"
intellectual's shall contribute to the cause,
"criticism"
is "negative" without positive direction
"guru's bani" have serious concern about crticism,
as it divides.
Reference are available
"imbibe" guru's bani in actions
"criticism" is "postive" when done on face with the right direction shown
no way guru's have done criticism on back face,
guru's have shown the right path having the concern, not just criticising
have concern for all
preached by "guru's"
i wish the right path is shown to the concerned
"ignorance" causes "miracles"
huge effort is required to eradicate "ignorance"
one should put his energy on
health
"education"
food clothing shelter
there shall be concern about
preaching centres
"gurudwara's"
and
"preacher's" there education and practise
in punjab
in many gurudwara's
they don't know even proper spell of some words of "guru's bani"
and they are there as preacher's
or
granthi's
more centres cause more demand for preachers
reducing the quality of preacher's
it's obvious
organisation's which are working for the cause
one should contribute generously
other wise dera's no one can not stop
"ignorance" is "miracle"
intellectual's shall contribute to the cause,
"criticism"
is "negative" without positive direction
"guru's bani" have serious concern about crticism,
as it divides.
Reference are available
"imbibe" guru's bani in actions
"criticism" is "postive" when done on face with the right direction shown
no way guru's have done criticism on back face,
guru's have shown the right path having the concern, not just criticising
have concern for all
preached by "guru's"
i wish the right path is shown to the concerned
Come on guys can there be a bigger miracle than Jackals becoming Lions?:interestedkudi:
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