☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Guru Granth Sahib
Jup Banee
Jap Ji Sahib-Naad Translation
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 74759" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>Back veer ji</p><p></p><p>I'll start first with this. <span style="color: Sienna"><span style="color: DimGray">The translation we are talking about comes from Espanola New Mexico, the home of Ashram Guru Ram Das and the headquarters of many 3HO based organizations (e.g., Sikhnet to name one). </span></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><span style="color: DimGray"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><span style="color: DimGray">The overall difficulty of doing a Gurmukhi to English translation is described by Ek Ong Kaar Kaur Khalsa, a respected member of SPN , also living in Espanola New Mexico, and also a 3HO who has completed several translations of Gurbani. Here is what she says, and then I will go back to the original issue raised about Jap (u) ji. She talks about getting ready to translate Anand Sahib. </span><em></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">So to translate the <em>Anand Sahib</em> was a step more than simply text, subtext and spiritual experience. To translate the <em>Anand Sahib</em> was to attempt to understand those terms in the context of the map of reality the Guru was describing. The words: <em>Anand, Bani, Guru, Shabad, Sach, Amrit, Naam, Har, Ananhat</em>, and others. What did they mean – not in English equivalents – but in relationship with each other? What world, by playing together, where they describing? Because if you just look at English equivalents, you loose the way those words are working together and defining each other. And this was the problem translating the <em>Anand Sahib</em>. The map of reality created by the English language and the map of reality created by Gurbani are not the same map.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">So what sources did I draw on to try to discover and understand this map?</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Dictionaries – incomplete, yes, but still they gave me an initial direction. </span></em></span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Lectures by the Siri Singh Sahib</span></em></span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Discussions with Dr. Balkar Singh</span></em></span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">One brief and beautiful meeting with the late Bhai Avtar Singh. Me, asking questions through his son, Bhai Kultar Singh, trying to bridge generations and cultures, languages and spiritual experience. </span></em></span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">As always, looking at it from the inside through meditation</span></em></span></li> </ul><p><span style="color: Sienna"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Is the map complete? No. It’s just begun. But what’s important is that this translation of the <em>Anand Sahib</em> is not about translating a word of Gurmukhi into a word of English or even a line of Gurmukhi into a few lines of English. It’s an attempt to understand that underlying map of reality indicated by Gurbani and communicate it in proportional relationship through the English language.</span></em></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Sienna"><a href="http://ekongkaar.blogspot.com/2007/01/anand-sahib-maps-of-reality-in.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Here is the entire essay. </span></a></span></p><p></p><p>Ek Ong Kaar ji has translated Anand Sahib -- An example of the first few lines. It is very different from other English translations. </p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">There is a state of consciousness</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Where every action</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Reflects</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">The reality of the soul.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Oh mother -</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">This consciousness</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Is with me now</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">For I have found</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">The Teacher of Truth</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Whose wisdom awakens me</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">To my own Infinite Reality.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">I have found</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">The Teacher of Truth</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Whose wisdom takes me</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">From the darkness of my own</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Ignorance and ego</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">To the light</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'">Of my Inner Divinity.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"><em><span style="font-family: 'verdana'"></span></em></span>Mukhia Singh Sahib Guruka Singh Khalsa are also part of the Espanola New Mexico 3HO community. Gurukha ji has done several translations of the daily Hukamanama for Sikhnet when Sukha Singh Akaali has had to travel. Gurukha ji will say at times "I don't know what is going to come out of my mouth" meaning that he too is looking for the glimmer or grasp of a divine map that will connect the original text of Gurbani onto the English language. This is how the naad fits in to their translation of Jap(u)ji "<em>The Words of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. These Words are expressed in Naad Yoga, the Technology of the Sound Current. When we speak and sing the Words of the Gurus, we may experience the elevation of consciousness which the technology of Naad Yoga induces. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."</em> <a href="http://ttp://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/sikhism.nsf/d9c75ce4db27be328725639a0063aecc/7c15398d91c0a2d8872565b7007b338e%21OpenDocument" target="_blank">Gurbani</a> <span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">T<em>he last sentence in the paragraph is not consistent with Sikh understanding of Word or Shabad, in my opinion, for what it is worth. </em></span></p><p></p><p>There is always the question of what gets lost in translation. That never goes away. But sometimes "what gets lost" is not a <strong>mistake or inaccuracy</strong>. Aman ji's translation worked for me. I am always wondering -- what is Guruji getting at. Then I try to go back and understand the Gurmukhi in relation to the English words. An even bigger loss in translation, bigger than the meaning given to words, is the loss of the poetic form of the shabads. That is another reason to study a shabad in Gurmukhi and try to hear it. Sometimes the sound patterns are simply magical.</p><p></p><p>Please forgive me for talking on and on about this. Jasleen ji, it is your turn now. What is your reaction to all of this?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 74759, member: 35"] Back veer ji I'll start first with this. [COLOR=Sienna][COLOR=DimGray]The translation we are talking about comes from Espanola New Mexico, the home of Ashram Guru Ram Das and the headquarters of many 3HO based organizations (e.g., Sikhnet to name one). The overall difficulty of doing a Gurmukhi to English translation is described by Ek Ong Kaar Kaur Khalsa, a respected member of SPN , also living in Espanola New Mexico, and also a 3HO who has completed several translations of Gurbani. Here is what she says, and then I will go back to the original issue raised about Jap (u) ji. She talks about getting ready to translate Anand Sahib. [/COLOR][I] [FONT=verdana]So to translate the [I]Anand Sahib[/I] was a step more than simply text, subtext and spiritual experience. To translate the [I]Anand Sahib[/I] was to attempt to understand those terms in the context of the map of reality the Guru was describing. The words: [I]Anand, Bani, Guru, Shabad, Sach, Amrit, Naam, Har, Ananhat[/I], and others. What did they mean – not in English equivalents – but in relationship with each other? What world, by playing together, where they describing? Because if you just look at English equivalents, you loose the way those words are working together and defining each other. And this was the problem translating the [I]Anand Sahib[/I]. The map of reality created by the English language and the map of reality created by Gurbani are not the same map. So what sources did I draw on to try to discover and understand this map? [/FONT][/I][/COLOR][LIST] [*][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]Dictionaries – incomplete, yes, but still they gave me an initial direction. [/FONT][/I][/COLOR] [*][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]Lectures by the Siri Singh Sahib[/FONT][/I][/COLOR] [*][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]Discussions with Dr. Balkar Singh[/FONT][/I][/COLOR] [*][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]One brief and beautiful meeting with the late Bhai Avtar Singh. Me, asking questions through his son, Bhai Kultar Singh, trying to bridge generations and cultures, languages and spiritual experience. [/FONT][/I][/COLOR] [*][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]As always, looking at it from the inside through meditation[/FONT][/I][/COLOR][/LIST][COLOR=Sienna][I][FONT=verdana]Is the map complete? No. It’s just begun. But what’s important is that this translation of the [I]Anand Sahib[/I] is not about translating a word of Gurmukhi into a word of English or even a line of Gurmukhi into a few lines of English. It’s an attempt to understand that underlying map of reality indicated by Gurbani and communicate it in proportional relationship through the English language.[/FONT][/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=Sienna][URL="http://ekongkaar.blogspot.com/2007/01/anand-sahib-maps-of-reality-in.html"][FONT=verdana]Here is the entire essay. [/FONT][/URL][/COLOR] Ek Ong Kaar ji has translated Anand Sahib -- An example of the first few lines. It is very different from other English translations. [COLOR=DarkGreen][I][FONT=verdana]There is a state of consciousness Where every action Reflects The reality of the soul. Oh mother - This consciousness Is with me now For I have found The Teacher of Truth Whose wisdom awakens me To my own Infinite Reality. I have found The Teacher of Truth Whose wisdom takes me From the darkness of my own Ignorance and ego To the light Of my Inner Divinity. [/FONT][/I][/COLOR]Mukhia Singh Sahib Guruka Singh Khalsa are also part of the Espanola New Mexico 3HO community. Gurukha ji has done several translations of the daily Hukamanama for Sikhnet when Sukha Singh Akaali has had to travel. Gurukha ji will say at times "I don't know what is going to come out of my mouth" meaning that he too is looking for the glimmer or grasp of a divine map that will connect the original text of Gurbani onto the English language. This is how the naad fits in to their translation of Jap(u)ji "[I]The Words of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. These Words are expressed in Naad Yoga, the Technology of the Sound Current. When we speak and sing the Words of the Gurus, we may experience the elevation of consciousness which the technology of Naad Yoga induces. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."[/I] [URL="ttp://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/sikhism.nsf/d9c75ce4db27be328725639a0063aecc/7c15398d91c0a2d8872565b7007b338e%21OpenDocument"]Gurbani[/URL] [SIZE=1] T[I]he last sentence in the paragraph is not consistent with Sikh understanding of Word or Shabad, in my opinion, for what it is worth. [/I][/SIZE] There is always the question of what gets lost in translation. That never goes away. But sometimes "what gets lost" is not a [B]mistake or inaccuracy[/B]. Aman ji's translation worked for me. I am always wondering -- what is Guruji getting at. Then I try to go back and understand the Gurmukhi in relation to the English words. An even bigger loss in translation, bigger than the meaning given to words, is the loss of the poetic form of the shabads. That is another reason to study a shabad in Gurmukhi and try to hear it. Sometimes the sound patterns are simply magical. Please forgive me for talking on and on about this. Jasleen ji, it is your turn now. What is your reaction to all of this? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Guru Granth Sahib
Jup Banee
Jap Ji Sahib-Naad Translation
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top